[FM11] Heathxxx Lower League Management Approach

[heathxxx]

For me the game tends to run fine. My current save is almost the same as above, although this time I've not bothered selecting Africa, Asia or North America. Same European and South American countries though.

Can take a little while to process between matches sometimes, but during those periods, I'm usually here in the forums.

Transfer windows usually take the longest time to process between clicks of "continue", but that's because the game is updating a lot of data to players who are moving clubs.

[Riziger]

Great read. I'm now playing with Accrington Stanley and even though I'm struggling, it's hooked me.

I'm also a little puzzled with the 4-4-2, 4-2-4. Not really sure which to use. I'm now using the 4-2-4 because I like that the wingers have more options available but I can't help feeling it will leave my midfield too exposed.

[Riziger]

I've continued with the 4-2-4 and I've noticed something. My team doesn't play bad, even against teams where we are supposed to get bashed, the game stays pretty even, and sometimes we even shade it slightly. However, my players just don't convert their chances. After every game the news report is "Stanley made to rue miss chances". And in the last 10 mins or so, we give away a sloppy goal, penalty etc.

I'm pretty pleased that my team is a hard working unit, I think my problem is attacking as I have very limited wingers who seem to drift in and out of matches. But I don't see why my strikers are not putting chances away, especially when 1 of them is Nikola Saric from Liverpool with 12 finishing and composure.

[deedeecoman]

@bonesoul

dunno what to say m8,

42-3-1 in league 2 and won jpt but..

havent had the pleasure of finding a dm who doesent need rest every 4 games while playing 2 advanced wingers,

if i play with dm i use support mc and attack mc so the dm is hard to handle.

who do u have as dm? (name of player pls)

[oobro]

A quick question but somewhat difficult for me to answer.:

What, for example, if you have a very decent player, who is a good player for role A, but you want him to play in role B.

How do you guys in general handle these situations where a player is better in a certain role, but you want him to play a different role for e.g. for better balance in the team.

E.g. You have a Good MC, and you want him to play as Central Midfielder (role) for the proper balance on the midfield, but his stats make him a better DLP.

Do you go for the balance and give him the role Central Midfielder, or do you give him the role as DLP

[Bonesoul]

@bonesoul

dunno what to say m8,

42-3-1 in league 2 and won jpt but..

havent had the pleasure of finding a dm who doesent need rest every 4 games while playing 2 advanced wingers,

if i play with dm i use support mc and attack mc so the dm is hard to handle.

who do u have as dm? (name of player pls)

Kind of hard to tell you as my current game save is now in Brazil lowest league, I got to the german top filight played a pretty successfull season there resigned and waited for a suitable Brazil oppertunity. Seven months of inactivity before one came up which is a right pain working through 5 days at a time, any more than 5 and there's a risk the jobs gone before you can apply.

What I can say is this.

A good cup run is great for the bottom line but hard on the players. As you get to the higher leagues players are more likely to be able to cope, but its always a trade off between ability to play lots of matches and other skills. As I understand it, the basic attributes required to play lots of matches are:

Stamina. The higher the stamina the less a game takes it out of a player.

Natural Fitness. Higher natural fitness means faster recovery time between games.

All the players abilities add together to give a quality level of X. So to get higher in one attribute you have to accept lower in another for the same quality level X. With X being the highest quality player you can attract at present.

My approach is to focus on young talent mostly, I prefer quick physical players with the potential to develop (at lesast my scouts say they have). It also means I tend to be able to negotiate wages for them, that are much lower than for an established player for the level. The down side tends to be weaker mental skills which should develop with time. Because I can get this type of player at bargin wages I always try to have a squad of 22 players, 2 of everything plus a few spares for injuries. They should all be pretty similar, but when I have to choose I will play my weaker players in cup games and stronger in the league. My goal is promotion, the cup is gravy (ask any Birmingham fan, too much gravy can destroy your meal), in the long term promotion will boost finances far better than a cup run.

Given my squad size and strategy, unless I have no choice, I never play a player who isnt 98-100% fit or needing to gain match fitness, so temporary 95% max. I guess you could say I have a promotion Squad and an "Other" squad. When the matches are comeing two a week, a player will almost never play in both and even with fairly poor stamina/nat. fitness players tend, to fully recover with a weeks gap between games (note. If your total training load is too high they wont recover and it may need tweaking a bit so they do). The only down side is to maintain match fitness in quiet periods, I have to rotate in the second string players to maintain their match fitness, or if reserve and youth team fixtures allow play sneaky reserve or youth team friendlies to top it up (put my "Other" team out vs my youth squad or reserves).

From the above you can see why I cant give you the name of a perfect DM for every game of the season, I've simply never had one. My solution has always been to have two and rotate as necessary. On a real tight budget, I guess a smaller squad could work providing some rotation is possible, or pull in youth players/reserves to fill the rotation gaps for cup games (I usualy have some ok players in the reserves whos abilities havent kept pace with promotion and im still trying to off load).

Hope this helps

Bone

[Shake Appeal]

Well, I finally decided to do this, after two saves with my usual top-division sides (Palermo on 11.1 until 2015; Juventus on 11.3 until 2016, though I'll probably go back to this game).

Started in England for once, with Spain and Italy also playable, and Brazil, Argentina, Germany, and France also running. I wanted to do it 'properly', too, so attributes are masked and I started unemployed, as an ex-professional.

Went ahead and applied for a few jobs, but from what was available I knew at a glance I wanted to kick off my career in the very depths of BSS, with Bromley. This is the first time I've gone this low in England (I've occasionally managed Pro Vercelli in Italy in other versions of FM), and I'm really enjoying it, just because the sums of money involved are so comically small compared to what I'm used to, and the match engine looks so clumsy!

First I cleared out the backroom staff while scouring the dimmest 'local' talent to find replacements. I was reasonably happy with what I was able to put together, though it's a far cry from what I'm used to.

Bromley have no transfer funds at all, so I was restricted to free transfers, but it turned out there were plenty of unattached players who were better than the squad I had, and who would happily accept more frugal wages. I convinced the board to raise the wage budget and started snapping up players on free transfers, sometimes taking them on trial to see their attributes. It turns out not being able to see attributes is the biggest obstacle to finding talent in that first week, especially while your rivals are picking up a lot of your potential targets faster than you can scout them. So I took a novel approach, and searched by personality instead (inexplicably, and unrealistically, you don't have to scout a player to know this...), believing as I do that the right mentality and a reasonable degree of speed and fitness will trump all else at this level.

Here's what I 'bought':

Once I was finished assembling my squad, I totted up the 'value' that had been assigned to these players I'd brought in for nothing. Came to a princely €300K or so. Not bad. Turns out it's harder to sell players, so I ended up offloading the useless ones for free, just to take their wages off the books.

Tactically, I set up a very dull attacking 4-4-2 (or 4-2-4, as the game calls it), focusing play down the wings with good young talent, or simply lumping the ball to a bog-standard striking pair (poacher ahead of a supportive deep-lying forward, whose role is to draw defenders or flick the ball on). All of my central midfielders are pretty leaden (including the disappointing Scottish ex-international who was supposed to be a decent DLP, but doesn't seem to have the legs even for that), but they have good determination and listen when I shout, and that's all I can really demand for now.

Anyway, it turns out lower league management is a breeze:

(Media prediction for this season was 8th, so this has been satisfying.)

Only downside is my club seems to be losing money steadily, and only FA Cup prize money is counterbalancing that right now. And since my next tie is against Gillingham from L2, that particular source of income is probably about to dry up.

If I can maintain this pace, and maybe nick another round or two in the cup, I suspect an unlikely insta-promotion in my first year should catch the eye of some higher-level clubs...

[salquay]

Had a fantastic three seasons with Newport County. First season play offs and Trophy final, season two promotion through play offs and won FA Trophy, nearing end of seaosn three and we are three points clear at the top of League Two and beat four League One clubs in the johnstone Paint Trophy. So, excellent system, works for me.

[Bonesoul]

@Shake Appeal. Check your expenditures against income and how far are you into the red each month. Things that can help are;

Any high salaried players around from your initial squad, either in your main team or as backup/unused? If so dump them for free or if not even release them. If you have to release them you will take a bank balance hit but improve monthly profits. At least to me if your in a profit, the board will be hapier even if the bank balance is more overdrawn. Also I believe your finacial accumen is based om monthly P&L not bank balance so its better for your own rep gains.

Do you have a very tiny ground. If so gate recipts will ust suck but you should be close to filling it. With consistent 90% ish gates ask for a new ground (if rented) or an expansion (if owned), it may take an attempt or two but you should get one. Comes with a nasty loan but now you have oppertunities to increase gate reciepts. A big ground with low attendances you just need promotion to help fill it. It will help later as you wont need an expansion as soon but has high maintenance costs vs revenues if you cant fill a fair bit of it.

Promotion is the goal. With promotion comes more income, in the long term far more than the odd good cup gate. The NPL2 is the first time you hyave a chance of a real windfall from any game other than the final (any Wembly game will give a nice boos but still less than the additional income recieved for just being in a higher league). I found its only around NPL1 or the championship where it becomes a financial grind for an original BSN/S club, its doable but they competition usualy has a massive income advantage so can take several seasons per promotion from then on.

Just a few things to consider.

Bone

[Shake Appeal]

Thanks for the tips. The first thing I tried to do was bring the wage budget down as much as possible, and this meant discovering it's hard to sell players at this level. I either had to give them away or release them, and in some cases it was purely motivated by the fact that I could get a teenager to fill the position just as well for half the cost. Anyway, I finished 1st in BSS by some distance (97 points to Farnborough's 79), and everyone was ecstatic. Along the way I beat Gillingham in the FA Cup, only to get hammered 0-6 by Sunderland (I blame the numerous in-game injuries that saw me finish out with nine men... and also we were ****). I went out of the FA Trophy in the 2nd round to eventual beaten finalists Crawley, who would also win the BSP that year. It did take them a replay at their place to get it done, though, after we drew 1-1 at home.

The board were hugely enthusiastic about me, but I dawdled over signing a new contract because I wanted to switch to Italy sooner than later (there is something grim about kicking a ball around in the mud and rain and sleet for six months of the year). The job at Pro Vercelli (one of my favourite clubs) had come up earlier in the season, but I'd stuck it out to put the BSS 'silverware' on my CV, and there weren't really any good alternatives. So ultimately I decided to stay on at Bromley another year for a reasonable pay increase, and started to rebuild the squad as cheaply as possible (signing more talented teenagers released by much better clubs, mostly, and giving thanks for my backroom staff, who seemed to have a good eye for said talent) in the hope of contesting for a second promotion straight away.

The stadium has a capacity of 5,000 (1,300 seated), and I am far, far from filling it and hitting the limit on what gate receipts can give me. But the games against Gillingham and Sunderland and a tight rein over expenses meant that while we still weren't exactly profitable, we had money set aside for a small transfer kitty over the summer, and a better wage budget that allowed me to hire more staff and expand the squad. I'm glad I did that, because it turns out the BSP league season is an unholy slog of 46 matches.

[Guest markyosullivan]

Healthxxx this post is inspirational. Its lead me to going back to trying it with a lower league club.

I have only 3 nations loaded: England, Spain and Italy (wish I had of picked France when I realised I couldn't get some of the players you recommended )

I've loaded all the reunion players, very handy for the Blue Sqr leagues!

Pre-Season

Started off with Bromley in the BSS, friendlies went well apart from the 3-0 defeat against Wolves. Asides from that drew 1 and won the rest (Had about 5/6 friendlies in total)

Pre-Match

Got bad news 2 weeks before the opening game of the Blue Sqr South season, French LB, Didier Caro, picked up a quite serious injury and had to be sent to a specialist (costing me roughly £500 p/w) for roughly 4 weeks roughly him out of the first game.

First Game of the Season!

Played my first BSS league match against Dorchester, won it 2-0. Terry Dixon (22) (MotM) and Martin Butler (pen 58) getting the goals, unfortunately Eric Farro injured (45).

Post-Match 15/08/2010

Thankfully Farro's injury seems to be only a knock he picked up from the game as it not longer shows him as being injured.

Update on Caro: Out between 5-9 days meaning he might make his debut in the 3rd league game of the season, and I would like to think if he misses that game that he'll be fit to play in the 4th league game.

Next Up

Boreham Wood (A) 17/8/10

[Shake Appeal]

Won the BSP at the first time of asking, also won whatever micky-mouse cup trophy those teams play for. Wasn't thrilled at the prospect of a 50+ game relegation dogfight in League Two, because our lack of funds/financial infrastructure meant doing well at that level so quickly would be tricky. But yeah, won two titles and a cup, turned Bromley professional, and then walked away after two years service. Moped about waiting for another job, preferably in Italy. Pro Vercelli job was not available. Finally, in September, the hapless manager of Triestina led the supposed promotion candidates to six defeats in the first seven matches of the season, and I stepped in to drag them out of the relegation size. So now I'm managing in Italy's third division. I guess this is the big time.

[Guest markyosullivan]

Won the BSP at the first time of asking, also won whatever micky-mouse cup trophy those teams play for. Wasn't thrilled at the prospect of a 50+ game relegation dogfight in League Two, because our lack of funds/financial infrastructure meant doing well at that level so quickly would be tricky. But yeah, won two titles and a cup, turned Bromley professional, and then walked away after two years service. Moped about waiting for another job, preferably in Italy. Pro Vercelli job was not available. Finally, in September, the hapless manager of Triestina led the supposed promotion candidates to six defeats in the first seven matches of the season, and I stepped in to drag them out of the relegation size. So now I'm managing in Italy's third division. I guess this is the big time.

Sounds good.

I'm hoping to win BSS this season and hopefully BSP next season if I get a few good signings in. Then I'm going to see how well I do in L2. Currently considering not spending much on new players, might try and keep the players from the BSP season and hope we can survive, would save me a lot of money if I get relegated back to BSP.

[sebs]

football manager can be weird. did the old galavanting 4-2-4 tactic for bsn and bsp and sealed back to back promotions. in league two i lost first three matches playing it and was expecting to have to fight to stay up. so i changed to a flat 4-5-1, cramming the midfield. got some creative centre mids in on loan and tried to fight back. i lost twice after christmas, got 57 points from 23 games and got promoted 2nd. overjoyed at back-to-back-to-back promotions and it's totally unexpected... i can't see us putting up much of a fight in league one, but who knows. i simply don't have the financial clout to do anything in league one.

[Tom14]

I posted a few weeks ago about my Hereford team that beat Wigan in a Carling Cup QF and how it was the best result of my FM career. Anyway, I had guided Hereford from the nPower LEague 2 to the Championship. After about 12 games I was shocked at how poor I was doing and I hadn't really prepared my squad that well for the start of the season. I was really struggling and I have to say I threw in the towel. I noticed an opening at my hometown club Barnsley in League 1 so I took a step back down.

Within 4 months I got Barnsley to the 4th round of the FA Cup where we were playing Man City. I think I actually gulped out loud when I watched the draw

However with the help of this thread and Heath's dirty tactics thread on how he beat Real Madrid I studied hard for about an hour before I went into the game trying to find weaknesses, looking at Man City's recent matches, who had done well against them and why, etc. Anyway with a little help from a very lenient ref, this was the result ...

My best accomplishment yet and all thanks to the great tips here and in the dirty tactics thread. Just thought I'd post because I don't do it that often but wanted to say thanks and to show you that these threads are invaluable. This victory is as much yours as mine

[Guest markyosullivan]

Currently 1st in BSS with Bromley though I'm starting to worry that I'm going to lose that top spot due to my team getting lots of injuries.

As of 17th Nov 2010

P: 16

W: 12

D: 2

L: 2

pts: 38

First team GK out injured, youth GK has to replace him.

2 Strikers out injured.

1 versatile Defender/Midfielder.

1 Winger/Striker.

1 Defender.

Considering getting a few more free transfers in. Currently looking into the possibility on getting players on loans, however I've struggled in other saves to get good players on loan to a BSS/BSN team.

[Bonesoul]

Sounds good.

I'm hoping to win BSS this season and hopefully BSP next season if I get a few good signings in. Then I'm going to see how well I do in L2. Currently considering not spending much on new players, might try and keep the players from the BSP season and hope we can survive, would save me a lot of money if I get relegated back to BSP.

BSN/S through to NPL1, even promotion from there to the the championship, should be quite doable. Your wage budget will be lower than the competition, but you should have plenty of a strong squad capable of promotion (for me with AFC Telford I had 2 of wach postition plus 3 utility spares for each league season). There are free players out there, available who are better than those in the teams of your major competitors, for a fraction of the wages even when you get to NPL1. Infact I dont think I have paid a transfer fee for a single player I have bought into AFC Telford, all the way to the Championship (took two seasons to get up from NPL1, I blame injuries). Every season I have connverted all but a nats bum of transfer fees into more wage budget, which has allowed me to have 20-25% free wage budget even with a big squad (dont forget bonuses for basic wages helps keep both within wages budget and reduces pay to benchwarmers).

The biggest problem is that the seasons half decided befoe a ball has been kicked. If I have found and bought the right players in the closed season its a push for promotion, if not theres only so much you can do with loans and the promotion chance can be gone before the Christmas window opens up.

One thing I would say is play with all atributes visible, I have this in my newer save started in Germany but not on my Telford save. Why? Because the mechanics for scouting are so tedious. I can scout a whole club reserves and youth with one scout over about 3 weeks (I might miss the odd one or any long term injuries), but have to select each player individualy and assign to a scout to do it. I found I was spending almost as much time purely on the mechanics of scouting as I was on matches. I wasnt initially even screening based on scout reccomendations, just doing it to get all attributes visible so I could trawl through them later. Given I was getting almost the same effect just by hours of clicking, having attributse visible was just plain common sense.

Stick with it

Bone

[Bonesoul]

Won the BSP at the first time of asking, also won whatever micky-mouse cup trophy those teams play for. Wasn't thrilled at the prospect of a 50+ game relegation dogfight in League Two, because our lack of funds/financial infrastructure meant doing well at that level so quickly would be tricky. But yeah, won two titles and a cup, turned Bromley professional, and then walked away after two years service. Moped about waiting for another job, preferably in Italy. Pro Vercelli job was not available. Finally, in September, the hapless manager of Triestina led the supposed promotion candidates to six defeats in the first seven matches of the season, and I stepped in to drag them out of the relegation size. So now I'm managing in Italy's third division. I guess this is the big time.

Especialy if you have a league in mind finding a new club can be a nightmare. I started my Latest save in Germany, took the team all the way to the Bundeslegue, then wanted to move to the Brazilian lowest league. So first I had to quit, no lower league club could afford the hit to hire me from a top club. Then it was 9 months of go on holiday for 5 days, check jobs, go on holiday for 5 days, check jobs etc. I found 5 days was the max or a job could come and go while I was on holiday. Thank god fro TV while the game engine was chugging away.

Bone

[Bonesoul]

Marky.

A big squad, Heath says at least 22 and I swear by it. Covers most injuries (my first NPL1 season was an exception, I think a squad of 100 would have failed, I had so many injuries) and turns those long cup runs into an advantage. You can put out an almost fully fresh squad on a wednesday against their tired one. Just keep your best squad for the league games, the cup runs only iceing, the league is the cake.

Hope things turn around

Bone

[sebs]

don't telford have a bit more financial and reputation clout, plus a few more fans and a bigger ground than other BSN/BSS sides? i don't know how bromley compare. but with hinckley i'm in tonnes of debt and my ground is packed in week in/week out. i don't want to devalue your achievements, they sound fantastic, but as with the person who was struggling with eastwood in league two - maybe different clubs at the bottom have different ceilings? i know heathxxx said something along the lines of it doesn't matter if you're getting back-to-back promotions or not because sometimes you have to stop and gather your team together again - but i really think with hinckley i'm going to have to take a step back and let the finances and reputation of the club recover and settle at a slightly higher level before i have an assault at any higher leagues.

am i wrong? i'm sorry, i didn't want to say "oh telford is easy"; it's not. but i think there are easy clubs and more difficult clubs, and for a BSN side telford are pretty well set up with a 6300 stadium and average attendances of 1500-2000 in BSN. with hinckley i have a 4300 stadium and an average attendance of 530 in BSN. from what i can see bromley have an average attendance of around 400 in BSS, eastwood 180 in BSN (!!!!). this has got to be more financially restrictive.

[sebs]

Marky.

A big squad, Heath says at least 22 and I swear by it. Covers most injuries (my first NPL1 season was an exception, I think a squad of 100 would have failed, I had so many injuries) and turns those long cup runs into an advantage. You can put out an almost fully fresh squad on a wednesday against their tired one. Just keep your best squad for the league games, the cup runs only iceing, the league is the cake.

Hope things turn around

Bone

this i totally agree with though. i feel guilty for having such a big squad and players not used and then see what i can do against tired teams in midweek games and love it. it's going to guarantee me survival this year if not a playoff push.

[Bonesoul]

don't telford have a bit more financial and reputation clout, plus a few more fans and a bigger ground than other BSN/BSS sides? i don't know how bromley compare. but with hinckley i'm in tonnes of debt and my ground is packed in week in/week out. i don't want to devalue your achievements, they sound fantastic, but as with the person who was struggling with eastwood in league two - maybe different clubs at the bottom have different ceilings? i know heathxxx said something along the lines of it doesn't matter if you're getting back-to-back promotions or not because sometimes you have to stop and gather your team together again - but i really think with hinckley i'm going to have to take a step back and let the finances and reputation of the club recover and settle at a slightly higher level before i have an assault at any higher leagues.

am i wrong? i'm sorry, i didn't want to say "oh telford is easy"; it's not. but i think there are easy clubs and more difficult clubs, and for a BSN side telford are pretty well set up with a 6300 stadium and average attendances of 1500-2000 in BSN. with hinckley i have a 4300 stadium and an average attendance of 530 in BSN. from what i can see bromley have an average attendance of around 400 in BSS, eastwood 180 in BSN (!!!!). this has got to be more financially restrictive.

Im sure you are right AFC Telford are in a better initial state than some other teams you can pick. As a note I picked them before even finding this thread as they are local, im from wolves just up the road and have actualy been to watch telford a few times as I have worked there twice in my career and my cousin lives there. Anyway having defended my choice here are my views.

Firstly this post reply is based on a goal of getting the team to the Premier league, not getting manager rep and moving on (i can and have played saves with goals of manager development rather than club).

So its build a club time. Sebs, you are right gates make the team that plus the boards ambition will drive what you can do and how fast. That said, with promotion comes two things, improved gates and higher league money. Its this higher revenue which should drive your better wage budget and hence allow you to at least compete in the new league you are promoted to. With careful rotation of better new players in and old players out once you have been promoted beyond their ability, you can have a team with an acceptable wage budget and even make a few quid on transfer fees if you are lucky (transfer fees are a bonus tbh, its getting rid of their wage bill im focused on).

Without actualy trining an Eastwood save I cant be sure, but the sort of disadvantage they face in the BSN I would think is similar to the one you face with AFC telford once you get them to NPL2, maybe NPL1. To some extent the gap narrows the farther you get as for both gates are never going to grow to match NPL1 plus level competition, the league fees become a much bigger portion of total revenue. With AFC Telford I am in the Championship and the money I get from just being there plus for finishing in position X in the league is likely to be almost as much as my gate reciepts. I'm in my own stadium not rented (it is at the start) and with a stadium expansion to 7,500, but mostly financed by loans. So to some extent im in debt but its ok as the value of the team seems to just about stay ahead of he debt.

Im quite interested in debt right now, my main save isnt telford atm (issues with the tedious process of scouting when all attributes not visible) bit one started in Germany and where I have jut taken a post at a pretty marginal Brazilian lowest league club. My plan is to achieve results on the pitch regardless of growing debt, at lower league clubs using your max available wage budget always seems to run up debt. My hope is that I can keep my job based on results, but a nice new chairman will step in to buy the club once debt gets high enough. I need it for an achievement on Steam, survive a takeover, so fingers crossed.

Anyway when I get bored of my current save I may take up the challenge of Eastwood and see how big the diference is.

Have fun

Bone

[markyosullivan]

Just an update for everyone (this is markyosullivan, changed my email address and had to pick a new username )

I'm going to be doing a LLM entry so keep an eye out for that. It'll be my first time doing one, so hopefully I'll do it right. All I'll say right now is that the first season went well, just about to start my second season.

Do you have to have 3 seasons completed first before making a post?

[heathxxx]

don't telford have a bit more financial and reputation clout, plus a few more fans and a bigger ground than other BSN/BSS sides? i don't know how bromley compare. but with hinckley i'm in tonnes of debt and my ground is packed in week in/week out. i don't want to devalue your achievements, they sound fantastic, but as with the person who was struggling with eastwood in league two - maybe different clubs at the bottom have different ceilings? i know heathxxx said something along the lines of it doesn't matter if you're getting back-to-back promotions or not because sometimes you have to stop and gather your team together again - but i really think with hinckley i'm going to have to take a step back and let the finances and reputation of the club recover and settle at a slightly higher level before i have an assault at any higher leagues.

am i wrong? i'm sorry, i didn't want to say "oh telford is easy"; it's not. but i think there are easy clubs and more difficult clubs, and for a BSN side telford are pretty well set up with a 6300 stadium and average attendances of 1500-2000 in BSN. with hinckley i have a 4300 stadium and an average attendance of 530 in BSN. from what i can see bromley have an average attendance of around 400 in BSS, eastwood 180 in BSN (!!!!). this has got to be more financially restrictive.

Telford are possibly a slightly easier club to start with, but attendances will grow over time with any club that's achieving some level of success, not to mention that as you rise up the leagues, attendances will be boosted by higher away support at matches.

It's vital to keep pushing the board for improvements though and finances will always be tight, so you have to keep in control when building teams. I always negotiated wages and if someone wanted far more than I could afford or was willing to pay, then I didn't sign them... simple as that. Between the BSN and League One with Telford, I spent very little on transfer fees. Mostly everyone was a free transfer. Club reputation is the most difficult thing to work around though, as this will impact the quality of players who will be willing to join. Sometimes it will push up their wage demands, which is a difficult part I discovered on reaching League One and trying to sign some quality players.

In my save, I ended up moving clubs, heading off to Australia and Central Coast Mariners. Perhaps I should have stayed at Telford, but I just fancied a change of scenery, having never managed in Australia. I probably could have won promotion to the Championship, but it would have been tough. Realistically, the Championship would probably have been the ceiling for the club, where it may have taken a season or two to improve both club facilities and the squad sufficiently for survival and a further push for promotion to the Premier League. That would then be extremely difficult and the first few seasons would be about survival and consolidation.

If anyone has glanced at some of dafuge's threads, they'll usually see that it takes him a few seasons to establish his little clubs, before he's able to win trophies at the highest level. In older versions of FM it was very easy to take a club from the lowest level, to the top flight, then challenge continentally. In recent versions it's tougher, but far from impossible. You just have to be mindful that you need to work to make the club itself prepared for that level, not just the playing squad.

You can still over-achieve though. My first season in the Spanish Liga BBVA with Granada CF saw me clinch the title away to Barcelona with a 1-1 draw. That's a different experience though, having started in the Liga adelante, only one tier below. Although I had far from the best squad, I had to work hard to ensure I had players who were capable enough to work to my tactical preferences, which varied a lot depending on opponents. It hasn't taken long to improve my facilities and general club structure. Third season into my Granada save, I now have top class training and youth facilities, a stadium that holds just over 24,000 and I've run a tight ship financially, making big profits in my transfer dealings.

[heathxxx]

Do you have to have 3 seasons completed first before making a post?

Not at all. I think if you were posting in the Lower League Managers forum, that's what they prefer. Generally not a good idea to post about your save both here and in the LLM forum though, as they have a certain way of playing the game, which includes a general mistrust of those posting in here and the Good Players and Teams Guide forum, due to them not wanting any player naming or tipping.

You're welcome to post whatever you want about your save here, so long as you mention what you're doing tactically, or what your overall managerial approach is.

[markyosullivan]

Not at all. I think if you were posting in the Lower League Managers forum, that's what they prefer. Generally not a good idea to post about your save both here and in the LLM forum though, as they have a certain way of playing the game, which includes a general mistrust of those posting in here and the Good Players and Teams Guide forum, due to them not wanting any player naming or tipping.

You're welcome to post whatever you want about your save here, so long as you mention what you're doing tactically, or what your overall managerial approach is.

I haven't seen anyone else post up similar posts to the ones I've seen in LLM here in the Tactics & Training Discussion forum.

Also are you allowed to disable player attribute masking for LLM? Like I can see the stats of all the players without scouting them atm.

[sebs]

bone - i used eastwood as an example cos someone in this thread had found they'd stagnated in league two with them and was finding it hard to progress. i'm playing as hinckley united (and similar to heath, i picked them because they're somewhat local)

ok, i'll give you some stats because i have to be honest, i've maxed out my wage budgets but i really don't think i'm overdoing it. i know that i've had a high turnover of players and yes i have spent some transfer budget but i did this to secure players i wanted even though i knew i could probably get similar players, but i know you can get your fingers burnt if you know you have a player who can do a job for you.

i suspect the main reason behind my financial profligacy is player bonuses.

first up finances.

balance: £428,661

last month expenditures:

player wages: £106,515

staff wages: £37,830

non-football costs: £24,590

bonuses: £32,255

ground maintenance: £10,581

tax: £31,261

match day expenses: £49,497

there's others such as loan repayments and interest, the total here is around £10,000 - total expenditure is £303,395

last month income:

gate receipts: £224,304

tv revenue: £42,690

merchandising: £5,933

match day income: £37,448

then there were some other things specific to that month such as my fa cup prize money and some additional payments from a player i sold last year. this totals about £27,000

so overall income: £335,290

in a normal month we just about break even WITH full houses and sell out home matches. the "match day expenses" have gone up tenfold since blue square north days. we haemorrage money in the off-season. i just had a disaster of being knocked out in the 2nd round of the fa cup so won't be able to recoup some cash by getting a big draw away to a premiership side.

coming up i'll post my squad list. max wage is £1500 a week, compared to the average wage for the league (£2.1k i do not think i am overpaying anyone)

[sebs]

i will add this is on december 1st and is just the first team.

a few notes on the squad:

harry bunn and aaron doran have long term injuries

i play a 4-5-1 with the midfield FLAT in a row of 5, very fluid, hence the glut of central midfielders. as they are the engine i do a lot of rotation here.

i've selected coaches "best position" - fyi here are players i play in different positions to what assistant manager considers their best -

nathan baker - cb. this guy is brilliant, however i feel i went overboard on his contract due to a persistant agent and i believe that i must sell in january to balance the books. i've set his asking price at £450k and barnsley are showing major interest.

kevin gemmill - lb

for me i am definitely paying charlie blake, nicolas kohlert and possible darius henderson too much. henderson had an injury and has struggled since he got back, but scored 20+ goals for me last year.

also - the squad is WAY too big isnt it? mama abidjo and teo leon are both future prospects due to take the place of heffernan and henderson. paul van stee won't be around for long. ryan markey is surplus and so is olly bashford (probably), but i will need him if i sell baker. i think i need to sell charni ekangamene if i can get anywhere near the supposed transfer value for him. but selling players is not an art i'm very good at.

[sebs]

well that's great, nathan baker gets injured next match and is out for 3 months

so not only will i not be able to sell him, i won't be able to play him and he'll still be ****ed off when he gets back.

[phnompenhandy]

I haven't seen anyone else post up similar posts to the ones I've seen in LLM here in the Tactics & Training Discussion forum.

I used to play LLaMa and contribute to that forum until I got banned for perusing this forum. I never looked at the Good Player guide forum, downloaded any PnP tactics or got unfair tips; I saw this forum as like a lower league manager reading The Inverted Pyramid. Nevertheless, they banned me. So don't go there.

[heathxxx]

You got off lighter than me... this is the reception I got...

In fairness, the Lower League Manager's forum is a pretty unique area. It's populated primarily by people who only tend to read or post in that one forum, who also never post or read anything in the Tactics forum here, or the Good Players & Teams Guide forum. Essentially, they prefer to play the game without any form of tipping or player naming whatsoever, use attribute masking and only scout places that they consider "realistic" for a small club.

For me, it's up to anyone to choose how they play the game, but we should also respect that the LLM forum has its own set of rules and requirements for those that choose to post there. Here, there's no such restrictions as to what you post, so long as it's tactically orientated.

[markyosullivan]

I only read this topic in this forum. I read it first and then I read a few of the stories in LLM which lead to me wanting to go and do LLM again. So I think I should be okay? :s

[fdawsoniv]

Whatever other LLM posters may think will not stop you from playing the game as you see fit, anyway.

[glynnbob]

hi small update on my eastwood save 2nd season i romped away with the bsn using a 4-3-3 formation im just about to start my 1st season in bsp and i have signed about 25 players all under 22 apart from vincent pericard.

i keep losing money hand over fist but the board keep putting 200k in the pot every few monnths sp im hoping my overacheiving will keep the pot topped up

couldnt agree more with people saying it's harder with smaller club's my ave att last season was 250-300

however those of you saying you can only take these clubs so far watch this space as i said earlier i took my hometown team(hucknall town to prem champions within 10-15 seasons on last years version and i wont be happy until iv'e done the same with eastwood(even if it is costing the chairman a fortune!!!!

i will keep updating as well wish me luck

[elazulreal]

I saw the topic after I decided to start a career with Telford. I follow your instructions and started with a 7-1 win against Hyde in the first league match.

Benjamin Martha is really an amazing player for LLM. You all should give him a chance.

First 5 matches: 5 wins... scored 22 goals while 4 conceded

[phnompenhandy]

In fairness, the Lower League Manager's forum is a pretty unique area. It's populated primarily by people who only tend to read or post in that one forum, who also never post or read anything in the Tactics forum here, or the Good Players & Teams Guide forum. Essentially, they prefer to play the game without any form of tipping or player naming whatsoever, use attribute masking and only scout places that they consider "realistic" for a small club.

I kept to all those rules. All of them. There was no rule saying a LLaMa couldn't check the T&T forum but the napoleons running it said it was implied and threw me out.

I'm much happier dwelling here anyway!

[lander]

First off, excellent thread. Spent some days reading through it all. Although I found that most of the tips presented are things that I try and work towards myself, it's still good to see that the same philosophies work for others. I did pick up a few things that I hadn't considered before (targeting weak opposing players, more focused OI.) I have — and to some extent still am — guilty of trying for more attractive football at lower levels than I perhaps should. Yes, we do manage to get some fantastic results. But in those matches where fancy football with lesser players don't work out, it can be a real struggle to even get away with a point. The most important thing is, me and my players enjoy our style of football, and we do manage to overachieve.

Now, the past two seasons I've come across a real headache so I'm looking for some input here. We start the season well, scoring goals for fun. (And at times conceding goals for fun as well.) Then, all of a sudden, my strikers seem incapable of putting away the easiest chances. Time and again my midfield carve open the opposition's defence, and time and again my strikers misses sitter after sitter.

Their finishing and composure and decisions are by and large good for this level of football. Their morale is good, with no signs of complacency. My coaches give no indication that they're inconsistent performers. I'm left scratching my head as to why all of a sudden they can't put away goalscoring opportunities that even a drunk pirate with a wooden leg would score.

What would/do you do when your strikeforce hits a dry patch? Just keep with it and hope that they start scoring again? Go more defensive so that you'll at least can get a draw? Be more demanding of them and start criticizing them?

At the moment, my main striker is out for three months and I've only got a reserve striker that I couldn't offload before the season, so rotating my strikers isn't really an option.

[heathxxx]

I kept to all those rules. All of them. There was no rule saying a LLaMa couldn't check the T&T forum but the napoleons running it said it was implied and threw me out.

I'm much happier dwelling here anyway!

Haha! Sounds familiar

[heathxxx]

Now, the past two seasons I've come across a real headache so I'm looking for some input here. We start the season well, scoring goals for fun. (And at times conceding goals for fun as well.) Then, all of a sudden, my strikers seem incapable of putting away the easiest chances. Time and again my midfield carve open the opposition's defence, and time and again my strikers misses sitter after sitter.

Their finishing and composure and decisions are by and large good for this level of football. Their morale is good, with no signs of complacency. My coaches give no indication that they're inconsistent performers. I'm left scratching my head as to why all of a sudden they can't put away goalscoring opportunities that even a drunk pirate with a wooden leg would score.

What would/do you do when your strikeforce hits a dry patch? Just keep with it and hope that they start scoring again? Go more defensive so that you'll at least can get a draw? Be more demanding of them and start criticizing them?

At the moment, my main striker is out for three months and I've only got a reserve striker that I couldn't offload before the season, so rotating my strikers isn't really an option.

The bit I've bolded at the end, is probably the main issue. He might not be suited to the role you're using him in, or the overall system you're using. If that seems to be the case, then I'd change his role to one that uses his key highlighted attributes. Also, praise and criticise in equal measure if you can. If he plays poorly, say below 6.4, then use the personal chat option and tell him he "needs to improve" on his last performance. If below 6.0, then you can probably be a bit stronger and say his last performance was "unacceptable". If he performs well in matches, 7.5 of higher, even if he doesn't score, then try praising his performances.

How you handle this backup striker, who's going to be your main striker whilst your prime choice is out injured, will be very important. If he suffers dips in morale easily, then use "no pressure" or "I have faith" type team talks with him. If he's a strong character, then you can probably "expect a performance".

The problem may not lie with just the striker though. One of the most common problems I tend to see people suffer from, is a great start to a season that suddenly seems to get derailed about half-way through, for seemingly no reason. Simply put, there's always usually a reason and it's up to the manager (you) to identify those reasons and try something different.

In the lower leagues of most northern European countries, the halfway point in the season is usually between November and January. This will also coincide with the worst pitch and weather conditions. If you're playing "pretty" football, chances are it won't work so well. You may still appear to dominate possession, but key elements of your tactical approach will certainly not be as effective as they are in good conditions. That's why it's important to try a more direct approach, use the wings more when the pitch is boggy so you don't get stuck in the quagmire in the middle, etc...

One thing that can be exploited, if you've players who are generally better than opponents at your level and have a good off the ball attribute, is using the shouts "get the ball forward" and "pass into space". This encourages your players to be a little more direct with their passing, whilst looking to put balls through into space that a man with good off the ball, can latch onto. Obviously good anticipation will help there too. Sluggish defenders in the lower leagues will struggle more against teams who attack space and have players who are good at both passing into space and drifting into it, or timing their runs, off the ball.

Some consider "Defensive" to be exactly that, but in combination with good shouts, it can actually be quite offensive. I look at it as a further way to tell my men to remain tight and compact at the back, whilst with shouts like "get the ball forward", "pass into space", "exploit the flanks", along with others like "pump the ball into the box", give you attacking impetus on the break, without actually using the counter-attack setting.

[lander]

Well, the last season is over with and we ended up in a respectable third place, albeit six points away from promotion.

For the record, I'm managing Nardo in the Norwegian first division. Took the job straight from the start and won the Second division title in my first season. I'm still hampered by low attendances and the strange rules in Norway regarding homegrown players. (My under-19s players counts towards my 11 man limit of non-homegrown players, unlike in England where under 21s doesn't count towards the registered squad.) When we got promoted, we were forced to install underground heating, which put us around £500k in the red, and it's only now in our third season in the first division that our balance is in the black.

Now regarding my previous post and my follow up on our league position, don't get me wrong — I'm proud to have overachieved in all seasons so far. But I still can't shake that nagging feeling that we could have been in the Norwegian premier division by now if my strikers forgot how to score. At least our reputation has grown and our finances have recovered, which in turn means better quality players.

I do manage to keep confidence and morale high, even when my players underperform. As a rule of thumb, below 6.5 means "try and do better," below 6.0 means "unacceptable." I praise my players, and I know which response to take if they don't agree with my praise or criticism. (I find man management to be the easiest part of FM, actually.) Now, when my teams performs poorly I do very much get the urge to give everyone a hairdryer, fine them two weeks wages and send them to the reserves. Instead, I'll get a cup of coffee, take a deep breath and begin any needed damage limitation and prepare for the next match.

Thanks for your input, Heath. It's very well written, and I've tried to make similar changes during and between matches. It still doesn't quite get the results I want. Maybe I'm just expecting too much and should work on appreciating what I've achieved so far.

[heathxxx]

Could be expecting too much, but then there's nothing wrong with being ambitious.

Sometimes I think with smaller clubs, you can reach a period where your team and club is at a plateau. Progress levels out and it mainly a case of improving the squad and the structure of the club, before the next big push to the summit.

I've never actually played in Scandinavian leagues like Norway, Sweden or Finland, so it's interesting to hear how you're doing. Obviously as the seasons run through different times of the year to others in Europe, weather effects and pitch conditions will also differ.

Those weather differences are important to get used to in whichever country you manage. It's something I try to plan for managing in my current save in Spain. For example, one week I could be playing Malaga, where in the winter it's usually mild, dry and fairly warm, then the next week I could be playing one of the Galician teams in the north-west of Spain, which tends to have more rainfall over winter than the UK. The effect on my tactical decisions are that one week I could be playing a short passing game, whilst the next week, using a more direct approach.

I like detail like that though, as it all adds to the overall challenge.

[PaulWottonFootballGenius]

heathxxx, in your OP you say that you spend lots of time manually searching for players. Is there a way to filter your searches to the clubs you want or do you have to scour through every club in that nation? Also what nations have the best pool of talent that will join a BSS/BSN level team?

[heathxxx]

heathxxx, in your OP you say that you spend lots of time manually searching for players. Is there a way to filter your searches to the clubs you want or do you have to scour through every club in that nation? Also what nations have the best pool of talent that will join a BSS/BSN level team?

Unfortunately, manually searching through clubs is the best way to find players. Bear in mind that the quality of the scouts you'll have available, won't present a great many players through the normal search options. Likewise, scouting countries and regions will find some, but not the larger majority of some of the players I tend to sign.

When it comes to specific "pools of talent", I tend to find that France has the biggest pool of quality lower league players. Usually, I search through French CFA (A, B, C, D) divisional clubs first, with the exception of the reserve sides that feature at that level. I'll also search through non-league French clubs too, via World>National Clubs>France (as I have the French leagues loaded and all data at the start of the game for the whole country). I then filter out all the playable leagues, leaving only "Other" available. This then shows just the non-league sides in France, on the game database.

The only other good pool of players, that are usually easy to sign are in Réunion. To look through these, I go to World>Nations>Africa>Réunion then click the "Clubs" tab and sift through the teams.

Of course there's other countries that have decent players in the lower leagues and non-league, but often they're not interested in moving to the BSN/BSS, or they want high wages I don't particularly want to spend. The players from France and Réunion might sometimes start with higher wage demands, but they're often easy to negotiate downwards. For example, but without trawling back through the thread and from memory, players like goalie Thierry Gorée opened wage negotiations at between 500 to 600 pounds per week, but I was able to haggle those down to between 200 to 300 pounds per week. Effectively half what they were asking.

That makes negotiation very important and can make a huge difference to the financial health of your club, which in turn will allow you to have a bigger squad and more options available. In real terms, I was able to get rid of pretty much my entire starting squad, bring in almost double the amount of players, with far better quality, yet still remain well under the wage budget. Considering many clubs you'll start with will often be on or around the wage limit to begin with, saving money early on will not only make an immediate difference, but help things in the longer term too.

In both instances of looking through France or Réunion, I'm ideally looking for players on amateur contracts. This means that not only will I be able to sign them for free and without any compensation to their club, but I'll also have much more room to manoeuvre when negotiating wages.

[lander]

Could be expecting too much, but then there's nothing wrong with being ambitious.

Sometimes I think with smaller clubs, you can reach a period where your team and club is at a plateau. Progress levels out and it mainly a case of improving the squad and the structure of the club, before the next big push to the summit.

I've never actually played in Scandinavian leagues like Norway, Sweden or Finland, so it's interesting to hear how you're doing. Obviously as the seasons run through different times of the year to others in Europe, weather effects and pitch conditions will also differ.

Those weather differences are important to get used to in whichever country you manage. It's something I try to plan for managing in my current save in Spain. For example, one week I could be playing Malaga, where in the winter it's usually mild, dry and fairly warm, then the next week I could be playing one of the Galician teams in the north-west of Spain, which tends to have more rainfall over winter than the UK. The effect on my tactical decisions are that one week I could be playing a short passing game, whilst the next week, using a more direct approach.

I like detail like that though, as it all adds to the overall challenge.

For me, it's the attention to detail in every department which brings me back to football manager. Yes, there are areas where the game could improve, but overall it does make you feel like you're in control of your team. You reap the rewards of your good decisions, and you'll have to live with the mistakes you make.

From my experience managing teams in England, I'd say the Norwegian climate is slighty colder than northern England. (Take a look at the world map, and it would be correct.) Weather in matches seems to be as it should, with the occasional surprise.

The Norwegian league runs from late March/early April until the first week of December, with a four week break in june/july. I must admit, I can't wait to get my reputation high enough to attract attention from English clubs. I'm a huge fan of English football, and I'm used to managing in England in previous FM editions. The — at times — horrible weather in Norway, the stupid fixture structure, and the mind-numbingly idiotic rules on squad registration is making me want away.

Still, this save of mine is a huge undertaking, so I'll be patiently waiting for the opportunity to take over an English lower league side. (I started with the top leagues of all nations loaded, plus all playable leagues in England and Norway. Started with Sunday League footballer experience, and took the available job at Nardo — a club that resides about a 30 minute walk from where I live.)

[heathxxx]

Weather in matches seems to be as it should, with the occasional surprise.

Generally, yes. Though much to my surprise whilst managing Central Coast Mariners in Australia, I played a match at Adelaide in heavy snow! Needless to say, it's something I mentioned in the bugs forum.

The Norwegian league runs from late March/early April until the first week of December, with a four week break in june/july. I must admit, I can't wait to get my reputation high enough to attract attention from English clubs. I'm a huge fan of English football, and I'm used to managing in England in previous FM editions. The — at times — horrible weather in Norway, the stupid fixture structure, and the mind-numbingly idiotic rules on squad registration is making me want away.

Started with Sunday League footballer experience, and took the available job at Nardo; a club that resides about a 30 minute walk from where I live.)

That was quite a coincidence then.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Loja C.D. make it through the Tercera División play-offs and win a place in the Segunda B4 next season, as they'll be playable in FM12 then. There'd be no prizes for guessing which team I'd start an FM12 "Lower League" thread with then.

They're 3-2 up from the first leg of their Semi-Final tie against San Fernando, so a win will put them in the final. How well they'd survive in the Segunda B4, I can't say for sure, but I've seen worse teams when Granada CF were playing at that level during the 2009/2010 season promotion winning campaign.

Loja is about ten minutes drive from where I live, along with Huetor Tajar, which is ten minutes in the opposite direction. Both are featured in FM, but they're unplayable at the moment unless they happen to appear in the Segunda B4 at some point. I always keep my fingers crossed that either come through and have vowed that whoever I'm managing and in whatever save, should either appear in a playable league, I'll resign and apply for their job.

[lander]

Generally, yes. Though much to my surprise whilst managing Central Coast Mariners in Australia, I played a match at Adelaide in heavy snow! Needless to say, it's something I mentioned in the bugs forum.

I saw that earlier in the thread. Heck, I've had matches in August where it snowed. Plausible, yes. But not very likely.

On that note, it actually hailed just a couple of hours ago. We've had some warm weather these past few days with afternoon thunder, so it's quite the temperamental weather at the moment.

That was quite a coincidence then.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Loja C.D. make it through the Tercera División play-offs and win a place in the Segunda B4 next season, as they'll be playable in FM12 then. There'd be no prizes for guessing which team I'd start an FM12 "Lower League" thread with then.

They're 3-2 up from the first leg of their Semi-Final tie against San Fernando, so a win will put them in the final. How well they'd survive in the Segunda B4, I can't say for sure, but I've seen worse teams when Granada CF were playing at that level during the 2009/2010 season promotion winning campaign.

Loja is about ten minutes drive from where I live, along with Huetor Tajar, which is ten minutes in the opposite direction. Both are featured in FM, but they're unplayable at the moment unless they happen to appear in the Segunda B4 at some point. I always keep my fingers crossed that either come through and have vowed that whoever I'm managing and in whatever save, should either appear in a playable league, I'll resign and apply for their job.

It was a coincidence. Started unemployed in another save and got offered the Nardo job then. So when I started this huge save I'm working on now, I figured I'd might as well go with it, seeing as they had no manager at the start of the save.

I've been wanting to get the manager job at a club from my hometown where I spent some years in my youth doing cross-country skiing and athletics. Unfortunately, they've not been willing to pay compensation, and they got relegated this year. (Though, seeing as my ambition is to take over a club in England and get the heck out of Norway, I'm glad I didn't have to go through the struggles of getting yet another poor team to overachieve.)

Yet another season is over with, and I'm glad to say we've still managed to overachieve. Though not by the margin we've done so far. A slump in form over the last half of the season (including two runs of four matches without a win) saw us drop from second place and ending up in 5th. Still, our reputation keeps growing, and profits are high. The board has agreed to convert 400 seats and upgrading our training facilities. So all in all a successful season. But there are issues with performances that have popped up three years running now that I really need to work on. I'm happy to overachieve, but I'm concerned that we keep bottling any chance of promotion come crunch time.

I admit, once any team in England becomes interested in my services, I'll pack my bags and jump ship. Yes, I feel there is a lot of potential in this team and that promotion is just around the corner. But the single most frustrating thing is the lack of a reserves league in Norway. Second teams play in the lower divisions (at least two divisions below the first team.) In FM, this means that my reserves won't get any matches until I've been in the Premier divison for some time — if at all. I'm forced to keep rotating players to maintain match fitness, or keep the squad so small that any injury will become a serious issue.

[Bonesoul]

Generally, yes. Though much to my surprise whilst managing Central Coast Mariners in Australia, I played a match at Adelaide in heavy snow! Needless to say, it's something I mentioned in the bugs forum.

I saw that earlier in the thread. Heck, I've had matches in August where it snowed. Plausible, yes. But not very likely.

On that note, it actually hailed just a couple of hours ago. We've had some warm weather these past few days with afternoon thunder, so it's quite the temperamental weather at the moment.

FM dosent have Hail as a weather condition as far as I know, so snow would be the closest thing to hail available in the game engine. Though uncommon its quite possible to get serious hail in Australia, I cant say for Adelade but my brother has been living in Sydney for the last 8 years. In his first year there and three years ago they had serious hail and I mean serious, the first occasion the balls of ice were the size of golf balls and they had to claim for damage to both their cars on the insurance. So for snow in Adelade read hail and the potential for the whole team having concussion after the game . My only advice buy a reinforced steel umbrella!!!

On that point, I cant actualy remember a single game in all the seasons I have played actualy being called off fo bad weather? I have had matches galore rearranged for the TV but not one cancelled for bad weather, can it even hapen?

Cheers

Bone

[Coentrao]

I've had matches postponned in Italy because of snow so it can definetly happen and i'm not trying to be pedantic but i think i've seen Hail on the weather as well.

[lander]

FM dosent have Hail as a weather condition as far as I know, so snow would be the closest thing to hail available in the game engine. Though uncommon its quite possible to get serious hail in Australia, I cant say for Adelade but my brother has been living in Sydney for the last 8 years. In his first year there and three years ago they had serious hail and I mean serious, the first occasion the balls of ice were the size of golf balls and they had to claim for damage to both their cars on the insurance. So for snow in Adelade read hail and the potential for the whole team having concussion after the game . My only advice buy a reinforced steel umbrella!!!

On that point, I cant actualy remember a single game in all the seasons I have played actualy being called off fo bad weather? I have had matches galore rearranged for the TV but not one cancelled for bad weather, can it even hapen?

Cheers

Bone

I'm pretty sure I saw "Hail, 1' c" in a forecast for an upcoming fixture once. If I remember correctly, it ended up snowing but still.

We've had a real hailstorm back in mid May. There's metal roofing where I live, so you can imagine the noise as it came down. Looking out of my window, with a WTF? expression on my face, I'd estimate the pellets to be about 5-7 mm in diameter. Insane!

I seem to remember a match in FM 09 got postponed due to bad weather. It's only ever happened to me once, though, but I'd guess it's still a possibility in FM 11. A rare occurance, but still a possibility. Just my guess.

Back to my first post and the problems with my team, I finally figured out what might have been the cause. And I feel really stupid for this. I've always been adamant about the importance of mental attributes, especially in the lower leagues. What use is a fairly skillful attacker if he can't be bothered to put in the effort to make it count when it counts?

Guess what? My team has become less and less determined as I've rotated personell over the past few seasons. Duh! I've brought in young-ish talent that had the technical skills for their roles, but low-ish determination, safe in the knowledge that I'd let some of my older but very determined players tutor them. Then I've forgot about it, or released the more determined players, and ended up with a squad where I had at most 15 in determination (an old fringe player), and the rest where around 8-11, some as low as 6. SIX!

For three seasons I've been stupidly thinking I had squad who might not be the most techinally gifted players, but they'd at least put in the effort. Not so much. I only found out when I accidentally checked on a pre-match advice screen. I've been ignoring them, since the only advice I've gotten was "they score and concede around the X minute mark" and "we have stamina/speed/flair disadvantage." But once I checked on a pre-match advice, to my horror I found "determination disadvantage." That's when I realized my stupid, stupid error.

I thought I had squad that just was becoming complacent and taking survival in the league for granted, but it was me who had become complacent about the mental strength of my squad.

From now on, you may address me as Thick Thickert from Thickville, Thickistan.

I may also have pinpointed further reasons to my strikers' profligacy: Technique. I've been too focused on composure and finishing when it comes to strikers' ability to finish. But technique plays a vital part as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always read composure as their mental ability to withstand pressure from opposing keepers and defenders, finishing as their ability to choose the right time to release the right placed shot, and technique as their ability to strike the ball in the intended fashion. Guess what? My strikers have low-ish technique. Composure and finishing is good for this level, around 11-14, but it's hampered by technique around 9-12. (Actual numbers have varied from striker to striker.)

Again, it's been staring me in the face the whole time, and I've just not been able to see it. Yet another facepalm moment for me.

And a final point, but this is purely speculation. I think some of my players may have low consistency attributes. Not low enough for scouts and coaches to report that they're inconsistent performers, but low enough that it still has a major influence on their performances. I've not checked with any editors, but I'm thinking that low-ish consistency ratings may well be an issue with some of my players past and present.

[Bonesoul]

Lander

Its interesting that you focus on determination so much. I must admit the mental attributes (determination in particular) are something I have been concentrating on more having read Heaths comments on determination a few pages of posts ago. I would be interested in your views (and Heaths of course) on my approach.

My current main save has me at the moment managing in Brazil, infact I just got promoted from the 3rd division to the second and am about to start a new season with the state championship before my foray into the Brazilian division 2. In some ways I hate Brazilian football, at least the FM variety , the majority of teams play with a 4-2-2-2 formation that is no wide mids at all but 2x DM, 2x CM and 2x SC. In a lot of my posts I have mentioned that in a 4-4-2 is formation dropping one of your CM's back to a DM makes a big difference in terms of protecting the defence and making it harder to score against you. With 2 DM's in front of the defence of most of my Brazilian opposition its a nightmare and hence my dislike ( they arent supposed to stop me scoreing are they!!! ). To make matters worse it appears to me that the central midfield is the absolute engine of the match. That is to say you have to at least complete in numbers there or the posession % for a game is just so massivley against you its hard to achieve anything. Though playing wide midfielders would on the face of it give you a great outlet when you are in posession, unless you match the opposition numbers in the central midfield you just dont get the chance to make them pay, its more holding out against an onslought as they have the ball all the time.

So back to determinationand my preferred tactics, which I hope I will have a chance to use in the Brazillian division 2. My preference is to have two base prepared tactics, my first choice being my button formation (as I call it) with a backup being a modified 4-5-1.

The modified 4-5-1 is 2x Cd, 2x wing back, 1xDM, 2x CM, 2x Attacking Midfield (Wingers or Inside Forward, preferrablyone of each) and 1x SC. My Button formation is 2x CD, 2x wing back, 1x DM, 1x CM, 2x Attacking Midfield (both wingers) and 2x SC. I call it a Button because most of the players make a circle, with the DM and CM making the two holes in the button. The reason I like the two options as my key formations is with a little flexibility in the player positions (an SC who can also play as an attacking midfielder/ inside forward and an attacking midfielder who can play CM) I can swap back and forth between the two formations even without making a sibstitution. As a note im a firm believer that changes to your attacking setup helps confuse the opposition and increase your chances of scoreing, even if I dont swap formation I will often swithc my SC's etc to makt the opposition think (I believe the computer managers tend to man mark rathr than zonal and the players in the game engine take a while to adjust if you switch).

With the above my attitude to mental attributes is as follows.

The three I generally focus on ( and were originaly my only focus) are the ones that can be targeted by myself with OI's so bravery, concentration and decisions. With Heaths psot and now yours i have now added determination but only in 3 or 4 positions. Using my Button formation as a base, this is my current approach.

2x CD : Here I tend to play stopper/ cover. My stopper CD is one of the positions I am very keen to have good determination and interestingly stamina, he's the workhorse of the CD pairing. Its almost a front back rather than left right zonal system, with the stopper following the ball and trying to win it. The cover im not so bothed about determination (I dont ant it at the 2-3 level) but for my cover im much more interested in pace positioning and anticipation. He's almost a sweeper except I dont mind if he wins the ball or just jockeys the opposition SC until the Stopper can get back to win it. The cover's job is to stop that killer pass or turning of the stopper giving the opposition a chance on goal.

2x wing back : Here the key is positioning, pace and stamina with either passing or crossing. Im not to bothered about determination, their job is to run a lot and when defending hold up any opposition break (fine if they can tackle and win the ball but the key is slowing down any opposition break while supporting any attacking moves).

2x attacking midfield : The emphasis here is on attack with covering an overlapping wing back if the opposition gets the ball as secondary. Pace, Stamina, Off the Ball and positioning with either passing or crossing as their offensive foil. Again there job is to hold things up when necessary, while the team gets back into position rather than necessarily win the ball when the opposition has posession. Determination not essential at all. I get qutie a few goals when these guys turn up at the back post.

2x SC : Here I am torn. One of my SC's I dont give a stuff about Determination, I want him to have Pace, Acceleration, Off the Ball, Anticipation and Dribbling with the obvious finishing attributes. He is set as attack with the other SC set as support and is usualy on the right (depending on footedness). He scores most of my goals (especially in the lower leagues) and most of them are from break aways. In general my shouts are get the ball forwards and pass into space, this guy is the one that get spast the opposition CD's for one on ones with their GK. His pace also makes him the one that gets the classic opposition goal kick, we win the central mid field header, their CD's cant catch him to prevent a one on one with their GK type chance. The other is where I am torn, he's more of a target man creator than a goal scorer. High balls or to feet depending on his attributes, this guy is the one who causes trouble when its not a break-away. Im much more focused on him having good determination now, he has to win the ball in challenges where my other SC tends to be free and clear for most of his chances.

1x CM, 1x DM : These are the guys (my button holes) who make sure have a fair shake posession wise. The CM is more focused on the attack and I play in a as support while the DM is more focused on defense and protecting the back four. Idealy my CM is the most creative player in the team with good passing, its his job to make sure my front 4ish get the ball in good positions. My DM is cover, especial as I have two wing backs, he is the Claude Makélélé of my team. The most iportant an if possible best player in the team (average attribute wise). He dosent get forwards (set to defensive), he's no David Beckham with killer balls, but he's the guy who steps across when the opposition win the ball and break with my wing backs out of position. Hes the guy who man marks an oppositon AMC whos playing in the hole, a simple passer whos just always in the right place at the right time. If i cant find a Claude then a Xavi Alonso or Roy Keen type player is an alternative who can break forwards (Keen) or sacrifices defensive skill for creativity (Alonso). Javier Mascherano or Gennaro Gattuso also fit the bill, pit bulls in the who allow the rest of the team to play their game. Just look at the England central midfield and you see the issue, Gerard, Lampard and even Rooney are all basically the same player who want to either break or drop into the hole and be creative. To me its why the Lampard/Gerard combination just dosent work it forces Gerard to play the DMC role loosing his creative break forward ability or both are in the same ten square feet of space in the hole, with Rooney who has dropped back to get the ball, lets face it Rooney isnt a traditional SC either. So we end up with Barry plus ANO which we never stick with as the medias cant see us not playing Lampard or Gerard. So getting off my rant and onto FM, Determination is an absolute key for my two button holes (CM and DM) they are the players that allow the restof my formation to work.

So after a lomg winded poory focussed poat/rant we end up with 3 key players (4 if you count the second SC) who the way I am currently thinking realy need high determination. If you consider my philosophy is to have a squad of 2 plus 3-4 utility players, thats 3-8 players who it os essential have good determination. Assuming those players are over 24 they can act as mentors for younger players, so I can develop determination in younger playes with luck, but outside of the key positions determination is a bonus. This is especially true in the lower leagues, where its always a trade off on attibutes for players you can attract to the club.

So what do you think, do you consider determination essential in positions I dont, do you value other attributes over determination for certain positions (as I do for my DC cover or one of my SC's).

As always together we get better, I would value your input.

Bone