Implementing an "English" 4-4-2

[Ze D'Angola]

Hello Mr Tactical Guru,

I post this topic in need of your advice, knowledge and guidance – as I continually replicate; disastrous, ineffective and frustrating versions of my preferred formation and playing style…

I am aware that it is equally, if not more important, to get the right type of players to play your instruction, but that isn’t my issue.

Having tried the Tactics Editor and the FM 05-08 methods (I am playing FM11, 11.3), I ask for your opinions on how to get these ideas working on the game please?

Desired Formation

Flat 4-4-2

Desired Style

“Old fashioned”, “No nonsense”, “English”, “Lower League”

Real-Life Examples

Stoke (Pulis), Wimbledon (Harry Bassett), Plymouth Argyle (Sturrock), Wigan (Jewell)

Desired Positional Description

‘Keeper – I would say selecting a ‘Keeper is much of a muchness. I do prefer a good kicker.

Fullbacks – Central Defenders on the sides really. Closing down and pressuring enough to sheppard into harmless areas (As I would prefer a narrow approach), but not to get too tight to get skinned. I am not looking for these players to be attacking, or to overlap. If they find themselves straying into the opponents half, to cross from further back.

Centre Halves – I am not looking for players leaving the line of four, but I do not want them ball watching. I would like them to clear their lines in an “Ave it” style.

Centre Midfielders – Chopping, ball winners only here. I figure I will be outnumbered by these seemingly favored, boring 4-5-1’s (My opinion of course!) that seem to have emerged over the past six/seven years. I am not interested in these players supplementing the attack by being in the box.

Wingers – Old fashioned, life blood of football, getting chalk on their boots. My favorite players to watch are Wingers, I would like them to be my favorite players to watch on FM too.

Strikers – I want my front men to “Put it about” and be aerially dominant. I would like them to spread the ball wide once they have taken the ball down.

My Interpretation

Players Instructions;

‘Keeper; Goalkeeper (Defend)

Fullback; Fullback (Defend)

Centre Halves; Limited Defender (Defend)

Central Midfielders; Ball Winning Midfielder (Defend)

Wingers; Winger (Attack)

Strikers; Target Man (Support)

Team Instructions;

Mentality – Normal

Creative Freedom – Little

Passing – Long

Tempo – Quick

Width – Narrow

Closing Down – All Over (Own half for back four)

Time Wasting – Rarely

Defensive Line – Deep

Tackling – Hard

Passing Down Both Flanks, Tight-Man Marking

What do you think?

…

[Norte del Valle Cartel]

Something like the good old days of Wimbledon with Fashanu up front and Vinny Jones and Dennis Wise in midfield. I think that you maybe better off having a pacey striker to complement your big target man as otherwise with you team playing so deep and hitting long balls you won't have anybody quick enough to get on to the end of it. You also have to think about (if you go with what I just said about the strikers) whether or not you have your big man to come deep to win flick ons and have the little guy run from deep to get on the end of them or perhaps you have them both far forward waiting.

You're definately going to need some quality wingers with excellent crossing/dribbling skills. I would imagine that they would not need to be that pacey so long as they can hit an early cross or through ball. Good luck with it as I'd love to help if I can. Oh make sure you choose a very short/narrow pitch!

You may also want to have one of your MCs as a Box 2 Box guy to help support the strikers.

[Ze D'Angola]

Thank you very much for your input, Norte del Valle Cartel

I figured this thread would be half-way down the page by now with no views - At least it got one reply!

If I play without pace upfront, the opponent with push up their Defensive line and I’ll "Do 'em" over the top. At least, that's what I’m hoping for…

Maybe I am better off with a Poacher/Target Man combo?

Have you run the risk over my proposed instructions? Do you think I’m on the right track?

Thanks

Alex

[Norte del Valle Cartel]

I would have your wingers on Support so that they can run from deep as If they go too far forward they will have nowhere to run. Actually come to think of it are you going to have them in the ml or aml role?

You mentioned about the opponent pushing up and then "you'll do em over the top"? Well how do you think your slow big man will get to the ball before they're DC when their DC will more than likely be faster than him? I really would opt for a nippy striker along side a big man as you can get this working wonders and gives diversity to your side. Set your team out Rigid and for mentality I would have them set to counter attack as you will be defending for long periods. One problem you may encounter is by playing a very high closing down policy thus with a deep D Line you may find that the opposition will tear you to bits as your midfield will be pulled out of position. It could be a good idea to play a very high D Line at home (so long as you got a very short/narrow pitch) along with high closing down but away from home I would look to have your side more disciplined.

Im actually getting an urge to try this myself now thinking about it!

Out of interest what division were you thinking of playing and what side?

[R0ca]

Instead of playing 2 ball winners go for a box - box midfielder i think that fits the criteria better to be honest, will also give you some much needed thrust from a deeper central area.

[den-dockx1993]

On the FM-Britain.co.uk site is a good article about the standard English 4-4-2, it's called 'how to build a simple 4-4-2' or something like that. I'm sorry if it isn't allowed to link to other sites.

[Ze D'Angola]

After lots of testing I have found...

With my Central Midfielders I have found that - Central Midfielder (Defend) play's more of what I would class as a real life Ball Winner. So I am edging away from the settings the Tactics Creator suggests.

ROca, how do you find Box-Box-Midfielders play defensively? Have you used two in the same Midfield before?

I do not like the Limited Defender setting, did SI really mean "School boy"? Is anyone having success with Centre Halves on these settings? Am I better off with Central Defender (Defend)? A Stopper/Cover combination?

Norte del Valle Cartel - That is an interesting suggestion about Winger (Support), I never thought of that. To answer your question, I was going to try Blue Square North/South, but I would rather get comfortable with my instructions in a less challenging environment.

Having said that, I was going to choose Plymouth Argyle… With our financial predicament at the moment and a squad of League Two players on Championship wages, I reckon Argyle must be one of the toughest challenges in the full-time game!

I am quite happy to start a little test/experiment, if you are? Maybe a few of us could try it? Do you have any suggestions on League/Team? That's if you don't already have a save going at the moment?

[R0ca]

Nope i don't play with them, but i find it's a very "english" style of play, i wouldn't reccommend playing two together however you may find yourself exposed to a counter attack through the middle of the park if they both go forward at the same time.

try playing the ball winning midfielder and the box-box and possibly turning the ball winning mids forward runs to rare.

In terms of defense a stopper works well if you have a centre half who has high aggression and bravery throw in anticipation and jumping and you will have a decent lower level stopper.

if you don't have this sort of player try going with 2 CB's on defend duty.

[Norte del Valle Cartel]

I have a save game going at the moment however I would be willing in the next day or so to have a go at this perhaps in the championship (unsure as to what team) with a low rep side. In regards to your central midfield I would perhaps look to have them both employed in the DM role thus protecting both DCs. We don't really want them roaming around like headless chickens in areas whereby the opposition cannot hurt us. I think perhaps we should first identify our sides shape and then list the attributes that we are going to need for each position.

I am thinking something like this:

GK: Defend

LB: Fullback/Defend

RB: Fullback/Defend

DCl: Limit Defender/Defend

DCr: Limit Defender/Defend (when home have a fast player Limit/Cover)

DMl: Defensive Mid/Defend (when home have him BW/Defend so he can win the ball back in the midfield)

DMr: Defensive Mid/Defend (when home have him Box 2 Box so he can support the attack)

Ml/Mr: Wide Mid/Support (when home have him Wide Mid/Defensive Winger so he can press quickly the full back)

Target Man: Need to decide if you gonig to have him drop deep and win flicks or stay far ahead and win flicks

Poacher/Advance Forward: Need to decide if he is going to play on teh shoulder of the last defender or if he will sit deep and make lots of runs from deep.

This I feel will give good balance and different philisophies when playing home and away and will be quite effective albeit rather boring to watch!

If you agree with this or have any ideas regarding this then we can start to look at the required attributes for each of these positions.

Right I have saved my game and I am going to start a new game to do this with you as Im quite interested to see how the ME handles this type of game. I have chosen Scunthorpe media prediction 24th!

[davidmcain]

Hi guys, I would strongly suggest building your 442 around the players you have at your disposal. Of course keep the 442 flat shape, but to get the best results from your tactics it would be foolish to ignore the attributes your players hold. For example, if you were West Ham for example then Scott Parker is your best in Centre Midfield by a long way, yet playing him as a Defensive Mid/Defend will just sap away all his best attributes as a midfielder. Granted he could still do a job here for you but all you would be doing is taking away your main midfield asset.

Another thing to consider would be the use of combinations. In my opinion, and experience, I have found that duplicating roles makes your side too predictable on attack, and unless roles are dramatically altered through individual your players will play in flat lines and find the passing outlets limited eg. your players will have no diagonal option, just the choice of a flat pass left/right, or in this case a straight ball up to your twin-targetmen.

Playing a flat 442 is a viable option im sure, but definately consider tailoring your tactic to the players you have, rather than telling your guys to fulfil a role that doesnt suit them. In terms of Central Defenders, check for ability on the ball. If they have some, then play them as Central Defenders, if they have high decisions and passing ability then they should be ball-players, and if they can defend and nothing else, then they should be limited. Is one a big old lump, and the other is more athletic, then stopper/cover is a good option.

In the midfield, ive always found a nice combination is a ball-winning midfielder/deep-lying playmaker. Neither of these roles allow the player to get too high up the pitch, which is what your looking for and staggered roles also ensure a slightly more triangular shape which gives you more passing outlets. The only thing with this sort of setup is your wide players will have to be a bit more attacking or you have no thrust going forward.

Up front twin-targetmen would probably be interesting to watch but definately tailor their roles so they dont play on top of each other. If you stagger the mentalities, you will find one will more likely be able to flick on to the other, but again you might be more advised to employ a big man/little man partnership here. Ultimately its up to you, your the manager, but maybe this will help you a little bit. Im no expert and im now curious as to how this will play out so I think its time for me to load up a game and join the fun. Will update as I go...

Good luck lads

[Ze D'Angola]

davidmcain - Thank you for your input. You have made some very credible points So, would Scott Parker and Mark Noble be effective both on Box-to-Box Midfielder (Support) Duty? That would be after £3,000,000 P/A Kieron Dyer gets his P45!

Would Upson be the Central Defender (Stopper) and Tomkins/Gabbidon be the Central Defender (Cover) for instance?

Norte del Valle Cartel - My new Scunthorpe save is loading as I type... Have you already decided how "The Iron" will play under your tutelage? Joe Murphy will be getting his gloves warm with a Deep Defensive Line and two Defensive Midfielders!

[Norte del Valle Cartel]

I have got my shape for both home/away. At home it's looking good but away it is abysmal. I think choosing Scunthorpe was a poor choice due to the fact that it is so difficult to briing in the type of players we're looking for as they have little money and small wage budget. I will give it a couple of months and then maybe look to try it with a decent side so it will be easier to get the correct players in and then we know it's just the tactic that needs tweaking.

I did manage to bring in the heartbeat of the team in two decent hard working DMs and we've got two big lumps at the back in Rob Jones and Michael Raynes but we're in desperate need of many players. Let me know how it goes for you and it will be interesting to see how our tactics pan out.

[SCIAG]

davidmcain - Thank you for your input. You have made some very credible points So' date=' would Scott Parker and Mark Noble be effective both on Box-to-Box Midfielder (Support) Duty? That would be after £3,000,000 P/A Kieron Dyer gets his P45!

Would Upson be the Central Defender (Stopper) and Tomkins/Gabbidon be the Central Defender (Cover) for instance?

Norte del Valle Cartel - My new Scunthorpe save is loading as I type... Have you already decided how "The Iron" will play under your tutelage? Joe Murphy will be getting his gloves warm with a Deep Defensive Line and two Defensive Midfielders![/quote']

Parker could definitely play that role, but I don't think it suits Noble especially well. He's more of a passer than an all action player. Maybe central midfield (support) would be better for him whilst sticking to your plans?

I'll comment more later, I'm a bit pressed for time.

[RorysRocketThrow]

I'm a Season Ticket holder at Stoke (for many years) and i've watched Tony Pulis football over both of his spells (insert jokes here...) as manager. I'm not sure his brand of football fits into the old fashioned 4-4-2 mantra at all. He certainly adopts the direct approach and he certainly uses two wingers now and again. Sometimes though, he's utilised a lob sided 4-3-3 with one winger and one central midfielder out wide. He has also dabbled with "wide centre halves" at the back, aswell as playing with out and out attacking full backs (first spell in the Championship).

His basic shape is a 4-4-1-1 and always has been at Stoke. The 1 in behind a striker not necessarily being the old fashioned number 10 we're used to. By and large, he's played Mama Sidibe there, and as recently as last season Jon Walters there. Basically a withdrawn target man, good in the air but most importantly works incredibly hard when we are without the ball - often plays on the opposition defensive midfielder to stop quick counter attacks through midfield. Last season Jon Walters did a brilliant job on Paul Scholes against Man United at home, and it was the persistent pressure that saw Scholes uncharacteristically give the ball away for Tuncay to score.

The two full backs, or wide centre halves very rarely cross the halfway line. The two central midfielders are sitting midfielders. Ex Midfielder Dave Brammer described on radio commentary as it being a midfield "cage", which Pulis never likes to see 'empty'. Very rarely, but sometimes against 'easier' opponents will one of them be unleashed and act as a box to box midfielder (often Dean Whitehead because he has the engine). The wingers are where the creativity happens in a Pulis system. They are not the stereotypical chalk on boots wingers because they have the creative freedom to drift in and play off the withdrawn target man (described above). The other striker is the maverick - the other player allowed freedom in a Pulis system. Ricardo Fuller has played this role very well. An advanced forward who pulls into the channels for the second balls off the wingers when they've drifted infield. Plenty of magic in the boots to beat defenders out wide and score spectacular goals from out wide.

That said, i've often tried to recreate this type of football and failed. The closest i've come to is this:

GK

RB - Full Back defend

LB - Full Back defend

CB - Limited defender - defend

CB - Limited defender - defend

RM - Winger - support/attack

LM - Winger - support/attack

CM - Ball winner - defend

CM - Ball winner - defend/support

CF - Target man - support or defensive striker support

CF - Advanced forward

Rigid/Counter/More direct/low creative freedom etc

[Ze D'Angola]

Rory's Throw - Who better qualified than a Stoke fan for this thread! Maybe I should have added Pulis (Stoke/Plymouth Argyle). He didn't have the wage budget at Home Park, as he did with his mate Coates in the first and second spell at the Potteries.

When Tony was a Green, it was very much a use the Wingers for creativity and the Central Midfielders watched the ball go over their head in possession (They were purely there to win the ball back). He did utilize a very effective offside trap with Matt Doumbe (Pacey Tackler) and Elliott Ward (Good on the ball/Dominant aerially) I seem to remember.

We didn't have the players at our disposal to play the withdrawn Target Man (Sidbie/Walters), so instead he used two front men who would run their knackers into the ground (If they were good in the air that was a bonus!).

Norte del Valle Cartel - Maybe Stoke would be an option? Instead of Scunthorpe?

Rory's Throw - Would you be up for it? How would we replicate Tony's set-pieces though?

Thanks to all for keeping this one alive...

[Norte del Valle Cartel]

Have you played any matches yet with your Scunthorpe? I have played 7 league games and will post my tactics, side and results shortly after 2 more matches. I only managed to bring in 2 players and I get the feeling that what I have created will work well with the correct players given that it is doing reasonably well with this current side. Angola check your PMs.

[Norte del Valle Cartel]

That said, i've often tried to recreate this type of football and failed. The closest i've come to is this:

GK

RB - Full Back defend

LB - Full Back defend

CB - Limited defender - defend

CB - Limited defender - defend

RM - Winger - support/attack

LM - Winger - support/attack

CM - Ball winner - defend

CM - Ball winner - defend/support

CF - Target man - support or defensive striker support

CF - Advanced forward

Rigid/Counter/More direct/low creative freedom etc

This is pretty much how I have my team setup but I will post all my settings shortly.

[RorysRocketThrow]

Set Pieces? There isn't a check box for "organised chaos", which is basically the theory we use! A ball into the box, plenty of pushing and shoving and either Shawcross and Huth nodding it in! The AI/Match engine doesn't replicate Rory Delap's throw in's at all. They barely reach the near post when in reality they can and sometimes do reach the far post!

I'm more than happy to assist in creating such a system. Just fire away with any questions.

[Norte del Valle Cartel]

Set Pieces? There isn't a check box for "organised chaos", which is basically the theory we use! A ball into the box, plenty of pushing and shoving and either Shawcross and Huth nodding it in! The AI/Match engine doesn't replicate Rory Delap's throw in's at all. They barely reach the near post when in reality they can and sometimes do reach the far post!

I'm more than happy to assist in creating such a system. Just fire away with any questions.

At Scunthorpe we someone with 16 for long throws but I have not yet bothered to set this up. We are scoring lots of goals from set pieces which is effectively how sides who play like the old Wimbledon reply upon. I have had my squad severley depleted with the loss of our big lump at the back Rob Jones (jump 19 6ft 7) and our new recruit on big wages (£7k pw) in midfield. We also are struggling when it comes to fitness due to not really being unable to rotate.

We're aiming our corners at the far post and free kicks at the far post and best header which is/was working well.

Stats for our big lump Rob Jones Jump 19 Head 15

Pl 8 Scored 2 Assists 3 MoM 2 Av R 7.44

[Norte del Valle Cartel]

This formation to be used at Home and against sides that play on a short pitch:

Attack 442

Philosophy: Very Rigid

Strategy: Attacking

Passing: More Direct

C Freedom: Default

Closing Down: Default

Tackling: More Aggressive

Marking: Zonal

Crosses: Float

Roaming: Default

D Line: Max 20 Push Up

Width: 4 Clicks right Narrow

Temp: Default

TW: Default

F Pass: Mixed (this can be changed ingame shouts)

Counter: Yes

Offsides: Yes

Corners: Far Post

F Kicks: Best Header and Cross Far

Throw Ins: Mix (utilize long throw if you have a quality thrower)

GK: Defend

LB: Fullback/Defend

RB: Fullback/Defend

DCl: Limit Defender/Defend

DCr: Limit Defender/Cover

MCl: Ball Winner/Defend

MCr: Box to Box (remove long shots unless he is really good at them)

ML: Defensive Winger/Support (remove long shots, cross far post)

MR: Defensive Winger/Support (remove long shots and TTBs, Cross Near Post)

STl: Advance Forward (remove long shots)

STr: Target Man/Attack (TTBs Mix and corners challenge keeper)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This tactic to be used when away from home and to close out leads

442 Defend

Philosophy: Very Rigid

Strategy: counter

Passing: More Direct

C Freedom: Default

Closing Down: Default

Tackling: More Aggressive

Marking: Man Marking

Crosses: Float

Roaming: Default

D Line: Degault

Width: 4 Clicks right Narrow

Temp: 17 3 clicks from very end

TW: Sometimes first click

F Pass: Mixed (this can be changed ingame shouts)

Counter: Yes

Offsides: No

GK: Defend

LB: Fullback/Defend

RB: Fullback/Defend (cross aim centre)

DCl: Limit Defender/Defend

DCr: Limit Defender/Cover

MCl: Centre Mid/Defend (remove Long Shots, TTBs Often)

MCr: Centre Mid/Defend (remove Long Shots, TTBs Often)

ML: Wide Midfielder/Attack (remove long shots, TTBs Often, Cross Mix, cross far post)

MR: Wide Midfielder/Attack (remove long shots, Cross Near Post)

STl: Advance Forward (remove long shots and TTBs)

STr: Target Man/Support (TTBs Often and corners challenge keeper)

Let me know what you think of these settings as they have done quite well with Scunthorpe early doors and I am quite confident they will produce decent results with the correct players. I think that the wide midfielders could be tweaked to perform better but I am interested to see what you guys think of these settings.

[davidmcain]

Hey guys,

Pretty close regarding the West Ham examples in post #11. Pretty much exactly what I would do with these two in defense. In midfield I would use Parker as a Box to Box or Deep Lying Playmaker on Support, with Noble possibly as a ball winninng midfielder on defend. Probably not two Box to Box mids as they will play in a line unless their mentality is altered.

As for me I went with Bolton Wanderers. Bit of an overview here is we are predicted 14th and had about 1.5M transfer budget. Out went Gardner, Talyor, Samuel and Ricketts for 10M, and in came Mazuch(CD), Jung(RB), Dorsin(LB), and Sektioui (AMLR). Strongly reccomened Sektioui for just 10k if hes interested. Great cover for out wide. What I was looking for here was depth.

My Lineup and Preffered XI:

Goalkeeper-Defend - Jaaskelainen

Right Fullback - Auto - Steinsson

Ball Playing CB - Defend - Cahill

Centre Defender - Defend - Mazuch

Left Fullback - Auto - Robinson

Right Mid - Winger -Attack - Lee Chung Yong

Ball Winning MF - Defend - Muamba

Deep Lying Playmaker - Support - Holden

Left Mid - Winger - Attack - Petrov

TargetMan - Support - Davies

Poacher - Attack - Sturridge

Key Bench Players - Wheater. Dorsin, Jung, Tamir Cohen, Sektioui, Klasnic, Elmander.

So far in the league we have an 8-2-2 record for 24 points. 4th place 4 points off United. Good wins over Spurs, Man City, Chelsea. Sturridge has 6 and Davies has 10 in the league, good partnership. Only built one tactic. Very broad instructions, so I start on Conrtol mentality and switch to Counter when required or Attack if chasing a game. Key shouts are just Exploit the flanks (esp if opposition are playing narrow), Get Stuck In, and Hassle Opponents. Use OI's advised by the assistant manager. Knocked out in last 16 of League Cup. 1-0 by Man City, probably for the best with my small squad though as we're getting a few injuries. Will update again tomorrow.

[Norte del Valle Cartel]

Sounds good but with this setup you're not actually playing a long ball game which is what we were setting out to achieve.

[Marsupian]

My lower league 4-4-2 is set up like this:

Phylosophy: Balanced

Strategy: Counter

Team instructions all default with zonal marking

FB - support

DC - defend

DC - defend

FB - support

Winger - attack (wide play set to normal)

MC - defend

MC/DLP - support/defend (depends on how attacking I wan't to be)

Winger - attack (wide play set to normal)

Targetman - attack

Advanced forward - attack

[davidmcain]

Sounds good but with this setup you're not actually playing a long ball game which is what we were setting out to achieve.

Maybe I should have mentioned my passing style is "More Direct". A large % of my goals have come from long balls to my targetman flicked onto Sturridge, some coming from my CB's and GK. The only players who are passing shorter are my 2 CM's, though they normally play it wide as my focus is "Down Both Flanks". Currently 3rd equal in January.

[Norte del Valle Cartel]

Maybe I should have mentioned my passing style is "More Direct". A large % of my goals have come from long balls to my targetman flicked onto Sturridge, some coming from my CB's and GK. The only players who are passing shorter are my 2 CM's, though they normally play it wide as my focus is "Down Both Flanks". Currently 3rd equal in January.

Sorry my comment may have sound negative, certainly didn't mean it that way but if you're mentality is control this can hardly be acompplished with a very long ball game it just does not work.. Maybe Im wrong but even with your passing set to more direct, am I right to assume that it's still not virtually one of the last few clicks to the right?

Point I am making was in a friendly with my Stoke City we played away to Glentoran in a friendly we won 9-0, they had 2 shots all game yet we only managed 47% possession! In all our other friendlies the opposition dominated possession but we still murdered them with our very direct approach and pace going forward, carving out many cc's.

[shaunwwfc]

Is it possible to play this style with lets say a Man Utd/Chelsea or even Barca? Would love to start a game with someone with this style of play but feel there will always be a limit.

[Norte del Valle Cartel]

Is it possible to play this style with lets say a Man Utd/Chelsea or even Barca? Would love to start a game with someone with this style of play but feel there will always be a limit.

Yes it's possible with any side but you're correct in that it's limited as you will find that you do not really control possession due to the nature of our passing.

[shaunwwfc]

Yes it's possible with any side but you're correct in that it's limited as you will find that you do not really control possession due to the nature of our passing.

What i meant by limit is in terms of success, for example i could start a career mode, work my way up the leagues fine with this tactic but as soon as a big job comes along with high expectations eg top 4 i wouldnt achieve anything as the players abilities would be better than this tactic - or would you disagree?

EDIT : Btw mate, i strongly recommend you try this tactic - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/263420-Anti-Football-Tactic-%28direct-counter-attack%29 - or at least use it as a base. Very "english" .