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This Game is a Complete Joke!

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It's not your tactics since there is no problem with your tactics - the problem lies with the referee. Yes, you can faff around and use a workaround to use different tactics but this impacts the next season should you get a very different referee, and your tactics base should be for an average-case scenario, using extreme referees as a rare chance to change your tactics slightly to accommodate for this.

Let's say there is a problem with transfers where teams do not sign any players at all, except the human player. This argument is a bit like saying there is no problem with transfers because it's your tactics - because you can deliberately weaken your team to make up for the AI's weakness. Pure rubbish.

My "it's your tactics" comment refers to the amount of cards the referee shows. In my example the same referee in consecutive matches was completely different... the tactics I used were not. In one game he was waving cards around like nobody's business, the next he was more lenient - the difference was the tactics employed by the opposition... they were hard tackling in the first game, less so in the second...

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My "it's your tactics" comment refers to the amount of cards the referee shows. In my example the same referee in consecutive matches was completely different... the tactics I used were not. In one game he was waving cards around like nobody's business, the next he was more lenient - the difference was the tactics employed by the opposition... they were hard tackling in the first game, less so in the second...

Or people were fired up or over-fired up in one match and complacent in the next.

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I dont work for SI so i cannot say, but if champ man is anything to go by then its a very difficult aspect to get even remotely correct.

Its a simulator, there is no getting away from that.

The training module is already in place and overseeing the training is just another abstraction of training, in the same way that 2D and 3D are different ways of looking at the match.

Why is this abstraction not in game? The underlying training engine is in place. Watching training is just another way of looking at things. See Model-View-Controller.

My "it's your tactics" comment refers to the amount of cards the referee shows. In my example the same referee in consecutive matches was completely different... the tactics I used were not. In one game he was waving cards around like nobody's business, the next he was more lenient - the difference was the tactics employed by the opposition... they were hard tackling in the first game, less so in the second...

On average, it will even itself out to the extent that strict referees show more cards than lenient referees - swings between matches are largely immaterial.

Over a whole season, the effects will be felt.

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The training module is already in place and overseeing the training is just another abstraction of training, in the same way that 2D and 3D are different ways of looking at the match.

Why is this abstraction not in game? The underlying training engine is in place. Watching training is just another way of looking at things. See Model-View-Controller.

What would be gained from watching a 3D rep of your players training in its current state? I'm sure if its as simple as you make out Si will have considered it and will have good reasons for not putting it in the game, the con's will out weight the pro's at the moment. thats not to say this wont come later in the game when they either have a better 3D rep or a better training module.

I never said it was a complete sim of being a football manager, but it definitely is one, as you say games are a lot more accesable to the common person, this is a simulator where you have to have a keen knowlage of the subject before you can get the fullest out of it, otherwise its a mess of numbers and stats useless to anyone who doesnt follow football.

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What would be gained from watching a 3D rep of your players training in its current state? I'm sure if its as simple as you make out Si will have considered it and will have good reasons for not putting it in the game, the con's will out weight the pro's at the moment. thats not to say this wont come later in the game when they either have a better 3D rep or a better training module.

I never said watching training had to be 3D. Just that we have to be able to watch training as it is more realistic.

There are no cons - it is realistic, and as you said, it is a simulation therefore it has to be in. No pros, no cons - it's realism.

Another realistic feature would be that the game time must pass in exactly the same way as real-time. 1 second in-game is 1 second in reality. Why is this not implemented? It's more realistic.

I never said it was a complete sim of being a football manager, but it definitely is one, as you say games are a lot more accesable to the common person, this is a simulator where you have to have a keen knowlage of the subject before you can get the fullest out of it, otherwise its a mess of numbers and stats useless to anyone who doesnt follow football.

Care to show me where I said that? A simulator can be accessible to the common person - look at simulation of fractals, for example, generating pretty patterns. A video-game can appeal to research and work, in the same way that some FPS games have been used in studies, and have been modified for war scenarios in armies.

A game is designed for one purpose and that is fun. Football Manager is not a simulator - it is not designed for educational purposes, modelling or design. It is meant to be fun to play. What you put into the game you cannot really take out - you don't learn anything from playing Football Manager, but you learn a lot by using a flight simulator.

Football Manager is a game, not a simulation. It is just that it is a game that has realism as a key factor. And there is a big difference between a realistic game and a simulator. Football Manager falls in the former - otherwise it would be in scientific or engineering journals, rather than Gamespot or IGN.

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Quote ' This is the first FM game i have to give up. I'am going back to FM 10. '

I have had no crash dumps on this version of the game but on FM2010 I had loads. If I were you I would learn how to manage your players and training correctly this is not a bug. Players do get injured. In my last season however my team remained injury free apart from the odd niggle which kept them out for a few days at a time. Lucky I guess.

Anyway go back to FM2010 which for me was alot more buggy than this version of the game and with crash dumps. So good luck on your venture to find a bug free game.

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I liked the jambos love in earlier in the thread, at least some people out there have sense :)

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A second of life for a second in game is a laughable idea.

Of course it's laughable - which is why Football Manager is a game not a simulator.

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Of course it's laughable - which is why Football Manager is a game not a simulator.

Ok so are you saying the first flight simulators were not simulators? As they were not as complicated as the newest flight simulators?

Also i am wondering if any flight simulators are actually simulators as they do appear on websites like IGN metacritic etc....maybe i am just wrong?

http://pc.ign.com/objects/792/792287.html

So do my eyes decieve me? Or is this a simulator on IGN? Or maybe according to you flight simulator x is not a flight simulator and just a game?

PS: Football Manager 2011 (abbreviated to Football Manager 11 or FM11) is a football manager simulation video game

You better run to wikipedia and ask them to quickly change this before people get confused and call football manager a simulation again....quick....

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Of course it's laughable - which is why Football Manager is a game not a simulator.

Please, Continue?

EDIT: to Glen: isn't the point of Flight Simulator games, that you fly the plane real time? e.g Flight to place X takes 8 hours, so in-game it takes 8 hours?

Probably not the best example to support your argument

Double Edit: just to clarify, i support the suggestion that FM is both a game and a simulation.

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FM is a simulation game.

Flight Simulators released on PCs are also games.

Flight Simulators used for Air Force training are actual simulations.

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Ok so are you saying the first flight simulators were not simulators? As they were not as complicated as the newest flight simulators?

No, I'm saying that Football Manager is a game.

Also i am wondering if any flight simulators are actually simulators as they do appear on websites like IGN metacritic etc....maybe i am just wrong?

Strictly-speaking, most are flight-simulator games.

http://pc.ign.com/objects/792/792287.htmhttp://pc.ign.com/objects/792/792287.html

So do my eyes decieve me? Or is this a simulator on IGN? Or maybe according to you flight simulator x is not a flight simulator and just a game?

The Microsoft Flight Simulator series is a unique series in the sense that it is one of the few flight simulators (originally marketed as a game, mind), that has been successful as a pure simulator. It is an exception, not the rule.

PS: Football Manager 2011 (abbreviated to Football Manager 11 or FM11) is a football manager simulation video game

You better run to wikipedia and ask them to quickly change this before people get confused and call football manager a simulation again....quick....

Do you see the "video game" at the end of that sentence?

It simulates reality to some extent - this does not necessarily make it a pure simulator as such. It just happens to attempt to model reality quite a bit.

Most games have some degree of reality - Grand Theft Auto uses an Earth-like world with human beings and Earth physics, for example, but this doesn't make it a simulator.

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"It just happens to model reality quite a bit?"

Seriously?

Oh dear.

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1)It was resolved but has returned and it is groundbreaking; whether it works for or against you. Key players end up missing matches that they shouldnt be missing..many matches after the 10th yellow. Its absurd to look at a league card history and have the top 2 teams have twice the cards as the league median.

There should be no groundbreaking issues at this point in the release. Thats the point. Just because they dont happen to any one of us doesnt mean they arent ruining someone elses gaming experience.

chiek tiote in real life has ammounted up 13 yellows this season so far and if he gets 2 more by the end of the season he will miss another 3 games

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"It just happens to model reality quite a bit?"

Seriously?

Oh dear.

What's wrong with that?

A lot of games model reality, but are games in their own right - for example, The Sims models life, but with lots of twists for gaming purposes. Few games are based on no reality at all - for example, Rez.

However, they are not considered simulators.

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What's wrong with that?

A lot of games model reality, but are games in their own right - for example, The Sims models life, but with lots of twists for gaming purposes. Few games are based on no reality at all - for example, Rez.

However, they are not considered simulators.

I think whats wrong is that above you were vehemently arguing it was purely a game and to simulate reality it needed to simulate pointless stuff like driving to work and 1 second in game = 1 second in real life.

Its very much a simulation game, its not just a game in the sense you were suggesting. There have been pure game footie managers made, like that weird EA one about 5 years ago from some German dev team which had no basis in reality except for the names and clubs. It was kinda fun in a perverse way but totally silly, and clearly showed the difference between Sim-game and pure game.

Similar parralels can be seen in many other genres, games like Forza and Gran Turismo are racing sim games, where as burnout and drift (etc) are pure games.

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I think whats wrong is that above you were vehemently arguing it was purely a game and to simulate reality it needed to simulate pointless stuff like driving to work and 1 second in game = 1 second in real life.

Its very much a simulation game, its not just a game in the sense you were suggesting. There have been pure game footie managers made, like that weird EA one about 5 years ago from some German dev team which had no basis in reality except for the names and clubs. It was kinda fun in a perverse way but totally silly, and clearly showed the difference between Sim-game and pure game.

Similar parralels can be seen in many other genres, games like Forza and Gran Turismo are racing sim games, where as burnout and drift (etc) are pure games.

A simulation game is not a simulator though - a simulator is meant to purely simulate, while a video game has a purpose to entertain.

If you want to use "simulator" in a broader sense, then pretty much every game nowadays is a simulator, which nobody considers in that way.

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the amount of time i read the " i have played this game since the championship manager days" what has that got to do with anything, also this is a very big game fair enough some bugs are amazing how they havnt seen them, but theres going to be bigs theres bugs on all games and to be honest i have put a lot of hours into this game with top teams and lower teams and its all been fine for me

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What makes FM11 frustrating at times is that it tries to be both a game and a simulator. A game can be mastered and beaten whereas a simulator is intended to closely model real world results. Since players can largely figure out the part of the game that is based mainly on their input (i.e., tactics), their input can grossly disrupt the sense of "realism" central to a simulation. To remedy this, SI have placed increasing importance on areas of the game where player input produces more random and obscure results (e.g., team talks and press conferences) and introduced mechanisms that render player input increasingly irrelevant if it veers too far away from "realistic" results (e.g., complacency, nerfed one-on-ones, lower reputation team super goalies). The reason this is frustrating is that it makes the player feel as if his input doesn't really matter and that the initial effort he put into the game was, more or less, a waste of time.

This is why it's imperative that SI get back to basics with FM12 and really focus on beefing up the tactical AI. I don't know anyone who finds the so-called "psychological" aspect of the game to be either fun or particularly realistic, and yet, FM11 focused primarily on expanding these tedious aspects and greatly increasing their influence on the match engine.

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the amount of time i read the " i have played this game since the championship manager days" what has that got to do with anything, also this is a very big game fair enough some bugs are amazing how they havnt seen them, but theres going to be bigs theres bugs on all games and to be honest i have put a lot of hours into this game with top teams and lower teams and its all been fine for me

I have played CM/FM for 17 years and I have never heard anyone else say that in here!

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This is why it's imperative that SI get back to basics with FM12 and really focus on beefing up the tactical AI. I don't know anyone who finds the so-called "psychological" aspect of the game to be either fun or particularly realistic, and yet, FM11 focused primarily on expanding these tedious aspects and greatly increasing their influence on the match engine.

The effect of motivational elements has been reduced in MEs over the last few years. The bolded statement is pure nonsense.

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Some people will never agree that the game is realistic, because they do not want it to be so. They would prefer noone to ever be injured, their star striker to score in every single game, and their team to never lose.

This debate happens about twice a day on here, I don't get why so many people rise to the bait.

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I have played CM/FM for 17 years and I have never heard anyone else say that in here!

Believe me, a large % of complaint/rant threads start with this:)

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This is the first FM game i have to give up. I'am going back to FM 10.

.

I bet half of the guys saying that said"This is the first FM game i have to give up. I'am going back to FM 09" last year.

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That they are, but you tell that to people who are complaining about injuries they don't tend to take it too well! ;)

When is the problem of owning a team in every category but ending up losing or drawing going to be fixed

The amount of games where you outshoot the cpu heavily and have a high on target and clear cut chance rating compared to the cpu who seems to score on every little chance on target. It happens all the time far too often to be realistic in any way.

Do the ratings of players shot accuracy mean anything in this game? of course there are other factors but they musn't mean crap if players seem to score all their chances when playing the the user.

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When is the problem of owning a team in every category but ending up losing or drawing going to be fixed

The amount of games where you outshoot the cpu heavily and have a high on target and clear cut chance rating compared to the cpu who seems to score on every little chance on target. It happens all the time far too often to be realistic in any way.

Do the ratings of players shot accuracy mean anything in this game? of course there are other factors but they musn't mean crap if players seem to score all their chances when playing the the user.

This is either a motivation issue or a tactical one... I'd say the former, others would say the latter, perhaps it's a mixture of the two?

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When is the problem of owning a team in every category but ending up losing or drawing going to be fixed

The amount of games where you outshoot the cpu heavily and have a high on target and clear cut chance rating compared to the cpu who seems to score on every little chance on target. It happens all the time far too often to be realistic in any way.

Do the ratings of players shot accuracy mean anything in this game? of course there are other factors but they musn't mean crap if players seem to score all their chances when playing the the user.

I would imagine as soon as FIFA introduce a rule that states the dominate team must be awarded a win because its unfair otherwise......

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Believe me, a large % of complaint/rant threads start with this:)

believe me, I was ironic-sarcastic ;)

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no football manager simulates being a football manager, not being a human being.

Lulz.

I don't get comparing the Leicester card example as a bug. one team has 23 cards. One team has 5 cards. Median is what? 14? Thats not bad for October if you look at real life. 23 cards in what? ~12 games? 2 per game? I've seen worse IRL.

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The only bad thing about the game is that it gets really slow after 4 seasons (regens and staff overload) its really annoying, my computer keep on crashing

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The only bad thing about the game is that it gets really slow after 4 seasons (regens and staff overload) its really annoying, my computer keep on crashing

Thats not really a problem with the game tho, thats your computer being rubbish, or your trying to run too many leagues at once. I am now 16 seasons in, the game still runs at a good speed for me.

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What makes FM11 frustrating at times is that it tries to be both a game and a simulator. A game can be mastered and beaten whereas a simulator is intended to closely model real world results. Since players can largely figure out the part of the game that is based mainly on their input (i.e., tactics), their input can grossly disrupt the sense of "realism" central to a simulation. To remedy this, SI have placed increasing importance on areas of the game where player input produces more random and obscure results (e.g., team talks and press conferences) and introduced mechanisms that render player input increasingly irrelevant if it veers too far away from "realistic" results (e.g., complacency, nerfed one-on-ones, lower reputation team super goalies). The reason this is frustrating is that it makes the player feel as if his input doesn't really matter and that the initial effort he put into the game was, more or less, a waste of time.

This is why it's imperative that SI get back to basics with FM12 and really focus on beefing up the tactical AI. I don't know anyone who finds the so-called "psychological" aspect of the game to be either fun or particularly realistic, and yet, FM11 focused primarily on expanding these tedious aspects and greatly increasing their influence on the match engine.

I love it... I find it immensely rewarding and fun to "get it right"...

In any case, everybody is focusing on the wrong things... the biggest issue with this game is the flaming match-odds... they dictate your players beliefs...

If you are odds-on favourites, then your players expect to win (and expect you to demand of them); if you are big outsiders then your players expect to lose, or at least struggle, and expect you to take the pressure off them; if it's tight (i.e. 6/4 home 7/4 away) then your players expect a close game and for you to offer them encouragement...

Now you might say that is fine... until you are the team at the top of the league and romping it and you come up against that oh so tough away game v the bottom team who have yet to register a point and the flipping match-odds have the home team as odds-on favourites... say what? This is where the game's biggest flaw is, because the match odds have a massive influence on your players yet they are seldom right...

In real-life if Manchester United were playing West Ham at Upton Park on Saturday, they would be BIG favourites... in FM the Hammers would be odds-on...

If anything at all needs changing within the game it is the match-odds and the influence they have on your players, get them right and the game becomes easier because how many would ignore the match-odds and "expect a win" against a winless team with a dominant one? Most people? Exactly! And then they would complain that their team played like my local pub team whilst the winless team played like Barcelona and it would all be because of the match-odds...

Fix the match-odds SI!

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I love it... I find it immensely rewarding and fun to "get it right"...

In any case, everybody is focusing on the wrong things... the biggest issue with this game is the flaming match-odds... they dictate your players beliefs...

If you are odds-on favourites, then your players expect to win (and expect you to demand of them); if you are big outsiders then your players expect to lose, or at least struggle, and expect you to take the pressure off them; if it's tight (i.e. 6/4 home 7/4 away) then your players expect a close game and for you to offer them encouragement...

Now you might say that is fine... until you are the team at the top of the league and romping it and you come up against that oh so tough away game v the bottom team who have yet to register a point and the flipping match-odds have the home team as odds-on favourites... say what? This is where the game's biggest flaw is, because the match odds have a massive influence on your players yet they are seldom right...

In real-life if Manchester United were playing West Ham at Upton Park on Saturday, they would be BIG favourites... in FM the Hammers would be odds-on...

If anything at all needs changing within the game it is the match-odds and the influence they have on your players, get them right and the game becomes easier because how many would ignore the match-odds and "expect a win" against a winless team with a dominant one? Most people? Exactly! And then they would complain that their team played like my local pub team whilst the winless team played like Barcelona and it would all be because of the match-odds...

Fix the match-odds SI!

Yes I have noticed this too. Another thing is that if a club like Manchester United finds themselves in mid-table positions for years on end, they are still very hard to beat! It is like having skilled players and a high reputation just trumps anything else. Form and morale doesn't seem to matter for the AI teams, hence, the winless team playing fantastic football scoring fantastic goals as you say. So on one hand you have underperforming super-teams playing like they always do against you, and on the other hand you have awful teams playing fantasticly against you... I don't get it! Is it the team tallks, or the tactics - or both? Or none?

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That they are, but you tell that to people who are complaining about injuries they don't tend to take it too well! ;)

Yesterday Sanchez broken for 7 months and Abdi discovered a heart problem, so out for 12/13 months. I don't complain this (it happens I mean), I complain the fact that Abdi, who was co-owned with Milan, was bought by Milan at the end of the year :) ahahahaha

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I am beginning to think this game is a joke. In FM 2008 and 2009, crash dumps kept on occouring, I would have thought you would have reduced this however I moved on to FM2010 and thought there would be reduced crash dumps but I am extremely dissappointed to find they are still occouring and by browsing the forums they are as common as ever. If you do not do something to remedy this and soon you will start to lose many players who have been loyal to this game for many years. I spend hours on this game but it is beginning to **** me off and I know talking to others that thei fool the same.

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I started a new game yesterday with Hibs and on the first day of my new save my best midfielder Liam Miller gets injured in training for two months.

Ah - that definitly proves that injuries are bugged then!.....

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I've had enough of this game. Too Many Bugs, Crash Dumps and Injures. This is the worst Football Manager Game ever made. I have been playing these games since Championship Manager days. This is the first FM game i have to give up. I'am going back to FM 10.

Also an idea for FM 12. Fix all the Bugs and Crash Dumps before it gets released.

Strange FM09, FM10 and FM11 all have the same issues as you have stated and the injuries are the least of this game's worries.

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