Is it time for Variable PA

[SiDolman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and who says that you can't be good at 160PA? i had a striker through my youth in the last FM. PA 163 but he was piling the goals in from all angles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agree, aguero's PA is not as superhuman as his goalscoring record suggests

[Mitja]

bongo-bongo you are wrong about your examplee.

you are talking about CA not PA. ability is why you were better in school.

potential exists but no one can see it. I don't know if you heard of Nikola Tesla he was one of the greatedt scientifics (physics, electricity). but in school he realy sucked at maths. so his teachers could thought he has no future in science...

why is wenger buying all those foreigners instead giving the chance to home grown youngsters. becouse their CA is better and in that age it means their potential is also better... so basicly CA=PA; becouse PA is smth that is in the future and only god knows it

you mightt have smth in your self that could lead you to be better then Maradona... only the problem is that you are not playing and it means you have low CA. so nobody is going to sign you and you will never become what you could...

[postal postie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SiDolman:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and who says that you can't be good at 160PA? i had a striker through my youth in the last FM. PA 163 but he was piling the goals in from all angles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agree, aguero's PA is not as superhuman as his goalscoring record suggests </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i have a winger called helder barbosa. his pa a few seasons in is 138. but his stats are amazing. he's got everything that you'd expect from a winger.

[leftback in the changing room]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

bongo-bongo you are wrong about your examplee.

you are talking about CA not PA. ability is why you were better in school. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, he is correct. I will endeavor to explain by the power of analogy:

One person has good grades, the other not so good. Assuming they are receiving exactly the same training tailored to their requirements (in this case, an education in the same class):

Bongo-Bongo (BB) has a PA of 150 and a CA of 135 - because he isn't working hard enough to max out his CA .

Friend of Bongo-Bongo (FoBB) Has a PA of 100 and CA of 99.

The argument often said on here - and the argument BB has brought up - is that because FoBB is in the same place as BB, his PA should be capable of increasing to 150. And as he is working hard, his CA would also increase to approx. 150.

However, it doesn't matter how hard FoBB works, he never caught up with BB. And his PA will never increase. Yes it seems unfair - but it's accurate. And this is what is reflected in FM.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">why is wenger buying all those foreigners instead giving the chance to home grown youngsters. becouse their CA is better and in that age it means their potential is also better... so basicly CA=PA; becouse PA is smth that is in the future and only god knows it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because they are:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Cheap (initially!)

<LI>Keen to move to England to have a much better life than they could achieve in their own countries

<LI>Most importantly - they are technically superior in many ways to young British players.

This is a little regarded fact but the upbringing, practise facilities and climate experienced by players varies around the world and generates youngsters with significantly different abilities. In in-game terms, young Enslish players will have lower technical statistics, but would more often than not have better physical attributes.

Many top coaches are on record stating that English youngsters are significantly less developed as footballers than African or European counterparts at the same age. Then again, you don't have to believe me - just read Gianluca Vialli's exceptional book "The Italian Job" where you will get quotes to that effect from Jose Mourinho, Arsene Wenger and Alex Ferguson.

So the PA system works to that effect - there HAS to be an absolute MAXIMUM that a player can achieve. Whether the system would improve if there was a variable XA system - the maximum a player could achieve at his current club that - has been debated before.

And, as has been pointed out already, PA/CA is far from the be all and end all of performance in football manager.

[Alurny]

Main issue, for me, is the fact most players develop in he same way, at the same rate, nearly always realising their potentials, bar serious injury.

Suggested improvement would be a better variation of development models:

Development Graphs

These models could also be affected by better facilities/Resources/staff eg:

Effect of resources

Also could be shown with a worked example:

Jimbob.

[Mitja]

leftback I don't understand the word you wanted to say. all I'm saying is even if PA exists there is nobody who could tell how much is it.

[leftback in the changing room]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

leftback I don't understand the word you wanted to say. all I'm saying is even if PA exists there is nobody who could tell how much is it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. There are ample scouts, coaches etc. out there who will tell you that they spotted the potential at a very young age (12 or 13 years old) of players like Wayne Rooney, Alan Shearer, Michael Owen and Emile Heskey (hmmm, 3 out of 4 ain't bad...). So PA is not a stat known only to whatever deity you choose to believe in - a skilled, practised watcher of football will be able to spot that a young player may have sufficient talent to be a superstar, never mind a professional footballer.

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leftback in the changing room:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

leftback I don't understand the word you wanted to say. all I'm saying is even if PA exists there is nobody who could tell how much is it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. There are ample scouts, coaches etc. out there who will tell you that they spotted the potential at a very young age (12 or 13 years old) of players like Wayne Rooney, Alan Shearer, Michael Owen and Emile Heskey (hmmm, 3 out of 4 ain't bad...). So PA is not a stat known only to whatever deity you choose to believe in - a skilled, practised watcher of football will be able to spot that a young player may have sufficient talent to be a superstar, never mind a professional footballer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes I agree. but the scout is making his decesion on his curent ability compered to other players at his age. and that's why this youngster has good potential. you can't tell how good he will be. as you can't tell what is going to happen next year. it's future and it didn't happen yet.

anyway I think we means quite the same with other words, there is no need to argue too much. I can accept this PA system, but I don't like it becouse some youngsters have set their potential with very young age. and I believe we witnesed these player's PA changing from one serie (of FM) to other.

[postal postie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leftback in the changing room:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

leftback I don't understand the word you wanted to say. all I'm saying is even if PA exists there is nobody who could tell how much is it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. There are ample scouts, coaches etc. out there who will tell you that they spotted the potential at a very young age (12 or 13 years old) of players like Wayne Rooney, Alan Shearer, Michael Owen and Emile Heskey (hmmm, 3 out of 4 ain't bad...). So PA is not a stat known only to whatever deity you choose to believe in - a skilled, practised watcher of football will be able to spot that a young player may have sufficient talent to be a superstar, never mind a professional footballer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes I agree. but the scout is making his decesion on his curent ability compered to other players at his age. and that's why this youngster has good potential. you can't tell how good he will be. as you can't tell what is going to happen next year. it's future and it didn't happen yet.

anyway I think we means quite the same with other words, there is no need to argue too much. I can accept this PA system, but I don't like it becouse some youngsters have set their potential with very young age. and I believe we witnesed these player's PA changing from one serie (of FM) to other. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes and PA is hidden thus you shouldn't be able to know it either unless you cheat and look.

the scouts in game dont see the exact PA and so will be working it out depending on what he says and how good at scouting he is.

so it works.

[Mitja]

you're right. but I don't think we are talking about that. (looking at it).

more of the problem to me is that PA has too much influence on how much the player will improove instead of his mental att., the fact wheather he is playing, the league he plays in, training facilities...

[Scath]

I wonder would the idea of a variable PA be more appropriate if it were kept within the boundaries of the 'minus' system - i.e. if player X has -10, which we'll have as 180-200, then allow his potential to change up to a certain cut off point ((it's a computer programme after all ).

The idea would be, I have a -10 striker, I sign him for a top club, I give him the best physical training possible, he's exposed to top class players, as well as coaches, ergo, he reaches the higher end of his potential range.

Now add another factor, I take the same player, bring him to a club where the manager's a d*ckhead, where there's a lot of conflict, and so you're player loses motivation, thus ending up at the lower end of the potential range. In our given example, this would put him at 180-ish out of 200, in the current system - a superb player, but one with serious mentality issues, which leads me to the next issue.

Some of the stats in game relating to personality should be 'floating.' Simple example - one of my players misses training, manager A fines him, manager B let's him off. If manager A is in charge, the player will become more professional (what choice does he have?) but will also be less loyal to his manager. If manager B is in charge, we'll see someone whose loyal, less professional, less consistent. Sadly, as it currently stands, we can't effect a player's hidden mental attributes, surely there should be a case of nature VERSUS NURTURE. Nurture doesn't play much of a part so far.

The other facet of player attributes I would remove from CA/PA is fitness, instead, I'd establish a second CA/PA for these. (sorry but it's still a game, we need laws and structures for it to function) Thus, I could have striker A, with great technical skill, we'll say he's a very smart player, with great physical PA. Let's then use as a real example, Michael Owen. In his youth, a long long time ago he seemed likely to be on the way to being one of the world's best. He had great skill married to lightning pace. Given the fact that his career has been ravaged by injury, he's lost massive amounts of pace - surely that should be seperate from the traditonal CA/PA system so it could be more easily modelled.

[Chas (Psyatika)]

The CA/PA system is not intended for users to see, so people complaining about it affecting their game is kind of silly.

Anyway, the way i thought CA worked, was that it allocated a certain number of points to the player in the different attributes.

So a player with a CA of 130 could simply have all of his points in very specific areas (Pace, Finishing, First Touch, Composure), and be a World Class striker, as opposed to a player with a CA of 180 whose stats are all over the place. A player with 19s in half the attributes and 1s for the rest is probably going to be considered miles better than a player with 10s in everything, but they probably have the same CA. Get my point?

[Chas (Psyatika)]

If you don't, it's this: You should be looking for players with certain attributes to fill your squad roles, not trying to find the players with the best PA. A quick search through the Genie Scout will do that, and that will get very boring after a while.

[TheFuzzyOne]

PA should be variable in my opinion...

When a player is going to be the next best thing, but if he gets lazy, or injured, he might lose motivation. This affects how much you want to train.

I propose,when a player is injured, if he doesn't have a determined personality, his mental attributes drop. If he is professional, he'll just care about recovering as fast as possible, and back to training.

[steves_smith]

I appologise for the ignorance but, when you talk about a player having a potential of 85 or 63 or 121, is this number derived from adding up all of the players attribute values?

[scoundrelly]

I for one don't think that there should be PA at all. But i do think that there should be a limit on how much better players can become after they get into the game (15/16 yo).

Because i think that Messi isn't better with the ball than Hyypiä because of some magick number (PA), he is better with the ball than hyypiä, because (at least what i think) he spent most of he's days playing around with the ball when he was a kid. And i don't mean that he went to a practice and after that he went back home to watch tv. i mean that he used to be playing all the time. Thus at the age of 15 i bet he had technique of atleast 12-14. And he's mental physical attributes were also quite high, for the same reason (well, he wasn't strong but he's style of play doesn't need it that much..)

Now, back to the part where i said that there needs to be a limit, well there does, because otherwise all the players in FM would become 'perfect'. But the limit should be combination of determination, work rate and ambition.

[scoundrelly]

bah, forgot almost half of the stuff i was supposed to write

Anyway, now, the limit on how much one player could/should improve.

I think that the maximum improvement per attribute should be 5-6. Atleast for the technical attributes. That could be gained via 'perfect' mental attributes, state of the art facilities and very good coaches.

Lets take Messi as an example again. I really don't think that he's now that much more skill full than he was, lets say, 4 years ago. Mainly he has gained mental and physical attributes. Due to growing older and having good coaches teaching him the tactical aspects of the game.

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by scoundrelly:

bah, forgot almost half of the stuff i was supposed to write

Anyway, now, the limit on how much one player could/should improve.

I think that the maximum improvement per attribute should be 5-6. Atleast for the technical attributes. That could be gained via 'perfect' mental attributes, state of the art facilities and very good coaches.

Lets take Messi as an example again. I really don't think that he's now that much more skill full than he was, lets say, 4 years ago. Mainly he has gained mental and physical attributes. Due to growing older and having good coaches teaching him the tactical aspects of the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...and of course actually playing for Barca first team, exactlly.

[postal postie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheFuzzyOne:

PA should be variable in my opinion...

When a player is going to be the next best thing, but if he gets lazy, or injured, he might lose motivation. This affects how much you want to train.

I propose,when a player is injured, if he doesn't have a determined personality, his mental attributes drop. If he is professional, he'll just care about recovering as fast as possible, and back to training. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

in this example it wouldn't drop the PA. it would merely stop him from reaching his PA.

if you dont train hard enough you wont reach the PA. if you don't have the facilities to train hard then you wont reach your PA>

the PA wont drop.

if a player has a long term injury then obviously he wont be training, this will result in is stats decreasing and less time to reach his PA, when you consider that once a player reaches a certain age within the game his improvements slow down.

i've had players with PA of 195 before and they never get any where near it.

the guy im thinking of only got to 145 at the age of 25.

he wont hit his pa at that late stage.

[xouman]

Another one that thinks as us

I also think that messi has great attributes when he was 15. Surely he has best technique among players of his age, and some good mental attributes. barça helped his physical attributes, gave him best facilities and coaches and opportunity of top quality matches.

Tell me players who have improved a lot since they were 21 years old. Players over 21 only develope dramatically if they have a huge external change (club moving, role changed, first time matches...). And players between 16 and 21 only develope massively IF they hadn't top conditions before.

I don't believe that everybody's PA exists for everything. I agree that physical attributes have a limit and some mental attributes also do (and some are difficult to change unless a special event happens, but usually don't change). But I really think that technical attributes don't have a limit. Every technique (not only fooball ones) can be mastered. Wikipedia says "A technique is a procedure used to accomplish a specific activity or task". Paint is not an technique, but mix colours it is. Shoot to goal is a technique, know where the keeper will go is not. Know how to do some tricks with the ball is a technique, accomplish to perform them is not a technique (you need coordination and properly technique). Tackle for the ball is a technique, but without strengh and bravery you surely will fail to take the ball. If we could live 1000 years we could master (19-20 skill points) a lots of techniques, although we surely won't have as flair as del piero, strength as terry neither composure as Van Nistelrooy. But maybe I'm wrong and our destiny is written in stone.

But the main problem is that AI knows CA and PA, and uses it. Value only should depend on current attributes, performances and progression, and also this is what ai managers and coaches should take in count. Also scouts should make their idea about player future with these parameters, of course in a smarter way (last years and months progression should have the clue there).

In my current game, of course patched, a 26 years old player scored 74 goals in 42 L2 matches (wasn't mine). And no clubs were interested in him, neither his value was high. Sorry but I din't understood that. a player who scores 74 goals in a season (second scorer had 38, a good mark) and any player has interest is too weird. Surely his PA was quite normal, but IRL some championship teams would be interested.