(disproved on page 2) Finaly proved it, the game engine is bogus

[Michael Osmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brian Rømer:

Well, pardon me for posting something that might have been posted already (just cant read all the posts - too many of them).

But to me its obvious that changing the team rep. will affect the results. Here is my formular - its not Einstein, but still:

5 star player wants to play in 5 star club. If 5 star player plays in 1 star club, he will want to leave. And he probably has some "leave clause" and if he doesnt he will not give 100% on the field.

So a one star club with five star players will either lose the players or see them play bad. What if Cristiano Ronaldo had to play for Accrington or some club like that? would he want to leave? I think so.

If the club has players that are not motivated or lost their players, of course the club will not win games.

To me, that is not a bug, but a simple piece of reality.

With this said, if the rep. itself, by keeping the players, have an effect, then it is a problem. But it doesnt seem like it though.

I play with Man Utd and I tried beating Liverpool 4-0, but I also lost to Reading by 2-0 (one of my 5 defeats in two seasons sofar). To me that is realistic and I will not stop playing the most brilliant game ever made.

Thanks SI for making this superb game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brian, is that you!!! My old buddy? Remember Cyanide Game Center? Your name sounds very familiar to my ears

[Brian Rømer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Michael Osmann:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brian Rømer:

Well, pardon me for posting something that might have been posted already (just cant read all the posts - too many of them).

But to me its obvious that changing the team rep. will affect the results. Here is my formular - its not Einstein, but still:

5 star player wants to play in 5 star club. If 5 star player plays in 1 star club, he will want to leave. And he probably has some "leave clause" and if he doesnt he will not give 100% on the field.

So a one star club with five star players will either lose the players or see them play bad. What if Cristiano Ronaldo had to play for Accrington or some club like that? would he want to leave? I think so.

If the club has players that are not motivated or lost their players, of course the club will not win games.

To me, that is not a bug, but a simple piece of reality.

With this said, if the rep. itself, by keeping the players, have an effect, then it is a problem. But it doesnt seem like it though.

I play with Man Utd and I tried beating Liverpool 4-0, but I also lost to Reading by 2-0 (one of my 5 defeats in two seasons sofar). To me that is realistic and I will not stop playing the most brilliant game ever made.

Thanks SI for making this superb game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brian, is that you!!! My old buddy? Remember Cyanide Game Center? Your name sounds very familiar to my ears </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, that is me. Cyanide Game Center rule...d!! I know its not a personals forum, but hope you are doing good there?

Been a long time

[Michael Osmann]

@Brian

Sorry guys in danish

Ja, for dælen da - det er længe siden. Nok 4 år

Det går fint. Arbejder som socialrådgiver i Århus Kommune. Havde du nogensinde troet at Jeg skulle hjælpe andre mennesker med deres problemer *LOL*

Hvad med dig, opholder dig stadigvæk på djævleøen? Og man er nom blevet chef hva'! hehe

[Brian Rømer]

Sorry about the danish too, guys:

Ja, det havde man jo ikke troet LOL. Tja, chef er jo sådan et taknemmeligt ord, men jeg har da i hvert fald ansvaret for en afdeling som står for salgskoordinering og markedsføring, samt firmaets website, så det...

Sq godt at høre fra dig igen. Håber at alt er ok og at du stadig er sammen med kæresten.

Og Lasse lever også, han leverer vistnok stadigvæk lidt grafik til Cycling Manager?

Jeg har ikke haft noget med Cyanide at gøre siden den gang. Spiller heller ikke CyM længere.

Anyways, tales. Evt. drop en pm så kunne vi fortsætte på MSN ved lejlighed.

[gubbs]

Arghhh, I'm blind!

[Jopo12]

Originally posted by RSCA4Ever:

Thanks for testing good to see it doesn't affect the league i play in, so i am very happy for that, because when i first saw this thread i felt a bit disappointed if games would had been decided by reps.

/QUOTE]

Well as far as I have been trying things out those "reps" are very much what decides matches. Just find yourselves a opponent which is nearly impossible to beat and alter both team reputations and watch the rival succumb to defeat, given that you put your own rep up and opponent's down. This effects media etc. too, which isn't a big deal but still I think it's somehow weird.

And then you could debate whether that "quick" match engine or whatever is enough to disturb the game. I personally don't find it very much of an annoyance if teams are performing differently and by different attributes whether the league is active or not. But maybe it eats some atmosphere when a team like Chelsea beats everything on and off the field and then you look closely and see only mediocre players performing superbly and them buying expensive players without money etc. as they only have an great reputation. When it is going to drop anyways? Or isn't it adjusting at all as game doesn't give too much about it? The samish thing I wondered once as I changed Barcelona's status to a semi-pro team and watched their superstars value going down, just because they were semi-professional team playing in La Liga and with those stars. Well it really doesn't associate in here that much but there will be doubters like me, not in this particular case but others until proven otherwise . But nothing is ever developing without little sceptism every now and then .

[SurvivorSoso88]

Thanks for the effort arfaern,but I can't say that I'm surprised...we all knew that SI was cheating in some way and this is just how they do it...I would like to see someone crack the game engine so that another diablo appears...Not because I want to cheat but because with this game engine you need about 30 shots to score a goal,oh and the opponent needs about 2 to score just as much...

[neil220779]

might be worth a "bump"

[neil220779]

oops, never noticed it was 3 pages long, though it was just one

[Michael Osmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brian Rømer:

Sorry about the danish too, guys:

Ja, det havde man jo ikke troet LOL. Tja, chef er jo sådan et taknemmeligt ord, men jeg har da i hvert fald ansvaret for en afdeling som står for salgskoordinering og markedsføring, samt firmaets website, så det...

Sq godt at høre fra dig igen. Håber at alt er ok og at du stadig er sammen med kæresten.

Og Lasse lever også, han leverer vistnok stadigvæk lidt grafik til Cycling Manager?

Jeg har ikke haft noget med Cyanide at gøre siden den gang. Spiller heller ikke CyM længere.

Anyways, tales. Evt. drop en pm så kunne vi fortsætte på MSN ved lejlighed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

@ Brian Rømer

Man ka' vist ikke sende PM her på Sigames' forum Her er min MSN adresse michael@osmann.dk.

Har hellere ikke spillet Cycling Manager siden vi havde CGC. Gider sgu ikke det mere. FM er meget bedre Desuden er jeg ikke sammen med hende der mere. Poppa er blevet en bachlor igen. Kommune-tøserne bliver sgu straffet herfra *LOL*

[bRAzIL]

eh?

[Michael Osmann]

That's freakin danish Not a beauty but speakable *lol*

[eXistenZ]

To me it look like a funny form of my own language: dutch

[aenariel]

To sum this up, I'd like to have a new option,

"Run every match in full if team is from country *X*".

That'd include national teams as well as clubs, in every competition. That way, if we're running, say, Iceland, FM would play full matches for any national Icelandic team (under-21 and under-19 anyone?) as well as Icelandic teams playing in european competitions.

Would LOVE to see this done.

[aenariel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aenariel:

To sum this up, I'd like to have a new option,

"Run every match in full if team is from country *X*".

That'd include national teams as well as clubs, in every competition. That way, if we're running, say, Iceland, FM would play full matches for any national Icelandic team (under-21 and under-19 anyone?) as well as Icelandic teams playing in european competitions.

Would LOVE to see this done. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because, yea, if other teams in my league perform well/badly in other competitions, it DOES affect my team. And if the national team performs badly, even if I don't have a player performing in it, it still can indirectly affect me.

[Greg Andrade]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sad Git:

I'm somewhat unconvinced by Miles' argument that the background match engine "doesn't affect the user in any way". Of course it does, EVERYTHING in the game affects the user! Anything that means the game world isn't being convincingly rendered can potentially cause problems down the line. You might take over a club in a background league, and switch the league into the foreground. You might sign a player based on his performances in a background league. You might play against clubs that have been promoted or relegated from a background division. I can think of literally dozens of other examples.

Call me stupid but I don't quite understand why the background match engine uses team Reputation to calculate results. Why not use squad CA? I don't honestly see why it should take any longer that way, and it's overwhelmingly the players that decide the outcomes of football matches, Reputation counts for nothing. (See England, Newcastle, Spurs, etc etc.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brilliant post. I'd like to see a response from Miles about this, but maybe he thinks the "disproving" has already been done and there is no issue remaining. Clearly there is a HUGE issue if match results around the globe are being determined based on reputation. I agree with the idea of match results being based on CA.

[blab]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thus in Italy, Spain and France the champion will be one of the top teams despite them having somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league.

Is this correct? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm in 2021, and for the last 5 years Serie A looked like this:

Year 1st - 2nd - 3rd

2017 Inter - AC Milan - Atalanta

2018 Inter - Juventus - Reggina

2019 Reggina - Lazio - AC Milan

2020 Lazio - Reggina - AC Milan

2021 Reggina - Lazio - Juventus

In 5 seasons, Reggina managed to win 2 titles, finish 2nd, 3rd and 7th. So the top teams are not always champions, at least not in my game.

[blab]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blab:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thus in Italy, Spain and France the champion will be one of the top teams despite them having somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league.

Is this correct? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm in 2021, and for the last 5 years Serie A looked like this:

Year 1st - 2nd - 3rd

2017 Inter - AC Milan - Atalanta

2018 Inter - Juventus - Reggina

2019 Reggina - Lazio - AC Milan

2020 Lazio - Reggina - AC Milan

2021 Reggina - Lazio - Juventus

In 5 seasons, Reggina managed to win 2 titles, finish 2nd, 3rd and 7th. So the top teams are not always champions, at least not in my game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forgot to mention that the EPL is the only league on full detail in my game, Serie A is not.

[muncherdave]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MixitupMixitdictator:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Must add, regardless of this and other "issues". I find FM2008 totally playable and thoroughly addictive and entertaining. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree with this, but one thing i have too say i have a problem with the next patch is due for Feb. The game has been released nigh on 5months by the time we get this and it's only another 7/8 months before the new game comes out. This too me is unacceptable, nearly as much incomplete game time as complete game time.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely you mean 4 months

[aenariel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Greg Andrade:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sad Git:

I'm somewhat unconvinced by Miles' argument that the background match engine "doesn't affect the user in any way". Of course it does, EVERYTHING in the game affects the user! Anything that means the game world isn't being convincingly rendered can potentially cause problems down the line. You might take over a club in a background league, and switch the league into the foreground. You might sign a player based on his performances in a background league. You might play against clubs that have been promoted or relegated from a background division. I can think of literally dozens of other examples.

Call me stupid but I don't quite understand why the background match engine uses team Reputation to calculate results. Why not use squad CA? I don't honestly see why it should take any longer that way, and it's overwhelmingly the players that decide the outcomes of football matches, Reputation counts for nothing. (See England, Newcastle, Spurs, etc etc.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brilliant post. I'd like to see a response from Miles about this, but maybe he thinks the "disproving" has already been done and there is no issue remaining. Clearly there is a HUGE issue if match results around the globe are being determined based on reputation. I agree with the idea of match results being based on CA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Mirrork]

what surprises me the most is, that whenever(well at least in 80% of the cases) an issue is discovered by many players, SI runs a test or whatsoever or disapproves it with a theory...

...but what is the point if many users still have this issue and SI(however they may run the tests)doesnt have them?

this is too much politics like when the current government talks about his achievements in the actual period...everything is purple, rainbows and pink bunnys everywhere...

[sten_super]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mirrork:

what surprises me the most is, that whenever(well at least in 80% of the cases) an issue is discovered by many players, SI runs a test or whatsoever or disapproves it with a theory...

...but what is the point if many users still have this issue and SI(however they may run the tests)doesnt have them?

this is too much politics like when the current government talks about his achievements in the actual period...everything is purple, rainbows and pink bunnys everywhere... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What 'issue' being described here do many users have? You frequently move players from a Premiership club to a League 1 club and vice versa? The theory was that reputation was almost the sole determinant of results in matches; SI proved this wasn't the case when the matches are run in full detail.

Experiments like this are fundamentally flawed anyway. I'm having this discussion with someone in the Bugs forum at the moment, but I'll have it here as well.

Reputation, as viewed in game, is a number that is derived somehow from a combination of factors i) league achievements ii) cup achievements and iii) player reputation. I am going to assume for the sake of my argument that player reputation is directly proportional to player ability i.e. the better a player is ability-wise the higher his reputation (not strictly true but it is generally).

The game, it would seem, when calculating matches in reduced detail, uses reputation as a measure of team ability. This makes sense, as it is a measure of team achievements and player reputation (which I have said above, is a measure of player ability). HOWEVER, when someone uses the editor to manually set the reputation, this throws out the relationship. Reputation is no longer an accurate measure of player ability or team ability. This is a situation that can only be created by the user, by use of an editor of some kind. It is not something that will happen in game, as any fluctuation in player ability, or team achievement, will filter through into an adjustment in the reputation of the team.

I hope that makes sense, but fear it probably won't. It makes sense to me at least!

[Jopo12]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sten_super:

The game, it would seem, when calculating matches in reduced detail, uses reputation as a measure of team ability. This makes sense, as it is a measure of team achievements and player reputation (which I have said above, is a measure of player ability). HOWEVER, when someone uses the editor to manually set the reputation, this throws out the relationship. Reputation is no longer an accurate measure of player ability or team ability. This is a situation that can only be created by the user, by use of an editor of some kind. It is not something that will happen in game, as any fluctuation in player ability, or team achievement, will filter through into an adjustment in the reputation of the team. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So are people really thinking that there can not be a situation where team reputation and their ability wouldn't match that nicely? You do realize that the game works the same way in every situation? It doesn't see whether it is edited and bizarre or possible and sensible. And more the game strays to the way of these "unrealistic" situations, the more it will work wrongly. I don't want AI to score even only one goal which is based on FM looking at reputations. Maybe not a big difference but it still isn't right.

And as the reputation based on team ability, can you explain and prove that if Man Utd wielded their young team in CL, would they suffer too much from their lack of skills or would their clearly world class reputation compensate? As sten_super seemed to admit that edited situations could result in incorrect happenings, how it differs from playing your worst players and winning if your reputation is the best in the world? To disprove that you'd have to completely prove that reputations doesn't matter, but as I am considered they will, and to the match happenings. It seems they even modify how striker are able to shoot the barn door, for what I've experienced. Or then it's just me imagining but somebody tell me then I am wrong.