Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
James.Clench

Is it time for Variable PA

170 posts in this topic

I was never the most gifted footballer in my youth, in fact at school I was only ever picked 3rd or 4th in the playground on the premise that I would go in goal (I was, and still am quite lanky) so I know I am not exactly the authority on how a footballer develops, but..

I’ve been playing CM/FM since the 96/97 game (the one with the grey square boxes as a menu) and the one thing that hasn’t changed in all these years is that PA is determined when you are invented on the game at 14/15 and it doesn’t change. It just seems to me that it’s a bit restricting to be labelled as a player with potential of 85 or 63 or 121 at the tender age of 14/15, and no matter which football club you are at, and no matter how good the facilities and coaches are, that PA number will never change. Take me for example, when I was 15 if I had been put on the game I’d have been judged to have a potential of somewhere between 1 and 1, yet if at the age of 15 I went to a state of the art youth academy with a state of the art training setup and 23 world class coaches it’s a fair bet to say that I’d be a lot better footballer than I am now, some 10 years later.

I think that on the game when you get a fresh batch of youngsters their PA shouldn’t be set in stone, and until the player hits 18 or 19 that PA could rise or fall depending on the environment where they train and who trains them. The future change in a players PA could also be linked to there own stats such as ambition, intelligence, determination etc. The rise/fall of the PA wouldn’t have to be huge, but the training facilities and coaches at a club should make a difference to a players PA. I’d love to think that if I got a youngster aged 14 on the game and he had a PA of 160, there was a chance that with my clubs youth setup and coaches, I could make him world class.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was never the most gifted footballer in my youth, in fact at school I was only ever picked 3rd or 4th in the playground on the premise that I would go in goal (I was, and still am quite lanky) so I know I am not exactly the authority on how a footballer develops, but..

I’ve been playing CM/FM since the 96/97 game (the one with the grey square boxes as a menu) and the one thing that hasn’t changed in all these years is that PA is determined when you are invented on the game at 14/15 and it doesn’t change. It just seems to me that it’s a bit restricting to be labelled as a player with potential of 85 or 63 or 121 at the tender age of 14/15, and no matter which football club you are at, and no matter how good the facilities and coaches are, that PA number will never change. Take me for example, when I was 15 if I had been put on the game I’d have been judged to have a potential of somewhere between 1 and 1, yet if at the age of 15 I went to a state of the art youth academy with a state of the art training setup and 23 world class coaches it’s a fair bet to say that I’d be a lot better footballer than I am now, some 10 years later.

I think that on the game when you get a fresh batch of youngsters their PA shouldn’t be set in stone, and until the player hits 18 or 19 that PA could rise or fall depending on the environment where they train and who trains them. The future change in a players PA could also be linked to there own stats such as ambition, intelligence, determination etc. The rise/fall of the PA wouldn’t have to be huge, but the training facilities and coaches at a club should make a difference to a players PA. I’d love to think that if I got a youngster aged 14 on the game and he had a PA of 160, there was a chance that with my clubs youth setup and coaches, I could make him world class.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always thought that the PA of players was not for us to know, there are ways to find out but it was simply there so that the game would know how certain players could develop?

A player should only reach there PA under perfect conditions, for example with world class coaches and a world class youth system with the right mix of first team football to aid them. Therefore your PA would probably have been around 50, but as you never had the right training by the right coaches, you never reached your potential and ended up as just some lanky guy who gets stuck in goal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a word, no. Potential is the best a player can possibly be you could go to the finest youth academy in the world at 14 but you will NEVER exceed your potential. No one can make your potential increase or decrease only the ability you currently have will change. Its fair too say if i had gone to a state of the art training academy with the best youth coaches in the world i would be alot better than i am now but only because i would have reached my pontential not because i would have had more potential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The real problem is that player are generated with ex 65 PA and reach that amount at 16 then they never improve. This is stupid, they should improve at least until 18/19; but before that PA shouldn't be set...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

all this stuff about variable PAs or everyone should have a PA of 200 and the rest is based on your environment.

we're going along the assumption that we can see the PA. we shouldn't be able to. we get into this conversation about making PAs not set instone because some of us insist on looking at the PAs.

if you didn't then it makes no difference. the PA should be absolute. whether the player reaches that PA depends on their environment. this is how it is at the moment and how it should be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and who says that you can't be good at 160PA? i had a striker through my youth in the last FM. PA 163 but he was piling the goals in from all angles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

all this stuff about variable PAs or everyone should have a PA of 200 and the rest is based on your environment.

we're going along the assumption that we can see the PA. we shouldn't be able to. we get into this conversation about making PAs not set instone because some of us insist on looking at the PAs.

if you didn't then it makes no difference. the PA should be absolute. whether the player reaches that PA depends on their environment. this is how it is at the moment and how it should be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there is no PA IRE. how many times we seen PA changing to some player. it's just simplefied version of how things should be.

I would settle for variable PA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Variable PA is a bad idea in my view. This is because it could potentially mean the big clubs are constantly bringing through world class players simply because they are a big club.

If you are a small club trying to work your way up the ladder but the likes of Man United can constantly produce world class teams without having to find specific talent just because they can make any average joe a superstar talent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Variable PA is a bad idea in my view. This is because it could potentially mean the big clubs are constantly bringing through world class players simply because they are a big club.

If you are a small club trying to work your way up the ladder but the likes of Man United can constantly produce world class teams without having to find specific talent just because they can make any average joe a superstar talent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does PA/CA directly affect player performance? I always thought it just determined his starting attributes and the chances of them improving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Potential Ability should be fixed. The only case for varying it is if a player sustains a very, very serious injury.

Potential doesn't change. It is as good as you can ever be if you have all the right training, development and match experience. Environment affects CA.

If a player turns up in your U18s with CA of 60 and PA of 65 then all the coaching in the world won't affect his chances of becoming a good player. That is why top clubs don't churn out 5 youth players every year who can play in the first team. That is why the lower leagues are littered with players from Premier League academies. They simply weren't good enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think having a set PA so young is detramental in that it doesnt take into account development evironment factors such as coaches and training facilities.

But there is the need for a guideline in terms of potential. I mean natural talent and ability exists in real life and its not something that can be taught in excellent training facilities otherwise teams such as Man Utd and Arsenal would just save them a lot of hassle by recruiting 11 local kids every year and developing them into world class players instead of spending millions and millions of pounds tracking down, and accuiring players who have shown natural ability at such a young age such as Rooney, Walcott, Fabregas, Anderson etc

I think ideally the minus PA (-10,-9,-8 etc) system should be used for all players under 21 with a wider gap range for exampla -10 = 170-200, -9 = 160-190, -8 = 150-180 etc and this shouldn't be set until the players are about 19-21 with the figure increasing or decreasing according to the players experiences in the game with regards to developing factors such as coaches, training environment, first team experience etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Potential Ability dosnt need to change, as others have noted this is natural; its the best you could be - Then how can you tell this in a player at any age? Your asking a game to predict how good this player can be based on very little evidence at a very young age.

This suits the game because its easy to code, and everything in game seems to be related to ability so its quite a big factor, but i think the fluctuation between dvelopment would hit bugs...and oh...please not any more...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and who says that you can't be good at 160PA? i had a striker through my youth in the last FM. PA 163 but he was piling the goals in from all angles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

this cat is right, it's all about maximizing talent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think ideally the minus PA (-10,-9,-8 etc) system should be used for all players under 21 with a wider gap range for exampla -10 = 170-200, -9 = 160-190, -8 = 150-180 etc and this shouldn't be set until the players are about 19-21 with the figure increasing or decreasing according to the players experiences in the game with regards to developing factors such as coaches, training environment, first team experience etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is pretty good idea. Anyone under have no set PA. But not like 1-200. Sergio Arguero start off with not a set PA, but a possibility of 170-200 PA. Then depending on how he develops, his PA will be set when he turns 21. IT could be 185 it could be 195. But it depends on his development and not just determined since the beginning of the game. Then one turn 21, there are no more changes to the PA. Just a matter of maximizing his now-set PA.

This idea would please those who wish for variable PA. But it would also please those who wish for it to be set. And it would prevent big clubs from creating super talents every year because although it is possible to maximize a youngster's PA, his PA can still only go so high.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with 4site's and Kawee's ideas

Of course, a players personality should have an effect as well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As has been stated, PA is a hidden stat and the gamer is never supposed to know it.

Furthermore, it is entirely realistic. I knew from being the last kid picked in the playground at age 5 that my PA was never going to get above a single digit figure, not even if I blagged my way into the Arsenal academy. With the best facilities and coaching, you still need some inherent ability to work with.

So an unchanging PA is no problem with me. What I have noticced in the last few weeks since using an editor is that PAs DO change - with injuries a PA can drop - which again is entirely realistic; what perplexes me is that PA sometimes increases. icon_confused.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gaffovski:

I think what Kawee suggests is a great idea. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see any REAL difference here. Let's take his example of Aguerro.

On a fixed PA system his POTENTIAL is set at 195. Depending on his developement it will max out at 185 unless a lot of luck and ideal circumstances causes it to increase to up to 195. On the other hand, back luck and injuries could cause it to max at, say, 150.

Fixed PA IS 'variable' - the actual PA is the highest possible total it could reach. Apparently in FM08 far fewer players ever max their PA, which does appear to take into account these very concerns but in a different way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sheer Class:

You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheer Class I would have to disagree with your statement. Its never about talent, Talent is developed, life and sport is about attitude, dedication and commitment. 2 kids aged 15, 1 kids is streaks ahead of the kid as fas developed talent and Skills at that age. The kid with less talent, takes it upon himself to improve, through training and commitment, at the age of 21, i tell you the kid that worked harder and was more committed will be the kid with the better talent!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> On a fixed PA system his POTENTIAL is set at 195. Depending on his developement it will max out at 185 unless a lot of luck and ideal circumstances causes it to increase to up to 195. On the other hand, back luck and injuries could cause it to max at, say, 150.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that would not happen. Arguero, being the prodigy that he is, his lowest PA will be 170. The difference between the system I suggest and the one being used is that players now have a say with how the PA of a player turns out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DirtyJoe:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sheer Class:

You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheer Class I would have to disagree with your statement. Its never about talent, Talent is developed, life and sport is about attitude, dedication and commitment. 2 kids aged 15, 1 kids is streaks ahead of the kid as fas developed talent and Skills at that age. The kid with less talent, takes it upon himself to improve, through training and commitment, at the age of 21, i tell you the kid that worked harder and was more committed will be the kid with the better talent!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

absolutly true.

I remember Zidane on one of the 1st CMs. he sucked. and just in next year's he was one of the best...

there is also one big problem with PA, if player with high PA isn't playing and being injured and the other with lower PA plays every game, so how can the 1st one become better player?

talent separates good players from exellant. but talent is player ability- attributes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DirtyJoe:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sheer Class:

You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell that to Gascoign, Le Tissier, Liniker and Best. These were all naturally talented players who weren't really bothered about training and that sort of thing yet they still shone out above many other, harder working players.

If you take two kids at 15 and one is miles ahead of the other in terms of natural talent then no amount of training will make the other player better than the naturally talented one. Unless the naturally talented player just completely stops playing football and turns into a fat knacker. But that will never happen in FM.

For me a kids potential depends on a number of things. Natutal talent due to genetics being one. The amount of football they play from an early age and the environment they grow up in being others. But by the time they are 15 (the age they enter the FM world) there potential and personality is set. So from that point on they're only going to ever be able to reach a certain level. Of course players peak at different times but this is down to Current Ability and not Potential Ability. But by the time a player is around 15, if he hasn't got potential then all the best coaching in the world is only going to improve him as far as his potential will allow.

So for that reason I think the PA system in FM is perfectly fine as it is.

Sheer Class I would have to disagree with your statement. Its never about talent, Talent is developed, life and sport is about attitude, dedication and commitment. 2 kids aged 15, 1 kids is streaks ahead of the kid as fas developed talent and Skills at that age. The kid with less talent, takes it upon himself to improve, through training and commitment, at the age of 21, i tell you the kid that worked harder and was more committed will be the kid with the better talent!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Try that again seen as I messed up me quoting last time:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DirtyJoe:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sheer Class:

You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheer Class I would have to disagree with your statement. Its never about talent, Talent is developed, life and sport is about attitude, dedication and commitment. 2 kids aged 15, 1 kids is streaks ahead of the kid as fas developed talent and Skills at that age. The kid with less talent, takes it upon himself to improve, through training and commitment, at the age of 21, i tell you the kid that worked harder and was more committed will be the kid with the better talent!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell that to Gascoign, Le Tissier, Liniker and Best. These were all naturally talented players who weren't really bothered about training and that sort of thing yet they still shone out above many other, harder working players.

If you take two kids at 15 and one is miles ahead of the other in terms of natural talent then no amount of training will make the other player better than the naturally talented one. Unless the naturally talented player just completely stops playing football and turns into a fat knacker. But that will never happen in FM.

For me a kids potential depends on a number of things. Natutal talent due to genetics being one. The amount of football they play from an early age and the environment they grow up in being others. But by the time they are 15 (the age they enter the FM world) there potential and personality is set. So from that point on they're only going to ever be able to reach a certain level. Of course players peak at different times but this is down to Current Ability and not Potential Ability. But by the time a player is around 15, if he hasn't got potential then all the best coaching in the world is only going to improve him as far as his potential will allow.

So for that reason I think the PA system in FM is perfectly fine as it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dado Pršo quit playing football at age of 24 (worked as mechanist), then he joined some 3rd league french side, in couple of years he holds the record in CL for most goals in one match with Monaco, bocomes Croatian best player at 30, joines Rangers....

life is not so simple, that you can tell what is someone's potential at 15 years of age. Best and Gaza were better then thier mates in terms of ability- attributes. of course someone is more talented at age of 15 if he is better player. but there is no fixed potential realy. it exists only on FM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

Dado Pršo quit playing football at age of 24 (worked as mechanist), then he joined some 3rd league french side, in couple of years he holds the record in CL for most goals in one match with Monaco, bocomes Croatian best player at 30, joines Rangers....

life is not so simple, that you can tell what is someone's potential at 15 years of age. Best and Gaza were better then thier mates in terms of ability- attributes. of course someone is more talented at age of 15 if he is better player. but there is no fixed potential realy. it exists only on FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, we can both give rare examples of where something happens but fixed potential does exist in real life. If you take 20 15 year old kids who are all at the same level of ability and give them all the exact same top class coaching until they are 25 then all those players will not end up at exactly the same level. Some will be better than others, some might not make it at all and one or two will probably stand out above the rest. And that's because, despite being similarly matched at 15, they all had differing potentials.

Make no mistake, potential absolutely does exist in real life. It's why people stand out above other people in any sport. If there was no potential many sports would be very boring because all the competitors would just be equal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you mixed potential with pesonality.

those 20 kids with same ability; the most dedicated and lucky will sucseed, probably.

I can agree with you that talent separates best from just good, but even Maradona, Jordan or Federer worked hard to became what they are.

tell me where can I find that potential? I'm a little confused in my life... if I can find that all my problems will disapear...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If only FM Scout worked on real people eh? icon_wink.gif

If only FM Scout didn't work on FM then all this complaining probably wouldn't happen in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

tell me where can I find that potential? I'm a little confused in my life... if I can find that all my problems will disapear... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well by your reasoning you can find that potential by working hard. I'd say you just don't have that potential.

Do you really think that Maradona, Jordan or Federa worked that much harder than the majority of their counterparts? Do you not think they simply rose to the top because they were simply more talanted?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IRL everyone has a set potential ability with everything and it is our current ability that will change. For every person at everything there will be a time were you CANNOT get any better ie your CA has reached your potential.

Players have and always will just be as good as their potential some will reach their potential due to their surroundings some will just fade out.

The fact of the matter is you shouldn't be looking at the PA. You cannot see it in the game therefore just as in real life you have to use your judgement regarding who you sign not just tap into a database and look at a number!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

Dado Pršo quit playing football at age of 24 (worked as mechanist), then he joined some 3rd league french side, in couple of years he holds the record in CL for most goals in one match with Monaco, bocomes Croatian best player at 30, joines Rangers....

life is not so simple, that you can tell what is someone's potential at 15 years of age. Best and Gaza were better then thier mates in terms of ability- attributes. of course someone is more talented at age of 15 if he is better player. but there is no fixed potential realy. it exists only on FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes but P'rso still had a hypothetical PA, when he quit originaly just no one spotted it because they didn't have Genie scout!

His PA wouldn't have changed just because he quite then decided to try again, that would be his CA that has changed!

Why can't people get that through their heads?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

IRL everyone has a set potential ability with everything and it is our current ability that will change. For every person at everything there will be a time were you CANNOT get any better ie your CA has reached your potential.

Players have and always will just be as good as their potential some will reach their potential due to their surroundings some will just fade out.

The fact of the matter is you shouldn't be looking at the PA. You cannot see it in the game therefore just as in real life you have to use your judgement regarding who you sign not just tap into a database and look at a number! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's exeactly the problem, becouse AI is looking at CA/PA. if there are attributes only, things would be more real, AI should judge more things then just CA/PA. age, presonality and so on...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a good example from my life of Fixed potential and how it is the most realistic of all suggested methods.

I play squash along with my brother. We started playing at the same time. At first I would always beat him because I was bigger, fitter and stronger. However the coaches would alway rave about my brother as the next big thing.

I have since worked as hard as I can to improve my game and my fitness (15hours a week training and playing). My brother has worked less hard (3hours a week messing) and now he regularly kicks my ass.

This is down to him always having a higher natural potential and mine being fixed much lower. I may be closer to my PA but still nowhere near his CA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

tell me where can I find that potential? I'm a little confused in my life... if I can find that all my problems will disapear... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well by your reasoning you can find that potential by working hard . I'd say you just don't have that potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree icon_wink.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

IRL everyone has a set potential ability with everything and it is our current ability that will change. For every person at everything there will be a time were you CANNOT get any better ie your CA has reached your potential.

Players have and always will just be as good as their potential some will reach their potential due to their surroundings some will just fade out.

The fact of the matter is you shouldn't be looking at the PA. You cannot see it in the game therefore just as in real life you have to use your judgement regarding who you sign not just tap into a database and look at a number! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's exeactly the problem, becouse AI is looking at CA/PA. if there are attributes only, things would be more real, AI should judge more things then just CA/PA. age, presonality and so on... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand your point but i don't think it makes your argument about having a variable PA any stronger.

I think your argument should be that the AI should look at the attributes rather than the CA/PA, then i would agree, but the fact of the matter is PA should be set in stone just like everyones hypothetical PA is in real life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

do you believe in god, or what? destiny? I don't. I mean how do you know there is fixed PA in life.... life would have no reason for me, you know, if everything is fixed in advance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

..it's like saying life is only black and white. I think it's whole spector of colours and even those which can't be seen by human eyes icon_wink.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

do you believe in god, or what? destiny? I don't. I mean how do you know there is fixed PA in life.... life would have no reason for me, you know, if everything is fixed in advance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We're not saying that PA is set when you're born by some mystical being that points at you and says 'you will have a football potential of 150'.

Potential is down to your genes when your born and what happens to you as a child. By the time your 15 and entered the FM game world these things have shaped your potential and at this point it's very vary rare for that to change. Everyone has a point where they've gotten as good as they ever will be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

do you believe in god, or what? destiny? I don't. I mean how do you know there is fixed PA in life.... life would have no reason for me, you know, if everything is fixed in advance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe in god or anything like that. The reason there is a fixed PA in real life is because whatever i do no matter how good i am at it there will come to a point where i can get no better or i never reach my potential, it is current ability which changes.

IRL unlike the game we have no way of knowing what our PA is and therefore may or may not ever reach it just like in the game.

It is only because of all these external programs that we know about the PA's of the players.

IRL i am crap at football and my PA would be somewhere around 5 with a CA around 1. No matter how hard i train i will never get better than that, but IRL if have loads of other things which i might excel at, in the game we are only looking at one aspect of a 'persons' PA at everything!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can acceept that the game needs somthing like PA, even though there are games that don't have it, like PES, there are only attributes and peak factor-> youngsters can still develop, olds can't. it's more realistic in my opinoum, becouse there should be many factors which determine, will the player develop or not. we had big discussion on that metter before.

why I don't like CA/PA system is becouse every year we witness players CA/PA change. Ribery was avereage player 3 years ago, now he is the best. so if someone is poor player and is 23 years old he can't be good, due to years and attributes which can't get much better. it's quite irritating to see some over-rated young players, only becouse they play in good teams or nations. there are many players from my country who are 18, 19 years old, braking into national side, but in FM they even don't have PA set.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

why I don't like CA/PA system is becouse every year we witness players CA/PA change. Ribery was avereage player 3 years ago, now he is the best. so if someone is poor player and is 23 years old he can't be good, due to years and attributes which can't get much better. it's quite irritating to see some over-rated young players, only becouse they play in good teams or nations. there are many players from my country who are 18, 19 years old, braking into national side, but in FM they even don't have PA set. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you've just proved our point, IRL we had no idea that Ribery would get as good as he has, the developers can only guess stuff like that and they guessed wrong. He hasn't exceeded his potential the guy which watched him and said that his CA is X and based on how he's performed over the last couple of years his PA is Y, so basically the researcher guessed wrong.

They couldn't tap into his brain and work out a number from it using a scouting program!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...and then suddenly those youngsters, in FM09 they'll have PA-9.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Same discussion again? icon_razz.gif

I think similar to Mitja, PA does not exist IRL. Future is something absolutely unpredictable. you can say "tomorrow sun will raise again. Even if it's cloudy and you can't see it, it will be there.". You really don't know it, but you suppose that it will happen as always has happened until today. Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.

-I have agreed that physical attributes have a limit for each player, at least before bionical elements appear in the game icon_razz.gif

-But I think that mental attributes do not have a limit. I agree that some of these attributes won't hardly change with normal conditions (player's talent or creativity usually don't change in all their career), but others will do (for example work rating or team work). And some events could change "static" mental attributes (a very inspiring tutor, new role at new club, big injury, amazing year performance...)

-And then technical attributes. No limit for me, but maybe there could be a maximum all-around improving (let's say 10 points in a year of improvement). Every player can have a >18 value in dribbling, marking, finishing, passing... if he trains really hard. Yes, everybody can with properly conditions, but of course focusing so much on an skill would make losing other attributes or tiring player. Remember one thing: a technical attribute does little by itself, even if it's a 20. What does a player with 20 in dribbling do with 3 pace, acceleration, balance and technique? he won't go too far being so slow, and often he will lose himself the ball because having few technique. Why do you want a 20 in finishing if you have 3 in off the ball, composure, technique? you won't have many chances, and then you will miss lots of them due to nerves or poor shot. marking is not useful if you haven't strenght to take the ball, concentration to be alert... and passing is not useful if you don't have creativity, decissions, technique...

So for me, only one kind of the attributes should have a clear limit. So PA has little effect.

And all that good players that were better than others even with less training, that was due to initial attributes, not due hidden values. They had't "hard" mental attributes (work rating, team work...) but yes creativity ones. And technically spoken, they weren't better than others, just more focused (IRL a player with 20 finishing 1 tackling is better than a 15 finishing 10 tackling). Most of those players could have improved quite their physical attributes, but just don't needed it.

How many "points" had gascoigne or maradona improved from 18 to 25? Not a lot I guess. But they had great initial skills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

...and then suddenly those youngsters, in FM09 they'll have PA-9. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes because the resarchers previous guess was proved wrong.

They need to code it so that the game has rules to work from! Thats how computer programs work a series of codes and rules!!! Its not real life!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

why I don't like CA/PA system is becouse every year we witness players CA/PA change. Ribery was avereage player 3 years ago, now he is the best. so if someone is poor player and is 23 years old he can't be good, due to years and attributes which can't get much better. it's quite irritating to see some over-rated young players, only becouse they play in good teams or nations. there are many players from my country who are 18, 19 years old, braking into national side, but in FM they even don't have PA set. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you've just proved our point, IRL we had no idea that Ribery would get as good as he has, the developers can only guess stuff like that and they guessed wrong. He hasn't exceeded his potential the guy which watched him and said that his CA is X and based on how he's performed over the last couple of years his PA is Y, so basically the researcher guessed wrong.

They couldn't tap into his brain and work out a number from it using a scouting program!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you prooved my point icon_wink.gif

CA should be player's attributes. potential shouldn't be known/ set.

age, playing factor (level in which player plays/not), training facilities, personality and injuries are things which should determine how much can player improve.

of course youngster with all his att set to 1, can't be good player, even if all other aspects are in his feavour. on contrary, "naturaly gifted" youngster, who is given a chance to play can become good player, even if he is not most hard working person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No you can't but at the same time unless you use and external program to look at a database you can't in the game!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

why I don't like CA/PA system is becouse every year we witness players CA/PA change. Ribery was avereage player 3 years ago, now he is the best. so if someone is poor player and is 23 years old he can't be good, due to years and attributes which can't get much better. it's quite irritating to see some over-rated young players, only becouse they play in good teams or nations. there are many players from my country who are 18, 19 years old, braking into national side, but in FM they even don't have PA set. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you've just proved our point, IRL we had no idea that Ribery would get as good as he has, the developers can only guess stuff like that and they guessed wrong. He hasn't exceeded his potential the guy which watched him and said that his CA is X and based on how he's performed over the last couple of years his PA is Y, so basically the researcher guessed wrong.

They couldn't tap into his brain and work out a number from it using a scouting program!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you prooved my point icon_wink.gif

CA should be player's attributes. potential shouldn't be known/ set.

age, playing factor (level in which player plays/not), training facilities, personality and injuries are things which should determine how much can player improve.

of course youngster with all his att set to 1, can't be good player, even if all other aspects are in his feavour. on contrary, "naturaly gifted" youngster, who is given a chance to play can become good player, even if he is not most hard working person. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But they aren't know unless you cheat and use an external program!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basically, if you use the game AS INTENDED there is no way of knowing someones potential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.