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LAUREN's Arsenal Thread 2011/2012 - 125 Years of Greatness *sponsored by being BRILLIANT*

goon

By goon,
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Sy13

Sy13

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I don't think there is any new evidence to change my opinion yet. Arsenal have won a lot of games recently, some fortunately (Liverpool), but nothing much has changed since the Autumn. Same manager, same players, same board, same trophy-less season. Let's not forget if RvP got injured away in Milan we'd be 5th or 6th now, not 3rd. That's the point - we have been one injury away from losing CL football and AW is to blame for that.

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chris79

chris79

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if RvP got injured away in Milan we'd be 5th or 6th now, not 3rd. That's the point - we have been one injury away from losing CL football and AW is to blame for that.

Do you also have an analysis of what would it be if Wilshere and Sagna were not injured most of the season?

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chris79

chris79

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Why shouldn't people be allowed to change their opinions when presented with new evidence? It's far more idiotic to stubbornly stick to your opinion because you can't admit to being wrong (either to others or yourself). You seem to be suggesting that doing that is worthy of credit - but you're wrong.

I can say that as someone who has always stuck behind the manager. :cool:

It is not a case of whether one's opinion should be 'allowed' to change. It is about how serious you can treat certain individuals' opinions.

Opinion is subjective by definition. But they can either be based on rational arguments or someone's individual beliefs* or they can be just an expression of somebody's current feelings. If people base their views on the future of the club on a couple of recent results, I don't think anyone should bother reading it at all.

I took a look at comments after our home game with Swansea and apart from cries that we were going to battle relegation there were voices of those happy we got 3 points and saying that the team and its manager have enough quality to improve a lot. Football is unpredictable, but in the long run a lot of things are down to quality of the players. I believe what is happening now, no matter how amazing it looks, was really one of the most likely scenarios. And yes, I am taking a lot of joy from the fact that I was one of those who saw it as a real possibility.

*that's why I respect dj's views even though most of the time I don't agree with them. He apparently thinks we have no real quality apart from few first team players and most of the squad show no real winning character. That can be disputed, but at least he sticks to it no matter what form we are in.

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Retro

Retro

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As far as I was concerned his position was without question until at least the end of the season. And unless we had a totally disastrous season, he should get the chance to put things right over the summer (depending on circumstances - if it was clear he'd lost the dressing room then that would alter things).

If we finish top 4 then his position is totally secure. I do hope he has learnt from the debacle of last summer though.

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Sy13

Sy13

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I like to believe had RVP got injured Chamakh would have stepped up...

He would have played, sure, but so what? AW has taken an incredible gamble by not having an effective back up for RvP and he's got away with it. There's no way we'd be third now with Chamakh as point man. I really think we should have brought in Saha til the end of the season in case RvP cried off again.

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chris79

chris79

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Ironically, Sy's desperate (and failed, btw) attempt to point at a player that could be signed at reasonable cost to become a valuable backup for van Persie just confirms what Wenger and people defending him have been saying for ages: it is so difficult to find a player with skills, experience and price tag/wage demands at a level that could be accepted by a club like Arsenal. Unless we expect him to uncover some hidden gem from French 2nd division or Sweden (or Senegal?) he can't be blamed for not being able to find a backup that would satisfy everyone.

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dagoonerfan

dagoonerfan

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Let's not forget if RvP got injured away in Milan we'd be 5th or 6th now, not 3rd. That's the point - we have been one injury away from losing CL football and AW is to blame for that.

In fairness to us, in this seven game unbeaten run, RVP he has only scored 4 times, and the winner once.

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Sy13

Sy13

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In fairness to us, in this seven game unbeaten run, RVP he has only scored 4 times, and the winner once.

So what? He's been on the pitch, held up play, brought other players into attack etc. Basically he does everything Chamakh and Park can't!

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pouncer

pouncer

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I think Saha would command a really high price tag in comparison to his ability. I don't like to see loan signings, although I absolutely agree with Sy in thinking that we should have got backup in over January. I've heard Chris Iwelumo was up for joining us as was Mido. These are both the sort of high-quality international standard players we should be looking to sign to not only cover for RvP in the case of him becoming injured, but to push him on further and further, to better him even more. I mean he didn't even score this weekend, wtf? :mad::mad::mad::mad:

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chris79

chris79

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As for the striker argument, with my earlier post I was referring to January transfer window, I thought that was Sy's argument - that we should have signed Saha then. So I think it is very unlikely that Wenger was able to find a cheap player that would be better than Chamakh (yes, I am expecting a typical 'anyone's better than Chamakh' joke) and could play straight away in the Prem. The experience in England costs a lot, as Derrent Bent's transfer fees prove. On the other hand, signing an unproven player is not a solution for the problem as we are talking about someone who could step in in case he gets injured.

Bearing in mind the implications of Park or Chamakh's contracts and wages etc that make any signings less likely, generally it is clear that we could do with a really good alternative for van Persie but that is not something you address in January. You could however do it in the summer for example by signing an experienced player with a great goalscoring record for German national team.

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Avelives

Avelives

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I find Arsenal an interesting watch, Im a Chelsea fan so have no love for you lot, but I have watched you season after season now fail to win anything, almost self destructing at times when victory looked so close. You have some great players (one world class one) but I honestly think your biggest issue is psychological. Now you are effectively incapable of winning anything your form has miraculously reappeared. I dunno maybe thats a tad simplistic but its seems you sort of choke/get overconfident when you are in with a shout of winning things, but when you have nothing to lose you focus and play like a team alot more. And honestly I think wenger is responsible for breeding that arrogance into his players, year after year he excuses bad results and poor losses by blaming aggressive tactics, refs, linesmen, god, the devil... anyone except his players.

This season is the first in ages where he openly criticised his team, but there mindset is his fault, they think they are alot better than they are and they get overconfident far to easily. When motivated properly they should be a top 3 team at least.

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Sy13

Sy13

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Hard to take that seriously when City should be top of that table on goal difference!

What a pointless stat. Not only does the league table not work like that but the season doesn't start in October FFS.

Honestly, some Gooners really will grasp at anything to claim success. A pity.

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afced7

afced7

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Not only does the league table not work like that

Actually it does in a way... think about it. Also, the new signings at the end of August needed time to bed in, give September up for that and there you go, its a useful table. To be fair though, it was completely Wenger's fault that we didn't get reinforcements in sooner and make a real go of the league from the start.

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Jisntdaman

Jisntdaman

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What a pointless stat. Not only does the league table not work like that but the season doesn't start in October FFS.

Honestly, some Gooners really will grasp at anything to claim success. A pity.

Have any gooners claimed that league table as a success?

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Retro

Retro

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It's like the possession in the last 10 minutes stat. I mean how many games only run for 10 minutes ffs!!? :mad:

We all know that if the stat showed Arsenal in tenth, then Sy would be taking it much more seriously. It's called Cherry Picking.

The normal amongst us know that it's just a stat. It's interesting, it indicates an increase in form as the season has progressed, but ultimately doesn't prove anything.

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chris79

chris79

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Though this table only indicates a form for given period of time it sometimes shows a trend that is developing and can continue into the new season. I remember similar tables some year ago surprising me with high positions of Man City and Spurs.

Speaking of statistics, how god is our current run compared to recent past? I think it will be hard to keep on going like that, even without drop of form or injuries some unlucky draw may happen.

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Retro

Retro

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I was contemplating how many points we might need to secure a top 4 finish the other day.

Chelsea and Newcastle can only get a maximum of 74 points, so we need 17 to be 100% sure. But I can't see either of those sides winning their remaining 8 games (and they have to play each other too). Both sides have to play Liverpool. Newcastle have to play Man City and Chelsea have to play us. Much depends on our match v Chelsea obviously.

I do fear Chelsea a lot more than Newcastle, but I still think we may only need 10 more points out of 24. How many we need for third is a lot harder to estimate.

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Retro

Retro

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If you look at our stats you can see why 3rd of October was chosen. Before that our record was W2 D1 L4.

Stats can always be manipulated. For example, is our recent record W7 D0 L0 or W7 D1 L3? Both are accurate, but suggest different things. ;)

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chris79

chris79

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Both sides have to play Liverpool.

That's 3 points for each of them, then;)

If you look at our stats you can see why 3rd of October was chosen. Before that our record was W2 D1 L4.

At first I thought the same thing, but then realized it is just a half year table. He posted it in the Liverpool thread, too, so I don't think it was created to make us feel good. Especialy as the first game it ommits is our 3-0 win over Bolton.

Not saying that stats - especially form - aren't easily manipulated of course.

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Retro

Retro

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Liverpool should have beaten us. They're more than capable of turning either side over.

The first game it omits is our defeat to Spurs (October 2nd). The table may have been compiled by an Arsenal supporter but just discovered and used by a Liverpool fan on this forum because it also highlights how bad they've been. I think the table is definitely most relevant to Arsenal, then Liverpool.

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chris79

chris79

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@ Retro - I wasn't serious about Liverpool, even though I believe they are in a state they can easily lose both these games. Kind of reminds me of Arsenal's typical crisis. They lost to us in a game they should have won easily, that is obvious and I think it was the only game in that run we didn't deserve to win. At Everton we were lucky sometimes but so were they but we defended extremely well.

As for the table, I missed Spurs game when I had a quick look at fixtures, which increases the chances of it being made by an Arsenal fan.

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