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kingjericho

Physical attributes shouldn't be influenced by Current Ability

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I'm presenting this as a question/remark. Some attributes shouldn't be influenced by a player's current ability, because they don't require the player to be top class to be able to have those attributes high.

More precisely, I'm talking about physical attributes. Most people know Fábio Paim, a never-to-become portuguese football star, who was (and still is) a right winger. He was notable for his pace and technique. Nowadays, he is "dead", playing in the portuguese fourth level at Torreense, and his CA is adequate for a level 4 player. But why does that have to mean that his pace can't be more than 11?

A portuguese data researcher said that in the editor he has 14 for pace, but due to his low CA, the game automatically decreases it to 11. With this, I'm not saying that Paim should have 14. He's fat and out of form, but this was an illustrative example.

Now, Usain Bolt said that we would like to try pro football. If he did try, and if he was really bad, then what, he had a low CA so his acceleration and pace had to decrase to values like 12???

I think that this can be applied to most physical attributes, like pace, acceleration, strength, jumping, stamina and natural fitness.

I'm saying this because I think that this auto-adjusting made by the editor may affect some players in the lower leagues, and maybe they are even very accurate in the editor, but then that gets lost in the game.

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I don't agree with this as how will the physical atts be controlled. Whats gonna stop me from getting a 202020202020 Physicals player by training.

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In a way I agree as someone's physicality should not be affected by their footballing ability. However Ishu is also right that training up to 20/20/20 is possible. In an ideal world the physical attributes would have their own rating system away from the CA/PA for the other stats but until this happens (indeed if it can) then the way it is has to stand.

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I thought players can have high physical attributes and low everything else. If the attributes are capped because of CA, then it seems pretty obvious to increase the CA, not make physical attributes CA free.

btw, I think most people have NO idea who Fabio Paim is.

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I don't agree with this as how will the physical atts be controlled. Whats gonna stop me from getting a 202020202020 Physicals player by training.

He didnt say that. He said that a players physical stats shouldnt be penalized by the difference between PA/CA. Anyone can stay in top shape.

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One thing that can be done is that Physical can be disassociated with CA & Training. Physicals automatically grow with age and decline after 30.

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I would like separate CA/PA for the three groups of attributes; C/P TA, C/P MA and C/P PA. In that way maybe 20/20/20...- situation could be solved in the same way CA/PA works now. Also a basic CA would be CTA+CMA+CPA / 3, same for PA. Maybe in the future a system similar to my idea make it in the game, I think it would be more in depth but also more resources from your system (CPU+RAM).

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He didnt say that. He said that a players physical stats shouldnt be penalized by the difference between PA/CA. Anyone can stay in top shape.

How will this work in game then??

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I thought players can have high physical attributes and low everything else. If the attributes are capped because of CA, then it seems pretty obvious to increase the CA, not make physical attributes CA free.

btw, I think most people have NO idea who Fabio Paim is.

I recognised the name, think he was a good prospect a few FM's ago (maybe as far back as the CM days)

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How will this work in game then??

Like the OP said, this guy has a PA of 14 pace but, due to the difference between his CA/PA the game rates him as 11. Unless he is injured or unfit, shouldnt the game give him his full pace and other physical attributes?

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An idea that was floated about a few versions back was a separate CA/PA for each section of attributes

So 1 for Mental, 1 for Technique and 1 for Physical

A variation of that idea could be a possible solution

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An idea that was floated about a few versions back was a separate CA/PA for each section of attributes

So 1 for Mental, 1 for Technique and 1 for Physical

A variation of that idea could be a possible solution

I agree. Failed prospects usually fail for 1 of those 3 reasons. It would also be interesting if mental abilities were somewhat dynamic. Lets say a young man of 19 loses his drive to play the game. He matures and at 22 rediscovers the passion. His CA should adapt to his new attitude.

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Technically you don't need CA as it's a weighted average...

However, CA is meant to fit the attributes, not the other way round. Sometimes CA has to come down and the attributes have to go down as a result, but then again that's just the very few Walcotts in game.

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Like the OP said, this guy has a PA of 14 pace but, due to the difference between his CA/PA the game rates him as 11. Unless he is injured or unfit, shouldnt the game give him his full pace and other physical attributes?

Oh OK. That not got to do with CA/PA difference. The CA needed for 14 pace is more than his given CA. PA doesn't matter here.

He just wants that the game should obey the editor. AFAIK It does gives a priority to physicals.

Thanks for clearing that up anyway. :thup:

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An idea that was floated about a few versions back was a separate CA/PA for each section of attributes

So 1 for Mental, 1 for Technique and 1 for Physical

A variation of that idea could be a possible solution

I do sort of like that idea, but I can't see it working. It's hard enough to judge how good a player could be in the future. How are researchers supposed to judge how good he is in mental, technical and physical areas seperately?

I don't think there's anything especially wrong with the current CA system, tbh. A fast player is a better player than a player who is identical to him in every attribute bar pace and acceleration, in which he's much lower. Likewise, if one centre back has higher jumping than an otherwise identical centre back, he's a better player, and should therefore have a higher CA. IMO, the problem is with the research system and the match engine.

The match engine has never been able to quite balance physical attributes (especially pace) against technical and mental attributes. They are too powerful. Therefore, to stop players performing far too well for a player of their CA, physical attributes take up a lot of CA.

Simultaneously, to save time, researchers compare players and team based largely on CA/avg. CA. This quickly shows whether a team is overrated compared to another. Attributes aren't looked at so much. If a researcher has put in the values he genuinely feels a player should have, but that player's CA doesn't fit with his team mates, or other players in the league, he'll have to lower some of the attributes to make the CA fit. One example is Jimmy Kébé, the Reading winger. He's one of the very fastest footballers in the world, certainly in England, but he can't have pace 20 because the approximate CA of a leading Championship player is 135. Last season, Kébé was in the same side as Gylfi Sigurdsson, the best player in the Championship. Sigurdsson had a CA right at the top end, so in order for Reading's team avg. CA to be right, Kébé's couldn't be. In turn, so that his technicals and mentals could be nearly right, his pace had to come down.

Therefore, I propose the following system:

  • Researchers given the ability to calculate "CA points spent on physical attributes". I think they may be able to.
  • When researchers compare squads, they should say "avg. CA 120, of which avg. 50 points were spent on physical attributes". This would show that researchers weren't necessary overrating their players, but had to bump the CAs up to accommodate physically strong players.

The effect would be the same, but it would probably be much easier for the researchers.

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I do sort of like that idea, but I can't see it working. It's hard enough to judge how good a player could be in the future. How are researchers supposed to judge how good he is in mental, technical and physical areas seperately?

I don't think there's anything especially wrong with the current CA system, tbh. A fast player is a better player than a player who is identical to him in every attribute bar pace and acceleration, in which he's much lower. Likewise, if one centre back has higher jumping than an otherwise identical centre back, he's a better player, and should therefore have a higher CA. IMO, the problem is with the research system and the match engine.

The match engine has never been able to quite balance physical attributes (especially pace) against technical and mental attributes. They are too powerful. Therefore, to stop players performing far too well for a player of their CA, physical attributes take up a lot of CA.

Simultaneously, to save time, researchers compare players and team based largely on CA/avg. CA. This quickly shows whether a team is overrated compared to another. Attributes aren't looked at so much. If a researcher has put in the values he genuinely feels a player should have, but that player's CA doesn't fit with his team mates, or other players in the league, he'll have to lower some of the attributes to make the CA fit. One example is Jimmy Kébé, the Reading winger. He's one of the very fastest footballers in the world, certainly in England, but he can't have pace 20 because the approximate CA of a leading Championship player is 135. Last season, Kébé was in the same side as Gylfi Sigurdsson, the best player in the Championship. Sigurdsson had a CA right at the top end, so in order for Reading's team avg. CA to be right, Kébé's couldn't be. In turn, so that his technicals and mentals could be nearly right, his pace had to come down.

Therefore, I propose the following system:

  • Researchers given the ability to calculate "CA points spent on physical attributes". I think they may be able to.
  • When researchers compare squads, they should say "avg. CA 120, of which avg. 50 points were spent on physical attributes". This would show that researchers weren't necessary overrating their players, but had to bump the CAs up to accommodate physically strong players.

The effect would be the same, but it would probably be much easier for the researchers.

You're along the right lines but some of that is not actually true.

We do have guidelines to work with which mean that a certain squad should have a certain average CA but it is not a hard and fast rule, so Kebe should have a CA befitting his ability and this will not be affected by Sigurdsson or anybody else. It may well be a case that if Reading (in this example) had an average CA that was well above the given band then questions would be asked but there may be other factors which led to a lower league finish than the quality of squad suggests.

Attributes are weighted depending on several factors including position. In Kebe's case, it is illogical to think that he is both at the top end of World football in terms of pace and highly proficent in other areas, otherwise, quite simply put he wouldn't be playing for Reading. This is where it is important to ensure that players strengths and weaknesses are highlighted and it is often easy to underestimate a weakness and defaulting to giving a '10' in an area that should perhaps be a '5'.

Researchers also have their own forum in which much discussion goes on over teams, players etc. Although we generally compare players by using the CA (which is the easiest and most accurate way when you consider each researcher is an expert on their own club but doesn't have the depth of knowledge on other teams players), a lot of researchers will also post screenshots of individuals in the squad which allows discussions on individual attributes and helps to balance the DB further.

Going back to the opening point, the game altering the players attributes is not to do with the difference between the players CA and PA. It is caused by the sum total of his attributes (including weightings) outweighing his CA, therefore (as this is not possible) compensation is made to bring the two into line. Unfortunately this will affect physical attributes and that will cause the player to look inaccurate in those areas, the solution would be to lower technical and mental attributes to the necessary levels to stop the game having to make these alterations, that way pace, acceleration etc can be portrayed accurately.

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Good info Andy, but surely it's not a trade-off that should have to happen? A player's physical fitness and attributes are things that can be controlled and changed much more than the technical, but at the moment this can't be done because of the way the weightings work. As has been said ideally you'd want to split the two (although I appreciate this may be difficult).

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This is something that I've complained about for a number of years across a number of different football games. FM probably has the best system of the lot of them but it's still far from ideal and I appreciate quite difficult to get right.

A player can have poor ability but still be really strong or fast and it's something you rarely see in FM. It's well known in those of us who player lower league games that if you can come across a guy who has a ton of pace it will more than make up for their lack of ability elsewhere, problem is this doesn't come up to often. I have no doubts that there are some players out there in lower leagues who are quicker than guys playing in top proffesional leagues but the game doesn't seem to represent this to well

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btw, I think most people have NO idea who Fabio Paim is.

Was on loan at Chelsea under Scolari iirc

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I completely agree, I've always found it frustrating that you can't have a lower league player who is very quick. Even in the example of Bebe (who I've just seen a screenshot of) his pace and accel was about 14/15, which is a solid attribute, but in reality he's probably quicker than players like Nani, Valencia etc but has a lower rating than them in these areas purely because he is undeveloped.

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You can have a lower league/young player who is very quick, but it stands to reason that his other attributes will be weak, otherwise he wouldn't be a lower league/young player he'd be a first teamer at a better club. It stands to reason that if you have both the physical tools along with the technical tools (in the correct areas) you'll be an effective footballer.

If all of the attributes are filled in then this can be controlled to ensure a players pace etc is correctly modelled in the game, provided you accept that he isn't going to be as proficent in other areas.

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Hmm but does that then mean that to ensure that the physical attributes are correct, the technical and mental attributes are handicapped to a greater extent (since physical attributes takes up so much CA per attribute),

resulting in lower league physically good players with below par footballing attributes?

So while we can accept that the fast lower league player should have his footballing attributes adjusted downwards, the amount of adjustment needed might be significant enough

to limit the viability of such a player overall.

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Hmm but does that then mean that to ensure that the physical attributes are correct, the technical and mental attributes are handicapped to a greater extent (since physical attributes takes up so much CA per attribute),

resulting in lower league physically good players with below par footballing attributes?

So while we can accept that the fast lower league player should have his footballing attributes adjusted downwards, the amount of adjustment needed might be significant enough

to limit the viability of such a player overall.

All of this is dependent on what position the player plays in. For a winger it is very realistic for his technical atributes to suffer badly, if he is in the lower leagues and has scary pace. Had to do it myself, as I believe my team have one of the fastest wingers in Britain, but the reason he is with us, his crossing etc. is only average at best. Thankfully for him, it is something that can be worked

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Hmm but does that then mean that to ensure that the physical attributes are correct, the technical and mental attributes are handicapped to a greater extent (since physical attributes takes up so much CA per attribute),

resulting in lower league physically good players with below par footballing attributes?

So while we can accept that the fast lower league player should have his footballing attributes adjusted downwards, the amount of adjustment needed might be significant enough

to limit the viability of such a player overall.

The weightings take care of that balance so in theory a player should be accurate in terms of how high his attributes can be in various areas depending on his CA. It may not work correctly for every single player in the db but it should provide an accurate balance for the vast majority.

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Going back to the opening point, the game altering the players attributes is not to do with the difference between the players CA and PA. It is caused by the sum total of his attributes (including weightings) outweighing his CA, therefore (as this is not possible) compensation is made to bring the two into line. Unfortunately this will affect physical attributes and that will cause the player to look inaccurate in those areas, the solution would be to lower technical and mental attributes to the necessary levels to stop the game having to make these alterations, that way pace, acceleration etc can be portrayed accurately.

So basically you're saying that it's the researchers who are not doing a good enough job of balancing their players regarding CA vs. attributes? And that the game then has to apply a balancing algorithm to keep things in order?

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So basically you're saying that it's the researchers who are not doing a good enough job of balancing their players regarding CA vs. attributes? And that the game then has to apply a balancing algorithm to keep things in order?

If the attributes and the CA don't fit, the game will make the alteration.

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Gain should be limited by professional, ambition and determination stats.

Jumping should be limited by height.

Strength, agility and balance by weight.

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I think that PA is the problem for me. The current system is very static, which in reality is not what happens. A development system could be implemented that identifies a players progress and sets them a current ability when generated and doesn't identify a PA until age 21. This gives the players much more time to develop and the potential for more gems unearthed stars at lower leagues.

Obviously make training and raising CA a bit harder so that there wasn't teams of 200CA players everywhere.

As an example, say you got a player who joined at 16 and was a CA of 95, through the right training, tutoring and game time at the various levels, by 21 he's a CA of 150, the game can calculate his development and potential and assign a PA thats proportional to his development over the past 5 years (raised 11 points per year). Suggest a ceiling for development at 23 so the player has another 22 points of PA, so his PA would be 172. Something like that.....maybe more complex though

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Gain should be limited by professional, ambition and determination stats.

Jumping should be limited by height.

Strength, agility and balance by weight.

*checks date*

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I think the root cause of this, as SCIAG mentioned, is that the engine still finds it difficult to balance physical attributes (esp pace & acceleration) vs technical & mental ones. My impression is that they are relatively more important in the match engine than in real life. Until this changes, we will always have less skillful players having lower physical stats than they should, because otherwise they will be too good, unless you make their technical skills well below reality.

For instance in Jimmy Kebe's example, if you give a championship level player 20/19 for pace/acceleration, and championship level other attributes, he will be as effective as an upper prem player. He would need to have league 1/league 2 level technical attributes to balance this off.

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So I should create another thread with the same topic?

The information in this thread is still relevant. So I'm replying to it (more correctly speaking, adding more opinions to this thread which is for expressing your opinions regarding linking of physical attributes and CA. And just now another guy gave another piece of important information as to why they have to be linked.)

Just like how some of the guys link that CA weighting table years old in another CA calculation thread. On that occasion however, the information wasn't relevant any more because things changed. Like there was no more free attributes.

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So I should create another thread with the same topic?

I don't see why not, since I'm sure that attributes/CA/PA would have been tweaked since FM2010. The ME is certainly different.

I'm not sure about the weight one, but the other two points you made already happen in the game.

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I think I agree. Physical (natural) condition are largely predetermined when a man is born. Henry runs much faster than Beckham, period, no reason. And the rest is to figure out the real pattern in which a man can improve his physical ability through training, so that everyone can improve, reasonably, in gym, or with fitness coach. But there's no chance for one to be able to go from 11 in pace to 16, or even 15.

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I don't see why not, since I'm sure that attributes/CA/PA would have been tweaked since FM2010. The ME is certainly different.

I'm not sure about the weight one, but the other two points you made already happen in the game.

I think you misunderstood what I said. I know how fast CA is developed is limited by professional, ambition and determination stats.

But maximum CA is actually limited by PA.

What I meant just now is that how much physical attributes you can add on to when the player was created is limited by professional, ambition and determination stats. Not tied to CA.

Then there should be another "hidden" attribute to limit the player's pace, and stamina. And add in the correlation between pace, weight and acceleration.

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Ok, fair enough, it looks like you did have something to add to the thread after all. Originally it just looked like you were bumping an old thread for the sake of it.

I still think it is worth starting new threads for things like this which may have been altered over the last four versions though.

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I think you misunderstood what I said. I know how fast CA is developed is limited by professional, ambition and determination stats.

But maximum CA is actually limited by PA.

What I meant just now is that how much physical attributes you can add on to when the player was created is limited by professional, ambition and determination stats. Not tied to CA.

Then there should be another "hidden" attribute to limit the player's pace, and stamina. And add in the correlation between pace, weight and acceleration.

Just a slight correction. Determination has nothing to do with development. It's kind of a unique attribute because it does factor in to a players personality and is also used by the match engine. However, professionalism and ambition are the only things used in a players development.

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