clonerohin1

Tutoring - What's the Official SI take on this?

92 posts in this topic

I just think it's more realistic now.

On the previous game you could have players up to 25 being tutored by someone just 1 year older.

I even had 24 yr olds tutored by 24 yr olds.

The situation we have now whereby senior players, regardless of age, can only tutor youth players is far more realistic.

Giggs wouldn't tutor Bale, they might have a chat and trade advice but he certainly wouldn't take him under his wing.

Annoying for development, but players are normally developed before making the first team.

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[quote name='bigdanio']Giggs wouldn't tutor Bale, they might have a chat and trade advice but he certainly wouldn't take him under his wing.[/QUOTE]

Why wouldn't Wales's most-promising left-sided player want to be mentored from the best left-sided player Wales has ever seen, and one of the best left-sided players ever seen in the modern era?

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[quote name='bigdanio']
I even had 24 yr olds tutored by 24 yr olds.
[/QUOTE]

I remember limit for tutee in old FM is 23 yr olds. sounds strange to me. Maybe he was 23, you linked him to a tutor and then tutoring was in progress after birthday.

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[quote name='bigdanio']I just think it's more realistic now.

On the previous game you could have players up to 25 being tutored by someone just 1 year older.

I even had 24 yr olds tutored by 24 yr olds.

The situation we have now whereby senior players, regardless of age, can only tutor youth players is far more realistic.

Giggs wouldn't tutor Bale, they might have a chat and trade advice but he certainly wouldn't take him under his wing.

Annoying for development, but players are normally developed before making the first team.[/QUOTE]

What an example! :D

Not everyone's going ahead and buying Bale - Incidentally the hottest young talent in all of Europe right now!! How about the rest of the lot?

I wanna get a 33 yr old CAM with Continental reputation named Arnold Bruggink to tutor a 22 yr old Nationally reputed CAM called Tomas Horava. If the current system is right then why can't I do that?

Moreover, why wouldn't Bale want that opportunity?! I know Giggs is not lacking in reputation, and I'm sure noone can question his ability.

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Yeah, giving the manager a bit more info about each of the hidden stats could be useful, even it is "vagueish".

Let's say [I]Poor[/I] professionalism if it's 1-7, [I]Decent[/I] if it's 8-13 and [I]Good[/I] if it's 14-20.

At least let us know this after he spends more than a year in our squad. Leave scout reports as is. Scouts make mistakes, managers buy wrong players all the time, but don't keep a player a mystery to me if I coached him for several seasons...

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[quote name='Sarmatian']Yeah, giving the manager a bit more info about each of the hidden stats could be useful, even it is "vagueish".

Let's say [I]Poor[/I] professionalism if it's 1-7, [I]Decent[/I] if it's 8-13 and [I]Good[/I] if it's 14-20.

At least let us know this after he spends more than a year in our squad. Leave scout reports as is. Scouts make mistakes, managers buy wrong players all the time, but don't keep a player a mystery to me if I coached him for several seasons...[/QUOTE]

If you've coached him for several seasons, you should know him well enough for game terms, anyway. Without the visual aids. If you need such, take Notes...

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[quote name='SSGTroyer']If you've coached him for several seasons, you should know him well enough for game terms, anyway. Without the visual aids. If you need such, take Notes...[/QUOTE]

Yes, lets hide all the stats on players .. that way you can sit and look at the games, and write down notes on whether your winger is "sort-of fast" or "really really fast" .. and whether his skills at corners "suck" or "totally rocks". How would we ever know if a players has 14 or 15 in Pace?? .. or if his Composure is 5 or 7.

It is a game, not real life ... and since the hidden stats are pretty important, and you (often) have very little indication of them, it becomes a chore having to write notes for your 40+ players, while having to watch for any kind of signs during the game of what their stats MIGHT be. Some of us don't really find that enjoyable.

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[quote name='StormenDK']Yes, lets hide all the stats on players .. that way you can sit and look at the games, and write down notes on whether your winger is "sort-of fast" or "really really fast" .. and whether his skills at corners "suck" or "totally rocks". How would we ever know if a players has 14 or 15 in Pace?? .. or if his Composure is 5 or 7.

It is a game, not real life ... and since the hidden stats are pretty important, and you (often) have very little indication of them, it becomes a chore having to write notes for your 40+ players, while having to watch for any kind of signs during the game of what their stats MIGHT be. Some of us don't really find that enjoyable.[/QUOTE]

+1 :)

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Okay as said this'll be changed for the next patch, cheers for all your comments.

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I'd like SI to explain the options that we suggest to the tutor and tutee. That seems completely random.

I've been testing this and in one run the tutee rejected at first then went along with the process once I made a guess between 3 more options. 2nd run, choosing the same first option on the tutor, the tutee jumps at the opportunity to learn from the player.

The official manual has nothing of importance on the issue of tutoring, so some explanations from SI would help.

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Nice to know Tutoring system will be changed in next patch...

But please let us know answer of the question JiggyDempsey asked above.. really wanna know too

Regards

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[quote name='Neil Brock']Okay as said this'll be changed for the next patch, cheers for all your comments.[/QUOTE]

Fantastic! Neil Brock, you're the man!

I wish I could ask you to tutor Ian Jarvis from the EA Fifa 11 team. You could pass on some of your traits and preferred moves to him, god knows he needs some.

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[quote name='Neil Brock']Okay as said this'll be changed for the next patch, cheers for all your comments.[/QUOTE]

Excellent ... looking forward to that. And to add to what Jiggy said ..

PLEASE make sure to describe HOW you changed it, so we don't have to spend hours figuring it out (again).

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[quote name='StormenDK']Yes, lets hide all the stats on players .. that way you can sit and look at the games, and write down notes on whether your winger is "sort-of fast" or "really really fast" .. and whether his skills at corners "suck" or "totally rocks". How would we ever know if a players has 14 or 15 in Pace?? .. or if his Composure is 5 or 7.

It is a game, not real life ... and since the hidden stats are pretty important, and you (often) have very little indication of them, it becomes a chore having to write notes for your 40+ players, while having to watch for any kind of signs during the game of what their stats MIGHT be. Some of us don't really find that enjoyable.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for saving me the trouble of writing something similar :thup:

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[quote name='StormenDK']Yes, lets hide all the stats on players .. that way you can sit and look at the games, and write down notes on whether your winger is "sort-of fast" or "really really fast" .. and whether his skills at corners "suck" or "totally rocks". How would we ever know if a players has 14 or 15 in Pace?? .. or if his Composure is 5 or 7.

It is a game, not real life ... and since the hidden stats are pretty important, and you (often) have very little indication of them, it becomes a chore having to write notes for your 40+ players, while having to watch for any kind of signs during the game of what their stats MIGHT be. Some of us don't really find that enjoyable.[/QUOTE]

Exactly my point of view too.
It's become very off topic, but I would LOVE a 'display hidden attributes' option.

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[quote name='bigdanio']Giggs wouldn't tutor Bale, they might have a chat and trade advice but he certainly wouldn't take him under his wing.[/QUOTE]

Ronaldinho - Messi?
Blanc - Ferdinand?

There's a lot that even wonderkids can learn from more experienced players who have seen it, done it for years.

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[quote name='Chochip']Exactly my point of view too.
It's become very off topic, but I would LOVE a 'display hidden attributes' option.[/QUOTE]

Definitely, it's almost impossible to find out who are the good tutors with better mental attributes than the tutees without the aid of an editor. They need to be much more obvious even if they are to remain hidden. Right now it's pretty much a hit or miss affair.


[b]Case in point: Is Player A a good tutor for Player B?[/B]

[B]Player A[/B]
[IMG]http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9687/playeraz.jpg[/IMG]

[B]Player B[/B]
[IMG]http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7273/playerb.jpg[/IMG]

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I would agree that it would be nice to have a little more insight into some aspects of players, but I don't want to be able to see everything plainly like their playing stats. If you know ever detail about a player the mystery of 'should I sign this guy or the other one' is gone and you lose half the point of a management sim.

Edit: I just want tutoring to work... don't so much care about having the good and bad tutors spelled out for me.

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[quote name='John Smith']Definitely, it's almost impossible to find out who are the good tutors with better mental attributes than the tutees without the aid of an editor. They need to be much more obvious even if they are to remain hidden. Right now it's pretty much a hit or miss affair.


[b]Case in point: Is Player A a good tutor for Player B?[/B]

[B]Player A[/B]
[IMG]http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9687/playeraz.jpg[/IMG]

[B]Player B[/B]
[IMG]http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7273/playerb.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

In this case, no, because spirited is good proffessionalism + good pressure.

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[quote name='Sarmatian']In this case, no, because spirited is good proffessionalism + good pressure.[/QUOTE]

I would say that depends :) ... Player A, probably have better Professionalism than B, and who knows what Pressure score A has. So I guess it can be interesting to try, as A has very low Controversy as well. But what about Sportsmanship and Ambition in the two?? .. there is no indication of that here at all ... so would B gain or lose points in those by being tutored by A??

You would have to weigh the potential gains against the potential loss of mental stats.

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You're right, there's not enough information, but based on this limited info, I wouldn't do it, but then again, I'm a sucker for players that can handle pressure

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[quote name='Chochip']It's become very off topic, but I would LOVE a 'display hidden attributes' option.[/QUOTE]

the only way to do it is through skin editor. and it is possibile.
however I agree with the fact the we need more info (not necessary the exact values)

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Am I the only person who thinks tutoring shouldn't even be in the game?

I honestly just think it is daft and unrealistic, and I wish the option wasn't there.

Quite apart from being sick of youngsters refusing to do it, I am also sick of players falling out and becoming enemies.

But that is not all, it's just in real life players don't tutor each other. Can you honestly imagine Alex Ferguson calling Chris Smalling and Rio Ferdinand into his office and saying, "Right Chris, I want you to learn from Rio. I want him to teach you how to defend better, and how to cope with the mental aspects of the game. He can teach you how to be more determined, more hard working. If you listen to Rio you will become stronger mentally, a better footballer, and have more of a chance of playing for England."

I know for a fact this doesn't happen. This is the manager's job, plus that of his assistant and coaches, not senior players. This is taught in training, where yes, they can watch older players train, but they don't spend extra time with the senior players in order to become more determined, or better leaders.

Completely unrealistic.

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If it does happen it happens in very rare cases (I bet no-one can actually name any/many), and not nearly enough for it to be a feature in this game. Certainly not to the point where, let's face it, you want all yor young players to be being tutored by a senior player, as is the case in FM. As I said, completely unrealistic.

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The main gripe I have with tutoring is the PPM's that get passed on, when playing as Liverpool every midfielder I get tutored by Gerrard runs around like superman shooting from obscene ranges etc. If I'm just being stupid and there is actually a turoring option that doesn't pass on PPM's then I'd like to know, thanks :D

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It would be an amazing feature (for the future I'm sure) if it could somehow become a natural 'connection' between players, so we're advised that a senior player has taken a youngster under his wing or the youngster is inspired by the example set by the senior pro and adapts his game/approach accordingly.

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Yesterday I read that McEachran's getting tutored by Lampard (IRL). it's a good feature; it just doesn't flippin' work. Was okay in FM10.3; can't think why they loused it up.

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[quote name='Neil Brock']It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.[/QUOTE]

I think that how the system is set up right now is great in theory! There is no way a wonderkid who thinks he's all that let himself get "tutored" by someone with a low reputation.

The issue is that in practice, older players lose reputation A LOT in game.
i.e. players like Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo, Riquelme etc. all still have incredible reputations in real life, simply because of their past. Everyone will always remember players of that caliber and would be thrilled to be tutored by them unless they have contradicting beliefs or maybe simple rivalries. Unfortunately in the game, their reputation is tiny in comparison which restricts them for being able to tutor anyone.

I think this is where the issue arises, since it makes sense in real life but when it gets translated into the engine, it falls apart. The solution would be to create a new reputation level that, well, never decreases but increases really slowly throughout a players career. So that players like Roberto Carlos will reach a high level and will always be "remembered" and youngster will look up to him, no matter his current ability or current reputation.

On the age aspect, its very hard to debate this on, but I think it should be implemented slightly differently than it is currently.
My opinion:
1)Players under the age of 23 should be capable of being tutored.
2)Players inbetween 23 and 25 should be capable of being tutored BUT will generally return with a negative response to the suggestion, unless a player that is their idol is suggested.
3)Players of age 23 with under 6500 should apply to 1), players with over that should apply to 2).

Thats just my interpretation and maybe i've gone too far in depth.

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[quote name='Ellis_D']Am I the only person who thinks tutoring shouldn't even be in the game?

I honestly just think it is daft and unrealistic, and I wish the option wasn't there.

Quite apart from being sick of youngsters refusing to do it, I am also sick of players falling out and becoming enemies.

But that is not all, it's just in real life players don't tutor each other. Can you honestly imagine Alex Ferguson calling Chris Smalling and Rio Ferdinand into his office and saying, "Right Chris, I want you to learn from Rio. I want him to teach you how to defend better, and how to cope with the mental aspects of the game. He can teach you how to be more determined, more hard working. If you listen to Rio you will become stronger mentally, a better footballer, and have more of a chance of playing for England."

I know for a fact this doesn't happen. This is the manager's job, plus that of his assistant and coaches, not senior players. This is taught in training, where yes, they can watch older players train, but they don't spend extra time with the senior players in order to become more determined, or better leaders.

Completely unrealistic.[/QUOTE]


I doubt this very much Ferguson is always saying how important his senior players are in the development of the younger players at the club, teaching them how to live on and off the field. Also having someone senior to yourself to shadow is no different to doing an apprenticeship, something that has been in effect in football and the working world for a very long time.

I also think you choose a wrong example with Smalling and Rio considering Fergie bought him with the hope he will become Ferdinand's successor. And the fact there has been comparisons drawn between the two players by pundits,players,coaches as well as the manager himself, so I would suggest that the two players are very much working closely together.

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[quote name='Ellis_D']Am I the only person who thinks tutoring shouldn't even be in the game?

I honestly just think it is daft and unrealistic, and I wish the option wasn't there.

Quite apart from being sick of youngsters refusing to do it, I am also sick of players falling out and becoming enemies.

But that is not all, it's just in real life players don't tutor each other. Can you honestly imagine Alex Ferguson calling Chris Smalling and Rio Ferdinand into his office and saying, "Right Chris, I want you to learn from Rio. I want him to teach you how to defend better, and how to cope with the mental aspects of the game. He can teach you how to be more determined, more hard working. If you listen to Rio you will become stronger mentally, a better footballer, and have more of a chance of playing for England."

I know for a fact this doesn't happen. This is the manager's job, plus that of his assistant and coaches, not senior players. This is taught in training, where yes, they can watch older players train, but they don't spend extra time with the senior players in order to become more determined, or better leaders.

Completely unrealistic.[/QUOTE]


I think your wrong, the way the game goes about tutoring is most likely not even close to how a real manager might approach a youngster. If you think a manager like SAF doesn't allow his junior players to shadow the more senior players, then I don't think you understand football. A player grows by learning and a good player learns by watching other players. FACT

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[quote name='Novox']The solution would be to create a new reputation level that, well, never decreases but increases really slowly throughout a players career. So that players like Roberto Carlos will reach a high level and will always be "remembered" and youngster will look up to him, no matter his current ability or current reputation.[/QUOTE]

Rather than creating an additional reputation system, a good and far more simple alternative would be to record the highest reputation value reached during the player's career.

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[quote name='ProZone']Rather than creating an additional reputation system, a good and far more simple alternative would be to record the highest reputation value reached during the player's career.[/QUOTE]

Agree. Players can be even better tutors when they're ending their career.

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[quote name='clonerohin1']Is it meant to be this way?
Is it Broken?
1. The majority of promising young stars (wonderkids) and hot prospects are now Un-Tutorable. Lukaku, Kadlec, Rodwell are just few well-known ones that cannot be tutored in the game apart from other lesser known ones like Torric, Livaja etc (both in my team) and countless others. These are teenagers, and in order for them to realize their full potential they need Tutoring, and the much needed hidden mental trait attributes which come as a result.

2. Tutors that have been asked to tutor once (irrespective of whether they ended up doing it or not), cannot be asked again for a long time. Some have reported as long as two years since they last asked a Veteran to Tutor and are still getting the tutoring option greyed out.
[/QUOTE]

1)It's not just about reputation. Players like Lukaku, Kadlec and Rodwell will sign for most clubs on at least First Team Contracts. They have signed for me before, in various seasons, at West Ham. You cannot tutor a player who has the same or higher club status as you.
Example .... Mathew Upson = Key Player cannot tutor Lukaku =Key player.
Rob Green = Key Player can tutor Jack Butland = Back up.

NOTE; I tutored Jordan Spence with Mathew Upson and it had a negative affect. Spence actually lost 3 determination points. There was a big personality gap..... I actually like this feature, although it can be annoying ;)

2)In season 2010/2011 as West Ham, I sucessfully got Rob Green to tutor Jack Butland twice in a row with just about a month between requests.

I dont think Tutoring is broken or bugged, I just think it's difficult ....... as it should be.
If you think about it, it would be a difficult thing in RL to do, so why should it be easier on FM?
Sometimes, people want every action they take in FM to be sucessful....... If that were the case, SI would lose half it's custom.

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[quote name='ProZone']Rather than creating an additional reputation system, a good and far more simple alternative would be to record the highest reputation value reached during the player's career.[/QUOTE]

fair enough :P for some reason that never came to mind and sounds a lot easier than creating a whole new reputation system. :)
thanks

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[quote name='Rice2cu']1)It's not just about reputation. Players like Lukaku, Kadlec and Rodwell will sign for most clubs on at least First Team Contracts. They have signed for me before, in various seasons, at West Ham. You cannot tutor a player who has the same or higher club status as you.
Example .... Mathew Upson = Key Player cannot tutor Lukaku =Key player.
Rob Green = Key Player can tutor Jack Butland = Back up.

NOTE; I tutored Jordan Spence with Mathew Upson and it had a negative affect. Spence actually lost 3 determination points. There was a big personality gap..... I actually like this feature, although it can be annoying ;)

2)In season 2010/2011 as West Ham, I sucessfully got Rob Green to tutor Jack Butland twice in a row with just about a month between requests.

I dont think Tutoring is broken or bugged, I just think it's difficult ....... as it should be.
If you think about it, it would be a difficult thing in RL to do, so why should it be easier on FM?
[B]Sometimes, people want every action they take in FM to be sucessful....... If that were the case, SI would lose half it's custom.[/B][/QUOTE]

I think there's something to be said about FM showing us [B]why[/B] we're successful/unsuccessful,
rather than the random chance that it seems to be with a whole host of options e.g. tutoring, morale at present.

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[quote name='BossAsianMafia']I think there's something to be said about FM showing us [B]why[/B] we're successful/unsuccessful,
rather than the random chance that it seems to be with a whole host of options e.g. tutoring, morale at present.[/QUOTE]

wouldnt say morale is chancey at all, the only issue is that it drops and rises in too a big a change

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[quote name='cruyff14']I doubt this very much Ferguson is always saying how important his senior players are in the development of the younger players at the club, teaching them how to live on and off the field. Also having someone senior to yourself to shadow is no different to doing an apprenticeship, something that has been in effect in football and the working world for a very long time.

I also think you choose a wrong example with Smalling and Rio considering Fergie bought him with the hope he will become Ferdinand's successor. And the fact there has been comparisons drawn between the two players by pundits,players,coaches as well as the manager himself, so I would suggest that the two players are very much working closely together.[/QUOTE]

I honestly don't think they will be working any closer together than any other players at ManUre. I think they will all just train together as normal and that is it.

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[quote name='interesti88']I think your wrong, the way the game goes about tutoring is most likely not even close to how a real manager might approach a youngster. If you think a manager like SAF doesn't allow his junior players to shadow the more senior players, then I don't think you understand football. A player grows by learning and a good player learns by watching other players. FACT[/QUOTE]

Erm, I did say they will watch the older players, but there is no way two players will work seperately from the group for a long period of time. They all train together it's as simple as that. Have you never seen training sessions before? I have, and I have never seen two players off working on their own every day.

Nor do they work together alone outside of training, so yeah, as I said, completely unrealistic. Perhaps it's you who doesn't understand football.

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[quote name='Ellis_D']Erm, I did say they will watch the older players, but there is no way two players will work seperately from the group for a long period of time. They all train together it's as simple as that. Have you never seen training sessions before? I have, and I have never seen two players off working on their own every day.

Nor do they work together alone outside of training, so yeah, as I said, completely unrealistic. Perhaps it's you who doesn't understand football.[/QUOTE]

LOL. Don't get so upset my friend, I wasn't saying these 2 example players go off and train by themselves either but I'm pretty sure they put in some extra work on the trainning field

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']wouldnt say morale is chancey at all, the only issue is that it drops and rises in too a big a change[/QUOTE]

Meant player interaction and its effect on Morale. Seemed more like a click-and-hope at this point in time.

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[quote name='BossAsianMafia']Meant player interaction and its effect on Morale. Seemed more like a click-and-hope at this point in time.[/QUOTE]

ah yeah that i can kinda agree with, player interaction was a huge part of my game in fm10, i still use it, but not as much simply it because it feels too click and hope. maybe i'm just not getting it perfectly right this time round, but thats how it feels to me

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[quote name='Edinton']It would be an amazing feature (for the future I'm sure) if it could somehow become a natural 'connection' between players, so we're advised that a senior player has taken a youngster under his wing or the youngster is inspired by the example set by the senior pro and adapts his game/approach accordingly.[/QUOTE]

Always thought that it should be a lot more like this.

For instance: you'd perhaps sign a young CB and he'd say that he was eager to work closely with Nemanja Vidic, and really thought he could learn a lot from him. Then he'd just start modelling his game on Nemanja, without your consent. Or the CB would declare that he idolises Scholes and start imitating his loyalty and professionalism off the pitch - even though they don't play the same position on the pitch.

If you didn't like where it was heading, then you might comment that you don't envision YoungCB as a rugged stopper in the manner of Vidic, and actually thought that he would do better to look at Ferdinand's positioning and play-reading abilities, or that you felt the youngster should learn to be his own man - and if the youngster respects you, he might follow your suggestion.
The same could work with friendships, which are modelled spectacularly badly in the game (how come players don't mutually put each other on their favoured personnel lists?- It's always one-way hero worship, rarely a mutual friendship).

Real-life Examples:
Giggs used to live with Lee Sharpe when he was a youngster. Lee Sharpe was not very professional, and Giggs started joining in his party lifestyle, so Ferguson went round his house and gave him the hairdryer: Giggs didn't ask Ferguson whether he should model his off-field behaviour on Sharpe, he just started doing it, until Ferguson made him stop.

Darren Fletcher modelled his attitude to training and his on-field play completely on Roy Keane. He idolised him completely and utterly, (even though Keane thought he was a crap player) and has spoken in many interviews of how Keane set the tone for training, and demanded 100% of the young players and new arrivals, and how he (Fletcher) tries to continue that tradition now that he's a first-team regular.


If a player with high influence and/or reputation automatically sets an example for many of the younger players (ie "auto-mentors" them), then it would suddenly make a lot more sense to keep old and sensible heads in the dressing room. And a player like Ronaldinho would suddenly be far more of a gamble: "What if younger players start copying his behaviour?" would be a question you'd actually have to weigh up before you signed him. Instead of just looking at technical stats, with a brief glance at determination and workrate and a mental note not to use him as a tutor.

Your squad would have a personality that actually mattered, and spread:
When Wenger took over Arsenal, one of his first problems was how to handle the highly determined, highly influential, but unprofessional gamblers and drinkers of Arsenal's 90s bootroom.
Supposedly, when Mourinho got fired and Grant was in charge, Terry, Lampard and Drogba basically ran Chelsea - setting the tone, keeping everyone in line.


In FM, some people just sell their players the day they hit 30, and they never find themselves in a situation like Arsenal's where a lack of leadership in the dressing room has cost them games and entire competitions - because having a dressing room full of leaders means diddly squat in FM.

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