I want to return this broken product.

[anagain]

No I was referring to the guy before me who compared it to Windows...........And I said I haven't minded the bugs from other years but this one destroys the game for me.

<Snip>

I quote you:

I don't mind the bugs from last year's ME, or the fact that for that last 5 FMs the AI have been buying players and putting them in the reserves

Ok, this transfer bug? This is the situation at a few clubs in my current save - June 2011 (maybe a bit early but still useful I say):

English Premier

Man Utd - Owen leaving in on free (game doesn't rate him more likely than bug - he's hardly a regular at Utd in rl); Ji-Sung listed (same as Owen - but well thought of by Fergie in rl)

Arsenal - Wilshere listed, unhappy, request (asking price 4 times that of value - not played much)

Chelsea/Liverpool - nothing unusual

Italian Serie A

Juventus - Melo listed unhappy request (asking price equal to value)

AC Milan/Inter - nothing unusual

Spanish Liga BBVA

Barcelona - Jonathan, Bartra and Hleb listed

Real Madrid - nothing unusual

German League

Bayern Munich - Ribery left for £12.5 million to Chelsea

It's only a small selection but, as you can see, there isn't really anything untoward in June 2011 in my save. Hence my game is extremely playable.

[anagain]

I think SI should release the patch more frequently. The current patching plan ( 3 patches per game) is complete ********.

I'm aware that SI is not as big as other game developing companies, and FM series is their only leading releases each year but for the sake of the loyal customers they should increase productivity in their side.

I'm tired of being used as tester for each FM releases and I'm sure all of us are. Even now we have to wait more than a month to get the next patch and hope that the bugs that we encounter are solved in the new patch. If not then wait until 11.3 . Even then there's no guarantee that it will be solved. If the bug is not even solved in the last patch then.....OH WELL....Here Comes FM 12. The new FM fever kicks in.

Each and every patch need extensive testing or you just end up with the problems that you are all accusing SI of manufacturing almost definitely happening. People have accused them of releasing a game untested and you want them to rush patches out?

[crouchaldinho]

Rant rating - 7.5/10. Not bad, could be better.

To be honest, it's about time the SI Forums censored the word 'fanboy'. It just gets boring. If you can't give constructive feedback or have a discussion without using this word then please stop posting.

[Delvish]

I'm actually not blaming SI exactly because they have 12 months to develop a game of massive intricacy. However, I do blame the BETA testers who, in SI's own words on a thread a few days back, basically register as testers then don't give any feedback; they simply use it as a way of playing the new game early.

Blaming Beta-testers is nonsense, they are usually volunteers and don't get a single penny for their efforts. Instead, concentrate your frustration on a QA department, who actually get paid for the job.

Cmon people you have been buying the product long enough to know what to expect.

So you're suggesting, what's expectable should be considered as normal ? Cmon.

Maybe they could release the early product to everyone on the forums and let everyone be testers as it is us forum members they find everything

And isn't this the case right now ? The game is released to everyone on this forum and we are good willingly testing it and report to the bug section. The only thing that is wrong here is that we pay from our pockets to experience the game testing process, instead of vice-versa.

Even if I was enjoying it I wouldnt defend it because I know many aren't and that's not right, a game shouldnt be released and then find out you have to play a certain way for it to be enjoyed.

That is a very right approach. The world is is not spinning around you.

I don't mind the bugs from last year's ME, or the fact that for that last 5 FMs the AI have been buying players and putting them in the reserves but this year SI have made a mockery of our intelligence thinking that we'd be happy buying a game that isn't finished and isn't true to life

Fact. It's been broken for years. I've made a thread about the issue which I'll be keeping updated:

AI teams still send top players to reserves !

[Tubey84]

Anagain, all well and good - but have you tried offering players to other clubs yet

GillsMan...

Can't fault what you're saying there really. It's just for me the problems are definitely an annoyance to the point where I can't really be bothered playing the game; I do appreciate not everyone feels the same way, but I can only report on my own experiences with the game and I have to assume that given the game is hard-coded that everyone experiences the problem but depending on individual gaming style differences it impacts in different degrees.

as I said, I'm on record as having hated FM09, and not particularly enjoyed FM10

Snap Although FM10 was "ok" FM09 really was horrid though.

Actually, I think TT&F'10 was one of the sole reasons I enjoyed FM10 - my absolute hatred of TT&F09 however has probably disqualified me from any sort of modship on most FM sites ever again xD

Blaming Beta-testers is nonsense, they are usually volunteers and don't get a single penny for their efforts. Instead, concentrate your frustration on a QA department, who actually get paid for the job.

I can't bring myself to blame SI wholly for the problems encountered. It is a hell of a complex game with different variables. As I said before, the only fault I can aim at SI is not being a mega-company with the resources needed to fully develop a game of this magnitude year on year. As such, in my opinion the game should be released on a two year cycle.

I point the finger at Beta testers because they are responsible for a wider area of testing to point out bugs, which they by and large are not doing. Yes, they're not paid, but the selfishness displayed combined with SI simply not having the time to isolate every single error means that every year we're treated to a retail version of FM riddled with bugs.

I'd suggest that SI handpick those on the forums with an obvious passion for the game to test extensively before release. Or, release the game on a bloody two year cycle already!

[Äktsjon Männ]

Each and every patch need extensive testing or you just end up with the problems that you are all accusing SI of manufacturing almost definitely happening. People have accused them of releasing a game untested and you want them to rush patches out?

More frequent patch releases would expose all the problems to wider audience while also giving SI a chance to deal with major problems quicker. People would also be more willing to deal with knock on effects if they know they won't have to wait several months to get these fixed. It's quite obvious that SI's internal testing process isn't effective enough to deliver a polished version of the game before 4 or 5 months development post release anyway so there's not much to lose here from the customers point of view.

edit - Personally I love FM 2009 and am still playing it. I do agree that FM 2010 is overall a better game than 2009 but the match engine is inferior (and infuriating at times) so I don't feel I can properly enjoy playing it. Bottom line is though, both 9.3.0 and 10.3.0 are very good games without major bugs and I'm sure 11.3.0 will be the same. That doesn't mean we shouldn't expect a better gaming experience until that though so people are right to point out the glaring issues with FM11. Even if some tend to go over the top with their criticism we have to understand that they're rightly frustrated with a product they paid money for.

[anagain]

More frequent patch releases would expose all the problems to wider audience while also giving SI a chance to deal with major problems quicker. People would also be more willing to deal with knock on effects if they know they won't have to wait several months to get these fixed. It's quite obvious that SI's internal testing process isn't effective enough to deliver a polished version of the game before 4 or 5 months development post release anyway so there's not much to lose here from the customers point of view.

edit - Personally I love FM 2009 and am still playing it. I do agree that FM 2010 is overall a better game than 2009 but the match engine is inferior (and infuriating at times) so I don't feel I can properly enjoy playing it. Bottom line is though' date=' both 9.3.0 and 10.3.0 are very good games without major bugs and I'm sure 11.3.0 will be the same. That doesn't mean we shouldn't expect a better gaming experience until that though so people are right to point out the glaring issues with FM11. Even if some tend to go over the top with their criticism we have to understand that they're rightly frustrated with a product they paid money for.[/quote']

Sorry, but people are moaning irrationally about bugs now and you think they'd be happy to see a chance of more as long as they know they're going to be fixed? They're going to be fixed now and people aren't happy. SI have already issued a patch on the day of release and they have issued a hotfix. Who knows if they are not going to hotfix the transfer issue (or bug if you want to call it that)? We don't know. Perhaps they have in-devhouse plans to hot fix it before the next patch in the new year?

I agree people are right to point out issues, but are they right to rant and rave unconstructively and continue to abuse SI despite their best efforts, which I am sure they try to achieve? Anyone would think they sit there in a little room trying to work out the best way to rob us and how to hide blatant bugs within the code.

I'm sure SI would love a bigger and broader testing team, but would you be willing to add more money to the cost of the purchase of your game? Do you expect SI to cut earnings? Perhaps expanding a network of free testers is something to look at. I'm sure they do it now though.

Bugs will always get through. There are just so many different combinations of game setup and so many different factors that can enter into a FM save.

[Nik_Dut]

i have played this game and i felt more excited on reporting bugs to SI rather than enjoying the game. Sadly, most of my reports is ignored. LOL.

[Tubey84]

i have played this game and i felt more excited on reporting bugs to SI rather than enjoying the game. Sadly, most of my reports is ignored. LOL.

In Beta or since release?

Anyway, most game companies are useless at fixing bug reports. Famously, Blizzard Entertainment released a major patch for World of Warcraft recently that had been on the Player Test Realms for over two months - the patch was horribly bugged, despite numerous reporting of a massive amount of the bugs.

So I'm actually pretty sure that game companies "rush out" (for want of a better term) retail games to a) capitalise on certain release dates, like Christmas or the start of the Premier League season or b) make the game available to the wider public to use as a Player Test for improving the game "in transit".

[Delvish]

i have played this game and i felt more excited on reporting bugs to SI rather than enjoying the game. Sadly, most of my reports is ignored. LOL.

Exactly the same here

[anagain]

i have played this game and i felt more excited on reporting bugs to SI rather than enjoying the game. Sadly, most of my reports is ignored. LOL.

I doubt they ignore anything. They may not reply but I suspect they have a team checking bug reports. It might be that you are reporting known issues.

You might want to be more specific in your reporting too. List steps taken to reproduce the bug clearly and include a save or match highlights etc.

There are guidelines to reporting bugs.

[rancer890]

Okay, lots of things to reply to..

1. SI releasing FM every 2 years - it doesn't make economic sense. SI pay for license fees, production, Miles' wages, among other things. FM is SI's source of income. If EA and their crappy thing called 'FIFA Manager' can sell well every year, SI will sell the game every year. Stop suggesting that they should release the game every 2 years because it's not happening.

2. No one's forcing you to buy the game when it's released...

3. All games will have bugs. All games IMO are rushed and released early...it's just how it is these days . They gotta make money at the end of the day and the bottom line is profit

4. That being said, SI treat us far better than those other companies and try to fix most problems. I keep seeing those FM07 threads, but FM07 wasn't the best game out of the box either. Let's give a fair assessment in 2 patches time.

5. Don't call me a fanboy. In fact, I rant about this game more than most people, but I don't bother posting my issue all the time. Just one big thread after the 3rd patch. In short: SORTMLSOUTSI!!!

[themadsheep2001]

Anagain, all well and good - but have you tried offering players to other clubs yet

GillsMan...

Can't fault what you're saying there really. It's just for me the problems are definitely an annoyance to the point where I can't really be bothered playing the game; I do appreciate not everyone feels the same way, but I can only report on my own experiences with the game and I have to assume that given the game is hard-coded that everyone experiences the problem but depending on individual gaming style differences it impacts in different degrees.

Snap Although FM10 was "ok" FM09 really was horrid though.

Actually, I think TT&F'10 was one of the sole reasons I enjoyed FM10 - my absolute hatred of TT&F09 however has probably disqualified me from any sort of modship on most FM sites ever again xD

I can't bring myself to blame SI wholly for the problems encountered. It is a hell of a complex game with different variables. As I said before, the only fault I can aim at SI is not being a mega-company with the resources needed to fully develop a game of this magnitude year on year. As such, in my opinion the game should be released on a two year cycle.

I point the finger at Beta testers because they are responsible for a wider area of testing to point out bugs, which they by and large are not doing. Yes, they're not paid, but the selfishness displayed combined with SI simply not having the time to isolate every single error means that every year we're treated to a retail version of FM riddled with bugs.

I'd suggest that SI handpick those on the forums with an obvious passion for the game to test extensively before release. Or, release the game on a bloody two year cycle already!

+1 for this, the beta testers have seemingly failed on their part, and SI have been left holding the can. Definitely agree that SI should handpick some dedicated people from the forum, I'd rather not have to wait every two years for the game!

Bugs wise, not experienced the transfer bug anywhere near as severly as people seem to, nor have i had any real problems with player interactions, but its still shame they are there

But by and large SI do better and better each year, and sometimes you cant help but feel they victims of their own success

[Bicycle]

Wow, what a brilliant, brilliant OP. Sums up all of my frustrations with this game perfectly.

[Tubey84]

Okay, lots of things to reply to..

1. SI releasing FM every 2 years - it doesn't make economic sense. SI pay for license fees, production, Miles' wages, among other things. FM is SI's source of income. If EA and their crappy thing called 'FIFA Manager' can sell well every year, SI will sell the game every year. Stop suggesting that they should release the game every 2 years because it's not happening.

2. No one's forcing you to buy the game when it's released...

3. All games will have bugs. All games IMO are rushed and released early...it's just how it is these days . They gotta make money at the end of the day and the bottom line is profit

4. That being said, SI treat us far better than those other companies and try to fix most problems. I keep seeing those FM07 threads, but FM07 wasn't the best game out of the box either. Let's give a fair assessment in 2 patches time.

5. Don't call me a fanboy. In fact, I rant about this game more than most people, but I don't bother posting my issue all the time. Just one big thread after the 3rd patch. In short: SORTMLSOUTSI!!!

1 and 2 contradict. If people do 2, then SI lose money. I'd like to see the game released on a two year cycle with a "pay for access" update because it would guarantee that we get an entire season bug-free out of the game at the very least, and it gives SI the chance to develop a complete product throughout the two years.

Economically, you're right, they'd probably lose money initially despite the profit from the seasonal update, but I'd predict they'd sell the next incarnation of FM in record sales after the two year cycle as everyone will be craving for it. And I honestly believe an FM developed by SI over two years would be a mind-blower in terms of its quality, especially given the tantalising improvements being made at the moment.

But it's a pipe dream. If a decent Beta testing format can be developed, the 12 month cycle would work of course.

[Thunda]

To be fair, its not just FM / SI / Sega that this is the problem with - its every game / developer / publisher .. and us, the mug consumer, continues to put up with the same crap. Go to any forum for any game out there and you'll see the same thread as this one in various incarnations.

Oh, to the good old days when the internet didn't exist and games had to be released in a finished state .. theres way too much reliance on patching through the interwebby and developers and publishers rely on it now. The same thing is slowly starting to creep into console games now as a lot of people have their console connected to the net too .. but previously they couldn't do it with consoles as most weren't connected.

This is becoming a major issue with the gaming industry and the developers / publishers are either too dumb, ignorant or just don't care about it as long as they get their ££s .. but its slowly killing the games industry as many people are waking up to it and refusing to buy (or claiming not to!!!) on day 1 .. in turn, its probably increasing piracey as people don't want to pay £30 / £40 for a broken product.

I vowed this year not to buy FM for 2 reasons - 1) all you pay for is a slight update and 2) its never in a really fit state to play for 2 or 3 patches ..

But I gave in .. :o( ... but to be fair, I've not experienced or not been affected by a lot of the above stuff .. I tend to just get on with it and try and work around and adapt when silly things go on.

But .. next year .. I promise .. I promise I tell ya .. I'll be waiting and watching instead .. (yeah, yeah ...)

[Äktsjon Männ]

Sorry, but people are moaning irrationally about bugs now and you think they'd be happy to see a chance of more as long as they know they're going to be fixed? They're going to be fixed now and people aren't happy. SI have already issued a patch on the day of release and they have issued a hotfix. Who knows if they are not going to hotfix the transfer issue (or bug if you want to call it that)? We don't know. Perhaps they have in-devhouse plans to hot fix it before the next patch in the new year?

I agree people are right to point out issues, but are they right to rant and rave unconstructively and continue to abuse SI despite their best efforts, which I am sure they try to achieve? Anyone would think they sit there in a little room trying to work out the best way to rob us and how to hide blatant bugs within the code.

I'm sure SI would love a bigger and broader testing team, but would you be willing to add more money to the cost of the purchase of your game? Do you expect SI to cut earnings? Perhaps expanding a network of free testers is something to look at. I'm sure they do it now though.

Bugs will always get through. There are just so many different combinations of game setup and so many different factors that can enter into a FM save.

People aren't happy because they know they probably have to wait until March to get this game's transfer market and interaction module to function as intended. Sure, there is a chance the December patch will improve things but there's no information coming from SI about the process or probable hotfixes (which are probably unlikely) so all people can do is wait. And tell you what, there will be plenty of new bugs in the next patch anyway, new issues as well as knock on effects if the past few editions of this game are anything to go by. Then it's another 3 months of waiting until there's a more polished product. Releasing more builds will provide an opportunity to fix more serious issues while helping collect more feedback about all the minor bugs. It works for plenty of games and there's no reason why it shouldn't work for this. More irrational moaning? Well boo hoo, there's going to be enough of that from now until March either way.

[Neil Brock]

To be honest I'm not a huge fan of people criticising us for not being so 'visible' on the forums following release - we are visible, we're just in the bugs forums responding to users and the like rather than the generalised threads in GD. We obviously appreciate feedback even if it is critical, because it's with that we can progress forward with the game. There are some bugs we're unhappy have made it into the final game of course, and we're working to rectify them. Some people find the game very enjoyable and playable at the moment, others don't. Ideally we'd have everyone enjoying the game. But don't think we're not listening or that we don't care because that's not the case. We play the game ourselves so it's not just a 'cash cow' or anything like that - we're passionate about this game.

We'd appreciate if you do come across any issues you take the time to bring them up in the bugs forum if you can and are willing. We don't expect you to be 'testing' the game for us at all, but if you can afford the time to help us out of course we'd appreciate it. Cheers.

[fmmachin]

Ill be honest I am so irritated by this new game, I brought it through steam and I dont think I have ever been so 'hacked off' in all my life, i just start a game, sign the odd player and then when it comes to a match it goes all the way to the team selection then freezes and comes up with the image in my post.

[Delvish]

We'd appreciate if you do come across any issues you take the time to bring them up in the bugs forum if you can and are willing. We don't expect you to be 'testing' the game for us at all, but if you can afford the time to help us out of course we'd appreciate it. Cheers.

I'm afraid we've little choice here, as I do not expect to be testing the game either when I get 1.0 version, but the only other alternative to "testing" is not to play the game until it is fixed.

[Tubey84]

To be honest I'm not a huge fan of people criticising us for not being so 'visible' on the forums following release - we are visible, we're just in the bugs forums responding to users and the like rather than the generalised threads in GD. We obviously appreciate feedback even if it is critical, because it's with that we can progress forward with the game. There are some bugs we're unhappy have made it into the final game of course, and we're working to rectify them. Some people find the game very enjoyable and playable at the moment, others don't. Ideally we'd have everyone enjoying the game. But don't think we're not listening or that we don't care because that's not the case. We play the game ourselves so it's not just a 'cash cow' or anything like that - we're passionate about this game.

We'd appreciate if you do come across any issues you take the time to bring them up in the bugs forum if you can and are willing. We don't expect you to be 'testing' the game for us at all, but if you can afford the time to help us out of course we'd appreciate it. Cheers.

I actually don't expect you to be watching this forum right now and I'm actually happy to hear the focus is on the bugs forum ^^ I think some people do have to understand that this is General Discussion for the players and not the Bugs forum.

Can I make a quick request though - is it possible to have some sort of thread that dynamically acknowledges that a bug has been identified? Literally just so we can point the thread out to people raging on here about an issue that has already been addressed.

I don't mean ridiculously detailed information on "how" you're fixing it. Just a checklist stickied.

Like:

KNOWN ISSUES (Patch 4.0.11):

* Transfer system is reportedly producing unusual transfer activity.

* Red card are seemingly frequent in number.

* Penalty conversion rates appear to be low.

* Offering players to other clubs has a very low success rate.

* Players are becoming unhappy for inane reasons following manager discussions.

* Morale varies wildly from game to game (switching from Superb to Very Poor after a 0-0 draw etc.)

* The Spanish league has an issue with the yellow card suspension system. A suspension is received after two yellow cards.

If any of these issues are affecting you, please visit our Bugs Forum and report the issue. We may ask you to upload your saved game for further analysis by our team - instructions for this may be found here.

Just a thought If this already exists then ignore me completely or, better yet, point me to it xD

[FrazT]

Ill be honest I am so irritated by this new game, I brought it through steam and I dont think I have ever been so 'hacked off' in all my life, i just start a game, sign the odd player and then when it comes to a match it goes all the way to the team selection then freezes and comes up with the image in my post.

This is not the place for a crash dump- look or post in the Bugs forum but read the FAQ before doing so please.

[fmmachin]

I've tried a fair few things to sort this problem out and have even resorted to e-mailing steam, who are absolutely useless. I just want an answer as I'm desperate to play the new game

[MrPompey]

Anagain, all well and good - but have you tried offering players to other clubs yet

GillsMan...

I point the finger at Beta testers because they are responsible for a wider area of testing to point out bugs, which they by and large are not doing. Yes, they're not paid, but the selfishness displayed combined with SI simply not having the time to isolate every single error means that every year we're treated to a retail version of FM riddled with bugs.

I'd suggest that SI handpick those on the forums with an obvious passion for the game to test extensively before release. Or, release the game on a bloody two year cycle already!

I think you may be on very shaky ground pointing a finger at the beta testers and I'll let one of the SI guys explain why if they'd care to.

However given your hardcore statements I'd suggest you volunteer to test the patch(es) or even FM2012 so that you can do something positive if you feel so strongley about it. Its likely these reasons that unpaid FM gameplayers have become beta tsters themselves. I agree with your concerns around the issues you highlight but finger pointing and blameing selfless beta testers who are trying to improve the game for the benefit of all people but whom receive no payment for giving up their free time is completely out of order. You have no idea of the process or of the suffering they've saved you through their efforts. Who knows...the issues may have already been reported prior to release. The big problem with identfying and fixing an issue in such a complex product is that a change in one module, no matter how small, can have a massive knock effect elsewhere. These are often not simple fixes and as we've discussed they don't affect 100% of all FMer's.

I like you look forward to receive the fixes as I like you want an error free and enjoyable game and ideally I'd want it on release day. For what ever reasons its not.

Alternatively we could all just stop buying it and then we'd have no FM at all. I'm sure there is some middle ground. I'm no fanboy, I'm just a keen FM gamer who'd like a bug free FM game the same as you

[Matt ex SEGA]

I've tried a fair few things to sort this problem out and have even resorted to e-mailing steam, who are absolutely useless. I just want an answer as I'm desperate to play the new game

I'd suggest a quick look in here:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/233554-Football-Manager-2011-FAQ?p=6066643&viewfull=1#post6066643

And if that fails then SEGA Customer Services will be able to help you out. http://help.sega.com/?group=englishuk&t=EnglishUK

Cheers

Matt

[rancer890]

1 and 2 contradict. If people do 2, then SI lose money. I'd like to see the game released on a two year cycle with a "pay for access" update because it would guarantee that we get an entire season bug-free out of the game at the very least, and it gives SI the chance to develop a complete product throughout the two years.

Economically, you're right, they'd probably lose money initially despite the profit from the seasonal update, but I'd predict they'd sell the next incarnation of FM in record sales after the two year cycle as everyone will be craving for it. And I honestly believe an FM developed by SI over two years would be a mind-blower in terms of its quality, especially given the tantalising improvements being made at the moment.

But it's a pipe dream. If a decent Beta testing format can be developed, the 12 month cycle would work of course.

Forgot to add #6...

6. You can't return FM. Due to the laws in your country, you cannot refund opened video games. Just so you know...

Now that we got that out of the way...

I don't see that happening. SI are basically freezing development of the game for another year of roster updates when the FM fansites can produce that exact same update for FREE. Essentially you're asking SI to produce 5-6 patches for one game where they don't get much incentive for doing, as well as freezing all new features for another year.

And instead of craving for it, most people just might stop buying the game till those 'pay for access' updates come. Which means SI lose even more money. People already crave for FM every year. It's not like double the number will buy the game if it's released every 2 years.

SI might be contracted obligated to release a game to please some of the FAs they pay to license, although you and I probably don't know that for a fact. (I do know though that the F12010 license that Codemasters have, they have to release a new game every year)

Why fix something that ain't (economically) broke?

And 2. is more directed to those whiners who keep complaining the game is broke and don't offer realistic solutions. We get it. Opening a thread everyday complaining about it isn't going to help. All it does is irritate SI and pretty soon they're add you to the ignore list...

Bottom line, it doesn't make sense to change a successful model that's working. It's not in their best interests.

[Brian Shanahan]

I got offended by the other guy telling me to come back when I know what I'm talking about......

So you get offended by people making reasonable comments to refute your arguements then?

Look the fact of the matter is that SI are owned, run and staffed by people who are passionate about the game of football and about their own game. Im believe that they are also lucky in having a publisher like Sega who are willing to let them do what they want and not what the marketing guys tell them. That makes for a far bigger advantage over a lot of other developers.

Take for example the disaster that is Civ V. It is clear from the release that John Shafer didn't know what that game was about and was reacting (and still is) to what was perceived as popular changes and the marketing strategy of 2KGames. Take two examples 1) Roads are ugly; solution, make roads cost mega maintenance so as to stop ugly road spam. Result massive trun wastage and bottlenecks all over the place due to lack of movement options. 2) SoDs are too boring and tactically samey; solution 1upt. Result rush to overpowered units like horsemen, Greek uniques or Artillery and win the game. But the worst problem was that the designers in a game which was designed to give advantage to small empires managed to make ICS the only viable win option (well it would be if the AI wasn't so dumb). This was a mechanic completely removed from Civ IV. Yeah nice work in making the opposite of what you want happen guys.

This kind of idiocy I can never see happening with FM due to the fact that SI want to protect their game, they want to give us a deeper more accurate and better simulation every year.

As regards bugs, have you ever player FO3 or FONV. Those two games are far more buggy than any version of FM (though FONV is not as gamebreakingly buggy IMO). There are literally thousands of bugs from your arms floating up in mid air when you crouch (putting your aim way off), through NPCs following you around and robbing you blind after you save them (FO3), to missions being almost unplayable (side-mission in FONV being unplayable due to enemies marked as belonging to a faction central to a main mission afterwards).

I have never seen a version of FM to even remotely come close to the level of bugginess of these two games (and I could go further if you want). Now I'm not saying we shouldn't report bugs or not expect them fixed, but on the other hand we have to recognise that FM comes to us in far better shape than many other games in this regard. Look at CM2010 if you don't believe me.

The fact of the matter is that going around complaining that this game is unplayable and that you're going to boycott SI forever because of it is stupid and counter-productive. By all accounts raise your voice if there are problems (and there are, I can't use Alt+F9 to take screenshots for instance), log them in the proper forum. You could even try to offer solutions like the person (forget his name) which try to fix the problems mentioned in the game. But also don't be coming on here screaming bloody blue murder because SI haven't patched the game to perfection yesterday. They are working as hard and as fast as they can and will bring out the patches when they are ready. And also accept that at least some of what you are going to call problems will be either down to the system you use or the way you play the game. For example I've racked up 79 yellows and 6 reds in 25 league games in my first season, but I'm not saying the refs are being too harsh, I see the most of the fouls and I realise that it is because of the very attacking and pressing game I have my teams playing.

[flashback790]

I agree with everything the OP has stated, i'm sticking with Assassin's Creed Brotherhood and GT5 until after xmas.

[Football Manager.]

yeah its really dissapointing with that bit as manchester city id love to have a challenge still ive always been city and always will be but after picking up drogba for £0 and ronaldo for £12M i find that i could easily do the same job at a villa and just build them up for a few years before these kind of offers come about.

[stonini90]

enough with the moan, this game is almost perfect

[Bicycle]

enough with the moan, this game is almost perfect

Oh please, don't kid yourself.

[Ackter]

Would just like to clear up one misapprehension that I always see bandied about here.

SI do not have 12 months to make the game. The game is made in 6-7 months with the rest of the year spent supporting it.

[Yoav17]

Even without the crashing, it's inferior to fm10.

Shame.

[Roman Chevalier]

FM11 has huge potential, thing is, i don't see why i have to wait till March to see it. Or rather, i don't see why i have to pay £30 to essentially be a beta tester for 5 months.

But for the transfer BUG, the amount of yellows/reds, the one-on-ones(supposedley fixed in the patch), this is the best FM so far.

I can live with the interaction/morale thing, as i don't see them as issues as such. The others render the game unplayable if you want to play in the higher leagues. Atleast they are doing something out it but still, how can you not test a game properly, or release a game with these issues(spain/france/transfer bugs) in it i don't know. This game costs us money, it's not acceptable.

Anyway, hopefully the sentiment of quite a significant amount of fans is now well and truly established with SI/Sega.

[Sad Git]

I haven't bought FM11 yet. Ha!

[Tubey84]

I think you may be on very shaky ground pointing a finger at the beta testers and I'll let one of the SI guys explain why if they'd care to.

However given your hardcore statements I'd suggest you volunteer to test the patch(es) or even FM2012 so that you can do something positive if you feel so strongley about it. Its likely these reasons that unpaid FM gameplayers have become beta tsters themselves. I agree with your concerns around the issues you highlight but finger pointing and blameing selfless beta testers who are trying to improve the game for the benefit of all people but whom receive no payment for giving up their free time is completely out of order. You have no idea of the process or of the suffering they've saved you through their efforts. Who knows...the issues may have already been reported prior to release. The big problem with identfying and fixing an issue in such a complex product is that a change in one module, no matter how small, can have a massive knock effect elsewhere. These are often not simple fixes and as we've discussed they don't affect 100% of all FMer's.

I like you look forward to receive the fixes as I like you want an error free and enjoyable game and ideally I'd want it on release day. For what ever reasons its not.

Alternatively we could all just stop buying it and then we'd have no FM at all. I'm sure there is some middle ground. I'm no fanboy, I'm just a keen FM gamer who'd like a bug free FM game the same as you

"Well the one thing I say about open Beta's, and I have plenty of experience of them, is that there are massive drawbacks to them.

First they use up resources and time, not a big deal if you're getting lots of good feedback... BUT

Many people can't be bothered to give feedback, instead they just use the Beta as a chance to get some free gaming in.

Second

We run a Beta, anyone can apply for a spot on it you just have to look for the thread and when it comes iand send in your application, but as I said before many people don't bother giving feedback, there are some that do and we're always thankful for them, but as for extending the program, it's harder and more time consuming to administrate then you'd imagine."

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...=1#post6121006

Also, I've said repeatedly in this thread that games are notoriously difficult to sort out bugs.

I assume you're a Beta tester so I'm guessing that's why you're taking offence to what I said. I stick by what I say though - Beta testers are either not doing their role properly or the Beta system isn't working as intended. I don't think it's a huge leap of faith to consider Beta testers signing up for a sneak peak at the next FM.

[crowsus]

Would just like to clear up one misapprehension that I always see bandied about here.

SI do not have 12 months to make the game. The game is made in 6-7 months with the rest of the year spent supporting it.

That is a fair point.

But it is also worth suggesting that SI must be doing fairly well financially since every year the latest FM hits the top of the charts, therefore could they not employ even more people to make sure the new game comes out as bug-free and near to the start of the season as possible (particulalry since the player stats and presumably most of the supporting framework are the previous season's anyway)?

Of course this possibility will have been considered and a lot of time and effort goes into updating the game and introducing new features, but it doesn't seem to be good enough IMO.

By the time the 3rd patch comes out in March each year, most of the season on which that version is based on is almost gone.

Cynics may suggest this is deliberate to encourage players to get the new improved version as soon as they can and continue the cycle, but I would say that if the game could be released by mid-September and all the patches released by Christmas, players would still enjoy it enough (and possibly get sick of the limitations of the current version and the promises of the next) to want to buy the new version in any case.

At present it's not rushed out but is still unfinished when it is released!

[Nik_Dut]

i'm not anything close to a programmer, so pardon me if my nest question is sound a bit dumb. if the transfer system and all the bugs seems ti be fixed and handled well since fm 09- fm 10.3, why is the almost same bugs still appear in 11 ?

[kkas]

havnt read the whole thread but hardly anything the op said qualified as a bug is that unrealistic, could probably think of lots of real life examples.Most realistic fm to date although i agree the player interaction is severely lacking

[AndyPass]

FM11 has huge potential, thing is, i don't see why i have to wait till March to see it. Or rather, i don't see why i have to pay £30 to essentially be a beta tester for 5 months.

But for the transfer BUG, the amount of yellows/reds, the one-on-ones(supposedley fixed in the patch), this is the best FM so far.

I can live with the interaction/morale thing, as i don't see them as issues as such. The others render the game unplayable if you want to play in the higher leagues. Atleast they are doing something out it but still, how can you not test a game properly, or release a game with these issues(spain/france/transfer bugs) in it i don't know. This game costs us money, it's not acceptable.

Anyway, hopefully the sentiment of quite a significant amount of fans is now well and truly established with SI/Sega.

I agree 100% with this. It's been the same for the last few versions too. I don't understand how you can go from a fantastic version after the 2nd or 3rd patch, and then back to square one with the new release.

You get right royally ripped off for computer games in Oz. FM costs over 50 pounds despite the strong Aussie dollar, and I for one am fed up with buying the game, and then having to wait a few months before I can play the fully-patched final product.

I will NEVER be buying this game on release date EVER again - much in the same way that I wouldn't buy a jumper where the sleeves are yet to be sewn on, or an ice-cream without the cone!

[k.n.o.w.l.e.s]

Well I am flippin loving it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cynet]

To be honest I'm not a huge fan of people criticising us for not being so 'visible' on the forums following release - we are visible, we're just in the bugs forums responding to users and the like rather than the generalised threads in GD. We obviously appreciate feedback even if it is critical, because it's with that we can progress forward with the game. There are some bugs we're unhappy have made it into the final game of course, and we're working to rectify them. Some people find the game very enjoyable and playable at the moment, others don't. Ideally we'd have everyone enjoying the game. But don't think we're not listening or that we don't care because that's not the case. We play the game ourselves so it's not just a 'cash cow' or anything like that - we're passionate about this game.

We'd appreciate if you do come across any issues you take the time to bring them up in the bugs forum if you can and are willing. We don't expect you to be 'testing' the game for us at all, but if you can afford the time to help us out of course we'd appreciate it. Cheers.

Neil has made a valid, responsible comment and he's right, not a fanboy, but he has been precise in how the company feel's and what they intend to achieve.

[Major Raver]

Opening Post is brilliant and sums things up a treat.

Neil's post is equally brilliant to in response.

I've gone back to FM10 because I find certain issues spoil my enjoyment, but not for a second do I think SI don't care or are they trying to sort things out, as history has proved they do care and try to listen and put right all they can.

Worst thing on here is the abuse, and the "fan boys", the forums could do without both sets of people.

It doesn't work for many people, have patientce and like Neil said post your findings in the bugs forum. You can't complain if you don't try to be constructive and help!

[Indran1412]

To be honest I'm not a huge fan of people criticising us for not being so 'visible' on the forums following release - we are visible, we're just in the bugs forums responding to users and the like rather than the generalised threads in GD. We obviously appreciate feedback even if it is critical, because it's with that we can progress forward with the game. There are some bugs we're unhappy have made it into the final game of course, and we're working to rectify them. Some people find the game very enjoyable and playable at the moment, others don't. Ideally we'd have everyone enjoying the game. But don't think we're not listening or that we don't care because that's not the case. We play the game ourselves so it's not just a 'cash cow' or anything like that - we're passionate about this game.

We'd appreciate if you do come across any issues you take the time to bring them up in the bugs forum if you can and are willing. We don't expect you to be 'testing' the game for us at all, but if you can afford the time to help us out of course we'd appreciate it. Cheers.

Neil,

I think your response is brilliant.

I'm sure SI appreciates our(FM users/players) feedback for the game and we appreciate it too knowing that there is an active community behind the game to share & care about the players. Just compare the SI forum against the "dead" Champ. Man. forum. Kudos to the SI for forum management.

The thing is I personally don't know why there is a new bug(s) in each new FM release. My question is why does the "Spanish YC bug is in FM 11 while in the first place its not in FM 10.3 . Did SI rewrite the whole code for FM 11 and got it wrong resulted in bad company management or it is a single SI employers mistake ? or its is beta testers mistake to miss out on massive game breaking bug? I'm aware that sometimes beta testers are not fully committed on testing and reporting bugs in gaming world but it is the companies issue. As a player who pays money to buy the game, I don't want to wait until SI releases the next patch to fully enjoy the game.

As an consumer we want some answers for the question

- Why there is new bug(s) in each new FM releases while in previous FM the game seems fine on that particular bug issue(feature)?

- Each time SI produces new FM, didn't they take examples from previous version of FM which worked fine?

- Why do SI keep tinkering features that worked well in previous game and make it worse? If transfers works well in FM10 why SI still wants to change it?

I hope someone directly or indirectly involved with SI will answer this questions.

Thank you.

[JRD7a]

Who cares about the gameplay?

Not me, because now I can see Silva doing stepovers and cahill punching the corner flag, which as FM fans, is surely all we could of ever asked for.

I think we need another "Miles on youtube" video, talking about all the great new features in 11, and how they most definitely don't work.

Instead of the "for the first time ever......." sales pitches we get, maybe something a little more honest, like;

"for the fifth consecutive version, we still haven't done anything about AI purchasiing of players"

or in 2018

"Agents have been in the game since FM11, and they're still as repetetive and non functional as always"

Just a little bit of honesty in the marketing would be refreshing.

Oh, for all those that blame the testers, riddle me this, I've heard Miles talk about having the game on his laptop at various stages of gamebuild, do you honestly think that the people that make this game, don't play it?

Of course they do, Miles would have known full well that you could buy Bale for 6 million at the end of season one, or balotelli for 5 million as soon as he got his arse in his hands over some fairly innocuos manager action or other. Miles would have tried selling players and found it just as ridiculous as us.

At the end of the day (to use football manager speak), if you release a product with your name on it, then that is where the buck stops. If you're basically using strangers and accepting there feedback without investigation, then we seem to be reaping the laziness that SIGA are sowing.

[Indran1412]

Oh, for all those that blame the testers, riddle me this, I've heard Miles talk about having the game on his laptop at various stages of gamebuild, do you honestly think that the people that make this game, don't play it?

Of course they do, Miles would have known full well that you could buy Bale for 6 million at the end of season one, or balotelli for 5 million as soon as he got his arse in his hands over some fairly innocuos manager action or other. Miles would have tried selling players and found it just as ridiculous as us.

If you are saying that SI developers(could be Miles) tested it in their latops in various stages of gamebuild, wouldn't they have found about "unnatural transfers";-

If they found about it, then what are their counter measures for that. Do they really think just release the game now, we can fix it later by patch. Then congrats SI, there's already 1 patch and 1 hotfix released and transfer are still like the same s*h*i*t as before. Now we need to wait for the 2nd patch to come out. Oh Well.... Same old tactics by SI again. Remember FM 09, 10...?

If they haven't found about it, then its the developers mistake, means complacent employee. Every year its getting worse. If anyone dare to criticize SI or their game in the forum, then they'll face the community members wrath who defending the game not knowing what they're missing.Common phrases are "Don't buy the game if you don't like it" and "Wait until 3rd patch".

Of course i'm not saying SI don't have to change anything that's in the previous game. Just change features that needs improvisation like Press conference and "ridiculous wage requests by hot prospect(long term saves)".Why they tweak the transfer settings or coding while it is working well.

Now the waiting game begins until the next patch while the game I spent so much money on is gathering dust on my shelf.

Kudos SI.

[kkev]

do the beta testers get paid for the work they do? if so then they deserve some of the blame - if not, then the blame has to be laid at si's door. they can't expect to get paid and make a profit off a game while getting free labour to do all the hard work for them.

if si were producing fm for the love of the game, then it would be fair enough that we are expected to pay £30 + for the privilige of being their testers, but they get well paid and as such are meant to be professionals, so there is no excuse for the number of bugs that games are released with.

[philly_flyer10]

Ive said it in other games, the amount of unmissable bugs in the release day game in unforgivable.

I also too believe the testers just want to play rather than report bugs, either that or no one is listening to them.

SI need to overhaul either the testers or the reporting process.

[stevio11]

Too many yellow and red cards for me. I have my tackling and closing down set as default and have knocked up over 32 yellow cards and 3 red cards with Liverpool in half a season but I have to ask the question.

Have the refs been set to be very strict as it happens with most refs.

[Tubey84]

do the beta testers get paid for the work they do? if so then they deserve some of the blame - if not, then the blame has to be laid at si's door.

Whether they're paid or not is immaterial; once they agree to test a Beta version of the game for the sole purpose of seeking out game errors, then it logically follows that they should be looking for evidence of game errors. If they're not doing so, then it's clearly a Beta tester fail.

If SI were to employ a team the size that could Beta test the game on minimum wage, it'd be a massive drain on resources. It's just not practical. SI isn't actually a massive company in relative terms so they do what they do well to get this game out on an annual basis, but their release strategy definitely needs reconsidering.