Creating a Triple Pivot System

[tingting]

This means with a higher mentality the player will be more aggressive with his forward runs and look to get forward at the expense of when losing the ball, the CBs will be exposed. Also a lower mentality means less ambitious balls which can reduce the silly through balls through a mine field of legs. Don't worry about a player being too passive, if they see a passing opportunity and it has a reasonable chance of being successful and the risk of a counter is quite small he will try the pass.

Didn't actually read your complete post since i play with a different formation (similar to the one used by Mourinho at Inter complete with a box to box midfielder à la Sneijder). Since the new patch i was really struggling with tactics (not that they were wrong...but the results were not consistent) However your little interpretation returned my enjoyment to the game Initially used to build tactics basing them on a similar theory (read it first in a thread by crouchaldinho if i remember correctly) but got confused with the various "theories and philosophies" thanks to TT&F and the tactics creator (not having a go at them) So it is back to the "basics" then

[Andyprime]

great thread this but is there going to be a separate tactic thread in download section? i feel like i'd be spaming if i where to be posting things about it here

[Fieldsy]

Great thread and some interesting ideas. I am currently trying to make a tactic with Arsenal that will see the older style 4-3-3 that was used before the 4-2-3-1.

Namely, having a DMC and two creative midfielders, making a 1-2 midfield partnership. My trouble at the moment is what roles to make the more creative midfielders in helping them to create, be stable as midfielders and also supporting the attacks. My thinking currently is having both as Advanced Midfielders with a support duty. The one would have runs from deep often. Havent tried this yet but I am concerned as to whether this will give me enough structure and defence in the centre of midfield.

[drhay53]

I have not downloaded the tactic, but I assume in the TC you have set the philosophy to fluid with 'Much' Creative Freedom?

[axehan1]

very fluid i think.

[lucatonix]

I have not downloaded the tactic, but I assume in the TC you have set the philosophy to fluid with 'Much' Creative Freedom?

It is very fluid with more creative freedom. If you have a look at the link I posted in the first post called Formaiton and Team Instructions just under the heading Translating this into Football Manager would find your answer.

Thanks for that lucatonix I will try setting the team to attack instaed of standard. When you say make Song a traditional DM do you mean changing is duty from support to defend and making is run from deep mixed.

I don't change the duty but make is run from deep mixed or rarely. I may also reduce closing down to normal rather than press more if I feel that we are not applying a pressing game well or are giving away to many fouls. the reason I go to attacking is to try to get an early goal and pressurize the opposition. By forcing them onto the back foot I can hopefully take control of the game and frustrate my opponents. Also the added urgency of the increased tempo and reduced time wasting means it can be easier to create goal scoring chances.

great thread this but is there going to be a separate tactic thread in download section? i feel like i'd be spaming if i where to be posting things about it here

I will be creating a separate thread about it in the download section shortly. Until then feel free to post about your experience of how the midfield three works offensively and defensively, and by all means you can relate this to the rest of your team and their performance.

Great thread and some interesting ideas. I am currently trying to make a tactic with Arsenal that will see the older style 4-3-3 that was used before the 4-2-3-1.

Namely, having a DMC and two creative midfielders, making a 1-2 midfield partnership. My trouble at the moment is what roles to make the more creative midfielders in helping them to create, be stable as midfielders and also supporting the attacks. My thinking currently is having both as Advanced Midfielders with a support duty. The one would have runs from deep often. Havent tried this yet but I am concerned as to whether this will give me enough structure and defence in the centre of midfield.

Thank you. I think to ensure enough structure and defence you will need a good DM and intelligent CBs which Arsenal have in the form of Song, Vermaelen and Koscielny to stall any counter attacks. Then your midfield needs to have a low enough mentality to not get too far forward and become isolated. By having a reduced mentality they should be more selective with their runs and therefore shouldn't lose defensive stability.

[DandyDon]

I've just taken over Arsenal on my current 11.3 save, after they've been managed by O'Neill for 2 and a half seasons. I found this thread after reading some of the posts in the Arsenal thread in Good Player and Team guide forum.

Some interesting ideas, well thought out and described. Rather than download and use your tactic Lucatonix, I've been using some of your ideas about mentality to build my 4-2-3-1 for the Gunners. I'm usually a 4-4-2 man(or 4-2-2-2 if you like), but decided I'd try something different, didn't feel the Arsenal squad I inherited was suited to 4-4-2 either. Fortunately O'Neill left me the bulk of the real Arsenal squad to tinker with, though he has added M'Vila and Wesley Sneijder.

I've deployed the DM (the Song role in your formation) a little more defensively than you so far, rotating M'Vila and Song there. While he doesn't make as many forward runs, I've noticed that M'Vila especially has been able to grab a couple of assists with through balls in to space opened up by the movement of Wilshere and Fabregas. The defence seem to track those two and the DM is able to slip a ball ahead of a pacy striker (in my team it's Paloschi). I'm only a couple of matches in so far, and haven't tested the set up against one of the other big clubs yet, but so far reasonably pleased with the possession stats and the number of chances created.

Out of interest do you play the AMR and AML either side of Cesc as wingers or inside forwards? At the moment I'm using Eden Hazard and Samir Nasri there and playing them as Advanced Playmakers rather than out and out wingers. I think I'd be limiting them if I had them constantly hugging the line.

Anyway, once again, cracking OP with some interesting ideas in there. Cheers

[lucatonix]

I play them as inside forwards attack. Although with mixed run with ball, through ball and cross ball. The main reason being, that my team aren't good enough in the air to score lots from crosses. If I wanted to I could play them with normal wide play.

[lucatonix]

here is a link to the tactic thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/260170-A-Fluid-4-2-3-1-Inspired-by-Arsenal-s-Midfield-Pivot

[DandyDon]

I play them as inside forwards attack. Although with mixed run with ball, through ball and cross ball. The main reason being, that my team aren't good enough in the air to score lots from crosses. If I wanted to I could play them with normal wide play.

I have a slight advantage there as I inherited Oscar Cardozo in the squad (gives us a fallback plan I suppose). Actually relatively happy playing them as advanced playmakers so far. The movement of the those 2 plus Fabregas and Wilshere with their licence to roam seems to open up a lot of space for the solo striker. A little more tinkering to do yet though to be totally happy with my version of things.

Happy so far with the balance of the 'pivot' though. Following your ideason player mentality and roaming has led to some nice interplay beween Cesc and Jack. (3 assists in 2 games from Cesc, 1 goal, 1 assist from Jack) Long may it continue.

[lucatonix]

I'm glad it's giving you good interplay. One thing you might notice is that your AML will get a lot more chances than your AMR with Cardozo if Cardozo is playing with his back to goal. If Cardozo has time to turn he will put the AMR through more often. This is due to Cardozo's one footedness.

You should look to exploit this by putting your faster more clinical player on the wing which receives the most chances.

[DandyDon]

I'm glad it's giving you good interplay. One thing you might notice is that your AML will get a lot more chances than your AMR with Cardozo if Cardozo is playing with his back to goal. If Cardozo has time to turn he will put the AMR through more often. This is due to Cardozo's one footedness.

You should look to exploit this by putting your faster more clinical player on the wing which receives the most chances.

Interesting, thanks for the tip. I'll keep an eye on that. At the moment Cardozo is the back up plan, but knowing the fragility of certain forwards, I'm sure he'll be utilised.

[WBA_Baggies]

I desire the have the same thing. I am building the same thing at Roma. Your post has been very helpful and I will implement much of it into my team. For my team Hazard is the soul of my team, the Fabregas role. De Rossi is the DMC. Wingers for me include Nani,Momo,Obinna and Donovan. Neywar is my forward, Vucinic is the backup. I will use your fluid tactit for sure. I have 3 attackings mids like you, but at the moment play De Rossi and Skejbred or Pizarro beside him. I need to encorportae your model.

Question: Should I set the full bakcs to the wing back role? Often my attacks can fizzle out when I start crossing the ball too much. The soul of the team shifts to my wingbacks Motta adn Riise rather than Hazard. Should I set crossing to rarely?

[lucatonix]

I noticed this since my AML always played really well when Van Persie is playing and that is because van Persie often volleys the ball to the AML with his first touch. He is much more confident doing this with his right foot (I think due to his ppm avoids using weaker foot) and thus Arshavin at AML gets more goals and assists than my AMR.

[lucatonix]

I desire the have the same thing. I am building the same thing at Roma. Your post has been very helpful and I will implement much of it into my team. For my team Hazard is the soul of my team, the Fabregas role. De Rossi is the DMC. Wingers for me include Nani,Momo,Obinna and Donovan. Neywar is my forward, Vucinic is the backup. I will use your fluid tactit for sure. I have 3 attackings mids like you, but at the moment play De Rossi and Skejbred or Pizarro beside him. I need to encorportae your model.

Question: Should I set the full bakcs to the wing back role? Often my attacks can fizzle out when I start crossing the ball too much. The soul of the team shifts to my wingbacks Motta adn Riise rather than Hazard. Should I set crossing to rarely?

You don't have to. I have set my right back to wing back attack so he gets forward and is involved with the play, giving us width whereas my left back is more of a full back support.

also I'm unsure whether Neymar is suited to the striker role in my tactic. He won't be great at holding up the ball, but if you can get him to come deep and run at the defense and create chances for others he can be dangerous. In my tactic he would be good at AML so he can run past the striker and have some one on ones.

[WBA_Baggies]

Yeah I considered putting Neymar at the AML. Momo is fading anyway. I would then play Vucinic or Ismail Unver(newgen) at the striker role. De Rossi at the DM and Skejbred in the Wilshere role.

My season is only 2 games from complete and its has been a dissapointment, finishing 6th or 7th. But I will use this tactic for my next season. Because I have the players. I want to run soemthing just like this system. I think your system will greatly help me, because I feel like I am not getting the best out of De Rossi and Skejbred with my current tactic, Hazard is already phenomenol but with your system I can use all 3 plus Nani and Neymar to their fullest potential.

[lucatonix]

I hope it goes well for you. And yes Vucinic looks much more suited to a role upfront on his own.

[tyro]

Hi Lucatonix,

I have recently started a Liverpool save (for whatever reason I can't stick to one team and this is my 6th save I think). In an case I finished the pre season and played the first few games. Lost 3 tied 2 won 2. They simply didn't seem to "work" for it.

So I saw your thread. Looked at my players and thought I could implement it with Gerard treq, meireless in the mc role, and Lucas as DM. I play a 4-2-3-1. My first game was against Napoli euro league and I noticed right away beautiful passing and they made themselvs available. I had 90% pass completion. Not many chances but I rather have 4 shots with 4 on target than 29 shots 3 on target.

Where I had problems though was my defense. They seemed to be in complete chaos and not marking their players being caught out of position or simply not choosing to intercept a player. I don't know if it has to do with their low creativity?

I have contraeo dl he has decent creativity. Agger as well. Carragher not at all and Kelly ( Glenn Johnson 4 months injury) neither.

Due to my defense being so chaotic I lost 2:0.

After the game I reduced the creative freedom for Carragher and Kelly to little and plays manch city who I had just played in the league cup and won in penalty shoot out after a 1:1 previously. In this regular league game they beat me 2:1. Again my defens seemed chaotic. I then played west brom and lost again even though I was heavily favored. News said the board is close to sacking me so I changed back to fluid control default roaming and freedom but left the formation as you had indicated with Lucas in DM. We won the next game (again odds heavily in our favor) 3:0 but I don't see this fluidity and beautiful play anymore.

After a long story I would love to play this but I am wondering what you do defensively and how you get your players to score the quality chances? Passing is great. It's excellent to watch when they pass around but once the opponent has the ball it's almost certainly a goal.

[DandyDon]

Tyro, I'm not sure how Luca has set his defence up as I haven't downloaded the tactic, just used some of his ideas to implement it with my own team. I currently have Vermaelen and Burdisso as my centre back pairing, have lowered their creative freedom quite a bit and have them using short passing. Neither of them are great passers, so I'd rather have them passing it simple to the DM or MC rather than trying to hit 50 yard cross field balls or defence splitting through balls. I think that cuts down on your defence losing the ball too cheaply.

The tactic is based on Arsenal so a little bit of defensive frailty is to be expected though.

If you check his actual tactic thread he gives a little information on the sort of defenders you need

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/260170-A-Fluid-4-2-3-1-Inspired-by-Arsenal-s-Midfield-Pivot

[tyro]

Dandy,

I have done the same now. Less creativiTy and shorter passes for cb. I set higher attacking (control) and went back to fluid. I lost some of the fluidity and flowing attack but my defense is much better now. My passing is 80% to 85% which is non bad.

I kept luca's idea of the dm with runs forward often and roaming for those three. Seems to work well. I might try a new arsenal save with the entire tactic luca outlined as it is really nice attacking football.

[lucatonix]

I think tyro and DandyDon has hit the nail on the head. The tactic isn't great defensively, but with confident in form players, your defense should improve.

[DandyDon]

I think tyro and DandyDon has hit the nail on the head. The tactic isn't great defensively, but with confident in form players, your defense should improve.

Extra work on defensive positioning on the match preparation would help a bit once the players are fully fluent with the system, but I think you should probably create enough opportunities to offset the defensive weakness.

And with the right players you should still keep your share of clean sheets.

[DandyDon]

Lucatonix, how is Fabregas performing for you in the triple pivot so far?

[lucatonix]

He has been performing well, and with him playing our team has much more fluidity and is more defensively stable due to his work rate and good mental attributes. Unfortunately he has struggled with injuries so hasn't had a good run of games even though I'm into my second season. He played well in his first season at AMC with 8 assists and 6 goals in 20 games or so. Nasri and Hazard played very well in the AMC role as well when called upon.

[jimbobBRFC]

Going to bring this back to the top the forums as I think it is a brilliant write up, idea. Going to attempt to create a similar version on FM12. If it works well can see it being a pretty good tactic.

Im thinking of incorporating a high press and a more stricter man marking system as thats how I like to play but I dont think that will effect the tactic too much. What do you think Lucatonix