BurnCM4X

Future Improvement on B/C/... Team System

23 posts in this topic

As some of you may noticed there are some bugs related to B/C/... teams set ups. Most of this issues are related to the B team system by affiliation. Why this system still exist??? The only reason to why the system was implemented was because there's a 3 squad limit in the game and the only way to implement the Spanish system of C teams and youth at the same time was to put them as affiliated clubs.

My suggestion to SI is to (finally) take out this 3 squad limit and use the internal B team system. This measure would help the implementation of the announced feature of the creating B teams in the game (that was a total bust, since it didn't involved the major leagues with B team system) to be expanded to other leagues that have them.

Keep in mind that this is just a suggestion to the next FM version (FM2012) and not to a patch version since i believe it probably wouldn't be possible to implement in this game version.

Also, would be nice to have some kind of feedback from SI about this. (I could be wrong on what i said... if i am please correct me)

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As some of you may noticed there are some bugs related to B/C/... teams set ups. Most of this issues are related to the B team system by affiliation. Why this system still exist??? The only reason to why the system was implemented was because there's a 3 squad limit in the game and the only way to implement the Spanish system of C teams and youth at the same time was to put them as affiliated clubs.

My suggestion to SI is to (finally) take out this 3 squad limit and use the internal B team system. This measure would help the implementation of the announced feature of the creating B teams in the game (that was a total bust, since it didn't involved the major leagues with B team system) to be expanded to other leagues that have them.

Keep in mind that this is just a suggestion to the next FM version (FM2012) and not to a patch version since i believe it probably wouldn't be possible to implement in this game version.

Also, would be nice to have some kind of feedback from SI about this. (I could be wrong on what i said... if i am please correct me)

i believe you are wrong. The reason they are an affiliate is because they are run IRL as a seperate team. It isnt like in england for example where you have a reserves team that you can pick and choose from. For example, in england, if Man Utd have a player that they have registered that isnt playing alot, they can drop him to the reserves. In Spain, they cannot as you cannot be registered for a higher team (any player registered in 'A' team cannot play in 'B' team and so on) Also there is an age restriction in most leagues on the B team so there needs to be something to stop you from moving over age players to the squad. These are just 2 reason why it is set up as it is, i dont belive it is simply a way to allow 4 teams.

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i believe you are wrong. The reason they are an affiliate is because they are run IRL as a seperate team. It isnt like in england for example where you have a reserves team that you can pick and choose from. For example, in england, if Man Utd have a player that they have registered that isnt playing alot, they can drop him to the reserves. In Spain, they cannot as you cannot be registered for a higher team (any player registered in 'A' team cannot play in 'B' team and so on) Also there is an age restriction in most leagues on the B team so there needs to be something to stop you from moving over age players to the squad. These are just 2 reason why it is set up as it is, i dont belive it is simply a way to allow 4 teams.

First I'm talking about B team system by affiliation and not about all affiliation system. The English system can't be given as an example since they do not have a B System.

All these rules that you talked about could be implemented in an internal B system, so the problem isn't there either.

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First I'm talking about B team system by affiliation and not about all affiliation system. The English system can't be given as an example since they do not have a B System.

All these rules that you talked about could be implemented in an internal B system, so the problem isn't there either.

i know what you are talking about mate, in no way have i said that i am referring to all affiliate teams, maybe read the post again. Secondly no they cant, hence why you can place 35 year olds into your under 18's if you wanted to with the internal system, they will just sit there as being ineligable. I may be wrong but you asked for input and i gave it pal.

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i know what you are talking about mate, in no way have i said that i am referring to all affiliate teams, maybe read the post again. Secondly no they cant, hence why you can place 35 year olds into your under 18's if you wanted to with the internal system, they will just sit there as being ineligable. I may be wrong but you asked for input and i gave it pal.

I've misread the English part. My apologies.

About the team running as a separate team in real life, is not that simple. They do run as a separate team but, for example, their finances are the same. That doesn't happen with the affiliated B system.

About the rules you've talked. Yes it's impossible to implement in THIS year version. I'm talking on implement it for the next year. That is surely easy to do.

Finally, I'm not criticizing you in any way, the post was created for discussion on this matter so thanks for the reply. ;) (any more aspects you think should be added please feel free to post them)

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I've misread the English part. My apologies.

About the team running as a separate team in real life, is not that simple. They do run as a separate team but, for example, their finances are the same. That doesn't happen with the affiliated B system.

About the rules you've talked. Yes it's impossible to implement in THIS year version. I'm talking on implement it for the next year. That is surely easy to do.

Finally, I'm not criticizing you in any way, the post was created for discussion on this matter so thanks for the reply. ;) (any more aspects you think should be added please feel free to post them)

ok, the finances do happen in game though, the way they are set up as a 'B Club' affiliate (check in editor) and this shares finances with the A team so it works fine. I dont see how they can implement them into the internal teams feature, they play in a seperate league that has to ensure that they never play in the same league or above the A team, again there are many restrictions that, as fair as i can tell, can really only be hard coded into a team, not a reserves squad. Finally no need to apologise!

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ok, the finances do happen in game though, the way they are set up as a 'B Club' affiliate (check in editor) and this shares finances with the A team so it works fine. I dont see how they can implement them into the internal teams feature, they play in a seperate league that has to ensure that they never play in the same league or above the A team, again there are many restrictions that, as fair as i can tell, can really only be hard coded into a team, not a reserves squad. Finally no need to apologise!

Finances: You can only share the board, and in that case the finances will be separated too. (tested in the editor a few tines)

Leagues: The rules for the leagues are the same for a B team in both systems (internal or by affiliation)

Restrictions: Think the confusion here is that you think that I'm talking about a reserve team created for a team. I'm not. It's possible to create a B squad (or a C/II/etc...). The rules will be the same for a team created internally or by affiliation. (check the editor)

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no, please dont assume what you think i am thinking of, i had not even considered what you mentioned.

Finances: The B Teams finances comes from the A team, id love to see how you tested otherwise using the editor.

Leagues: Incorrect. Take spain as an example, Barca B play in Liga Adelente, this is a 'real' league. If Barca (A Team) got relegated, they would play in Liga Adelente, and Barca B would be relegated. In a reserves system, Man Utd reserves do not play in the Championship for example, they are in a reserves league,so it is not the same at all.

Restrictions: I am not saying that the rules are different, i am saying that it is alot easier for it to be hard coded to the 'affiliate' team rather than the internal reserves

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I insist that you probably not understanding what i mean with Internal B team... if you get relegated with barça to Adelante and if the B team is in Adelante, with the internal System you will get the B team relegated too.

About the finances, i did some tests and i was able to get different finances status in the Information screen between A and B team. (one was Okay, the other insecure) not sure what that means...

I insist, I'm not talking about Reserve teams... you can choose the type of the squad you create internally. If you choose reserve then you have a normal Reserve squad but if you choose B team type you will have a B Team that will follow the same rules as the affiliated B team.

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no, you are not understanding a word i am saying!

when you write " if you get relegated with barça to Adelante and if the B team is in Adelante, with the internal System you will get the B team relegated too" what do you think i meant by "Take spain as an example, Barca B play in Liga Adelente, this is a 'real' league. If Barca (A Team) got relegated, they would play in Liga Adelente, and Barca B would be relegated" I am saying the exact same thing, YOU are saying that it is the same for internal or affiliation, it is not! There is no 'internal' B team, the only internal teams are reserves or youth teams, these do not work in the same way as a B team does, how else can i explain this to you??

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Well. let me say I've tested what I'm saying (not with the Spanish league, but with a custom one) and the B team created internally had the same behavior than a affiliated would have. (the B squad was relegated when the other squad got relegated)

The only situation when they are both in the same division is when they are both in the last division. (for both B systems)

If you saying that i dreamed the test then that's another thing. :)

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i will say it one more time. I know they both cannot be in the same league, that is why i wrote "Take spain as an example, Barca B play in Liga Adelente, this is a 'real' league. If Barca (A Team) got relegated, they would play in Liga Adelente, and Barca B would be relegated"

surely you get it now?

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no, you are not understanding a word i am saying!

when you write " if you get relegated with barça to Adelante and if the B team is in Adelante, with the internal System you will get the B team relegated too" what do you think i meant by "Take spain as an example, Barca B play in Liga Adelente, this is a 'real' league. If Barca (A Team) got relegated, they would play in Liga Adelente, and Barca B would be relegated" I am saying the exact same thing, YOU are saying that it is the same for internal or affiliation, it is not! There is no 'internal' B team, the only internal teams are reserves or youth teams, these do not work in the same way as a B team does, how else can i explain this to you??

You are saying that i am wrong in this post. And i responded that i'm not. I've tested with an Internal B team and it is the same thing. (Again, i tested)

Honestly didn't understand the why for that post since i clearly mentioned that both internal and affiliated B team systems work the same way.

You still saying that there is no internal B team when there is... Affiliated B team: Barça/Barça B. Internal B team: AaB/AaB II.

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You are saying that i am wrong in this post. And i responded that i'm not. I've tested with an Internal B team and it is the same thing. (Again, i tested)

Honestly didn't understand the why for that post since i clearly mentioned that both internal and affiliated B team systems work the same way.

You still saying that there is no internal B team when there is... Affiliated B team: Barça/Barça B. Internal B team: AaB/AaB II.

answer me this, in your 'tests' can you show me the message that comes up when you try and move a first team player from the first team to the B team?

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answer me this, in your 'tests' can you show me the message that comes up when you try and move a first team player from the first team to the B team?

As i said before, the restrictions have to be programmed in game. I was talking about league behavior. (Ex: SI can add a few options on the B squad in the editor to activate the restrictions you want)

Advantages: You have the option to give orders like asking them to use a specific tactic or even ask to use a specific player. You can, if you want control it. You can sell/buy the players you want. (The B team won't buy/sell players, they don't in the real life)

Disadvantages: honestly, don't remember any...

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but IRL the first team manager CANNOT control the B side! The B team has their own manager. I really think you need to do a bit of research as to how the B teams work, then come back with some ideas, i can see what you are suggesting but i cannot see it working.

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Ok, the part of controlling is just me telling it's actually possible to do. Not saying it should be that way in all leagues. Actually i have more research on B teams that you might imagine. For example, the affiliated B teams does not have the restrictions you talked. They are hard coded in game by the programmers as an exception. If you create a new affiliated B team (in the editor) they will be pretty much the same as a internal B team. For a programmer it's the same to program this exceptions in a internal B team or an affiliated one.

As the part you say you cannot see it working, why? You are a programmer on SI? That's why you're saying me it's impossible to add an option on the editor were you add the rules you want to a B team? Or it's impossible to add an option were you make impossible to make the B team trainable by the main manager? If you are, then i will leave this suggestion as it is. If not please stop trying to suggest you know more then me because every single idea you posted as impossible can be implemented in a future version!

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Ok, the part of controlling is just me telling it's actually possible to do. Not saying it should be that way in all leagues. Actually i have more research on B teams that you might imagine. For example, the affiliated B teams does not have the restrictions you talked. They are hard coded in game by the programmers as an exception. If you create a new affiliated B team (in the editor) they will be pretty much the same as a internal B team. For a programmer it's the same to program this exceptions in a internal B team or an affiliated one.

As the part you say you cannot see it working, why? You are a programmer on SI? That's why you're saying me it's impossible to add an option on the editor were you add the rules you want to a B team? Or it's impossible to add an option were you make impossible to make the B team trainable by the main manager? If you are, then i will leave this suggestion as it is. If not please stop trying to suggest you know more then me because every single idea you posted as impossible can be implemented in a future version!

Dont sit there asking for an opinion if the only one you want is the one that says your idea is brilliant. Your posts make no sense, you are saying that you want the B team to be run as the reserve teams currently are. You then say " the affiliated B teams does not have the restrictions you talked" but then say that they are hard coded by programmers, so they DO have the restrictions. I am not saying that it isnt the same to program it internally, i am saying that it is set as an affiliate for a reason, the B teams do not get run as part of the main squad IRL, they are run as a team within a team. Then you start asking why it isnt possible for the manager of the 1st team to control the B team, again IRL this DOESNT happen so it is not in the game, why should there be an option to change it in game when it isnt something that happens in football?

And no i am not a programmer, i am, however, a researcher for Football Manager (hence the title under my user name) and have talked in length with other people involved in the game about the B system and the information i am giving you is correct.

Finally, when have i ever said anything about these options shouldnt be available in the editor? If you want to make the game unrealistic go for it, dont throw that in now and say that i am against it, i really could not care less what you do in your save, you were talking about making it in the game, not being able to edit it in

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Your posts make no sense, you are saying that you want the B team to be run as the reserve teams currently are. You then say " the affiliated B teams does not have the restrictions you talked" but then say that they are hard coded by programmers, so they DO have the restrictions

The post is here because there's no need for two types of B Team. B team is a B team period. Then the leagues have their own type of rules/restrictions that, for example, you could add in a future version as an option on the editor. For you what is the problem on this if an internal B team do exactly the same as the other?

I am not saying that it isnt the same to program it internally, i am saying that it is set as an affiliate for a reason, the B teams do not get run as part of the main squad IRL, they are run as a team within a team.

In this version they appear on your team as an extra squad, didn't you noticed that? Now, what's the difference between the two types:

- In one (affiliate) the B team buys/sells/sack your players without asking you. (wrong, you still have a word on it)

- You can't set a tactic to the team (Well, if Guardiola ordered the B team manager to play with a specific tactic i don't think he would say no. You could argument that he can, well so the coach that trains another B team type, but he can't on Fm...)

- You can't set some players to play (Again if Guardiola told the B team manager to put some player on the 11 don't think he would say no)

- You have an information window (For what? The info is the same since they share the board and the only thing it's not shared is the conditions of training witch is easily fixable in a future version by adding a option on the editor for that, you can choose the stadium atm why not choose if the conditions are shared and if not what's their value)

I think i didn't miss anything. So as you can see having one or two is basically the same.

Then you start asking why it isnt possible for the manager of the 1st team to control the B team, again IRL this DOESNT happen so it is not in the game, why should there be an option to change it in game when it isnt something that happens in football?

Depends on the rules of the league. Some let the main manager coach the B team some won't. Easily fixable by adding an option on the editor saying if the B team is trainable or not. And when i talked about an option i'm talking about the game structure, an option that you can change for example in the editor.

Finally, when have i ever said anything about these options shouldnt be available in the editor? If you want to make the game unrealistic go for it, dont throw that in now and say that i am against it, i really could not care less what you do in your save, you were talking about making it in the game, not being able to edit it in

It's not making the game unrealistic. It's making the game with a uniform B team structure that, for example, facilitate the implementation of the "adding B team" feature to other leagues and avoid some bugs like the ones being reported on the bugs section.

Dont sit there asking for an opinion if the only one you want is the one that says your idea is brilliant.

I didn't said your opinion wasn't welcome. I said t stop assuming that you know more then others! Telling others to do research on an area where you probably have much to research yourself is not a way to post an idea. Is more of an offense then posting ideas...

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IRL reserve teams and youth teams have their own managers too. Just because it's called B teams, II teams, C teams or even a complete different name(HJK/Klubi-04) doesn't change the fact that it is the reserve team of their first team.

About age restrictions, there are age restrictions for German II teams too, and it works fine in the game.

Also it's strange that the second team in Spain/Mexico are set as affiliate while those in Austria, Denmark, Norway, Germany, Finland, Romania, Slovakia, etc are set as internal. They all play in lower leagues.

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In this version they appear on your team as an extra squad, didn't you noticed that? Now, what's the difference between the two types:

- In one (affiliate) the B team buys/sells/sack your players without asking you. (wrong, you still have a word on it) - can agree on this point

- You can't set a tactic to the team (Well, if Guardiola ordered the B team manager to play with a specific tactic i don't think he would say no. You could argument that he can, well so the coach that trains another B team type, but he can't on Fm...) - this makes no sense, you are saying that Pep could tell Enrique what formation to play, of course he could, but it is Enrique's decision, hence why he is the B team manager, the A coach doesnt train the B team at all.

- You can't set some players to play (Again if Guardiola told the B team manager to put some player on the 11 don't think he would say no) - same as above, it is the B teams managers choice, and as I have said, No A team player can play for the B team.

- You have an information window (For what? The info is the same since they share the board and the only thing it's not shared is the conditions of training witch is easily fixable in a future version by adding a option on the editor for that, you can choose the stadium atm why not choose if the conditions are shared and if not what's their value) - again i never said anything about the editor, can do what you like in that.

I think i didn't miss anything. So as you can see having one or two is basically the same.

Depends on the rules of the league. Some let the main manager coach the B team some won't. Easily fixable by adding an option on the editor saying if the B team is trainable or not. And when i talked about an option i'm talking about the game structure, an option that you can change for example in the editor. - Again, i never said anything about letting you do what you want in the editor, you added this point in much later.

It's not making the game unrealistic. It's making the game with a uniform B team structure that, for example, facilitate the implementation of the "adding B team" feature to other leagues and avoid some bugs like the ones being reported on the bugs section. - wont bother with the editor comment again

I didn't said your opinion wasn't welcome. I said t stop assuming that you know more then others! Telling others to do research on an area where you probably have much to research yourself is not a way to post an idea. Is more of an offense then posting ideas... - i told you to research B leagues cause you knowledge of them seems poor at best, i wasnt meaning to offend, i apologise if you took offence to it.

It basically comes down to this. You stated you wanted something implemented into the game that doesnt need to be as it works fine as it is, then you changed half way through to say you wanted all of the stuff you were going on about added into the editor and not the game. I see no problem putting it into the editor so you can run the game how you want, i just do not want it to be changed in game as it reflects real football as it is and should not be changed

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IRL reserve teams and youth teams have their own managers too. Just because it's called B teams, II teams, C teams or even a complete different name(HJK/Klubi-04) doesn't change the fact that it is the reserve team of their first team.

About age restrictions, there are age restrictions for German II teams too, and it works fine in the game.

Also it's strange that the second team in Spain/Mexico are set as affiliate while those in Austria, Denmark, Norway, Germany, Finland, Romania, Slovakia, etc are set as internal. They all play in lower leagues.

Yes, exactly my point.

My guess is that they were created to overcome the 3 squad limit. In Portugal is the same case as Spain because there's a Reserve league in game too. (if the B Clubs was internal then we would have a potentially of 4 squads on a team which the game can't handle.

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