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LAUREN's Arsenal Thread 2011/2012 - 125 Years of Greatness *sponsored by being BRILLIANT*

goon

By goon,
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His positioning is an issue, in my opinion. Yes, he works hard to get back into the position that he should be in, but someone like Yann M'Vila doesn't bring that weakness to the game. His range of passing is impressive too for a so called 'midfield enforcer'. From the game on Saturday, he made 108 passes and 7 through balls.

Maybe 'far more capable' is a bit of an over-statement, but he's just as good offensively as he is defensively.

He has few of the attributes that an attacking midfielder needs. He's good at holding the ball up, and although he can drive forward with the ball sometimes, it's in the same way that say Vermaelen does, not an attacking player. He isn't great with the ball at his feet, and he doesn't have a great range of passing at all. He can be a menace in a forward position, but then so was Gilberto. In fact I would say Song's offensive ability is on a par with Bertie's.

I know he's got some assists this season but that doesn't make him a great attacking midfielder. He's an exceptional holding midfielder and at times I wish he'd focus on it a bit more, because there's been times this season (and last) when he's been MIA. I don't mind him going forward and adding something to the attack but not at the expense of what he's out there for.

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dfgrigg

dfgrigg

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His positioning is an issue, in my opinion. Yes, he works hard to get back into the position that he should be in, but someone like Yann M'Vila doesn't bring that weakness to the game. His range of passing is impressive too for a so called 'midfield enforcer'. From the game on Saturday, he made 108 passes and 7 through balls.

He attempted seven through balls. Only one of them actually came off, and most of the attempts were pretty poor.

Song is a very good forceful box-to-box midfielder, but a playmaker he is not.

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Ayub95

Ayub95

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Song with his recent fantastic assists for RvP and Walcott, he decides to at least try these 3-4 times in a game and it doesn't come off most of the time. He should learn how to position himself better instead of trying be like Cesc.

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ajw10

ajw10

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The problem atm is not Song, its that we've lacked a proper AMC. Ramsey has been a flop this season, and Rosicky is not the long term answer. Song's had to drive forward and be our playmaker because Ramsey can't be.

Selling Gervinho would be mental. Actually mental.

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ajw10

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Bizarre. I can be quite critical of Song. In this case though,I'm right. Like last season, Cesc was barely around and we had on one to really attack teams, so Song bombed forward more. In 09/10 Cesc had his best season for the club, so Song could sit back more. He got less goals and assists, but his defensive work that season was amazing. That defensive work has dipped since then.

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Cesc played 25 of the 38 league matches last season and we had Wilshere in the side for most of the season too, who is far more capable as a more offensive midfielder (albeit an old-style central midfielder rather than an attacking midfielder).

If anything, it could be equally argued that Arteta is forced into a more defensive role because of Song, if we're going to use the impact of other players as an excuse.

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dfgrigg

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The problem atm is not Song, its that we've lacked a proper AMC. Ramsey has been a flop this season, and Rosicky is not the long term answer. Song's had to drive forward and be our playmaker because Ramsey can't be.

Selling Gervinho would be mental. Actually mental.

Agree to an extent. Ramsey's not been good enough in that position on the whole, and it remains to be seen whether Rosicky can maintain his energy and form. I'm hopeful that Wilshere will prove to be the long-term answer. Arteta's been generally excellent in the position Jack was playing last season so I would expect to see them both in a first-choice XI next season.

One small point I'd like to make: at no time has Song ever been a playmaker this season. True playmaking is about controlling the tempo of the team's play and spreading play to different areas of the pitch to open space and target defensive gaps. I suppose you could call it orchestrating the entire attacking thrusts of the team. Setting up a few goals is not the same thing.

I don't think we've really had any playmaker this season. The closest I guess would be Rosicky at the height of his resurgence.

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The nearest player we have to a playmaker is Arteta, but while he's been overall pretty good this season, he's not been much of a playmaker in practice, or not as much as I'd hoped. He's been playing deeper than I would have expected. It would have been interesting to see what role Arteta would have played had Wilshere been fit this season (assuming a Song, Wilshere, Arteta central midfield). I think Arteta may have played a more offensive role, but it's possible Wilshere may have done so (or both equally).

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ajw10

ajw10

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Cesc played 25 of the 38 league matches last season and we had Wilshere in the side for most of the season too, who is far more capable as a more offensive midfielder (albeit an old-style central midfielder rather than an attacking midfielder).

If anything, it could be equally argued that Arteta is forced into a more defensive role because of Song, if we're going to use the impact of other players as an excuse.

And in how many of those matches was Cesc in top form? 2/3?

Wilshere was told last season not to bomb forward as much. Hence why Song was last season. And I thought Song had a poor season last season. But it wasnt all down to him, the balance of the team was and still is wrong.

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I'm sure I read somewhere that Wenger had tried to stop Song from going forward as much last season but was unable to do so.

I agree the balance is wrong in midfield though and has been for some time. It is important that we retain that cover in the holding position though and Song is by far the most capable at doing that. As a defensive midfielder, he's outstanding. As a more traditional central midfielder, he's ordinary though.

As a defensive midfielder he can still make those forays into the other team's half, like Gilberto did. Gilberto wasn't great on the ball at all, but he could be a menace further forward. What Gilberto was good at though was knowing when to make the move and when not to. You can't fault Song's workrate, but I think I'd rather he helped out with our defensive failings rather than our attacking ones.

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ajw10

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I agree with that, but two things in Song's defence.

Gilberto played alongside the two finest midfielder players I have ever seen play for Arsenal, Song's best season came when he played alongside one of those two midfielders.

Another is age, Song is not yet 25, Gilberto was almost 26 when he joined the club.

On a slight tangent, but the way Wenger treated and got rid of Bertie was almost certainly the worst thing Wenger has ever done yeah?

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On a slight tangent, but the way Wenger treated and got rid of Bertie was almost certainly the worst thing Wenger has ever done yeah?

It was terrible how he was treated. It was partly circumstances, and partly mismanagement, but it was so sad that he must have left with some resentment after having such a great career with us.

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Well, it's a bit simplistic to blame Wenger entirely. He can be blamed for giving the captaincy to Gallas when it was clear that Gilberto should have got it (being vice captain the season before). That was almost saying to Gilberto that he was not guaranteed to be playing. That was a blunder.

I suspect that Wenger intended Diara to take Bertie's place during that season but a spanner was thrown in the works because Flamini decided to be awesome, completely out of the blue. No-one anticipated it and I can't remember a more dramatic change in a player ever. So we had a situation where Gilberto's enthusiasm and confidence was shot to bits, and having a player with a reputation for being difficult being left out of the side when he expected to feature.

I'm sure Diara kicked up a huge fuss and that's why he was let go in January. And Wenger wasn't in control over what Flamini was going to do. He might hope he would sign a new contract, but he couldn't force him to.

So it was a bit of an unfortunate series of events. IF Diara had been a bit more patient he would have been first choice the season after. IF Flamini had signed a new contract he would have been first choice for years to come (and we'd have lost Song probably). IF Bertie had played that season, we'd have lost Diara and Flamini anyway and Bertie would probably have left within a season or two anyway.

So while Wenger has some share of the blame, I think circumstances were unfortunate.

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I can't see him "lifting the lid" on what's happened over the years if that's what you mean. He seems to be the sort who wouldn't betray a trust and therefore wouldn't speak about things that happened behind closed doors unless someone gave their version of events beforehand.

You never know though. I just personally don't think he will give a warts and all account but I'd love it if he did.

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SJ234

SJ234

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Back to the midfield debate. Song can be excellent defensively truly outstanding but Diakite's goal is an excellent example of his failings as he was too far up and didn't track his man. Him and Arteta are the defensive base for the team in midfield and at times they have been excellent but in some games they have been terrible such as QPR and AC Milan. I disagree with Retro over the lack of playmaker what has actually happened is we have just dropped them deeper which is something Wenger has been keen on before apparently. The AMC issue is quite clear to me Ramsey is struggling to be the main man because of the horrific leg break however in his defence he doesn't disappear he keeps trying which to me suggests he will eventually excel. Rosicky sudden lease of life can't remain but I agree Wilshere is probably the answer. Or if not can we just buy Gylfi :D

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Back to the midfield debate. Song can be excellent defensively truly outstanding but Diakite's goal is an excellent example of his failings as he was too far up and didn't track his man. Him and Arteta are the defensive base for the team in midfield and at times they have been excellent but in some games they have been terrible such as QPR and AC Milan. I disagree with Retro over the lack of playmaker what has actually happened is we have just dropped them deeper which is something Wenger has been keen on before apparently. The AMC issue is quite clear to me Ramsey is struggling to be the main man because of the horrific leg break however in his defence he doesn't disappear he keeps trying which to me suggests he will eventually excel. Rosicky sudden lease of life can't remain but I agree Wilshere is probably the answer. Or if not can we just buy Gylfi :D

I didn't say that. I said the nearest we have to a playmaker is Arteta.

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chris79

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The nearest player we have to a playmaker is Arteta, but while he's been overall pretty good this season, he's not been much of a playmaker in practice, or not as much as I'd hoped. He's been playing deeper than I would have expected. It would have been interesting to see what role Arteta would have played had Wilshere been fit this season (assuming a Song, Wilshere, Arteta central midfield). I think Arteta may have played a more offensive role, but it's possible Wilshere may have done so (or both equally).

That is exactly what I have been thinking/feeling this season.

Arteta especially in the first part of the season was a bit like an old-school playmaker, sitting deep and making passes to the sides/forwards, mostly short to mid range passes, meaning it was just a build up to some real attack and a lot of creativity was needed from the players who were receiving the ball (as opposed to modern playmaker we had in Cesc, who was playing long through balls as well as making short exchanges in limited space ).

I personally thought Wenger's plan was just to put Jack exactly in Cesc's role, and that he preferred Diaby to Arteta to play between Wilshere and Song.

Coming back to Llew's original point, I wouldn't disagree totally with him. If we had a very good DMC, Song, could be used in that central role as a box to box midfielder. Not my preferred option, but it could work.

And since we're on the subject, I was wondering if the 'new' system that has been tried recently would satisfy the ones who wanted us to switch to 4-4-2. It is almost a 4-4-2 when we attack but without typical wide midfielders (just 2 defensive CMs and 2 offensive ones with very attacking fullbacks). I am not convinced by it BUT if we imagine just one change to the team: Wilshere for Ramsey, it could make such a difference. Jack has all the things Ramsey lacks to play well in that position (I would call it a 'false winger'). He doesn't have the Welshman's ability to score, but it will come.

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EdL

EdL

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Also on Diarra did we have a clause like we did with Bentley where we got 35-45% of their next transfer?

Yeah we made quite big profit on Diarra in the end - a little over £7M

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Suggy33

Suggy33

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Jesus, we bought him for what, £4m? Shame it never worked out for him, it was Flamini and Gilberto holding him up (iirc) and since they were playing especially well, was never gonna muscle in unless there was an injury.

So, who'd take Flamini back?

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Llew_Arshavin23

Llew_Arshavin23

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Coming back to Llew's original point, I wouldn't disagree totally with him. If we had a very good DMC, Song, could be used in that central role as a box to box midfielder. Not my preferred option, but it could work.

Weirdly enough, and I know this may sound contradictory to my original point, but I agree with the idea of him being used as a box-to-box midfielder.

To set the record straight, I never said that 'Song should be used as a playmaker', all I said was that he's become somewhat of a playmaker when it comes to these 'worldy' lofted balls that he's executed in recent weeks. It's always him, from what I've seen of the games, who regularly attempts that lofted ball from deep. :thup:

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SJ234

SJ234

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don't really see what the real problem with that is, just looked like he was catching up with a friend, wasn't doing anything illegal either, typical Mail non-story really.

Non-story but it isn't professional of him

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Which would suggest we don't have one. Arteta is the playmaker. However he and Song can get overrun

I qualified the comment with "... he's not been much of a playmaker in practice..."

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SJ234

SJ234

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I qualified the comment with "... he's not been much of a playmaker in practice..."

I would still disagree; but it is semantics on whether you did or you didn't suggest he is the playmaker. He has often been the playmaker however he has gone missing and has been overrun at times. I am very keen for us to sign M'Villa would hopefully help with the midfield disappearing in some games.

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dagoonerfan

dagoonerfan

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Apparently the Stoner Chamakh is gonna stay anyway based on quotes in a french magazine

'Am I going back to Bordeaux? For now, no. I have spoken to Wenger and I will stay at Arsenal. I think he trusts my work and I will have opportunities in the first team.

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Candre168

Candre168

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I've heard some say Shisha is actually worse than cigarette tobacco. But a lot more players smoke than we think, and he wasn't doing anything illegal so I don't really see the problem. His own pitch uselessness is more of a problem.

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Razzler

Razzler

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I've heard some say Shisha is actually worse than cigarette tobacco. But a lot more players smoke than we think, and he wasn't doing anything illegal so I don't really see the problem. His own pitch uselessness is more of a problem.

Yes, it's terrible. It goes on for ages so it's like sitting down smoking a pack or more at once :D

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Klimowicz

Klimowicz

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I've just seen a couple of other reports including The Guardian and there's no quotes in there either. Even Sky haven't picked the story up!! :D
I heard it on SSN first thing this morning (going through the back pages with the guy from the DM ironically). And I've just remembered... it not the first time something like this happened. DM again. Surprise. :D

article-0-02374AFA000005DC-895_468x286.jpg

Naughty William...

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Dale Gribble

Dale Gribble

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Really? I'd be quite shocked if true, I always pegged him as a health fanatic.

Ah I was close, he said this regarding the Gallas incident:

"In France, in Spain you see it so many times. Now it is much less, when I was a player nobody would ever tell you why you should not smoke. We were driving home in coaches you had to open the windows in winter to see each other.

"In France we all smoke. I've seen buses in France you would not believe it where you didn't see each other. I smoked, never a lot, never when I played. When I was a young coach I had one because my assistant would have one. At three o'clock in the morning when we had lost a big game we'd have a smoke."

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