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The Rafalution

Liverpool Thread 2011/12

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I dont mean to peddle my point but you have claimed it is not about sentimentality here. In reality, if this was anyone but Kenny youd be calling for their head, and rightly so. He may or may not have a decent summer and he may or may not get us challenging for fourth, but the likelihood of both those occurrences is slim enough that he needs to go. Thats ignoring the point that our aim should not just be to challenge for fourth in the coming seasons.

Genuinely not because it is Kenny. I can honestly say in my memory of supporting Liverpool I've only called for one managers head and that was Hodgson. I thought Roy Evans could still have done more. Houllier I thought his time was up but was more than willing to give him another season. Rafa I was completely against him leaving. I feel Kenny needs time. We have played some great stuff at times. We have been very unlucky at times. There is no way that he deserves the sack. He deserves at least one more season. I would say it if we had gotten Martinez last leason or somebody like that. Our football has improved now this season we need to add results to that. Another change will mean another system to adopt for the players and another settling in period. Why not just give Kenny a chance.

I know a lot of people will be holding on to Kenny for sentimental reasons. I don't know how many of you live in the city but he is still worshipped and rightfuly so in my opinion. But I'm not letting that cloud my judgement it is just the way I feel.

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I wonder what you think the difference is between Souness' second season and Dalglish's.

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The difference is Souness got the gig after Liverpool won the title 6 out of the last 10 seasons and finished 2nd in the other 4. Not really comparable.

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Souness crashed to 6th, won a cup, and people began to call for his head on the back of that. Considering the rebuilding that he had to do, and we've got to do, I'm not sure how 8th and a league cup is "needs more time". Both seasons were horrifically under expectations. Anyone advocating Kenny needs more time is doing so on the basis of sentimentality, and not on evidence of the last 11 months.

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I personally have very little faith that KD is the right man for the job as much as I would love to see him be successful. To me he looks like a manager stuck in the 1980s. He simply isn't the man we need considering where the club is these days. If we had unlimited funds like Man City then yeah I think he would do well, but we need a manager who will get the very best out of players, setup the team tactically well and develop and spot players. Kenny just isn't capable of that, his last real success was at Blackburn, the game has moved on so much more since then.

We either need someone super experienced who can drag the club into CL so we can develop from there, or we need a young hungry manager who can build something from the ground up, kenny is neither of those things.

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People would be much more willing to give Kenny another chance if we actually seemed to have a plan on the pitch and he didn't sound like such a blithering idiot off it. His uselessness during Suarez-gate cant be forgotten.

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I think Comolli got dragged over to Boston to do his report not long before he was dismissed so maybe this meeting on Wednesday is the opportunity for Kenny and Clarke to put forward their reasons to them on why it went wrong and how it can be improved. Only then will FSG make a decision on their futures - at least thats what I hope is happening rather than planning for next season :(

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please be joking, jarvis, defoe and fletcher. horrible stuff.

i'm all but certain kenny will be given another 6 months :( too. madness considering the absolute mess this seasons been. wish fsg would have the balls to just thank him for stepping in when things were really **** and steading the ship and getting everyone pulling in the same direction again and move him on and get someone in who actually has some tactics other than 'go out and play boys'.

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Charlie Adam vs Cabaye is a better comparison. Both 26 now, both deep lying playmakers. One was a key player for a team that got relegated. The other was a key player for a team that won the league.

Players like Cabaye are exactly who we should go for. They should play for smaller teams in stature but not in performance. This means we won't have to pay over the top to pry them away (think about how Porto always get fair value when they sell players). Players would want to move to a bigger league as a challenge and won't carry a huge wage bill. They should be young enough that their best years are in front of them but so young as to need years of development to get into the first team (~age 23-25). And they should have good intangibles/character. Given two similar players, one with the personality/attitude of Lucas and one like Carroll, you are willing to pay a little bit for the mentally stronger player.

Also some broad overarching stereotypes that can be exploited.

Post-hype sleeper- Someone who was highly hyped a season or two ago but maybe a move never materialized or got pushed down the pecking order a bit. But they still had a quietly good season or have the talent. ex Thomas Müller (probably untouchable after WC2010, has been pushed out somewhat by Kroos, 7 goal/8 assists this season compared to 12/11 last season), or someone like Vela (12 goals, 7 assists both club leading for pretty good Sociedad side)

Leftovers at a big spending club- Whenever teams spend as much as City or Real Madrid, there are going to be players that never settled and quickly got replaced by another big money signing. ex Adebayor this season for Spurs, Dzeko could be in a similar situation next season. Or the many teams that have taken advantage of Real Madrid castoffs (Sneijder, Robben, Soldado, Mata, Javi Garcia, Negredo, VDV, etc, etc)

great post

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Let's sign Messi, Cavani and Ronaldo instead then?

We need to be realistic in our targets TBH. Jarvis is a solid winger and would at least push Downing for a place (Johnson is the better option though. I should also point out that despite being out of favour, Defoe scored the same number of league goals as Luis Suarez this season. He may not be the most cultured striker in the world, but he has scored consistently at the highest level for his whole career and would strengthen our squad.

People sneered at Defoe when were linked in January with a loan move. The fact of the matter is, we have limited options up front and he will most likely be moving in the summer, so is a worthwhile option. People can pull out FM style alternatives if they want, but many strikers will be out of our reach financially this summer, and other will move to better clubs.

Fletcher, admittedly, is pish.

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Newcastle are carrying out this moneyball thing waaay better than you. Cabaye is a good example, buying in cheap, flourishing and selling on for more (if/when they do sell him on), isn't that basically the crux of it? You're doing the opposite with your signings. What moneyball basically is then is just good scouting ... what a revolution! ;) Cabaye had knocked about the CL hadn't he but oddly no one picked up on him, didn't he also play a slightly different role in France?

I see Jarvis linked with Everton and also Southampton this morning

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Adam did get 11 assists and a couple of goals. If he'd been as good as set pieces as we thought he was going to be I don't think he'd be under as much criticism as he is.

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Newcastle are carrying out this moneyball thing waaay better than you. Cabaye is a good example, buying in cheap, flourishing and selling on for more (if/when they do sell him on), isn't that basically the crux of it? You're doing the opposite with your signings. What moneyball basically is then is just good scouting ...

It's not just good scouting, which is an art by itself. If scouting and finding talent was so easy why didn't Newcastle sign these players before. I think way too much is being made of Newcastles scouting system, lets be honest here they took a gamble and it paid off. There was no guarantee that the players they signed would adapt or work in the premiership. There are so many examples of players who should make it but never quite reach the level you would have expected.

Back to moneyball though, moneyball is finding value in something that is undervalued. For example goalkeepers are vastly undervalued in professional footballers, compare the number of keepers who have been sold for more than 10/15 million to the number of strikers. Moneyball when used in combination with something like sabremetrics can be a very good way to find the very best value in something you are looking for.

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Dirks not happy:

"Under this manager I don't have the feeling any more that he will put me in the side every week," Kuyt was quoted as telling The Sun. "I'm under no illusion about playing every week. But I believe I am still good enough to play for Liverpool every week.

"Last season I was scoring goals all over the place. But this season the manager bought three players who all played in my position. In the rotation system he used, I never found my rhythm again and never felt my old self."

His agent, Rob Jansen, added in Votelbal International: "We have already spoken to several interested parties, but no decisions have been taken yet. If Dalglish leaves, Dirk would be going nowhere."

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if we could get defoe cheap and pay him cheap with the understanding he's be a bench player to bring on to change a game when the oppo is tiring then fair enough, but that's not going to happen. he wants regular football, will cost quite abit and demand huge wages. my thoughts on him are the same as bent tbh, you just can''t build a team around him as he's limited on what he can offer as a main striker. not saying he's a bad player or wouldn't score goals but he'd not move us on to another level which is my main problem as he'll want regular games and a lenghthy contract.

it is a tricky situation upfront for us tbh as we can't rely on carroll and suarez seems to play at his best when on his own with quick clever footballers around him. as awful as we've been at scoring and as weird as it sounds i think adding another striker in there will only lead to more headaches as to who and how to play, we need to decide on how we want to play and sell one imo, then go from there on who to buy.

the fact that big andy cost so much and the club won't want to lose face by selling him so soon and so cheap means i can't see him leaving anytime soon and i can't see us wanting to sell our best player which means we'll still have both here with the same problems next season.

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Play 442 with a big man/little man combo with Carroll and Suarez then buy a cheap big man/little man combo to sit on the bench. Heskey and Owen are both on a free.

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Souness crashed to 6th, won a cup, and people began to call for his head on the back of that. Considering the rebuilding that he had to do, and we've got to do, I'm not sure how 8th and a league cup is "needs more time". Both seasons were horrifically under expectations. Anyone advocating Kenny needs more time is doing so on the basis of sentimentality, and not on evidence of the last 11 months.

But had we just had a manager of the calbre of Hodgson in charge? No. Had our owners pretty much just ripped a squad apart? No. Souness took over a very succesfull side and changed too much too soon simple as that. It was his fault. Yes he was left with an ageing squad but he didn't need to make the changes as quickly as he did. A bit of patience may have seen him keep the job and win a few more trophies.

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Also do you actually think Dirk Kuyt actually spoke to the Sun? Think about it, don't just post any old rubbish.

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Maybe the Sun picked up from elsewhere for starters and although papers make stuff up or go with stories that someone told them they don't usually just invent quotes, that's a bit of a no-no really

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Apparently the Guardian seem to think we have offered a job to Xavi Valero to return as goalkeeping coach.

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Well I did look it up on the sun and its an exclusive they have so I can only really think he has spoken to them.

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Well I did look it up on the sun and its an exclusive they have so I can only really think he has spoken to them.

tbf the sun will claim anything as an exclusive if you read mediawatch on f365.

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How dare you people quote the s*n, plastic fans the lot of you!
Well I did look it up on the sun and its an exclusive they have so I can only really think he has spoken to them.

Because the sun never lies!

Pair of what we like to call bad whoppers!

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I couldn't care less which paper wrote the story the fact it has actual quotes from the horses mouth lends me to believe it is in fact not just invented.

But don't let me get me in the way of the caveman attitude.

If Dirk was looking to force a move away, what could possibly get a reaction from one Kenny? Maybe talking to the sun could help his cause.

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I couldn't care less which paper wrote the story the fact it has actual quotes from the horses mouth lends me to believe it is in fact not just invented.

But don't let me get me in the way of the caveman attitude.

If Dirk was looking to force a move away, what could possibly get a reaction from one Kenny? Maybe talking to the sun could help his cause.

You clearly don't think very highly of Dirk Kuyt. I know he wouldn't do it. Met him a few times he is a top red and would never do that.

Can't even be bothered arguing with you, if you read that rag then you aren't worth my time. Not even thinking about Hillsborough look at the way that paper has behaved in recent times and you still read it?

Edit: Just seen on RAWK the original quotes from Dirk are from a dutch newspaper. Never spoke to the sun. As I say show a bit more respect to Dirk in future.

In other news Twitter has gone mental saying Kenny has stepped down. Can't really trust Twitter but wonder if there is something in it.

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Valencia relegated the other day, anyone know of decent players floating around their squad?

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Valencia relegated the other day, anyone know of decent players floating around their squad?

LOL I think you mean Villareal

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admire dirk all you want. but from that f365 link it seems the only reason he isn't thinking of a move to feyenoord is because he would have to take 80% wage drop.

so it's not like it is all love of liverpool coming from him.

dudester the sun has been known to claim exclusives along with one of the other tabloid papers based on interviews people have done in other countries. or even from official club statements. so while yes the quotes are likely to be true. the source is most likely not the sun.

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You clearly don't think very highly of Dirk Kuyt. I know he wouldn't do it. Met him a few times he is a top red and would never do that.

Can't even be bothered arguing with you, if you read that rag then you aren't worth my time. Not even thinking about Hillsborough look at the way that paper has behaved in recent times and you still read it?

Edit: Just seen on RAWK the original quotes from Dirk are from a dutch newspaper. Never spoke to the sun. As I say show a bit more respect to Dirk in future.

In other news Twitter has gone mental saying Kenny has stepped down. Can't really trust Twitter but wonder if there is something in it.

Nice assumptions Dirk is one of my fav players. I don't read the sun I read the story then looked online as the sun was the source for it, not too difficult to comprehend surely?

But no just throw the toys out of the pram as someone dared mention the sun.

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But no just throw the toys out of the pram as someone dared mention the sun.

someone on otf2 gave me negative karma because i had happened to post an extract from one of those daily rumour things which happened to be from the sun.

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admire dirk all you want. but from that f365 link it seems the only reason he isn't thinking of a move to feyenoord is because he would have to take 80% wage drop.

so it's not like it is all love of liverpool coming from him.

dudester the sun has been known to claim exclusives along with one of the other tabloid papers based on interviews people have done in other countries. or even from official club statements. so while yes the quotes are likely to be true. the source is most likely not the sun.

No he wants to leave we know that. He's saying it won't be Feyenoord because of the wage drop, it would be somebody else. Don't blame him for leaving to be honest, hasn't had the game time this season.

Will still be a legend once he leaves for me.

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Twitter really has gone into meltdown, hasn't it? :eek:

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Even breaking into baseball pictures of Henry, werner and Clarke last night but no Kenny.

Apparently betting has been suspended on it.

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He's probably sat drunk in a bar somewhere with McLeish :D

that would be amazing.

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Adam did get 11 assists and a couple of goals. If he'd been as good as set pieces as we thought he was going to be I don't think he'd be under as much criticism as he is.

Adam had the highest amount of assists for us in the league I think. Defoe said the other day that he was close to coming to us in January, quite like him and I'd say we could get him fairly cheap based on his age and current situation at spurs but alot of that is down to them getting Ade/another striker.

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Talksport reporting that he is already back in England.

Yeah apparently hes both back in England and in a meeting in Boston right now?

The speculation is the club will make an announcement later this afternoon.

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