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Tutoring - What's the Official SI take on this?

93 posts in this topic

Is it meant to be this way?

Is it Broken?

Is it being phased out as a feature?

Is it being made inconsequential while other features are introduced?

Countless threads talking about Tutoring (or the inability to do it) in FM11 have now been opened across the SI forums now. Almost everyone who has tried it has found it unyielding and confusing to use. While in FM10 it used to be one of my personal favourites, my experience of this feature in FM11 exactly mirrors what everyoine else is saying.

1. The majority of promising young stars (wonderkids) and hot prospects are now Un-Tutorable. Lukaku, Kadlec, Rodwell are just few well-known ones that cannot be tutored in the game apart from other lesser known ones like Torric, Livaja etc (both in my team) and countless others. These are teenagers, and in order for them to realize their full potential they need Tutoring, and the much needed hidden mental trait attributes which come as a result.

2. Tutors that have been asked to tutor once (irrespective of whether they ended up doing it or not), cannot be asked again for a long time. Some have reported as long as two years since they last asked a Veteran to Tutor and are still getting the tutoring option greyed out.

I have searched the fourms for an official answer from SI, and so far have only found a meagre two tiny posts about it by Neil Brock from SI.

"It's probably due to the fact his reputation is of such a high level he cannot be tutored. Personally I think that's wrong and that players of a certain age no matter their ability should be able to be tutored but we're in disagreement here how this should be done. Cheers for taking the time to bring this up."

"Certain players cannot be tutored depending on their age and reputation - in terms of the 'conversations' not working on certain young players, I'll look into that. Thanks."

How about a real answer guys? SI, Neil, just tell us what we can do to make the most of this feature do until you fix it?

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From all the talk it certainly seems to be the intended behavior, but aside from the comment above I've not seen anything else about it from SI.

But even if it's the intended behavior its horrible. Maybe it's bugged, rep numbers not being correct or something. But imo basing it primarily on rep is the wrong way to go about it. Because if you play a lower league team you're not likely to ever recruit a youngster with a lower rep (low enough) for your vets to ever tutor anyone.

Like my MLS game, reps aren't very high for most MLS player, I mean they are all national but so what, most everyone is national at the pro level. I have players ranging in ages from 17-23 and none of my vets can tutor any of them, even though some have MASSIVE technical and mental stat differences. -THAT- is what tutoring should be based on, if a player can actually learn anything from a vet or not. Basing it on rep is like every single youngster saying 'shut-up and go away old man, you can't teach me anything because more people buy my shirt'.

Seriously it needs to be reverted back to what is was in FM10, just the success level and ppm transfers needed toned down.

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I'm really hoping it's a bug. Coz even if they intended to make said changes to the tutoring system, it clearly did not turn out right or even realistic.

Think, all the excitement of growing a promising youngster into a star, watching his value skyrocket as he became a key player in your team. This will now be marred by the fact that he is remained an unprofessional relaxed dude who would not train enough to relaize his potential and could barely manage a Backup role in your squad. Or, he continued to be an overly ambitious disloyal git who scrammed the first chance he got once his reputation grew high enough. Rodwell could become the next Cattermole or the next Patrick Viera, depending on who we could not get to tutor him.

Basing it on Rep at all is the wrong way to go about it really. The best that could be done was to have the tutor rep higher than the youngster's. No other restrictions. Let the manager choose. In fact, the system in FM10 was near perfect. Even if they had to tone it down, it would've worked. Right now tutoring is NOT a feature in this game, as far as I'm concerned.

What's the point in tutoring the obscure never-going-to-be-any-good youngsters (except for 1-2 okay ones every season) in my U18 team? I guess life's easier if you're managing a top 10 club in the top 5 leagues since you can almost just buy your way to glory (no disrespect meant), but what about all the rest of us who need all the features we can get?

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the system in FM10 was near perfect. Even if they had to tone it down, it would've worked. Right now tutoring is NOT a feature in this game, as far as I'm concerned.

as far as we are concerned

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I personally do not like the tutoring system how it is and think that it should happen naturally if an older player gets on well with a younger player rather than now whereby we choose the players manually.

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I personally do not like the tutoring system how it is and think that it should happen naturally if an older player gets on well with a younger player rather than now whereby we choose the players manually.

I was certainly of the view that tutoring was a natural aspect rather than an enforced one. You cannot force a player to tutor someone as they might not get on. If a young player arrives at a club, there needs to be a period of settling into their new environment, getting to know their teammates, etc and then if a "Veteran" and a young player get on then the tutoring becomes available as an option.

I personally see no problem with it and think it should stay as it is. Players like Rodwell, etc maybe believe they are too big a star to be tutored and that is why they do not have it as an option.

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I think it is intended by SI, to curb what I think they saw as an abuse of the system in FM10 ... people would make tutoring "factories", trying to weed out all bad traits of future stars, and making it too "easy" to get youngsters at almost full potential by the age of 24.

Currently it seems to work on reputation and CA. Both have to be higher in the tutor than in the youngster. Problem is that the tutor's rep. has to be higher by a certain amount (in my tests that seems to be 41 points in Current Rep. in the editor). But with the way that Reputation is represented in the game, how on earth are you ever going to know if your tutor's score is good enough??

Reputation level in-game seems inconsistent. I have seem one Player/Coach with 'Regional' reputation have lower rep values in the db than another player who's reputation is only 'Local'. How can I trust the in-game reputation at all?? .. also the ranges it covers are too great, so many many players will be of the same reputation in the game, but could be miles apart in the actual db values that you can't see.

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Well seeing as this is another 'feature' that the playerbase is supposed to put on their mystic meg costume to understand, I have reverted to science to get the answer (until someone from SI care to make a comment)

magic8ball.jpg

Magic 8 ball says 'man who go bed with itchy bum,wake up with smelly finger!'

There you go, that's your answer. Now arn't you happy that SI doesn't make one of those silly user manual/guides where they explain how stuff works!

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From some testing I've done with FMRTE I found that a player cannot be tutored if his reputation is about 6000. This is seriously low. Any proper promising players will have reputation higher than this. That's like saying you can only tutor the crappy young players and the promising ones have to do it all by themselves with no help. Ridiculous.

Why did they have to change this? It was working perfectly fine as it was.

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I'm quite interested to hear the official stance on this. I've had a problem where in my first season I tried to tutor a young player with a model professional... all I ended up with was a youngster refusing to be tutored and the model pro becoming v unhappy as a result. Next season I get a really talented young striker in, do the same as last season and this time the youngster couldn't be happier to be tutored. In terms of reputation both the young players were the same, but the results were obviously v different

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I'm quite interested to hear the official stance on this. I've had a problem where in my first season I tried to tutor a young player with a model professional... all I ended up with was a youngster refusing to be tutored and the model pro becoming v unhappy as a result. Next season I get a really talented young striker in, do the same as last season and this time the youngster couldn't be happier to be tutored. In terms of reputation both the young players were the same, but the results were obviously v different

You obviously should have interacted with first young player and chose the option 'Slip him some Prozac' lol

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I'm quite amazed at the lack of official posting activity in the last few days. They've all gone somewhere.

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I'm quite amazed at the lack of official posting activity in the last few days. They've all gone somewhere.

Yeah, dodging bullets...

There are always silly complaints on game forums, but compared to what I saw before 11's release it seems rather clear they dropped the ball pretty badly in a number of areas. Think they are starting to realize that.

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I'm quite interested to hear the official stance on this. I've had a problem where in my first season I tried to tutor a young player with a model professional... all I ended up with was a youngster refusing to be tutored and the model pro becoming v unhappy as a result. Next season I get a really talented young striker in, do the same as last season and this time the youngster couldn't be happier to be tutored. In terms of reputation both the young players were the same, but the results were obviously v different

That might have to do with his personality rather than reputation or skill.

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I'm quite amazed at the lack of official posting activity in the last few days. They've all gone somewhere.

maybe working? :cool:

From some testing I've done with FMRTE I found that a player cannot be tutored if his reputation is about 6000.

can you name some player slighty up 6000?

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I was certainly of the view that tutoring was a natural aspect rather than an enforced one. You cannot force a player to tutor someone as they might not get on. If a young player arrives at a club, there needs to be a period of settling into their new environment, getting to know their teammates, etc and then if a "Veteran" and a young player get on then the tutoring becomes available as an option.

I personally see no problem with it and think it should stay as it is. Players like Rodwell, etc maybe believe they are too big a star to be tutored and that is why they do not have it as an option.

Well, if you've played FM long enough, you will have noticed that while it's quite an intelligent game, the AI is not always all there. So, to leave tutoring for the AI to manage is going to be a huge risk, amybe even worse than it is now. What if the AI decides to tutor my fairly professional wonderkid by a Temperamental Aging Midifielder who 'argues with officials'. It'll ruin him.

No Sir, I would rather select tutors for the youngsters in my team myself and be responsible for it (since 'I' am the manager), than leave it to my buggy assistant manager (check my other thread...) or the game AI, which already has enough on it's plate.

Nobody is 'Forcing' a player to tutor another since they both have a choice, as you'll notice when you have a Private chat with them, to turn down your suggestion.

Also, I don't understand how you've linked being a highly reputed youngster to being too good for guidance by another Veteran reputed player. It is all about realizing potential, my friend. If Jack Rodwell is not tutored, he will remain the 'Fairly Ambitious' personality he is described as in the first season, instead of becoming the Determined Def Midfielder many might want him to be.

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Well, if you've played FM long enough, you will have noticed that while it's quite an intelligent game, the AI is not always all there. So, to leave tutoring for the AI to manage is going to be a huge risk, amybe even worse than it is now. What if the AI decides to tutor my fairly professional wonderkid by a Temperamental Aging Midifielder who 'argues with officials'. It'll ruin him.

No Sir, I would rather select tutors for the youngsters in my team myself and be responsible for it (since 'I' am the manager), than leave it to my buggy assistant manager (check my other thread...) or the game AI, which already has enough on it's plate.

Nobody is 'Forcing' a player to tutor another since they both have a choice, as you'll notice when you have a Private chat with them, to turn down your suggestion.

Also, I don't understand how you've linked being a highly reputed youngster to being too good for guidance by another Veteran reputed player. It is all about realizing potential, my friend. If Jack Rodwell is not tutored, he will remain the 'Fairly Ambitious' personality he is described as in the first season, instead of becoming the Determined Def Midfielder many might want him to be.

To be fair I dont think you should be able to change personality through tutoring I think players personalities should be left as they are when they are generated. A Gazza is and always will be a Gazza no matter whether he is tutored or not.

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It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

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Well, if you've played FM long enough, you will have noticed that while it's quite an intelligent game, the AI is not always all there. So, to leave tutoring for the AI to manage is going to be a huge risk, amybe even worse than it is now. What if the AI decides to tutor my fairly professional wonderkid by a Temperamental Aging Midifielder who 'argues with officials'. It'll ruin him.

No Sir, I would rather select tutors for the youngsters in my team myself and be responsible for it (since 'I' am the manager), than leave it to my buggy assistant manager (check my other thread...) or the game AI, which already has enough on it's plate.

Nobody is 'Forcing' a player to tutor another since they both have a choice, as you'll notice when you have a Private chat with them, to turn down your suggestion.

Also, I don't understand how you've linked being a highly reputed youngster to being too good for guidance by another Veteran reputed player. It is all about realizing potential, my friend. If Jack Rodwell is not tutored, he will remain the 'Fairly Ambitious' personality he is described as in the first season, instead of becoming the Determined Def Midfielder many might want him to be.

I have played FM long enough, I started back with CM 00/01 so I do know a thing or two. I rarely have an issue with the game, maybe because I view it as a game and not as a replica of real life.

I wasn't suggesting that the AI chooses who tutors your promising young player. In fact all I was suggesting is that the AI uses whatever formula coded by SI to determine when a player is ready for tutoring. You still have to decide if he is the right person for the job. Of course I would like to say to a player that a certain person would be good for them to learn from but if the two players don't get on then it is a wasted exercise. I like it when I get the message suggesting that Player X would benefit from Player , then having a chat, I don't have to think of every little aspect of coaching, that is why I hire coaches. May be there is a flaw with the Assistant and he is a little idiotic but I find mine to be perfectly reasonable and very rarely make any stupid suggestions. May be I'm just lucky.

My comment about Rodwell, was only that his coded personality is may be why you can't tutor him. As stated tutoring should not/can not change a players personality. It can may be make them a better player by introducing new skills and developing existing ones but you cannot expect to turn an unambitious, temperamental, although highly skilled player into a saint by having him tutored by another individual. That is what a managers man management skills are for. Do you think Rooney became less temperamental because he was being tutored by Ferdinand or Giggs or do you think Ferguson took him to the side and helped him calm down and focus on helping the team by staying on the park?

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It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

Thanks for answers. I didn't find any info here about a lowering age limit....can you be more specific regarding info like this?

Can you check a young GK called Franceschin in Italian Serie B, team Triestina? He should start at 16.

Which player can be a tutor of a young one generally? Over 23?

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It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

Neil, I suppose examples that might be used are, Bebe and Javier Hernandez at Man Utd could be tutored by Nani and Rooney respectively if there is indeed a limit of who can tutor and be tutored. Both players are over 21 and would be tutored by players only 3 - 4 years older but would definitely benefit from the experience. May be the terminology needs to be revisited or added to. Work alongside might be a better description than tutor as it doesn't suggest age.

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It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

Example:

Bath City, Player Coach Jim Rollo (in-game rep: Regional, editor rep: 29/29/6, CA/PA 36/60) ... he can't even tutor an Obscure player with rep. values 1/1/1 (Rollo needs a 42 Current rep to tutor him). He has, according to the game, a great reputation, a great personality and hundreds of league games of experience. Yet he can't tutor even the most unknown and untalented player the game can create.

This makes absolutely no sense.

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It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

On the Age issue, I agree with you. It was a bit weird when a 27 yr old was able to tutor a 25 yr old. They're pretty much the same age. Maybe in addition to lowering the maximum age at which one can be tutored (my suggestion 22-23), there should also be placed a minimum age difference like 5 yrs between the tutor and student(?).

While, I still can't decide if Reputation should play a role in this, apart from the student's being lower than the tutor's, I do have a couple suggestions regarding CA's effect on tutoring:

1. Of course, like before, the Tutor's CA should be higher than the Student's CA.

2. Maybe, there could also be this minimum difference between the Tutor and student CAs. However, it should not be very high (like it probably is right now), because a majority of promising wonderkids already come with high Reps without the CA to match but with plenty of potential.

3. One solution to this could be - Instead of using just CA as a criteria, why not use ability difference (PA - CA) as a measure.[Let's call this Potential]

So, now this potential in addition to the age factor mentioned above could give a measure of the Maturity of a player. All players below a certain Maturity threshold value should be allowed to be tutored.

I don't know how much sense that makes to you, or if you guys have already discussed it, but this is one possible solution I think.

EDIT: As far as specific possible Tutor-Student example go, I think they're of use only to people managing Top clubs. It does not apply too well to managers like me who choose to manage Grasshopper Club Zurich in the Swiss Super League, so... :confused:

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I think maybe tutoring should not be restricted on CA and Rep. (age is fine .... and I am fine with 21 being the max. age of the tutee). Let the manager fix up anyone they want, but use the difference in Rep and CA in the calculations of the effects of the tutoring.

The problem with CA is that it tends to fade as players get into the age range where they can be good tutors. So once he hits 35 he suddenly becomes useless as a tutor?? ... I would think that even though your 18-year old might have better attributes that the old geezer, doesn't mean that he in anyway can't learn from the guy who have played 400 league games more than him, has a calm personality and who has 3 PPMs to teach. Since tutoring only affects Determination stat of the ones that counts towards CA (or does DET count against CA??), I fail too see how Current Ability should affect a tutoring relationship. In a bit of an extreme comparison, you could say that it is like if only coaches who are better footballers can ever teach a football player anything?? ... some coaches have never even played professionally themselves.

Reputation seems off too ... if it means that a World-classer won't listen to a Local reputation tutor, then fine. But don't restrict me in my selection of tutor ... either let the youth reject my proprosed tutor (depending on his personality and his relationship with me and/or the tutor), or let the tutoring continue (if the both accept) but at a much less chance of the youngster gaining much from the tutor.

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I just asked one of my senior players fairly determined with a determination of 16 to tutor a player that is balanced with a determination of 8 and the young player has stated that he doesnt want to and is now unhappy with me because of my choice of tutor.

Is it better to just wait for the backroom advice screen to let the coaches give advice on who would be a good tutor for my youth players or is there a list somewhere on which personalities match?

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I can understand that they are trying to make tutoring more realistic and less far fetched, but as of right now the current restrictions are too strict and pretty much all promising youngsters/wonderkids cannot be tutored unless you possess some super worldclass rep player.

Just because a young player has a higher than usual CA it doesn't mean he doesn't need the experience of an older player.

Please change this to be like before, or at least loosen the rules a lot more.

You may think you are doing the right thing but at the end of the day, none of us like what you've done to it.

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As said we are most definitely looking into this, cheers.

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In my game the only player that can give a tutor is the ones in the under 19's - all my young players in the first team are just not an option in the drop down list.

Please add this to the long list of things to sort out please SI.

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I have played FM long enough, I started back with CM 00/01 so I do know a thing or two. I rarely have an issue with the game, maybe because I view it as a game and not as a replica of real life.

I wasn't suggesting that the AI chooses who tutors your promising young player. In fact all I was suggesting is that the AI uses whatever formula coded by SI to determine when a player is ready for tutoring. You still have to decide if he is the right person for the job. Of course I would like to say to a player that a certain person would be good for them to learn from but if the two players don't get on then it is a wasted exercise. I like it when I get the message suggesting that Player X would benefit from Player , then having a chat, I don't have to think of every little aspect of coaching, that is why I hire coaches. May be there is a flaw with the Assistant and he is a little idiotic but I find mine to be perfectly reasonable and very rarely make any stupid suggestions. May be I'm just lucky.

My comment about Rodwell, was only that his coded personality is may be why you can't tutor him. As stated tutoring should not/can not change a players personality. It can may be make them a better player by introducing new skills and developing existing ones but you cannot expect to turn an unambitious, temperamental, although highly skilled player into a saint by having him tutored by another individual. That is what a managers man management skills are for. Do you think Rooney became less temperamental because he was being tutored by Ferdinand or Giggs or do you think Ferguson took him to the side and helped him calm down and focus on helping the team by staying on the park?

What you're suggesting about the coaches letting you know that a player is ready to be tutored is already a feature in the game, so... that argument's going nowhere. Although, I do agree that the frequency of such messages could be increased. I'm glad you've got a good Asst Mgr, however, anyone who's playing in a second tier league or managing a team with limited resources would not have one and so the Asst Mgr will be a perpetual annoyance with all his stupid ideas about who should be tutored by who.

Where exactly is it stated that tutoring cannot change personality? I'd really like to know seeing as every now 'n then I've seen players personalities change after being tutored in FM10. Noone is trying to turn an axe murderer into a saint, but I would certainly hope to acheive Unsporting - > Realist, or , Perfectionist -> Model Professional.

If you don't know what I'm talking about then see this thread about personalities in FM...

Anyways, this is not what I'm here to argue for. We already have a tutoring system in place, apparently. The only problem with it is how limited choices are being allowed to be tutored, and a Possible Bug with a Player not being allowed to tutor again once he's been asked to once.

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I can understand that they are trying to make tutoring more realistic and less far fetched, but as of right now the current restrictions are too strict and pretty much all promising youngsters/wonderkids cannot be tutored unless you possess some super worldclass rep player.

Just because a young player has a higher than usual CA it doesn't mean he doesn't need the experience of an older player.

Please change this to be like before, or at least loosen the rules a lot more.

You may think you are doing the right thing but at the end of the day, none of us like what you've done to it.

Very well written. Sums up almost the whole thread... Cheers!

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If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

Interpreted... Can you lot that don't get paid but love the game so much do all our testing for us, we can't be bothered to get it right before we let you have the game.

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In FM 2011 I can ask, let's say, Puyol to tutor Muniesa. But I cannot tell Muniesa to imitate Puyol. It was possible in previous versions. Why isn't it available in FM11? I think it would be very useful.

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In FM10 you asked the youngster to learn from a tutor ... in FM11 you ask a tutor to teach a youngster. You were never able to do both. The end result is the same though.

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Interpreted... Can you lot that don't get paid but love the game so much do all our testing for us, we can't be bothered to get it right before we let you have the game.

lol, love that comment...

It's funny how quickly everyone jumps on board with that concept too.

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One thing that bugs me - say I want Dani Pacheco tutored by a senior member of the squad. Whether that be Torres, Kuyt or Gerrard... it doesn't matter to me. I have to cycle through the players until I find one that can tutor him.

I think the old style of tutoring used to be easier, where you'd select a player for the youngster to learn from rather than the other way around.

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One thing that bugs me - say I want Dani Pacheco tutored by a senior member of the squad. Whether that be Torres, Kuyt or Gerrard... it doesn't matter to me. I have to cycle through the players until I find one that can tutor him.

I think the old style of tutoring used to be easier, where you'd select a player for the youngster to learn from rather than the other way around.

Come to think of it, you're spot on. I totally agree.

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It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

E.g. I can't get De Gea to be tutored by van der Sar and Khondogbia to be tutored by Hargreaves/Fletcher.

I hope SI does not severely curtailed a brilliant feature for isolated cases of unrealism.

After all it's a game and tutoring is fun as it allows for some level of user control over randomly generated personalities of newgens.

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Jack Rodwell is not tutored, he will remain the 'Fairly Ambitious' personality he is described as in the first season, instead of becoming the Determined Def Midfielder many might want him to be.

Pretty sure you are going wrong there, it will change with his reputation.

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Pretty sure you are going wrong there, it will change with his reputation.

Ambition does not improve with time without tutoring.

Determination does not improve without tutoring, unless they perform badly and you discipline them - which means this relies on bad form for increase in attributes..like wth?

As said we are most definitely looking into this, cheers.

Cheers for your input. At least now we don't feel like we are talking to a brick wall lol

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As said we are most definitely looking into this, cheers.

Cheers for your input. At least now we don't feel like we are talking to a brick wall lol

yes definitely, the important is that it's under review.

what I don't understand is: tutoring as it is now, is it like it was supposed to be or is it somehow broken/not working?

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Pretty sure you are going wrong there, it will change with his reputation.

I'm absolutely sure, you're wrong about this one mate. :)

Player personalities have little to do with reputation. They are governed by a combination of hidden attributes for each player, along with Determination.

Updated Personality types list for FM10.3, based on Lyssien's research made for an earlier version of FM:

Positive Personality types:

Ambitious: Ambition = 16-19 & Loyalty < 10.

Born Leader: Influence = 20 & Determination = 20. Age needs to be 23+

Determined: Determination = 18-19 & Ambition >9.

Driven: Determination = 20 & Ambition > 9.

Fairly Ambitious: (Ambition = 15) or (Ambition = 16-20 & Loyalty >9).

Fairly Professional: (Professionalism = 15-17) or (Professionalism = 18-20 & Temperament < 10).

Iron Willed: Pressure = 20 & Determination > 14.

Jovial: Pressure > 14 & Temperament > 9 & Professionalism < 11

Leader: (Influence = 19) or (Influence = 20 & Determination < 20).

Light-Hearted: Sportsmanship > 14 & Pressure > 14 & Determination > 9 & Temperament > 9.

Model Citizen: Determination > 17 & Ambition > 17 & Loyalty > 17 & Pressure > 17 & Professionalism > 17 & Temperament > 17 & Sportsmanship > 17.

Model Professional: Professionalism = 20 & Temperament > 9.

Professional: Professionalism = 18-19 & Temperament > 9.

Perfectionist: Ambition > 17 & Professionalism > 17 & Determination > 17 & Temperament < 10

Resilient: Pressure = 17-19 & Determination > 14.

Resolute: Determination = 15-17 & Professionalism = 15-17.

Spirited: Pressure > 14 & Professionalism = 11-17 & Temperament > 9.

Very Ambitious: Ambition = 20 & Loyalty < 10.

Negative Personality types:

Casual: Professionalism = 2-4 & Determination < 10.

Devoted: Loyalty = 20 & Ambition = 6-7 & 'Likes team' rating 100+

Easily Discouraged: Determination = 1 & Ambition < 10

Low Determination: Determination = 2-5 & Ambition < 10

Low Self-Belief: Pressure = 2-3 & Determination < 10.

Loyal: Loyalty = 18-19 & Ambition = 6-7

Slack: Professionalism = 1 & Determination < 10.

Spineless: Pressure = 1 & Determination < 10.

Temperamental: Temperament = 1-4.

Unambitious: Ambition < 6 & Loyalty > 10

Unsporting: Sportsmanship = 1 & Determination > 10

Very Loyal: Loyal = 20 & Ambition = 6-7

Neutral Personality types:

Balanced: none of the rest

Fairly Determined: (Determination = 15-17) or (Determination = 18-20 & Ambition < 10).

Fairly Loyal: (Loyalty = 15-17) or (Loyalty = 18-20 & Ambition = 8-14).

Fairly Sporting: Sportsmanship = 15-17.

Honest: Sportsmanship = 20 & Determination < 10

Realist: Sportsmanship = 2-4 & Determination > 10

Sporting: Sportsmanship = 18-19 & Determination < 10

Often, a player may be eligible to be described by more than one personality descriptions. In this case, you are still going to see only one description. As a rule, Professional> Determined> Realist> Resilient> Light-Hearted> Spirited> Resolute> Jovial. What is to the lft, takes precedence. This means that if a player is both Realist and Spirited, in the game he is going to be described as "Realist".

Media Handling type

As part of the process, I wanted to find out if there was any way to guess the other hidden stats of the players, besides the one or two normally shown through the Personality Type. I found that the Media Handling Type can be used also, though it doesn't always tell you all you need to know. But after extensively checking various types in Genie Scout, I think I have found the stats that govern each of the Media Types:

Volatile: Temperament 3-6

Reserved: Controversy < 5 & Professionalism > 14 & Temperament > 6

Unflappable: Pressure > 14 & Temperament > 14

Evasive: Pressure > 14 & Professionalism > 14 & Controversy < 15

Short-tempered: Temperament < 3

Confrontational: Sportsmanship < 8 & Temperament < 8

Outspoken: Controversy > 14

Media-Friendly: Controversy < 15

Level-Headed: Controversy < 15 & Loyalty > 10 & Temperament > 6 & (Sportmanship > 11 or Professionalism > 12)

So it seems that you would want 'Reserved', 'Unflappable' and 'Evasive' mainly, as they have good Professionalism scores. 'Level-headed' is ok too as it means most scores are at least average. 'Media-friendly' seems to be a bit like 'Balanced' Personality type, in that all you know is that Controversy is not too high. But other stats could still be low.

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You bring up a separate point that I've been trying to get across for a while now. lol

What exactly is the reason for making these complicated formula for a one line personality description? Are we meant to memorise these things or are we just not even meant to take notice of this?

It would be SO much better if the personality section was a bit fleshed out to properly explain all parts that make up the personality. And the description should become more and more detailed and accurate as you spend more time with them.

I mean, day in and day out you spend time with your players for like 5 years and all you know about their personality is "fairly determined. unflappable"

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You bring up a separate point that I've been trying to get across for a while now. lol

What exactly is the reason for making these complicated formula for a one line personality description? Are we meant to memorise these things or are we just not even meant to take notice of this?

It would be SO much better if the personality section was a bit fleshed out to properly explain all parts that make up the personality. And the description should become more and more detailed and accurate as you spend more time with them.

I mean, day in and day out you spend time with your players for like 5 years and all you know about their personality is "fairly determined. unflappable"

I agree totally about needed better representation of the Hidden attributes. Having one Personality and 1-3 Media Handling Types don't always give you any indication of what the player is. Balanced/Media-Friendly just says that he does not hit any of the extremes, but it gives you absolutely NO indication of whether his Ambition score is 6 or 14 ... and that is a mighty big gap.

Also the list above (which seems to have been taken from my FM10 tutoring thread ;)) is the work of forumites countless hours of editor testing to figure that out ... again one important area that SI has been less than helpful in understanding.

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You bring up a separate point that I've been trying to get across for a while now. lol

What exactly is the reason for making these complicated formula for a one line personality description? Are we meant to memorise these things or are we just not even meant to take notice of this?

It would be SO much better if the personality section was a bit fleshed out to properly explain all parts that make up the personality. And the description should become more and more detailed and accurate as you spend more time with them.

I mean, day in and day out you spend time with your players for like 5 years and all you know about their personality is "fairly determined. unflappable"

I agree totally about needed better representation of the Hidden attributes. Having one Personality and 1-3 Media Handling Types don't always give you any indication of what the player is. Balanced/Media-Friendly just says that he does not hit any of the extremes, but it gives you absolutely NO indication of whether his Ambition score is 6 or 14 ... and that is a mighty big gap.

Also the list above (which seems to have been taken from my FM10 tutoring thread ;)) is the work of forumites countless hours of editor testing to figure that out ... again one important area that SI has been less than helpful in understanding.

Yes, it's a separate point totally, but makes sense nonetheless. Most people on the forum would not take the pains to find this list, and even less would actually care to read through the whole thing. While the current setup isn't really a disaster, a major overhaul is needed from SI in terms of their User Interface and interpretation of these 'Hidden Attributes'.

@StormenDK: Well, first of all thanks for making the list. I posted a link to your thread in one of my earlier posts on this thread itself, but people have a habit of posting without reading first, so had to post the material right here for them to read. Hope you don't mind. Cheers!

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Yes, it's a separate point totally, but makes sense nonetheless. Most people on the forum would not take the pains to find this list, and even less would actually care to read through the whole thing. While the current setup isn't really a disaster, a major overhaul is needed from SI in terms of their User Interface and interpretation of these 'Hidden Attributes'.

@StormenDK: Well, first of all thanks for making the list. I posted a link to your thread in one of my earlier posts on this thread itself, but people have a habit of posting without reading first, so had to post the material right here for them to read. Hope you don't mind. Cheers!

No problem ... just thought it looked mighty familiar :D

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You bring up a separate point that I've been trying to get across for a while now. lol

What exactly is the reason for making these complicated formula for a one line personality description? Are we meant to memorise these things or are we just not even meant to take notice of this?

It would be SO much better if the personality section was a bit fleshed out to properly explain all parts that make up the personality. And the description should become more and more detailed and accurate as you spend more time with them.

I mean, day in and day out you spend time with your players for like 5 years and all you know about their personality is "fairly determined. unflappable"

I suggested a few weeks ago that the game should have "more personality" - so you might describe Rooney as "Determined, ambitious, controversial and driven".

I also suggested we go one further and not make personality attributes hidden. Does Fergie, for example, honestly not know his players' personalities inside-out? He should know which players are slightly more ambitious than others, for example - but if these players are merely "fairly ambitious", that doesn't help. Do we really need to hide players' personalities - seriously? There's nothing mysterious or unknown about a player's personality (at least for extreme cases - i.e. attribute < 5 or attribute > 15) - so do we really need to hide it? Otherwise you may as well think your players are coming into training with black curtains around their faces so you can't see what their personalities are like.

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I suggested a few weeks ago that the game should have "more personality" - so you might describe Rooney as "Determined, ambitious, controversial and driven".

I also suggested we go one further and not make personality attributes hidden. Does Fergie, for example, honestly not know his players' personalities inside-out? He should know which players are slightly more ambitious than others, for example - but if these players are merely "fairly ambitious", that doesn't help. Do we really need to hide players' personalities - seriously? There's nothing mysterious or unknown about a player's personality (at least for extreme cases - i.e. attribute < 5 or attribute > 15) - so do we really need to hide it? Otherwise you may as well think your players are coming into training with black curtains around their faces so you can't see what their personalities are like.

Excatly ... and you could make it so the personalities are vague for some unknown player you signed on a whim from the Belgium 3rd. division .. and as he plays and you get more familiar with him, his "hidden" personalities starts to show. That way you could still scout him, and think, heeyy "Ambitious" .. good I'll hire him .. and then later find out that his Sportsmanship sucks, his Pressure is rock-bottom, but at least he is highly controversial :)

I mean without scouting, the personality is hidden ... but his media handling types are fully shown ... so it is hard consistent right now.

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...Does Fergie, for example, honestly not know his players' personalities inside-out? He should know which players are slightly more ambitious than others, for example - but if these players are merely "fairly ambitious", that doesn't help...

From day one, either when he came to the club or the player arrives...No, he didn't. He has(d) to get to know each one, in turn. Only over time does he get to know them, only through day-to-day interaction does he learn what motivates and drives them to succeed.

Which is precisely what FM wants us to do. Thing is, FM is a pretty poor simulator of inter-personal relationships. SI's trying to make it better, but will never achieve the level of intimacy possible between a real manager and his players. So...a few "cheats" are needed.

I hear you, though. Saying we need more "cheats" than we're getting. I don't entirely disagree, just that maybe they need to be brought out slowly, depending on how many times we single them out in TeamTalks or Chat them up. OTOH, that's what the notebook is for. Did Striker Joe become nervous when you "Disappointed" him for his 5.8 first-half? Put it in your Notes (SI might say), so you know to "Encourage" him on another day...

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From day one, either when he came to the club or the player arrives...No, he didn't. He has(d) to get to know each one, in turn. Only over time does he get to know them, only through day-to-day interaction does he learn what motivates and drives them to succeed.

Which is precisely what FM wants us to do. Thing is, FM is a pretty poor simulator of inter-personal relationships. SI's trying to make it better, but will never achieve the level of intimacy possible between a real manager and his players. So...a few "cheats" are needed.

That has little to do with personality, though. Over time, we gain very little knowledge of a player's personality except vague hints (i.e. how he reacts to a high training workload).

I agree a manager will only know a player better over time, but a player's personality is reduced to one or two words and doesn't change much (unless tutored and this is successful).

I hear you, though. Saying we need more "cheats" than we're getting. I don't entirely disagree, just that maybe they need to be brought out slowly, depending on how many times we single them out in TeamTalks or Chat them up. OTOH, that's what the notebook is for. Did Striker Joe become nervous when you "Disappointed" him for his 5.8 first-half? Put it in your Notes (SI might say), so you know to "Encourage" him on another day...

Again, less to do with personality, this.

----

My pet peeve has to be players who have a personality of (Fairly/Very) determined - I can bloody see this from their attributes!

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