Analysing the 4-2-3-1: Why Your Playmaker Should Be Upfront.

SFraser · March 23, 2011

My save is progressing nicely, and a goal I just scored in the European Cup Semi Final neatly shows a tactical concept I have been talking about for a while on these forums. It's about time for a tactical thread from me anyway I think.

It's a simple tactical concept and it logically follows from tactical concepts that have re-emerged over the past few years in both real life and in FM and it's community.

The 4-2-3-1

Tactics are very fluid in FM due to being very player dependant. Without altering instructions or making one role different from another it is possible to radically change the playstyle and function of your team through sheer virtue of how X player chooses to go about his game. Tactical tweaking for me is about establishing a basic system for how I want my team to play in general and then altering it by using shouts and by player selection. Occasionally I will delve into the guts of my team and tinker but this is usually experimental to see if I can make the overall unit play better, or when I come up against an opponent with a particularly mean angle of attack.

Now the way I have set up my team means that the shouts that affect things like Try Through Balls or Run From Deep or Longshots etc. wont work. All the shouts do for my players is alter Mentality, Closing Down, Tackling, Marking, Tempo, Timewasting and Directness of Passing. In short the shouts enable me to control my unit as a unit without disrupting all my carefully balanced and set up roles.

Those carefully balanced and set up roles are however predominately "everything set to mixed". I have RFD Often for my Fullbacks, TTB Often for my CM's and a whole bunch of rares for my Centrebacks, but that's about it. The football my team plays is not based on my instructions but their abilities and intelligence. What I control is the shape they play in, who plays where, and how aggressively I want my team to attack or defend as a unit.

It is one of the most simple overall tactical philosophies you are likely to find on these forums but it has one significant advantage. I don't have to set up XYZ role, all I need to do is find a player that looks like XYZ role and play him to get the desired effect. If I play an outright winger on the wing he will play like a winger because nothing is stopping him from doing so and that is what he does. If I play an Inside Forward he plays like an Inside Forward for the same reason. The key is getting players that actually prefer to play in a certain way, in knowing how a player likes to play and then putting him in the right place with the right people around him.

My system is immensely flexible tactically precisely because I don't go into role detail. With a whole bunch of generic playing instructions the role performed is entireally up to the player I start.

I choose to play the 4-2-3-1 because it is a defensively strong shape. With sufficient quality upfront I can play two Holding Midfielders and protect the Centrebacks very well. It is also the shape that enables the greatest amount of modern day tactical flexibility in my opinion. It is the shape upon which was based the Spanish Striker and Playmaker "wingers" at the World Cup and in many ways I am attempting to emulate the Spanish side but with my own personal touches to it.

In this match I was prevented from playing my defensively strongest back line due to injuries. I also had other tactical issues to consider given the unusual shape of the Juventus team. I was tempted to alter my formation but I am loathe to let the AI disrupt an excellent formula and always prefer to force the AI to play against my system.

To keep my current shape while being able to effectively deal with the immense threat through the middle I opted for an AMC with immense Strength and Workrate, as well as relatively high Positioning and Tackling attributes. While his Composure, Movement and Creativity are immense he is not my most outright "theoretically" lethal AMC. He is more like a really strong MCa playmaker.

Due to the reduction in threat coming through the middle, and by reduction in threat I mean Shelvey's lack of range of threat such as Dribbling or outrageous Creativity or immense Flair and Longshots or high Teamwork, I had to plan a line of attacking threat coming from elsewhere. As much as the Juventus formation is very strong in one dimension, it is also obviously weak in another. So my attacking plan was to employ dual Inside Forwards with high Off The Ball Movement, Acceleration, Flair and Determination. Their movement would give my somewhat slow and robust midfield plenty of targets to hit with their excellent Vision and Passing.

However that is just my basic tactical plan that is implimented through player selection rather than role tweaking, and is not what this thread is about. What this thread is about is my own personal "evolution" to the rapidly evolving 4-2-3-1 in world football.

Playmaker Up Front

The Juventus back 6 of Goalkeeper, four defenders and brutal Holding Midfielder is a common sight in modern football. Indeed I said that I use two Holding Midfielders, albeit in the CM slots. While Inside Forwards exploiting the reduced defensive cover of the flanks is nothing new and is very tactically sound, it is my view that playing a pure Striker upfront is not tactically sound.

Look at that defence and then look at the Passing/Creativity of your own Inside Forwards. Most Inside Forwards are not the ultimate playmakers of world football although they are lethal, and there is no way that a striker in the lone striker position in my 4-2-3-1 is going to get alot of supply coming directly through the middle. Having a player that is looking to peel off defenders and get into goalscoring positions here is a waste of a player. The centre is too immensely defender and the wide players are simply not going to carve open defences with epic throughballs very often.

Ofcourse you can always play Playmakers on your flanks, and sometimes I do just that, but I wanted more movement from my wide players as my CM's need options, and the average wide playmaker is not going to destroy fullbacks with speed and movement.

Indeed with the Wide Players in modern football becoming ever more like Pure Strikers in terms of actual function, it makes sense that you want a playmaker centrally to feed them into goalscoring positions. A playmaker is one of the few types of players that is going to be able to get any change out of the heart of defences like the Juventus system.

The squad numbers in my formation tell the entire story. My number 9, my striker, plays left wing and my number 10, my playmaker, plays upfront on his own. That's my tactical theory, that's my tactical development, that's my tactical evolution. Now does it actually work?

In the above image we see the state of play after Juventus have taken a throw-in and Chiellini has powered through and nodded the ball to Aguero.

My midfield is very deep and very narrow, producing a nice shield shape ahead of the defence that should force play wide should Juventus get the ball. It doesn't look very threatening at the minute however.

Douglas Costa the No. 11 is wide Right, looking to attack the space he is enjoying down that flank. He has the PPM "Moves into Channels".

Rooney here has the PPM "Comes deep to Collect Ball" and has a very high rating for Free Role as shown by being called a "Forward" and not "Striker". He has roaming ticked and so is not looking to attack the back four with a run, he is looking to drop into space and behave like a playmaker.

As the Right Footed Aguero naturally dribbles infield so the move develops.

Alaba at leftback marches over the half way line while Chiellini sprints back into position.

Sandro moves towards the ball to support Aguero (but it's too tight for him to be of use over there) while Ramirez number 14 holds his position.

The remaining three advanced player are interesting. First Douglas Costa starts moving into a threatening position and is looking for gaps to exploit from the right flank. Second Shelvey with his high Off The Ball and Work Rate has started making an attacking run forward.

Rooney however has still not bombed forward. He could have looked to split the Juventus 22 and 13 at any point in this move but A: it is not his instructions and B: it is not his playstyle. What Rooney has done instead is plant himself firmly in the middle of an ocean of space infront of the Juventus defence.

With a lovely struck pass between the Juventus 4 and 16 Aguero finds Rooney. Rooney lets the ball roll across his body and turns onto his right foot. Aguero has found the playmaker and the damage is done.

Rooney is on to his strongest foot 20 yards from goal with players making runs ahead of him into the gap that has appeared in the Juventus centre. Douglas Costas movement has taken him right across the back line and he is running at speed into the gap. Shelvey has continued forward and although the Juventus 8 has tracked his run he is behind Shelvey and will not be able to prevent him getting the ball.

When the playmaker lets the ball roll across his body he finds two players pouring into the centre of the Juventus defence. So what does the playmaker do?

He sticks the ball in the top corner... My playmaker is Wayne Rooney after all.

Cleon · March 23, 2011

I didn't reserve any posts underneath my OP for updates, which in hindsight was a bad idea because I have something completely relevant to this thread that I thought would be highly interesting to anyone that has read it. Anyway...

So I'm posting this on behalf of SFraser. This post has nothing to do with me and is all his work

Analysing the 4-2-3-1: Why Your Playmaker Should Be Upfront: Update

A highly impressive 4-1 defeat of Juventus in Turin with the same overall shape and gameplan but a few minor tweaks to personell (my alternative right winger played well in the matches beforehand and won himself a start) paved the way for a highly satisfying end to the season.

The 31st of May ends a month of intense contests, prize money, glorious success and enthusiastic press conferences from the manager. It ends a season that was tougher, more enjoyable, more micro-managed, more studiously poured over and more successful than the last. A season that saw me, finally, achieve this:

My name is listed in the club I love dearly alongside those individuals that I have most worshipped in the sport that is my passion since I was born. I am listed alongside Cantona, Giggs, Keano!, but most of all and by a margin that is immeasurable, Alex Ferguson. A fellow Scotsman, untamable Lord of the Game, the man that is to Football Manager what God is to Peter Molyneux's "Black and White".

It's only a game, but still...

Alas, however, the end of another season marks the end of another year in the cruelly short careers of truly great players. For me it marks the end of the season that is the 29th year in the life of my club captain, my leader, my constant top goalscorer, my tactical tour de force, my inspiration and image of myself on the pitch. Wayne Rooney. For seasons now I have watched the digits on his timer click unstoppably upwards. Nothing I can do in this game can prevent the player that has been at the heart of my team since day one from getting older. It's a constant irritation that has slowly grown into a wail of impending doom, for I know Rooney can't go on forever.

Even I, the man that brought you the "triangle of development" and the "training notch theory" and the knowledge of the vital importance of Stamina and the actual relevance of Intense Physical Training in Pre-Season and every single other thing I have contributed to these forums and to others in my time actively writing about FM, knows that at best Rooney has a maximum of two years left at his peak, fates providing an easy path and manager providing every element of his FM knowledge. While Rooney's carrer could theoretically continue untill he is near 40, his current level of overall performance in my team has two years left at it's absolute maximum.

Armed with this knowledge I have already been training him to play in a deeper role that requires much less of his Pace and Acceleration, the "meaty attributes" I am willing to sacrifice wholesale to maintain his overall level of performance in other areas as long as it is physically possible to do so. I have for Rooney mapped out a path of Striker turn AMC turn MC turn DMC, but I ofcourse do value the team above all else, but no one wants to lose the heartbeat of a team if he can perform a heartbeating job elsewhere.

As the season ends, the 31st of May is met and the players go on holiday, the manager is left with hoardes of free time. And the managers mind automatically turns to what to spend next seasons transfer budget on.

Do I want a Goalkeeper? I have a 41 year old perfectionist backup, an 18 year old Rotation I have been developing since age 15, a 29 year old First Teamer who can lose all his physical attributes and only get better as a goalkeeper, and I have 3 under-18 players that my ass man rates highly.

Do I want a defender? I have already dealt with the age related defensive crisis at Manchester United through youth and purchases and retraining and if anything I have over-compensated in defence. I am not sure I can develop all my awesome young defenders to their full potential because I don't have enough mentors. An ironic error, but still one that can be learned from. As all good errors are.

Do I want a central midfielder? In truth yes, but one that is 15. My first team is awash with plenty of players that are excellent in CM and my three genuine CM's get plenty of games, but I lack any real, genuine, superb youth options in CM.

Do I want an attacking midfielder? No, if anything I have too many and only being brutally harsh with low performance ratings (i.e dropping players) has staved off any "too much competition" problems, ironicly.

Do I want a pure Striker? I already have a "God-in-waiting" for Rooney's role you may have met him before, Jaume. And I will still have Rooney at his peak for about two seasons, then Rooney below his peak for a few more. I still have Berbatov, and a few brash and exciting youngsters that don't have the greatest of potential but still seem excitable enough to score goals when I play them.

So what do I want?

Building For The Future

What I want is a replacement for Rooney, but there are none. I have checked. In depth. As much as I possibly could. Unsurprisingly my FM world is not awash with a multitude of "Rooney's in the making".

But what I really want is an effective team. And I believe my tactical premise is fundamentally lethal. If I cannot find another Rooney to continue what I currently have then I want to find players that will join my team, reshuffle it a bit in terms of personell, but then produce an even more potent whole. I want to improve my team as a unit so that it is even more potent along the tactical lines I think work profoundly well.

I would dearly love for any change I make to get the best out of the players I play. I want my changes to enhance my team.

And this leads me back to Rooney. For I have trained Rooney to play deeper but when I play Rooney deeper and Jaume upfront my team is not significantly better. My team plays worse. My previous plan of dropping Rooney deep and playing Jaume upfront so far seems to show that it is not going to be as good as my current system. This is bad.

I also want to get the best or get better out of my current under-performers. Players that look like they should be awesome but when I play them are distinctly underwhelming. An addition or change to a team should benefit a team. Should enhance the performances of players like this:

Ozil looks amazing but when I play him left wing he looks isolated and when I play him through the middle he looks uninterested and weak. I know he is a great player, I have seen him do things no one else can do, I am battling my guts out to raise his Determination, but still he wont fulfill his ability. What else can I do?

Ozil a genius but when I play him in midfield his underwhelms. My next management decision I hope is one capable of getting the best out of Ozil. He seems unable to play where he is supposed to be good at playing. No height, strength, workerate for the middle and far too flamboyant for the wing. He should be a footballing good, but he is about third choice at the minute,

But likewise I have the issue of Rooney and Jaume to contend with. The plan to drop the battleaxe, creative and flamboyant Rooney into midfield behind the potent and lethal Jaume makes sense, but on the field it completely sucks. Rooneys strengths cancel out Jaumes weaknesses and Jaumes strengths cancel out Rooneys weaknesses for a pretty average combination. Sure I am a wall of fanatical purpose in defence when you get the ball beyond my striker, but if I have any intention in FM it is quite simply not to be Rafa's Liverpool. I will willingly take on the principles of Liverpools defensive strength in the Champions League several years ago, but first and foremost my ambition is to slice teams apart.

It's not an ambition to be fair, at the level I play at slicing teams apart is a fundamental necessity.

So the question remained, in thie coming season how do I improve my team?

Playmaker Upfront

Yes that's right, I intend to retrain Mesut Ozil to play as a lone striker. The guy is a horrible striker and a terrific playmaker, so I am training him to play upfront.

Yup, only me. You saw it here first.

Does he differ all that much from Rooney? In terms of being a striker, not heaps. His Off the Ball is a fraction lower, overall pace is probably higher, anticipation equal, composure about 3 points lower and the same for Finishing. He isn't a striker, but we kinda gathered that from this whole topic. What he is, is a rediculously good playmaker with bags of pace, teamwork, dribbling skills and movement.

Ozil behind Rooney didnt work for the simple reason Ozil wasnt a good AMC in terms of involvement and action and effort. Rooney is an awesome AMC in terms of involvement and action and effort but his accuracy lets him down. But in this system the playmaker is not the AMC. The playmaker is the CF. The "strikers" come from players running onto his passes and can you think of a system better than Wayne Rooney running from AMC and Aguero running from AML onto the passes from the CF Ozil?

I will be honest, this sounds like it could be the cleverest thing I have ever done FM. I havn't done it yet but the brainwave excited me so much I wanted to stick it in this thread.

Now let's see if it fails.

Not sure what to do in the off-season? That's when all good managers should be redesigning their teams.

TBell95 · March 23, 2011

If you look at his screenshots you can see he is far from been light at the back. He has players positioned perfectly to deal with a quick breaking counter attack.

Is this down to players decisions and positioning attributes then? And would Rooney be on Attack duty or Support?

Romanista1994 · March 23, 2011

This is really good stuff SFraser. I am currently playing as Man U with the very same formation, but i am having difficulties in creating CCC's, and therefore scoring goals. This thread has been very useful in helping me try and find a way for Rooney to create space by dropping deep like this. What mentality do both your CM's have, because it seems like Sandro is more advanced than Ramirez, and therefore with Alaba bombing forward it must leave you a bit light at the back?

From an older thread I remember his CM's having the same mentality (as did the rest of the team bar the CB's) and I think it still applies here. Indeed if you look at first two screenshots you can see Sandro going towards the man with the ball and in the third, where the action has moved to the front, he has dropped back in a line with Ramirez.

I also don't think his back line is light. You must consider the players he has staying back: a RB who would play centrally for any other team in the world and Vidic and Chiellini, who really don't need an introduction.

I'm not SFraser, though, and he can certainly answer your questions better.

As to the thread itself, a great read. :thup:

TBell95 · March 23, 2011

From an older thread I remember his CM's having the same mentality (as did the rest of the team bar the CB's) and I think it still applies here. Indeed if you look at first two screenshots you can see Sandro going towards the man with the ball and in the third, where the action has moved to the front, he has dropped back in a line with Ramirez.
I also don't think his back line is light. You must consider the players he has staying back: a RB who would play centrally for any other team in the world and Vidic and Chiellini, who really don't need an introduction.

I'm not SFraser, though, and he can certainly answer your questions better.

As to the thread itself, a great read.

I realise that now thanks, i was just speaking from experience, because i play the same formation but still get caught out on the counter. this may be down to my lack of tactical knowledge, or just that my backline isnt as good?

mikewalker · March 23, 2011

Wonderful stuff, there's been some brilliant posts in this vein of late.

Cleon · March 23, 2011

I realise that now thanks, i was just speaking from experience, because i play the same formation but still get caught out on the counter. this may be down to my lack of tactical knowledge, or just that my backline isnt as good?

Or it could be due to things like closing down settings to high, run from deep, PPM's etc. I've no doubt that SFraser as accounted for all that.

TBell95 · March 23, 2011

Or it could be due to things like closing down settings to high, run from deep, PPM's etc. I've no doubt that SFraser as accounted for all that.

Ah right, well due to my lack of tactical knowledge i try not to alter the player instructions too much. I do use high pressing though which may be a factor, thanks for pointing this out

mdbussen · March 23, 2011

I'm really glad to see you posting so much SFraser as it is always interesting reading for me. Another insightful thread, as always!

If you have the time and inclination, could you take a second to speak about how you set up your defensive tactics for this match? I only ask because I struggle setting up my team defensively and I can see an obvious weakness in the 4-2-3-1 when coming up against a 4-1-2-1-2 - namely, how do you deal with Diego playing in the AMC position?

Also, Pato playing for Juventus?!?? :O

Arianyr · March 23, 2011

Another great read. This is currently also my favorite setup (4 2 3 1 with 2 inside forwards). But I employ more passing ability in the deeplying forward role; players like Kaka. In the situation you described I personally would have preferred to have seen a pass to your #11.

I also make sure that I can 'shift' my 3 central midfielders from MC MC AMC to DMC MC MC. or DMC DMC MC. I find that can make a world of difference in some matches. For example I would have used the DMC MC MC in the match you showed here because now Diego appears to have a lot of freedom.

What are your team settings? I play rigid with more creativity and roaming.

SFraser · March 23, 2011

I'm really glad to see you posting so much SFraser as it is always interesting reading for me. Another insightful thread, as always!
If you have the time and inclination, could you take a second to speak about how you set up your defensive tactics for this match? I only ask because I struggle setting up my team defensively and I can see an obvious weakness in the 4-2-3-1 when coming up against a 4-1-2-1-2 - namely, how do you deal with Diego playing in the AMC position?

Well it may seem like a daft answer but the way to deal with Diego and Juventus is to win the ball. By having high Workrate throughout my team I was able to press high up the pitch knowing full well that my midfielders would quickly drop back into their midfield positions. Shelvey was key to my excellent start by pushing up next to Rooney and harrassing the deep players along with Aguero and Costa. The high workrate of Rooney and Shelvey, 19 and 18 respectively, meant that I continually harrassed Juiventus through the middle, they had no easy outballs to the flanks because of my wingers, and their distribution was poor. My deeper players, barring Alaba, are all Positionally excellent, excellent in the air and have high Anticipation. It was actually pretty easy for me to get the ball back off Juventus and indeed my first goal came from Rooney tackling a Centreback and slamming a shot past Buffon.

On the rare occasions Juventus got hold of the ball my high workrate midfield would drop into a triangle shape ahead of my defence and chase players around the midfield. Diego is not actually a smart player under intense pressure. His movement, composure, teamwork and anticipation are all quite low, nor is he particularly strong or hard working. So while he does have some awesome dribbling skills and high creativity, in a crowded centre full of hardworking midfielders he isn't really up to much.

While Shelvey was a crucial tactical choice, the player that actually got to grips with the game and dominated the pitch was Sandro. In this midfield battle his immense awareness and powerful physique dominated. When you have a player with 17 Strength, 17 Jumping, 17 Agility and 19 Anticipation you really notice him dominating the intense midfield battle. He was all over the place like a spring chicken, even once surging clean past three Juventus players straight into the box.

In short the tremendous workrate of my midfield trio made up for being numerically disadvantaged, as I had hoped. While the Juventus midfield was not to be sniffed at they were ultimately outfought and played like a team that was missing several men. Not only was my midfield a match for theirs due to workrate, but I had players on the flanks capable of doing a devestating attacking job. They didn't. My players had options other than through the no-mans-land of midfield, theirs didn't.

Unfortunately Sandro took a heavy knock and from then on the match turned. Juventus scored twice in the dying stages of the game as my midfield devoid of Sandro was noticably weakened and tired as the game progressed. A 2-2 draw at Old Trafford, not ideal. However I have the luxury of being able to rest all my players between now and the return leg, and I will have all my players available. Juventus will be missing a key player and cannot afford to rest their entire team. Warfare will resume and hopefully I will have a significant condition advantage. Plus I will know what to watch out for as the game ticks deep into the second half. Better hope I have scored all the goals I need to by the 70th minute mark.

Kawee · March 23, 2011

Great thread as ever SFraser.

I've been using the same theory since FM10 as well, except I use it in a 4-5-1.

However, I don't set my striker as the playmaker. I set him as targetman and play the ball to his feet. Playing as a deep-lying forward, he becomes a playmaking False Nine. Highest assists in the team as he pass the ball to my wingers to finish off the moves.

This free up my playmaker slot for my DMC, which allows him to dictate the tempo from midfield.

Frank327 · March 23, 2011

A few comments.

First of all, from your example, you'd think Aguero is the playmaker as he attempted the trickiest pass, and really made things happen. Rooney laying it off to either of the two running players or scoring with a long shot is nothing special.

Secondly, I wouldn't call it "analysing the 4-2-3-1", but something like "using wide players". Most 4-2-3-1 formations focus on getting the most out of an AMC, either as a playmaker or as a goalscorer. In this example, the AMC is barely involved.

I have been thinking about using a 4-2-3-1 like this though. One where the AMC is a hardworking midfielder capable of playing the second striker role instead of being a creative player. But it's difficult to find good creative forwards, and it's difficult to find good hardworking AMC's with good finishing. Aside that, if the opponent uses zonal marking and using a DMC, then the striker has no use for dropping deep because he'll just wander into the area of another good defensive player. Really, if any of your players get any space in front of the penalty area, then it doesn't matter too much what kind of player they are, they're probably gonna score anyways. Like you said, Rooney will just score a goal from a long shot, but a dribbler will have enough space to dribble and score, and a target man will lay it off to someone who can finish it off.

SFraser · March 23, 2011

However, I don't set my striker as the playmaker. I set him as targetman and play the ball to his feet. Playing as a deep-lying forward, he becomes a playmaking False Nine. Highest assists in the team as he pass the ball to my wingers to finish off the moves.
This free up my playmaker slot for my DMC, which allows him to dictate the tempo from midfield.

I don't set anyone as playmaker, it imposes artificial "choice weights" that have nothing to do with the actual on-pitch context.

Rooney IS a playmaker naturally due to his appreciation of space, his movement, his creativity, flair, technique and his teamwork. All that is missing from his "playmaker" handbook of attributes is epic anticipation, composure and passing.

First of all, from your example, you'd think Aguero is the playmaker as he attempted the trickiest pass

You would think Aguero had excellent technique because he hit an obvious but difficult pass perfectly. The pass requiring the most Creativity (the defining attribute for a playmaker) was the pass to Douglas Costa who was making a run.

Rooney wasn't making a run, he only moved a couple of yards in this whole move. That's the whole point of this thread. It wasn't Aguero's intelligence, it wasn't Costa's movement, it was Rooney's understanding and appreciation of space against a diamond midfield that made this goal.

A subtle issue maybe, but one I have shown actually exists in FM, which is by far the greatest football game around. If you don't like my tactics, don't like my thread, you can still marvel at my proof that players in FM appreciate and understand space.

Rooney laying it off to either of the two running players or scoring with a long shot is nothing special.

100% correct. None of that is special, that's why I didn't show any screenshots of the goal.

What was special was how my Lone Striker played the perfect "Number 10" role. He occupied the space infront of the Juventus defence and had runners ahead of him but scored with a long range shot. Getting a lone striker to perfectly play the No. 10 role is pretty special.

But it is also highly logical given how tactics have evolved in the last few years. That is what this thread is about.

Secondly, I wouldn't call it "analysing the 4-2-3-1", but something like "using wide players". Most 4-2-3-1 formations focus on getting the most out of an AMC, either as a playmaker or as a goalscorer. In this example, the AMC is barely involved.

That's because my AMC was used to beat a 4 man midfield with three men.

However he is still making a run 5 yards away from two Centrebacks that are marking other players. I wouldn't call that "uninvolved". I would call that game, set and match.

I have been thinking about using a 4-2-3-1 like this though. One where the AMC is a hardworking midfielder capable of playing the second striker role instead of being a creative player. But it's difficult to find good creative forwards, and it's difficult to find good hardworking AMC's with good finishing. Aside that, if the opponent uses zonal marking and using a DMC, then the striker has no use for dropping deep because he'll just wander into the area of another good defensive player.

Maybe you skipped the part where I wrote about player selection = tactics in my system. 90% of games Shelvey is a rubbish AMC, infact have a screenshot:

Why play him at AMC for a Champions League Semi Final if he played 33 matches for me at MC this season?

Tactics. And pretty obvious tactics if he played 33 games for me at MC and I am playing him at AMC against a diamond...

I am not the best, but I am atleast decent.

I know my players and I can make a lot of different teams out of my players without once having to touch their tactical instructions. It would be great to have Cleon's knowledge of the tactical instructions, but I don't. That doesn't mean I am a tactical fool. I know how to build teams with a decent quantity of tactical instruction knowledge, but a significant quantity of individual player tactical knowledge.

A hardworking AMC doesn't make a good tactic an awesome tactic, it makes a great squad tactically flexible.

There is a fundamental difference here.

Really, if any of your players get any space in front of the penalty area, then it doesn't matter too much what kind of player they are, they're probably gonna score anyways

100% absolutely, utterly, completely correct.

How do you get into any space infront of the penalty area against a diamond midfield?

Rooney was in so much space it made Stephen Hawking re-evaluate quantum mechanics. And it provoked me to write a thread about it. I do start a lot of threads though.

Cleon · March 23, 2011

A subtle issue maybe, but one I have shown actually exists in FM, which is by far the greatest football game around. If you don't like my tactics, don't like my thread, you can still marvel at my proof that players in FM appreciate and understand space.

Being a massive attribute fan as I am, I think I enjoy this move more than most people. It's the little details like this that make you appreciate the importance of an intelligent player.

What was special was how my Lone Striker played the perfect "Number 10" role. He occupied the space infront of the Juventus defence and had runners ahead of him but scored with a long range shot. Getting a lone striker to perfectly play the No. 10 role is pretty special.
But it is also highly logical given how tactics have evolved in the last few years. That is what this thread is about.

It's very hard to get a player to act as a proper number 10. Like you've already pointed out, the goal itself wasn't special but the build up play was. Which is a shame because some don't seem to understand that.

I know my players and I can make a lot of different teams out of my players without once having to touch their tactical instructions. It would be great to have Cleon's knowledge of the tactical instructions, but I don't

You're selling yourself short there. You understand the instructions as well as I do. Our play styles are very similar and we both understand the importance of mental attributes above everything else.

Rooney was in so much space it made Stephen Hawking re-evaluate quantum mechanics. And it provoked me to write a thread about it. I do start a lot of threads though

I'm glad you did do the thread. I love reading thread's done by people who know the game well. For me that makes a refreshing change because in all honesty there isn't a lot of thread's that make me stop and take notice or what can hold my concentration for long. But your thread's actually make me think about my own approach slightly different sometimes. So cheers for that

Mike_Cardinal · March 24, 2011

Interesting as always, I have a couple of questions though, which may not be seen as being directly related to the topic. If Rooney is a playmaker from the front, dropping deep to collect the ball, what does this mean for the rest of your central midfielders? Clearly, your central midfielders are very important to your side defensively, and so I'm curious how you have them set up - are they holding their position so well because of their attributes, or do they have a particular mix of instructions (low RFD/Mentality/Closing Down, perhaps, though I imagine they close down quite high up the pitch)? I'm quite impressed with your comment that Sandro also surged forward at one point, and intrigued as to whether this is mentality-driven. However, even if they are ostensibly sitting players, where does this leave your attacking midfielder? Is he less of a creative presence than your striker, instead designed to make runs off Rooney and score goals, as Shelvey attempted to do here? I can see the logic there - Rooney is certainly freer in general from the clutches of a DM and so better able, perhaps, to dictate the play in the final third, but it seems to me like this would be too much like having two players doing the same thing, where they both creating chances, as I imagine your AM still would be, and surging into the box to score goals, as Rooney undoubtedly does. Do you, for example, set either of them to roam from flank to flank in order to support play as it develops out wide, and to what extent can your holding players support these moves?

Inside Forwards and overlapping full backs are all well and good, and, as has been well documented, are lethal weapons in many circumstances, but I cannot deny that I think the midfield battle is the most important part of a football game, and a beautifully functioning unit or pivoting system there is the most interesting discussion point to me, for attaining the perfect balance in that area of the pitch is, arguably, to attain a perfectly working side, as all of the other cogs in your team can and will whirl around them as soon as you've got it right, being far easier to set up correctly.

Frank327 · March 24, 2011

How do you get into any space infront of the penalty area against a diamond midfield?

Rooney was in so much space it made Stephen Hawking re-evaluate quantum mechanics. And it provoked me to write a thread about it. I do start a lot of threads though.

The reason there was so much space there was because the holding midfielder (number 22) was completely out of position, probably because he took the throw-in. There wasn't any reason for him to move so much to the right, as Aguero was already being pressed by two men. I don't see how the 4-2-3-1 shape had anything to do with it. If anything, this same move would've been more effective in a 4-3-3.

Flohrinho · March 24, 2011

Actually SFrasers tactical approach pretty much reminds of what Sir Alex does at Manchester United.

How often did I read somewhere that Sir Alex Ferguson isn't a tactical mastermind and he always plays 4-4-2 against the weaker teams and 4-5-1 counter attacking football against the strong teams.

Then the question might rise how come that Manchester United is still competing in so many competitions for the highest places usually in 3 competitions even though they arguably lost two of their key players over the last two season?

I'd say it's squad variety and depth.

There is no other squad in world football that has such an incredible variety of players in it that can all decide a game on a good day and picking the right players for the right games has been the main reason why Manchester United despite the quality loss can still compete on the highest level of football.

Now choosing someone like Rooney as your striker (if you want to have striker that drops deep and pulls defenders with him) is vital to actually pull that tactical concept off since he has the PPM "Comes Deep To Get Ball" playing a striker like David Villa instead who has PPMs like "Likes To Try To Beat Offside Trap" would be useless, I watched him over an entire game and tried different settings for but he still spend the most of his time sitting at the shoulder of a striker trying to beat the offside trap.

So yes choosing the right players for your tactical concepts is key imo and will get you far more out of your tactic then tweaking every last bit in your tactic which then might just be overwritten by the wrong PPMs of a player.

Sure you could take away all creative freedom from a player to have him perform exactly what you want him to but that would also make the tactic very predictable and easy to counter for other teams or the AI that's why a squad of very diverse players is imo the key to tactical diversity.

Cleon · March 24, 2011

The reason there was so much space there was because the holding midfielder (number 22) was completely out of position, probably because he took the throw-in. There wasn't any reason for him to move so much to the right, as Aguero was already being pressed by two men. I don't see how the 4-2-3-1 shape had anything to do with it. If anything, this same move would've been more effective in a 4-3-3.

From what you can see on the screenshot the holding player was providing extra cover for Rooney, but Rooney managed to 'lose' him. He moved right because Rooney was the immediate threat. There was no need for the holding player to stay central as he wouldn't have been involved whatsoever.

As for the bit in bold, if you are going to be objective then atleast give reasons as to how you think something. Rather than just making a sweeping statement. SFraser has put a lot of effort into this thread and whether you agree or not he deserves a better response as to why you think it will be better in a 4-3-3.

footballmanager84 · March 24, 2011

Thank you for taking the time to post something most people would miss completely. It's a great little insight into the different ways of approaching a match.

I understand what you've shown here so I'm going to ask something not directly related to the topic. Why have you gone for 2 MC instead of the usual 2 DMC of the 4 2 3 1 deep?

James9 · March 24, 2011

Great post Sfraser. I am trying to set up a 4231 formation with Arsenal but I seem to get lost with the midfield settings -could you give some advice on this area I have Song as a ball winning midfielder support, wilshere as box to box midfielder support and fabregas as advacnce playmaker support. all their mentalities are set to normal, creative freedom st to much with fabregas having the highest setting because he is the playmaker. RFD mixed for Song and Wilshere and RWB rarely on all 3 midfielders. I ideally want Song and Wilshere to be my two holding midfielders that will protect my back four because I am playing with wingbacks.

Could you offer me any advice in this area

Frank327 · March 24, 2011

From what you can see on the screenshot the holding player was providing extra cover for Rooney, but Rooney managed to 'lose' him. He moved right because Rooney was the immediate threat. There was no need for the holding player to stay central as he wouldn't have been involved whatsoever.
As for the bit in bold, if you are going to be objective then atleast give reasons as to how you think something. Rather than just making a sweeping statement. SFraser has put a lot of effort into this thread and whether you agree or not he deserves a better response as to why you think it will be better in a 4-3-3.

The reason I think the move would be more effective in a 4-3-3 is because it would be more likely to draw the holding midfielder out of position. Against a 4-2-3-1 the holding midfielder can sit in the hole to pick up the AMC, so he'll often be in the way for Rooney to drop deep. But against a 4-3-3 the midfielders are deeper, so they've got a 3v1 situation at the back (DC's and DMC against one STC), which can overload the other midfielders as they have to deal with both your 3 CM's and any fullbacks going forward. The solution to this is to have the holding midfielder help out the MCR and MCL more, which creates space in the hole.

In the tactical theorems (I thought it was the tactical visions PDF) there's actually an example of this, with a 4-5-1 (or 4-3-3) against a 4-4-2 diamond formation. It shows how the diamond's MCL and MCR have to deal with a double threat because the deep lying striker (#10) is up against 3 players. This would naturally force the holding midfielder to step out of the hole to help out his teammates.

I do like these threads though. A lot of insight from SFraser. Especially about letting the players do their own thing instead of using too many tactical instructions. In real life you could say this is the Harry Redknapp approach to tactics, and it's very successful.

mikewalker · March 24, 2011

For what its worth, in my humble experience I've found that pulling my wingers/inside forwards down to a winger/wide midfielder starting position works well against the 4-4-2 diamond.

You can keep the instructions for the players as you prefer, but just putting their base position that bit deeper and inline with the centre mids causes a nice problem for the opponent. Either their fullback pushes high to press your wide player when on the ball or a centre mid is dragged out wide, evening things up in the centre for you.

If left in their base position as you've shown in the Man Utd vs Juventus screenshot then I often find the fullback stays at home in his zone so the threat of space on the flank is minimal and the centre remains busy with their diamond intact.

mdbussen · March 24, 2011

The reason there was so much space there was because the holding midfielder (number 22) was completely out of position, probably because he took the throw-in.

I would agree with this though I'm not sure its related to the throw-in. From what I know of the player, I would guess that Sissoko is physically talented but probably not as positionally aware which is why he was caught in the wrong place in the build-up play.

SFraser · March 24, 2011

The reason I think the move would be more effective in a 4-3-3 is because it would be more likely to draw the holding midfielder out of position. Against a 4-2-3-1 the holding midfielder can sit in the hole to pick up the AMC, so he'll often be in the way for Rooney to drop deep. But against a 4-3-3 the midfielders are deeper, so they've got a 3v1 situation at the back (DC's and DMC against one STC), which can overload the other midfielders as they have to deal with both your 3 CM's and any fullbacks going forward. The solution to this is to have the holding midfielder help out the MCR and MCL more, which creates space in the hole.
In the tactical theorems (I thought it was the tactical visions PDF) there's actually an example of this, with a 4-5-1 (or 4-3-3) against a 4-4-2 diamond formation. It shows how the diamond's MCL and MCR have to deal with a double threat because the deep lying striker (#10) is up against 3 players. This would naturally force the holding midfielder to step out of the hole to help out his teammates.

I do like these threads though. A lot of insight from SFraser. Especially about letting the players do their own thing instead of using too many tactical instructions. In real life you could say this is the Harry Redknapp approach to tactics, and it's very successful.

While that is certainly true there is a reason why the 4-2-3-1 was the formation of choice at the last World Cup and that is because it is significantly defensively defensively stronger than the 4-5-1 (4-3-3) and the 4-1-2-3 against both counter attacks and sustained build-up pressure while itself being excellent on the counter-attack. It also enables significantly greater local numbers in attack rather than the symmetrical but spread out numbers of the other formations.

My screenshots illustrate this point perfectly.

The first screenshot shows a narrow three man midfield no more than 20 yards apart if even that, that is shaped in such a way to push attacks away from the middle and down the flanks. The 4-3-3 would simply have these three midfielders in a line while the 4-1-2-3 would be shaped to channel attacks in to the centre from the wide areas.

From the flank position any attacker would be staring at an echeloned line of Fullback, DM/CM, AMC and FC barring his path towards the centre in any direction. A ball to a Forward, AM, CM, DM or even CB would be a risk. Further more the echeloned line of my spine defending the flank is protecting a further "triangle" of my remaining Holding Midfielder and two Centrebacks. The attacker only has two low-risk options while he is being harrassed by my Winger and that is a ball to his Fullback or a crossfield pass to his opposite number on the other flank.

I have written extensively about the signficant defensive strength of the 4-2-3-1 and the evolutionary approach it takes to controlling and defending space on the football pitch so I wont go into much greater detail here. You can look up my other threads for more information on my thinking on this subject.

In attack the Final screenshot shows that planted firmly in the centre of the pitch I have 3 "Centrebacks" and holding midfielder "in the hole". If the opponent at any time got hold of the ball and either cleared it or attempted a counter-attack I would already have a player positioned in each key area of the pitch. To even get hold of the ball the opponent is going to have to directly contest in a physical challenge with one of my three centrebacks or my holding midfielder. In short his counter-attacking strategy is against me is nul and void, he has none. His only option is to play through my "pyramid" defence with pass-and-move football.

In screenshot two you will see that when Aguero has the ball I have Alaba moving to support him from Fullback and Aguero has Sandro, Shelvey and Rooney making supporting runs to offer pass options into the centre while Costa is making an attacking run in from a wide position to the centre. In a 4-3-3 or 4-1-2-3 one of these players would be the CM on the opposite side of the pitch and I would have less local numerical superiority to construct an attack. Aguero has no less than five passing options arranged in his line of sight that are ahead of my holding midfielder from his point of view. From Aguero's point of view he has a line of five attacking pass options and then further away from Aguero are my four holding/defensive players. While the end result of the move in a 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and 4-1-2-3 may be the same as screenshot three, these other two formations have less local passing options to achieve that result. Players would have to contend with working a space while having fewer options in the immediate vicinity. This is a major factor in why 4-2-3-1 was the formation of choice at the World Cup, it enhances passing football while remaining strong defensively against both sustained build-up and counter-attacking football. An ideal modern formation for the type of football played and the tactics met at the highest level.

Mourinho famously said that his Inter team gave the ball away on purpose to Barcelona. This is obviously hubris but it does make a fundamental point, the 4-1-2-3 of Barcelona is much more vulnerable on the counter-attack and the symmetry of the formation had a tendency to focus play down the flanks when meeting a 4-2-3-1. Barcelona were experimenting with Messi through the middle and the wideplay from Barcelona against Inter was abysmal.

In the grand scheme of things what the 4-2-3-1 does is it effectively swaps a spare attacking fullback on the other side of the pitch for a central attacking threat. It looks shorter on attacking numbers through the centre when compared to a 4-1-2-3 or 4-3-3 but this is superficial because it is a fundamentally different tactical premise. It's not a mere familly member of the 4-5-1 varients, it is an evolutionary step forward from the 4-5-1 varients both offensively and defensively. And it continues to be the hotbed of tactical evolution in the modern game.

likeabawss · March 24, 2011

great thread, but i have a question: where is rooney, or really any striker, described as a forward? i can't seem to find that anywhere, and i would like to know that information for my own team.

Jenko_EFC · March 24, 2011

Awesome read SFraser, always take a lot from your threads.

Looking at something similar to your Tactics Setup myself, not many Instructions but change based on who I play kind of thing. Still very much a WIP but you'll probably see me post around about it. Best example being my Midfield: Fellaini/Rodwell tend to stay back and make forward runs when they're on whereas Cahill would be looking around for Space because if his high Off The Ball, Teamwork and Anticipation. My "Playmaker" is Saha although I have Baxter being trained to fill that once developed. I don't have a "Striker" on the wing but a bit of Training and Scouting around should find someone suitable!

I love the setup of your Midfield, Shelvey and Sandro are immense and I'd like to see a screenshot of how you've developed them and Ramirez, I like the way they actually get to choose if they run forward/hold their position and whatnot. One thing I'd like to disucss is Footedness, how do you think it works? Mental attribute of how confident he is with the ball on that foot? A Technical attribute of how well he can Dribble/Pass/Shoot with it? Be interesting to see your reply. :thup:

mdbussen · March 24, 2011

great thread, but i have a question: where is rooney, or really any striker, described as a forward? i can't seem to find that anywhere, and i would like to know that information for my own team.

Their position will be listed as F C or AM/F C rather than S.

likeabawss · March 24, 2011

yeah, that doesn't appear on my game. perhaps it's the skin or i'm not looking in the right place...

vasilli07 · March 24, 2011

Hi, just to ask, are your holding midfielders on a defend duty?

shwayne · March 25, 2011

yeah, that doesn't appear on my game. perhaps it's the skin or i'm not looking in the right place...

Forwards are simply strikers with a high 'free role' rating. However, on FM11 SI seemed to have decided not to distinguish between strikers and forwards so irrespective of free role rating all attackers are listed as strikers.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if someone had made a skin that did flag up the distinction that existed on earlier versions of the game, although I haven't seen one as of yet (not that I seek them out).

lam · March 25, 2011

As always........ outstanding contribution to the forums.

As you know, I'm a fan of your work.

I beleive that you are still playing with FM10, but can I ask if the tactics have changed much beyond what we PM'd about some time ago?

I have a very successfull SPurs team currently that is playing a 442 (AML/R) and playing some outstanding football, however I really realyl want to play a solo striker, but I can never set the things up. From our previous chats, I highly enjoyed playing your tactics with Man U, but I will try and replicate them with Spurs, though, I do not have the players like you do...... my midfield is probably more specific than 'generally' good like yours is and my strikers are Koumo (not sure if that is correct) and Dzeko, neither of which I think would be Rooneyish enough for this.

Though, please advise if your tactics have changed much since last time around?

Regards

LAM

cragswfc · March 25, 2011

Another quality thread by SFraser .a very good read aswell

SFraser · March 26, 2011