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LAUREN's Arsenal Thread 2011/2012 - 125 Years of Greatness *sponsored by being BRILLIANT*

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Vela was a sensational young poacher I remember watching him win the 2005 U17 World Cup for Mexico as top scorer before he signed. His finishing has always been deadly.

He got shoved out on the left wing and played a couple of cup games as a target man looking ridiculously out of his depth because he is just not a target man.

You are right about the 4-3-3 being partly to blame, we just don't have players suitable for the formation but I would argue it is not even 4-3-3.

It's very much a 4-5-1 because Walcott is used as a midfielder receiving possession deep in his own half where he is ineffective beyond belief.

When Walcott is actually deployed a wide forward he is a huge threat but this only happens in games when we already have the upper hand in midfield.

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Carlos Vela could have been top class if he was managed properly.

Firstly, I wouldn't have signed him until he was eligible for a Work Permit. Get a first option on him. For a promising player to be signed and then sent on loan to some crap second division Spanish side for two years is really damaging. Plus, you'll know more about him by then to know if he's worth buying.

Even if you do buy him and loan him out, once you get him back, give him a proper run of games. This subbing a player on in the last 10 minutes doesn't work too well if you really want to give a player a shot. Vela proved in the Cup that he was good enough, he should have been given a run of games.

Instead, he wasn't given a run of games until injury forced Wenger to play him out of position in where his confidence got shot down.

Wenger really mismanaged Vela's career.

This is EXACTLY what will happen with Joel Campbell/Wellington Silva/Ryo Myiachi.

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I guess the decline in Walcott's form could be partly explained by the weakness of our midfield now.

His lame attempt to 'help' by coming deep receiving the ball 5 yards from the fullback and not having a clue what do with it does not happen when we are dominant.

This is especially true when there are no natural ball carriers in the team, its always been a problem and why I got so angry when I saw Rosicky wide on the teamsheet.

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What I would not give to see a proper shake-up of the side.

Never going to happen but I would like to this vs Sunderland.

340334_Arsenal.jpg

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Amusing to hear about Wenger mismanaging young players when over the years more often than not he's made promising young players into world stars.

Henry, Fabregas, Van Persie, Cole, Toure, Anelka to name but a few,

Far more incidences of him managing youngsters correctly than vice versa.

Besides it's not cut and dried either, who is to say Theo would be any good had he been managed differently, likewise who is to say Fabregas wouldn't have come through at another club?

All ifs and buts.

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Yeah, a decade ago he was doing a fantastic job of developing talent but that was a different Arsenal and a different Arsene Wenger. He gave young players a chance to compete for a first team place but never handed it platter to any of those players. They each had to prove themselves against world class professionals. Is it any coincidence that the players you listed who each had to earn the right to play for Arsenal and developed an aggressive fighting spirit compared to our current crop of pampered pussies?

The other difference is Wenger would look at a player’s strengths and place them in a position to fit their abilities. He did not place Anelka on the wing for six seasons to ‘develop’ his game. He made him fight for a place with legend Ian Wright. If he was good enough he kept his place, if not he would be dropped. It took Van Persie years to establish himself as the successor to Bergkamp. Always had talent but when he f*cked up he got dropped. Never accommodated out of position. He became a winner.

Toure got switched to central defence but not to accommodate him, he had to earn his place against World Class defenders. I could use a dozen more examples.

Rewarding failure results in a losers mentality and Wenger should be judged on his actions not weasel words. Djourou's new contact tells you all you need to know. Nothing has changed and nothing will change until losers including Wenger are held to account.

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Amusing to hear about Wenger mismanaging young players when over the years more often than not he's made promising young players into world stars.

Henry' date=' Fabregas, Van Persie, Cole, Toure, Anelka to name but a few,

Far more incidences of him managing youngsters correctly than vice versa.

Besides it's not cut and dried either, who is to say Theo would be any good had he been managed differently, likewise who is to say Fabregas wouldn't have come through at another club?

All ifs and buts.[/quote']

Erm, that's because he played those players in the correct positions so you've missed the point entirely. Theo, Vela, and Bendy have been played out wide far more than they should have. Theo hasn't even been given a reasonable chance up front in 5 years!! If that isn't chronic mismanagement then I don't know what is.

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Yeah, a decade ago he was doing a fantastic job of developing talent but that was a different Arsenal and a different Arsene Wenger. He gave young players a chance to compete for a first team place but never handed it platter to any of those players. They each had to prove themselves against world class professionals. Is it any coincidence that the players you listed who each had to earn the right to play for Arsenal and developed an aggressive fighting spirit compared to our current crop of pampered pussies?

The other difference is Wenger would look at a player’s strengths and place them in a position to fit their abilities. He did not place Anelka on the wing for six seasons to ‘develop’ his game. He made him fight for a place with legend Ian Wright. If he was good enough he kept his place, if not he would be dropped. It took Van Persie years to establish himself as the successor to Bergkamp. Always had talent but when he f*cked up he got dropped. Never accommodated out of position. He became a winner.

Toure got switched to central defence but not to accommodate him, he had to earn his place against World Class defenders. I could use a dozen more examples.

Rewarding failure results in a losers mentality and Wenger should be judged on his actions not weasel words. Djourou's new contact tells you all you need to know. Nothing has changed and nothing will change until losers including Wenger are held to account.

This is probably the best post in this thread for weeks.

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Vela knows how to chip the ball, rarely scores in any other fashion.

You say that, but he's been doing quite well for Real Sociedad recently. Scoring some good goals, too.

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I don't think Vela was one of the most promising strikers in football: if anything he's always fallen into the 'mediocre' category you always bang on about. He scored a handful of pretty goals but when we needed a striker to come off the bench and salvage a game for us he was nowhere to be seen. Bendtner would be a far better example of a wasted talent. Arrogant yes - but I think a good manager ought to be able to channel arrogance into performance to a certain extent. Constantly playing Bendtner on the wing last year was massively frustrating, that was madness. He was as clear a central striker as ever. Now he's gone and we're left with Chamakh, who IMO is the not the superior of the two.

I do agree with you on Theo though. Every season we said "Wenger will move him inside" and every season he never did. He had a good run (was it a couple of years ago?) where he was slightly more central and scored some excellent goals, but then did his shoulder in. In the meantime we changed to this more defined 4-3-3 where he was always going to be a winger, he was never given the chance to play even slightly centrally again. I still maintain that on-form, Theo can easily be among our top three players at the moment. Lacks consistency though etc etc

He doesn't have to play like an out and out winger he can play on the last man. His attitude is also poor. He needs to pick up his game as much as we need to utilise him better

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Our squad could move towards a more 4-4-2 shape now; it won't be one but with enough fluidity it would function. However there is the danger in that of playing two up front when we are short of strikers there is also the moving of our top goal scorer away from the goal.

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The problem with 4-4-2 is that the amount of CM's there are and which 2 will be preferred. Probably Song and Arteta atm.

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Seems we have lost Per for the season. On the Germany front, hopefully can finally see a Howedes-Hummels partnership for the Euros !

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Ramsey would have to up his game and fight for his place with Arteta. This side is not good enough to carry him.

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What happens to Ramsey when Wilshere returns? A loan deal or does the reserves beckon?

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Some of you may want to that Mikel Arteta has been placed third in the world in terms of most passes, on average, every game: Xavi (106 passes; 93% completion), Xabi Alonso (86 passes; 89% completion), Mikel Arteta (81 passes; 91% completion) and Bastian Schweinsteiger (81 passes; 86 completion) - He's in good company.

What happens to Ramsey when Wilshere returns? A loan deal or does the reserves beckon?

A valued member of the first-team squad. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not as if he has absolute zero amount of quality/potential.

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What happens to Ramsey when Wilshere returns? A loan deal or does the reserves beckon?

Depends on his performance, as it should do. Competition for places is natural and how things should be.

In a 4-4-2 there is nothing to stop the likes of Arteta, Ramsey and Wilshire also competing for a wide midfield position.

There might also be occasional games when we need the additional midfielder and switch back to 4-5-1.

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Depends on his performance, as it should do. Competition for places is natural and how things should be.

In a 4-4-2 there is nothing to stop the likes of Arteta, Ramsey and Wilshire also competing for a wide midfield position.

There might also be occasional games when we need the additional midfielder and switch back to 4-5-1.

You are actually serious that you would even consider using Arteta and to a lesser extent Ramsey on the wing! Wasting the Ox and Gervinho.

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You are actually serious that you would even consider using Arteta and to a lesser extent Ramsey on the wing! Wasting the Ox and Gervinho.

Is it that inconceivable that that in certain situations it might be beneficial to play a wide midfielder one flank and an out and out winger on the other? This could be particularly useful and provide balance when overloading the opposite flank. Think back to Ray Parlours contribution to the liberation of Mark Overmars down the opposite side.

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Yeah, a decade ago he was doing a fantastic job of developing talent but that was a different Arsenal and a different Arsene Wenger. He gave young players a chance to compete for a first team place but never handed it platter to any of those players. They each had to prove themselves against world class professionals. Is it any coincidence that the players you listed who each had to earn the right to play for Arsenal and developed an aggressive fighting spirit compared to our current crop of pampered pussies?

The other difference is Wenger would look at a player’s strengths and place them in a position to fit their abilities. He did not place Anelka on the wing for six seasons to ‘develop’ his game. He made him fight for a place with legend Ian Wright. If he was good enough he kept his place, if not he would be dropped. It took Van Persie years to establish himself as the successor to Bergkamp. Always had talent but when he f*cked up he got dropped. Never accommodated out of position. He became a winner.

Toure got switched to central defence but not to accommodate him, he had to earn his place against World Class defenders. I could use a dozen more examples.

Rewarding failure results in a losers mentality and Wenger should be judged on his actions not weasel words. Djourou's new contact tells you all you need to know. Nothing has changed and nothing will change until losers including Wenger are held to account.

this is a really good post/point in fairness to djvandyke.

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Rosicky played that role many a time and personally he played well once in a while and he is probably the best at that role from the midfield.

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Something I've always wondered about Rosicky, was'nt he renowned at Dortmund for his long range shooting? I don't think I've ever seen him get a long range effort on target for Arsenal, never mind trouble the keeper.

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Something I've always wondered about Rosicky, was'nt he renowned at Dortmund for his long range shooting? I don't think I've ever seen him get a long range effort on target for Arsenal, never mind trouble the keeper.

He did I think before he had that terrible injury.

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Good point about Rosicky. He would be far more effective as a wide midfielder in a 4-4-2 than he is as a winger in the current set-up.

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He did I think before he had that terrible injury.

He scored a cracker at Euro '08 (I think it was that tournament), a few days after we had signed him. At least, I seem to remember him scoring a long ranger.

I was excited and surprised that we had actually got him before the tournament.

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Hoping for a win later against Sunderland but not raising my hopes too high. Don't want a replay tho especially not one just before playing the Spuds.

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He scored on his debut too :(

[video=youtube;aTwWkxQLEQk]

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We keep complaining about Chamakh but at least he isn't Torres!

At least Torres tries to create something. Only thing Chamakh is good at is styling his hair.

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Some of you may want to that Mikel Arteta has been placed third in the world in terms of most passes, on average, every game: Xavi (106 passes; 93% completion), Xabi Alonso (86 passes; 89% completion), Mikel Arteta (81 passes; 91% completion) and Bastian Schweinsteiger (81 passes; 86 completion) - He's in good company.

wasn't that theory proved to be bollocks the other season when Denilson had the most completed passes in the PL or something?

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It would be extremely harsh to compare Arteta to Denilson.

yeah true, although I swear the last time there as one of those passing statistic things out a Swansea player was top of it

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There was a thread where people were comparing Leon Britton and Xavi. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

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Apparently, Kieran Gibbs hasn't travelled with the squad today up to Sunderland. I can only presume that he's being rested? :rolleyes:

God knows who we are playing at lb then. Maybe he is injured already?

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Vermaelen at LB with Squillaci in the middle maybe. Or Coquelin at LB. Either way we're out.

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Our line-up for today's match;

Fabianski; Sagna, Djourou, Vermaelen, Coquelin; Song, Arteta, Ramsey; Oxlade-Chamberlain, Gervinho, RVP

That's quite a strong side, considering who we have available, and I'm disappointed that Miquel doesn't feature from the start. COYG!

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Fabianski, Sagna, Djourou, Vermaelen, Coquelin, Arteta, Song, Ramsey, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Gervinho, Van Persie.

WHY IS FABIANSKI STARTING? What does Ramsey have to do in order to get dropped?

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