FM2011 Training Masterclass

[mantralux]

Introduction

This article will go through the training module in Football Manager 2011, how it works, what all the sliders do and how to utilise them properly. All info presented in this article is factual, confirmed by the developers either through personal messages or through the official SI forum. Any speculative information will be noted as such.

The original article can be found here; http://bit.ly/cIsq01

Training Categories

There are 9 different training categories. Two of them are fitness related, two of them are goalkeeping related, and the other 5 are general training. All categories affect visible player attributes only, and you can read more about what player attributes do and how they interact with each other in the Player Attributes Explained article.

The first important thing to know, is that all affected attributes in a training category have an equal chance of increasing. As an example; the strength training category affects natural fitness, stamina, strength and work rate – but none of the attributes have higher priority than the others, they all have an equal chance of increasing if you’re training the strength category.

Lets go through the training categories one by one:

Strength (physio training)

This category affects 4 different attributes; Natural Fitness, Stamina, Strength and Work Rate. Especially useful category if your players lose condition quickly in matches, and is a good category for pre-season training (see the Pre-Season section for more info).

Aerobic (physio training)

This category affects 5 different attributes; Acceleration, Agility, Balance, Jumping and Pace. Mainly for improving the athleticism of your player, it will make him faster, more agile and steadier on his feet. Often used in conjunction with the Strength category to increase a players overall physical presence.

GK – Shot Stopping (goalkeeper training)

This category affects 4 different attributes (2 of them goalkeeper specific); Reflexes, One on Ones, Composure and Concentration. This category trains the goalkeepers mental abilities, useful if your keeper makes poor judgements and buckle under pressure.

GK – Handling (goalkeeper training)

This category affects 4 different attributes (all of them goalkeeper specific); Aerial Ability, Kicking, Handling and Throwing. This category trains the goalkeepers physical and technical attributes, useful if your keeper has accuracy issues. Aerial Ability is the goalkeeper equivalent of Jumping, deciding how high the goalkeeper can reach.

Tactics (general and goalkeeper training)

This category affects the most amount of attributes (8), as it also trains goalkeeper attributes if applied to one; Anticipation, Decisions, Positioning, Off The Ball, Teamwork, Command of Area (GK), Communication (GK) and Rushing Out (GK). Being the category that affects the most amount of prime attributes (2), it’s the most important one, especially for younger players. It teaches them to read the game, how to move and how to make good decisions. If a goalkeeper is training this category, it’s an extension of his mental goalkeeping training, making him interact better with his team and make better goalkeeping decisions.

Ball Control (general training)

This category affects 5 different attributes; Dribbling, First Touch, Technique, Flair and Heading. All are technical or accuracy attributes except for Flair, which is an attribute that controls the unpredictability of a player. This category is useful if you feel your players repertoire is limited, and/or if you feel the player needs to control the ball better, as indicated by the category name.

Defending (general training)

This category affects 3 different attributes; Tackling, Marking and Concentration. A fairly straightforward category, useful for all defensive minded players to increase their defensive precision.

Attacking (general training)

This category affects 3 different attributes; Passing, Creativity and Crossing. Not as simple as the previous category though, as this one contains the prime attribute Creativity, which essentially controls how many options a player has to choose between, together with Technique and Flair. Useful for all players on the pitch, but obviously most useful for attack-minded players.

Shooting

Lastly, this category affects 3 attributes; Finishing, Long Shots and Composure. Pretty self-explanatory, this category is useful for all players expected to provide end product, and will increase both a player’s accuracy in front of goal and how well he will make a decision under pressure.

As previously mentioned, ALL attributes in a category have an equal chance of being increased, and this is true regardless of how many attributes are in a category.

Training Score (Advanced)

So now that we know what the categories do, it’s time to understand how this is all calculated to result in an increase for one or more attributes. Simply explained; a training score is calculated in every training category, and then that score is used to decide whether or not attributes are increased or not.

This training score is calculated from three different factors;

• Category Workload – how high the slider for the category is set.

• Coach Workload – light, average, heavy or none.

• Coach Ratings – the amount of quality (stars) the coaches have for the category.

When this score has been calculated, it’s put up against player happiness, hidden mental attributes and the current attribute levels, and then decides if the training has been a success, and if so, at what rate. Higher value attributes are harder to train, and player morale affects the training performance. The final result is simply that one or more attributes are increased, or not.

The higher the training score is, the bigger the chance that one or more attributes will be increased.

The Category Workload Sliders

There has been much speculation about the mystery of the sliders since they were introduced in Football Manager. Several theories exist, but there really is no mystery to them: there aren’t any trigger limits, the increase is purely linear, forcing you to find the sweet spot on your own. The labelling (medium, high, intensive, etc) is only there for visual feedback.

Every notch increases the final training score (the chance of a player improving an attribute). In order to have a realistic chance of one or more attributes to increase, a minimum level of ‘medium’ is recommended for the slider connected to the category in which the attributes are tied to. Even though a player could still increase an attribute at the lowest possible slider setting, the training score is so low at that level that the chance is almost non-existant.

Keep in mind though, that the sliders are only one part of the equation that forms the training score. Coach workload and quality (stars) are almost, if not equally, as important.

Also keep in mind that the higher the overall workload, the bigger risk of injury and player unhappiness.

Coaches & Workload

When it comes to coaches, it’s simple really; the more stars, the better.

The coach workload decides the speed of the attribute increases. ‘Light’ will get you results faster, ‘medium’ slower, ‘heavy’ slowest and ‘-’ none at all. It doesn’t affect the level of increase (how much), just the rate (speed).

If you have a 5-star coach and a 1-star coach training the same category, the training won’t be affected by the low level coach. The rating is all that matters, it’s the overall indicator of how well the category is being trained. Therefor, it’s safe to sign high level coaches for all 9 categories, and then use low level (cheap) coaches to fill out the category workloads to ‘light’.

With that in mind, the best long term plan is to prioritise star rating over workload.

Coach Attributes

Similar to player attributes, coach attributes consists of background, prime and secondary attributes, but they have a different meaning when dealing with coaches.

Background Attributes

There are two types of background attributes. The first type (coaching) influences the training score for individual players. They are Man Management and Working With Youngsters. They are the equivalent of each other, so the former is preferred for first team or regular coaches, while the latter is preferred for youth coaches.

The second type of background attribute (mental) controls things like how well the coach settles at the club and his tactical knowledge. This also includes his judging abilities, so the mental background attributes are most important when choosing an assistant manager.

None of the background attributes have an influence on the star rating of the coach.

Prime Attributes

Prime attributes are used for every training category when calculating quality level (stars). They are Determination, Level of Discipline and Motivating. If these three attributes are high enough, the coach is generally good at most of the training categories, regardless of his secondary attributes. Prime attributes can make up at least 50% of the maximum star rating for all categories.

Secondary Attributes

Secondary attributes only affects specific training categories. Here’s how secondary coach attributes affect specific training categories, and how much:

• Attacking – 43% attacking and 24% shooting

• Defending – 43% defending

• Fitness – 62% strength and 62% aerobic

• Goalkeepers – 43% GK (shot stopping) and 43% GK (handling)

• Mental – 24% ball control

• Tactical – 43% tactics, 19% defending and 24% attacking

• Technical – 43% ball control and 43% shooting

With all this information we can now make some pretty good assumptions on how to select and appoint coaches. High background (coaching) attributes will increase the training score, and high background (mental) attributes are best for assistant managers. High prime attributes are preferred in all cases, and then the secondary attributes are used for specific categories.

Custom Schedules

The training has been overhauled in FM2011, and there are now more default schedules instead of just General and Goalkeepers. These default schedules are only there to make training easier for those who don’t wish to travel deeper into the training module, but in order to maximise your players potential you need to create custom schedules.

There are different approaches here. Some create broad schedules, similar to the default ones, but with altered category sliders. Some make schedules for every position, and some even make schedules for every individual player.

Making schedules for every single player isn’t really necessary in FM2011, as we now have individual focus on top of the general training. More about that in the next section.

In my opinion, the best approach is to make custom schedules for every base position + team specific + pre-season. So in my case, first I make schedules for goalkeepers, central defenders, full/wing backs, defensive midfielders, attacking midfielders, wingers/wide forwards and strikers. I then create a ‘prime’ schedule, a team-specific schedule in which the main focus of my team is trained. Maybe my team has an attacking personality, so the focus would be on that. Lastly I have a pre-season schedule for increasing player fitness levels when they come back from their season break.

Individual Focus & Set Pieces

New for FM2011 is that you can set individual training focus for all players. This is helpful if you want to be more specific than the training categories allow you to be.

It allows you to focus and spot train one of 7 physical (all except natural fitness), 3 mental or 13 technical (all except tackling for some reason) attributes – the most powerful ones being the prime attribute Technique and the important Composure attribute that controls how well a player performs under pressure.

The other important aspect here is that in earlier FM versions, you had a specific Set Pieces training category. With that being replaced by a goalkeeping category, you have to use individual focus to train set piece attributes that aren’t affected by regular training categories; Free Kick Taking, Penalty Taking, Long Throws and Corners.

Match Preparation

Also new for FM2011 is the match preparation panel, giving you a visual indicator as to how comfortable your team feels with your tactic. It also has a temporary effect on specific matches, depending on the special focus area you’ve chosen.

First important thing to understand is that the tactic/workload slider and the special focus areas do NOT impact one another directly, other than special focus areas taking time from all other training activities (including familiarity rate). A higher workload will NOT increase the effects of the special focus areas, and none of the special focus areas will have an effect on the tactic familiarity levels.

Workload Slider

Having this slider at the highest setting (Very High) will not make your players unhappy with the level of training. It will just take away more time from normal training schedules. It’s safe to push this up all the way when learning new tactics, as a short-term solution.

As soon as the familiarity levels reach fluid for all tactics trained, lower the workload slider to Low or Very Low to just maintain the levels, shifting more power to your regular training schedules in the process. The match preparation workload slider cuts into regular training time, so if you leave the slider on Average/High/Very High, training scores will be affected.

Familiarity Levels

As these increase, your players will perform the tactical instructions better.

Always aim to have all bars on fluid. Whenever you alter your tactics, even the smallest of changes will make the game re-calculate the familiarity levels of your team. This is also true in a match – using touchline shouts or altering tactics mid-game could have a negative effect on the team, as they’re not as familiar with the “new” tactic.

Special Focus Areas

These selections are made to gain temporary benefits on a match-to-match basis. They will not stack up (except Team Blend), and should be viewed only as a boost for the next match. If you have a tough game coming up, you might want to focus on defensive positioning, and so on.

Worth noting is that if you have one of the special focuses selected, the familiarity levels of the tactic(s) will have a slower increase. So if you want your team to learn the tactic(s) as fast as possible, have no special focus selected.

The way these focus areas translate into the match engine, is to give temporary boosts to related attributes. The boost is only given if the player is familiar enough with the tactic used, so that’s how familiarity levels and special focus areas tie in together.

Team Blend

This is the only focus that stacks up, and the only focus that is not active during a match. Instead, it’s active in between matches. Having Team Blend set as the default special focus, and then focusing on a specific area one day before a match will give you double the benefits. What Team Blend does is to increase player relationships, gelling them together, which increases morale and performances.

Tutoring & Player Preferred Moves (PPM’s)

When you go to a Player Profile – Positions, you’ll see a list called Preferred Moves. There are two ways to have a player learn a PPM. First one is to have a private chat with him, telling him specifically what PPM you think he should learn. The second one is to have a senior player (that has the PPM you want your player to learn) tutor him, hoping that the player picks up the specific PPM.

In order to tutor the player he needs to be young, and age plays a big part in PPM’s. The older the player is, the more reluctant he will be to learn new tricks.

Overall Workload

In the Player Profile – Training panel, you will see overall workload percentages. These will tell you how much the player is focusing on the different aspects of training.

Every time you add a purpose-built training like PPM’s, new position or individual training focus, it takes a piece out of the Scheduled Training. The match preparation also cuts into this share. The ideal situation is to have at least 70% dedicated to scheduled training, and the rest dedicated to individual focus and match preparation.

Training Tips & Tricks

Using all the information we’ve reviewed in this article, here are some suggestions on how to use training efficiently. Just to be clear, this entire section is speculative and just my personal opinion based on the facts presented earlier in the article.

Pre-Season

Use a specific training schedule, focusing mostly on tactics, strength and aerobics to have players work up their fitness and key mental attributes after the summer break. Have your main tactic loaded as the only tactic in the match preparation screen, and have the workload slider set to High. Have the Team Blend special focus selected all the way through pre-season.

As soon as the fitness information (Player Profile – Attributes) says a player is either match fit or in superb condition, he does not need pre-season training anymore, but I usually keep all players on pre-season training until 2 weeks before the season starts, just to get the benefit of the mental attribute increases.

Set Pieces

Assign individual training focus Free Kicks, Penalties, Long Throws and Corners for your corresponding set piece takers. There is no set piece training category in FM2011, so all set piece attributes has to be increased through individual focus.

Short-Term Training

If you want to quickly raise a specific player attribute, first find the training category in which the attribute is learned. Then check to see if the attribute can be learned through individual focus. Here is the list of what attributes are trained by what category/focus;

Corners

– individual focus Corners

Crossing

– training category Attacking

Dribbling

– training category Ball Control / individual focus Dribbling

Finishing

– training category Shooting / individual focus Finishing

First Touch

– training category Ball Control / individual focus First Touch

Free Kick Taking

– individual focus Free Kicks

Heading

– training category Ball Control / individual focus Heading

Long Shots

– training category Shooting / individual focus Long Shots

Long Throws

– individual focus Long Throws

Marking

– training category Defending / individual focus Marking

Passing

– training category Attacking / individual focus Passing

Penalty Taking

– individual focus Penalties

Tackling

– training category Defending

Technique

– training category Ball Control / individual focus Technique

Anticipation

– training category Tactics

Composure

– training category Shooting / individual focus Composure

Concentration

– training category Defending

Decisions

– training category Tactics

Flair

– training category Ball Control

Off The Ball

– training category Tactics / individual focus Off The Ball

Positioning

– training category Tactics / individual focus Positioning

Teamwork

– training category Tactics

Work Rate

– training category Strength

Acceleration

– training category Aerobic / individual focus Quickness

Agility

– training category Aerobic / individual focus Agility

Balance

– training category Aerobic / individual focus Balance

Jumping

– training category Aerobic / individual focus Jumping

Natural Fitness

– training category Strength

Pace

– training category Aerobic / individual focus Quickness

Stamina

– training category Strength / individual focus Stamina

Strength

– training category Strength / individual focus Strength

The attributes that has both a training category and an individual focus assigned to them will have a higher rate and chance of increasing. The attributes that you can’t increase through training are Aggression, Bravery, Creativity, Determination and Influence – all mental attributes that are increased through other means (first team action, player growth, etc).

So in order to increase a specific attribute as quickly as possible, create a custom training schedule with the corresponding category on Intensive (all the way up), then have the player set on individual focus for the intended attribute. Remove all positional and preferred moves training, and keep the match preparation training as low as possible. Make sure your coach(es) have an ok star rating in the category you’re training, that the category workload is ‘light’ (workload is more important that star rating in short term training), and that the player is happy (high morale). These factors will give you the highest possible training score, and therefor the highest chance that an attribute will be raised.

Long-Term Training

The long-term training is used for creating a team personality and instill a recognisable character to your team. Do you want to be known as a possession-based team? Masters of the defence? With long-term training you will build a specific set of attributes to shape the behaviour of the team.

Using the above list for attribute/training category/individual focus, we can build a custom training schedule that I like to call a ‘prime’ schedule. It should be balanced enough that almost all outfield players should be able to take part in it, to be shaped into your team’s personality and philosophy. But also specifically focused on 1-3 training categories.

Here are some prime schedule examples;

Attacking/Possession (Arsenal, Barcelona, etc) – Tactics and Attacking

Defensive/Counter (Real Madrid, Inter, etc) – Tactics, Defending and Shooting

Muscle/Control (Chelsea, etc) – Strength, Ball Control and Tactics

And so on. The prime schedule should be used mainly for newcomers to the club, so that they blend in well with the rest of the squad, giving them similar attributes. Make sure that your main tactic(s) reflect the training focus as well, it’s pointless having an attacking prime schedule if your main tactic is a defensive one.

Downloads

Coming soon…

[Ernest166]

great post mate,enjoyed reading it.

[Bubisch]

Hope the "Coming soon" Doesn't take too long =D

[S2008]

This was really informative- I think this deserves to be made a sticky

[Ernest166]

If there would be a great training it would be even better thread

[mantralux]

If there would be a great training it would be even better thread

First theory, then praxis.

[Marsupian]

I just can't understand how you can talk about training and thus player development without talking about fitness and match practice. Players gain attributes by being match fit, playing (high reputation) matches and by having a good personality. When a young player is fit, plays enough high reputation matches and has a good personality his attributes will skyrocket regardless of how you train him. The training only makes certain attributes more hungry for PA (potential ability) and other attributes less hungry. This means that through training you can direct the flow of PA of a developing player towards the right attributes. If a player is not developing training will have a very limited effect and there will only be small changes in attributes due to some attributes being very hungry and others being very "meh, don't need it" which then generates a small flow of CA going from less trained attributes to the very hungry attributes. Another factor you have to take into account when training is age. For young players physical attributes are naturally very hungry and will see the most growth while mental stats are naturally less hungry and will take more time to grow. Old players will have their physical attributes start shedding away CA which will go towards his mental attributes.

So in short make sure your developing players stay match fit, get tutored when having a bad personality and play as many high reputation matches as possible. Then when is getting better you can direct the flow of PA towards the attributes you want to improve. Then when a player is very old you can put him on a more intense physical schedule to try and combat his natural decline. Players in the middle of their career usually don't see a lot of attribute changes but due to the gentle flow generated by his training schedule you can cause subtle changes.

I also don't think putting all your players into one training schedule to create a team "personality" has any benefits at all. If you have players with very different roles in you team why should you put them on the same schedule. Why should my striker ever gain points for his marking attribute? There is nothing wrong with giving some attributes more importance because they help your style of play but that doesn't mean my DC's must start training on shooting.

btw. Natural fitness doesn't improve at all as far as I know. The only time I have ever heard about natural fitness changing at all was when a player was injured for a very very long time and his natural fitness went down by one or two points.

[Stejo]

Distributing (and redistributing) CA is one thing. Gaining or losing it, is another. Training only affects distribution anyway and not gain, and this is exactly what the OP discusses, so what is it exactly that you can't understand?

[mantralux]

I just can't understand how you can talk about training and thus player development without talking about fitness and match practice.

The answer is simple, I wanted to focus solely on the training module, not so much general player development. Which is why I don't mention those things, and also why I don't go into detail on PA, or the 5 mental attributes that can't be trained. All that has to do with player development, and maybe the article will be expanded in the future to include development as well. =)

I also don't think putting all your players into one training schedule to create a team "personality" has any benefits at all. If you have players with very different roles in you team why should you put them on the same schedule.

I never said you should put all your players in the prime training schedule. I said that a prime schedule contains the personality of your team, good for newcomers to the team, or players you're not sure about where to place. It's an introductory long term schedule to mould players to what you want them to be, to fit your overall philosophy and tactical approach.

But as stated, it's just an opinion, not fact.

There is nothing wrong with giving some attributes more importance because they help your style of play but that doesn't mean my DC's must start training on shooting.

If your central defenders are training the Shooting category, that means that they aren't only training finishing and long shots...but also composure, which is an important attribute for all positions on the pitch.

btw. Natural fitness doesn't improve at all as far as I know. The only time I have ever heard about natural fitness changing at all was when a player was injured for a very very long time and his natural fitness went down by one or two points.

The Strength category trains Natural Fitness, so it definitely improves.

[Kazza]

Another great thread and a good read. Look forward to testing some of the above and following the inevitable ensuing debate

Where would you put Marsupian's views as they seem to fit into what you are trying to develop. They might sit as a pre-cursor to training and form a useful add-on that links into training?

Hopefully, when we get the forum clean up these threads will go into a specific section so as not to get lost in the mass of tactics etc.

I was also hoping that you will bring all the threads you are currently producing and refining into a handbook of sorts. Certainly for people like me, it would be a distinct advantage to be able to download the information and have it in one handy volume.

K

[mantralux]

Where would you put Marsupian's views as they seem to fit into what you are trying to develop. They might sit as a pre-cursor to training and form a useful add-on that links into training?

The views are very valid, and player development would be a factor alongside the training module. I just wanted to focus on the actual action of training first and foremost, so that's the only reason those things aren't included in the article.

I was also hoping that you will bring all the threads you are currently producing and refining into a handbook of sorts. Certainly for people like me, it would be a distinct advantage to be able to download the information and have it in one handy volume.

Might be a good idea, but so far I don't have nearly enough to form a guide. With that said, an article like this could easily be inserted in a larger guide covering other areas of FM. At the moment though I'm just writing as I go, trying not to rush things out. And also, there are many areas in FM where I'm still clueless. Writing these articles helps though, as I'm forced to research and fact check. =)

[Marsupian]

The answer is simple, I wanted to focus solely on the training module, not so much general player development. Which is why I don't mention those things, and also why I don't go into detail on PA, or the 5 mental attributes that can't be trained. All that has to do with player development, and maybe the article will be expanded in the future to include development as well. =)

Ok thats fine. It could be handy to quickly mention it somewhere tho because a lot of people don't get this and it has a big effect to how you set up your training schedules and creates a more realistic view on what to expect from training.

I never said you should put all your players in the prime training schedule. I said that a prime schedule contains the personality of your team, good for newcomers to the team, or players you're not sure about where to place. It's an introductory long term schedule to mould players to what you want them to be, to fit your overall philosophy and tactical approach.

But as stated, it's just an opinion, not fact.

Maybe it's easier to create schedules based on position in the team and what is expected of that position in your tactic and then add an extra focus to areas especially important to your tactic or squad personality.

If your central defenders are training the Shooting category, that means that they aren't only training finishing and long shots...but also composure, which is an important attribute for all positions on the pitch.

Thats totally true and composure is indeed very important for any position on the pitch but I use a little trick where I give defenders and defensive midfielder individual training on composure thus not having to train them in finishing and long shot so I disregarded composure in that comment.

The Strength category trains Natural Fitness, so it definitely improves.

If anyone has ever seen Natural Fitness improve please say so. Until I hear from someone who has seen it or see it for myself I will remain skeptical. There were posts in other threads about natural fitness (including Sfrasers post on training which ran 11 pages) and the general consensus is that it doesn't improve. If I'm wrong please tell me.

My responses are in red btw .

[mantralux]

If anyone has ever seen Natural Fitness improve please say so. Until I hear from someone who has seen it or see it for myself I will remain skeptical.

There can be factors that interfere with the final training score for the Natural Fitness attribute, but the fact is that all attributes in a category have an equal chance of being increased (according to Riz - training module dev), and Natural Fitness is trained by the Strength category. You can even see this if you go to the Attribute Development in the Player Profile - Training panel, and choose Strength in the dropdown list in the top right.

If Natural Fitness isn't increased ever, then it's surely a bug.

There were posts in other threads about natural fitness (including Sfrasers post on training which ran 11 pages) and the general consensus is that it doesn't improve.

I've said this before, and I do have respect for the amount of time SFraser puts into writing his articles....but the fact is that he's often wrong in his assumptions. He claimed that there are trigger points in the training sliders, which there aren't, he claimed that the Influence attribute actually influences other player decisions, which they don't. And so on.

If I'm wrong please tell me.

No no, you might very well be right. But as Natural Fitness is included in the Strength training category, the attribute SHOULD increase. If it doesn't, it must be a bug - or some other factor we don't now about yet.

Thats totally true and composure is indeed very important for any position on the pitch but I use a little trick where I give defenders and defensive midfielder individual training on composure thus not having to train them in finishing and long shot so I disregarded composure in that comment.

Yeah I do this too. =)

[Marsupian]

It wasn't only Sfraser who said this. It just happened in his thread and I mentioned it so you could check it out if you want to.

btw. I do believe that other attributes like influence and flair are not trainable but increase through random match events or general match practice and only with young players but I'm not 100% sure.

[mantralux]

I do believe that other attributes like influence and flair are not trainable but increase through random match events or general match practice and only with young players but I'm not 100% sure.

Oh yes, they do increase, not just through training. =)

[dreghorn2]

Oh yes, they do increase, not just through training. =)

Interesting.. how so?

Would really like to know this.

Excellent thread.

[mantralux]

Interesting.. how so?

Would really like to know this.

Excellent thread.

Those attributes are increased through player development outside the training module. Like Marsupian has said in the thread - first team action, fitness, morale...

I haven't started my research on it, so I wouldn't be able to say exactly what does what, but it seems as if every attribute can change, the question is what changes it.

[phnompenhandy]

Mantralux, this is another absolutely phenomenal article. Amongst your original insights, I wonder of you can begin by elucidating precisely how man management/working with youngsters affects the quality of assistant managing AND training, especially since you say they are invisible attributes behind the star ratings.

I'll also chip into the 'Natural Fitness' debate; I too am highly sceptical and don't recall any examples of it increasing. I'll add a linguistic point too - if it is natural fitness, how can it be changed by training? It wouldn't be natural! It's a bit like these posters who don't understand the concept of potential when complaining that PA should be dynamic. If you have a hotline to Riz, maybe you could pin him down on this.

Anyway, keep up the brilliant work. Hopefully us lot will keep you so busy you won't have time to fill your blog with flippin' Arsenal analyses!!!

[Os]

Mantralux, this is another absolutely phenomenal article. Amongst your original insights, I wonder of you can begin by elucidating precisely how man management/working with youngsters affects the quality of assistant managing AND training, especially since you say they are invisible attributes behind the star ratings.

I'll also chip into the 'Natural Fitness' debate; I too am highly sceptical and don't recall any examples of it increasing. I'll add a linguistic point too - if it is natural fitness, how can it be changed by training? It wouldn't be natural! It's a bit like these posters who don't understand the concept of potential when complaining that PA should be dynamic. If you have a hotline to Riz, maybe you could pin him down on this.

Anyway, keep up the brilliant work. Hopefully us lot will keep you so busy you won't have time to fill your blog with flippin' Arsenal analyses!!!

I understand you defining natural Fitness as you have, however i think the definition within the game is more to do with how quickly a player recovers from matches and injuries. I feel that if you build up the other catergories within the strength and aerobic modules then natural fitness can be improved.

[mantralux]

Mantralux, this is another absolutely phenomenal article. Amongst your original insights, I wonder of you can begin by elucidating precisely how man management/working with youngsters affects the quality of assistant managing AND training, especially since you say they are invisible attributes behind the star ratings.

Not behind the star ratings - they are fully controlled by the visible attributes (prime + secondary).

Man Management/Working With Youngsters background attributes are part of the equation when the training score is calculated. If a coach has a high value in one or both of those attributes, the coach will be able to work better with the player - the training score (chance of something happening) is increased.

I haven't researched the assistant manager part fully yet, but my speculation is that Man Management/Working With Youngsters only affect the training score, and has no impact on whether or not someone is a good assistant man or not. I think Tactical Knowledge and the judging attributes are the only really important ones, as the main usage for an assistant manager is tactical feedback and player evaluation (backroom advice).

I'll also chip into the 'Natural Fitness' debate; I too am highly sceptical and don't recall any examples of it increasing. I'll add a linguistic point too - if it is natural fitness, how can it be changed by training? It wouldn't be natural! It's a bit like these posters who don't understand the concept of potential when complaining that PA should be dynamic. If you have a hotline to Riz, maybe you could pin him down on this.

I wouldn't know how SI was thinking, all I know is that Natural Fitness is supposed to be trained by the Strength category. If it never increases, it's a bug, as it's listed in the game as an attribute affected by the training category Strength.

My thought on Natural Fitness is that it's a description for how much of an athlete a player is. And I suspect it ties in with the hidden attribute Injury Proneness, just like height ties in with Jumping. That's all speculation though, I haven't gone deeper into the hidden attributes yet.

[Asim]

nice work mantralux.

thanks for the effort,some good information there.

[ProZone]

mantralux,

Top quality OP! A huge amount of information in there which is presented very nicely.

There is however one area which is conspicuous by its absence; the Training Level graph!

Could you offer your opinions on it and how it should be interpreted, and used, for optimising player development through training.

EDIT: Apologies to NakS who posted an identical question, in much more detail, moments before I did!

[shakeable]

Excellent guide. Just have one question. What about the training facilities? Do they just add to the training score?

[mantralux]

Looking into the training graph over the next couple of days, but feel free to post both theories and facts!

What about the training facilities? Do they just add to the training score?

First, one number is calculated (A), using category workload, coach workload and coach ratings (stars). This number (A) is now put to the side while another number is calculated (B), based on the player's hidden attributes, current attribute levels, happiness, fitness, training facilities, and so on.

Now the two numbers, A and B, are put up against each other to decide whether something has been successful or not.

Simple analogy: to decide if an action is successful, we roll a regular 6-sided dice. You are given a range, lets say 1-5, based on the situation you're in. This is number A. You now roll the dice to see if you're successful, the dice number being B. If you roll a number between 1-5, it was a success. If you roll a 6, it was not.

Obviously it's much more complicated than that, but that's the basic framework for success rate in games, dating back to Dungeons and Dragons in the 70's.

[Jessica Jung]

From your article I am sure you will make a top quality training schedule, so I highly anticipate the Downloads section to have a training schedule soon.

[heathxxx]

This has the makings of another superb training thread.

Always of interest to me, because although I've always been comfortable with the tactical modules, the training module has always been something I've swept under the rug, so to speak

I think the theory and the discussion that follows, is far more important than just having schedules available for download. For one, someone who just downloads schedules, might have something decent to work with, but they won't understand much about why it works, or doesn't as the case may be, just as when someone downloads a tactic.

Perhaps the aim of threads like these, should be to eventually produce something that is pretty clear and concise in "layman's" terms, educating users (of any potential download), of the basics they need to observe.

All good though

[mantralux]

Just an update on Natural Fitness:

I just went on holiday for a year in a test save. It had all players on one training schedule, and the schedule only had the Strength category on full blast. No match preparation and no individual focus.

After a year, most of the attributes in the Strength category had improved for all players.....except Natural Fitness, just as people pointed out. So obviously it's a bug somewhere, as Natural Fitness is included in the Strength category, and should therefor increase if trained. Otherwise it should not be in the category to start with.

[stonini90]

you a re great, thanks for your effort.

[higgins]

Just an update on Natural Fitness:

I just went on holiday for a year in a test save. It had all players on one training schedule, and the schedule only had the Strength category on full blast. No match preparation and no individual focus.

After a year, most of the attributes in the Strength category had improved for all players.....except Natural Fitness, just as people pointed out. So obviously it's a bug somewhere, as Natural Fitness is included in the Strength category, and should therefor increase if trained. Otherwise it should not be in the category to start with.

Good thread, but I was thinking about natural fitness, how could a thing that is "natural" be trained?

[mantralux]

Good thread, but I was thinking about natural fitness, how could a thing that is "natural" be trained?

Here is the description from the manual:

"How fit a player is as standard – his base level of fitness. It affects how many games he is likely to be able to perform to peak physical fitness in before becoming noticeably tired and susceptible to injury."

Now, if the attribute is truly 'natural' fitness, one could argue that this attribute is what would be called genetic build - a player born with good genetics. Then this attribute would never change. If this was the case, the attribute should be hidden instead of visible.

But...according to the description, Natural Fitness has to do with tiredness....and this can easily be trained by preventive physio training.

If it can't be trained, it should be removed from the Strength category, and even from the attributes list. If it can be trained, there is a bug in the game preventing it increase.

[higgins]

I see what you mean, I think it can't be trained, stamina can be improved by training, not natural fitness that is something related to genetics, as you said.

[ZdlR]

It's at this point that an SI dev should step in and clear this up once and for all. I live in hope.

[mantralux]

It's at this point that an SI dev should step in and clear this up once and for all. I live in hope.

[higgins]

Clear this up?

Uhmm....I don't think so, we wouldn't have anything to talk about then.....

[RobinGoodey]

Mantra - just going back to coaches: Obviously we want one with good DDM and also their specific training category rating to be high. So we get 9 coaches, one for each category - and 9 high star ratings. Then you also mention the man management / working with youngsters score is important. So from that, surely it would then be sensible to get two more coaches, one with high man management, one with great working with youngsters, and put them on ALL 9 coaching areas - so each area has a coach that is good for the seniors and one for the juniors - plus a light workload. This surely would then give the best training score? (at least from the coach aspect)

[mantralux]

Mantra - just going back to coaches: Obviously we want one with good DDM and also their specific training category rating to be high. So we get 9 coaches, one for each category - and 9 high star ratings. Then you also mention the man management / working with youngsters score is important. So from that, surely it would then be sensible to get two more coaches, one with high man management, one with great working with youngsters, and put them on ALL 9 coaching areas - so each area has a coach that is good for the seniors and one for the juniors - plus a light workload. This surely would then give the best training score? (at least from the coach aspect)

That's a very interesting approach, I will have to research it further. It does seem logical, even realistic (specialised coaches and then allround coaches helping out where needed), but the training score might take a hit - maybe it reacts to there being coaches in every category with a workload of 7 (not counting GK) categories.

[phnompenhandy]

Robin, if you have scope for enough coaches, you can do like this: make sure you're assman has the good man-man/youth skills and put him on all schedules. Not only will this bring in whatever benefit that attribute has, but he can also act as the guy who puts out the cones and bibs - i.e. ensure all schedule workloads are light. That way, if you have one high-star coach for each category, you'll maximise your training effectiveness.

[ProZone]

Here is the description from the manual:

"How fit a player is as standard – his base level of fitness. It affects how many games he is likely to be able to perform to peak physical fitness in before becoming noticeably tired and susceptible to injury."

Now, if the attribute is truly 'natural' fitness, one could argue that this attribute is what would be called genetic build - a player born with good genetics. Then this attribute would never change. If this was the case, the attribute should be hidden instead of visible.

But...according to the description, Natural Fitness has to do with tiredness....and this can easily be trained by preventive physio training.

If it can't be trained, it should be removed from the Strength category, and even from the attributes list. If it can be trained, there is a bug in the game preventing it increase.

Has this issue been raised with SI as a bug then?

[Da_Funk]

Hey ProZone did you notice that GK has Heading in Individual Training? Any thoughts about it?

[ProZone]

No, I hadn't noticed that, but I can see a case for why it is.

It is an attribute that I would imagine to combine well with Rushing Out for the Sweeper Keeper role. We see Pepe Reina come outsde his area to intercept through balls and head them away to safety for Liverpool on a fairly regular basis I'd say, just to demonstrate my point with an example.

What I'd also say is that SI seem to have put a lot of thought into the Individual Training attributes, from what I have read anyway. I was looking at why Tackling was omitted for outfield players a while back and SI gave a thorough explanation as to why it wasn't, demonstrating that a lot of consideration has been given to this new feature of the game. The thread I read was somewhere in the Bugs Forum and I'll try to dig it out again when I have the chance and add a link to this post.

[Da_Funk]

No, I hadn't noticed that, but I can see a case for why it is.

It is an attribute that I would imagine to combine well with Rushing Out for the Sweeper Keeper role. We see Pepe Reina come outsde his area to intercept through balls and head them away to safety for Liverpool on a fairly regular basis I'd say, just to demonstrate my point with an example.

.

but why can't I see the Heading attribute in GK profile then? It shouldn't be hidden.

[ProZone]

Good point. I don't know and I suggest you head over to the bugs forum and ask there. It seems nonsensical to me.

[Da_Funk]

Good point. I don't know and I suggest you head over to the bugs forum and ask there. It seems nonsensical to me.

yep, same goes for Penalty Saving. when I can I post there.

[mantralux]

Has this issue been raised with SI as a bug then?

It's being looked at, yes.

[Da_Funk]

It's being looked at, yes.

Ok, my fault sorry.

[N33]

Great Read!

[jim morrow]

It's badly that nobody reply to Naks question cause i'm asking the same on when reading your post.....

Your training explanation can be useful only for players of top clubs....kind of players who can be trained in each category without trouble...But what's happen for player from lower league ??? from player

who can train maximum one, two or three categorie in the same time only ????? how can you know if the player is arrived or not to his maximum potential in each attribute ???

there is no way to know that in you schedule. Perhaps at one time in your season, you will train a player in a heavy load in a category who he will never increase !!! so you loose your time to train a player to a specific category for nothing....

and that's why, post from Mr Naks is interesting cause there is the way to know how many a player can be trained...to resume, the player potential of training that can be "absorb" during one season...

(cause this potential change from season to season due to age, workrate increase or decrease etc...)

[ProZone]

Your training explanation can be useful only for players of top clubs....kind of players who can be trained in each category without trouble...But what's happen for player from lower league ??? from player

who can train maximum one, two or three categorie in the same time only ?????

I disagree jim. The mechanics of training remain the same regardless of which club you choose to manage. I do agree that the amount an individual player can be developed is less at a smaller club compared to a big club as 'development' is controlled by facilities, quality and no. of coaches etc. and not forgetting full-time or part-time contract status also. There is no limit on the number of categories that can be trained for a lower league club, it is all of them, just as for a Premier League club.

how can you know if the player is arrived or not to his maximum potential in each attribute ???

there is no way to know that in you schedule. Perhaps at one time in your season, you will train a player in a heavy load in a category who he will never increase !!! so you loose your time to train a player to a specific category for nothing....

You know this by looking at the Player Profile. For example, if he has 20 scores for Creativity, Passing and Crossing then you know he's reached his full potential in the Attacking category. Anything less than a 20 score for an attribute and there is room for development, providing that CA < PA.

I think what you're really getting at is that if a player has 20 scores for each attribute in a category then what is the amount of training (slider position) we need to give to that category to maintain those 20 scores without wasting workload by unnecessarily setting the slider too high. I'd like to know too! And you are right in thinking that this 'maintain' position will be dynamic throughout a player's career due to the influence of age, hidden attributes and may other factors.

[mantralux]

I think what you're really getting at is that if a player has 20 scores for each attribute in a category then what is the amount of training (slider position) we need to give to that category to maintain those 20 scores without wasting workload by unnecessarily setting the slider too high. I'd like to know too! And you are right in thinking that this 'maintain' position will be dynamic throughout a player's career due to the influence of age, hidden attributes and may other factors.

Yeah there is no universal notch on the slider to 'maintain' an attribute, you'll have to find the sweet spot for every single player.

[ProZone]

Yeah there is no universal notch on the slider to 'maintain' an attribute, you'll have to find the sweet spot for every single player.

Do you have a method or strategy for finding that?