Sorry but I needed to get this off my chest...

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sirdez24:

I still have a big problem with tactics, mainly because often it feels like a lottery and often I have no idea where I'm going wrong. I'll be doing really well, but will suddenly hit a form slump, even though I seem to be creating the same chances. Do I tweak it or do I keep it the same? Which parts of my tactic are being exposed? I'd like much more interaction from coaches and assistant managers here, especially for those who don't have the time/patience to watch matches on full to find out where a tactic has suddenly started to break down.

I also like the slider system, but find it quite limited. If I want my fullback or centre-half to make sure they stay goal-side of a player, I have to try and find the correct combination of team instructions, player instructions and opposition instructions. Why don't I have the option to go to my defender and tell him precisely where he should be on the pitch? Why can't I tell my wide men that it's really important the team keeps it's shape against a certain team who can exploit it?

In essence, I guess I just don't feel in control of my team enough. The slider system for team instructions is fine, but individual player instructions to me don't feel personal enough. Where is the bread and butter stuff? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im the same- I often feel that Im at the mercy of individual errors, rather than clearly seeing my tactics go wrong.

Now this is realistic- as managers all over the world tear their hair out when players make mistakes or unforced errors.

But in the real world a manager can take a player aside and have a word, or even show the whole team where they didnt follow his instructions or failed to do what they should be doing by analysing the game and pointing out mistakes.

Now I dont expect the full gamut of options available to a real life manager but come on SI give us something!!!!

FM is cursed by occurances that at the very best we have a very indirect and generalised way of dealing with- and in the context of the game this is not "fair" on the gamer.

I just do not feel I am managing a team of real life players- as the options to communicate with them are so limited.

We need more- even if its just the ability to say "why did you do X?" when my tactics specifically said Y. Or how about diving? Its so random and is horrible when your expecting a player to shoot but he dives when under no pressure (and even sometimes gets a second yellow and thus Red)- we cant even tell a player we dont want him diving.

The game is becoming paperthin and very stale- the brand new features this year were pretty poor and things like matchflow are not enough to keep this game fresh.

[cafe_latte]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Ackter - If our friends at SI get their act together, then version 8.0.2 on Football Manager will be the best version on FM/CM ever - and that's not even an exaggeration!

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzdovan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:

Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant speak for others, but when my striker/s only has the keeper to beat 10+ times per game then those chances are clearcut.

If they arent then its down to the 2D not showing correctly what the match engine is calculating.

I know many will just go by the match stats- but I tend to watch the games, and this is why this issue annoys me- it just makes watching the 2D very tedious.

So glad that by using the builtin tactics that this issue is much improved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that's not much of a solution, is it? For me the main thing that makes this game interesting is building your own tactics and trying your own ideas. If I can create a tactic that creates a lot of easy 1 on 1 chances it should mean I'm doing something right. Having to find a workaround by trying to create different types of chances totally spoils the enjoyment of the game for me. I could accept it if it was weird, unrealistic formations and tactics that did this but my slightly modified 4-4-2 diamond does it as well.

Although the scores are realistic (ie there doesn't seem to be too many or too few goals compared to RL) there is just too many chances in the game and way too many one on ones. It could be that SI took the wrong approach to fix those issues and instead of trying to reduce number of one on ones they reduced the possibility of scoring from one.

I still win most of my games but all this makes watching the game really tedious indeed. It annoys me to the point that I've stopped playing the game until the new patch arrives. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not saying it is- but theres nothing wrong with posting it to help others who are frustrated with the game and want to play it is there? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course there isn't and it definitely does help.

I usually play the game in LAN with two friends. One of them is having the same problem as me and the other one uses pretty much a default tactic and has no issues. I have also noticed that AI vs AI games seem fine number of shots wise but they also miss a lot of one on ones.

[BobbyB123]

The issue is to do with inconsistancy in the match engine between the user and AI teams.

And some of the results it produces are very unrealistic. On 13 times out of 30 games with Man Utd I've failed to turn a draw into a victory. Despite dominating most of those game.

Why can't we just have the 7.0.2 engine back, that was much more realistic , without giving too higher goals per game.

Also another thing is that teams with naturally more attacking football and better players will score more goals. But the game doesn't seem to reflect this , even though it reflects the amount of chances that they create.

[neilb242]

The thing thats annoyed me recently is those games, whether its against lesser teams or top teams, where it feels like the result is pre-determined. Where you just know a last minute equaliser will come even if they are down to nine men and playing below their normal standard. Or when you have been on a long winning streak, which ends for no apparent reason you can see, which makes you feel like the computer thought it was time to lose.

Given many of the factors mentioned by the original poster, the problem can be identifying why you are underperforming? Is it moral, which I think is far too easy to damage, or is it tactics, which are way too important? Or is it because I didn't give enough attention to opponent instructions and individual tactics, which, to be honest, bore me and would stop me from playing if I had to spend hours doing this?

Who knows, maybe its all of them. SI has a difficult job on their hands as people want realism, but also fun. if it was ultra realistic, then you would be spending a week on every game, but how much fun is that?

As to the people saying about new features, and how they work/or don't etc. I understand this fully. however...

Last year I plugged in my barely working amiga, and had a blast on some of the games. I then found a championship manager game from around 1994 I think. I loaded a game up, had a fiddle about, and switched it off within half an hour. Why? Because I couldn't do half the stuff I wanted to, it was slow, there was no interaction.

Its probably similar if you try playing fm 05 (can't say for certain as never owned it). Play that now after a few hours on fm08 and you'll be crying out for some of the new features to be available.

The version I've played on most is CM00/01. I enjoyed it because it was simple when you wanted it to be, but if you wanted to go further into detail, you could. Thats what I'd like now, a game that once you've set up your tactics, strategy and so on, you can either get on with things with only minor tweaking. surely this is how it is done in real life? Man utd generally play with the same tactic, and similar personel. If there is a dangerman, fergie will deal with that, or if he needs new players he'll go shopping. but he won't be altering tactics in any major way, and can say pretty much what he likes in public without his players bawling their eyes out. and if they do, he can quite simply deal with it however he sees fit. I know thats simplifying it a bit, but we are suppose to be playing a game, not taking a managerment course.

If SI came up with a perfect match engine and game, I would happily pay money for solely an update to the database. If I buy a new game, say for example half life, I don't expect to be buying a new version of it the following year. Yet with football manager, every single year a new version comes out.

I'm sorry if this post is a bit here and there, I've written it as I've thought it. I agree with the original poster, there are a collection of things that need correcting. But this game is still very good, and I do appreciate the hard job SI have. everyone wants something different from the game. With the later championship manager games I felt they were getting there, a game that could be relatively simple once you got to know it, but could also provide deeper play for people who wanted to tinker. With this version, the first football manager I have significantly played, I feel there is too much going on. It feels like I don't have a choice to play more simply if I choose to anymore, only that I have to play in great detail whether I want to or not. And thats, for me at least, is taking some of the fun away.

[tmolvik]

Very nice post by neilb242. I totally agree with the aspect that many of us complain about how nice earlier versions was, but still wouldn't play them again because they're missing important features. At the same time I also agree that when I open a new game every year, a new database with the latest transfers is just as important as a new feature. Of course the game needs to renew itself, but not every year and not when time pressure affects the quality of the game.

At the same time I also found an interesting post by sirdez24 and George Graham, about the missing possibility of knowing why things go wrong. Further coach/ass.man interaction would be a great feature, but also some kind of feeback that shows you that the resaon that Cristiano Ronaldo netted 3 times against you was because your full back was way to slow. Or that your short passes did not work at all because of the muddy field. Don't know in which format, and not necisarrily that straight forward, but it will make tactics more interesting for people.

What I must say I disagree a bit with, is the wishes for even more features before SI has managed to get in control over those already implemented. We all would like new features, but not at any costs I hope?

Anyway thank you all for keeping this thread as a serious and calm discussion without any name calling or screaming at SI. Hopefully it will be a thread which they also might get something useful out of

[Ljuba82]

Excellent post!!! I especially agree with "cracking tactics" part.

Altough previous versions were not perfect, they were playable, this is the first version since I'm playing CM/FM (and I'm playing it for last 10 years) that is simply unplayable, simply not realistic enough. And I'm not talking about minor anooyances, like in every game, ME in FM 2008 really put a stick in your eyes.

[tmolvik]

Thank you, and that might also be one of the most annoying parts, as it is completely unrealistic.

It also kills me that my opposition keeps on scoring at de end of added time. When they get a chance 2.46 into the three minutes of added time it never goes wrong that they score. I'm sure it is not a bug, and that there is someway one can prevent it by keep cracking tactics, but it's still irritating..

[Tony Dolby]

You've made some good points here.

Somewhere on this list, someone from SI admitted that they have tweaked the finishing power of strikers.

The problem as I see it is that too many chances are being created due to midfielders being too good and defenders being too poor. A world-class midfielder playing against world class defenders may produce two or three defence splitting passes in a game certainly not seven or eight.

As for tactics, if this game is about realism, why are SI trying to stop 'killer' tactics. These do not happen in real-life and a 2-2-2-4 tactic would be destroyed by any real-life team.

The only exception I can think of was Brazil's 4-2-4 tactic in the 1950's. It worked for a while because they had great players.

[emgergo]

4-2-4 was not that suicidal, and it was widely employed at that time. Actually, it's only a step from the current 4-4-2.

[tmolvik]

Another problem with the shot/goals-ratio problem, is that I think it also will have something to do with the confidence issue. If you read your match confidence after a typical s/g-match, you often see your supporter spokesperson tellgin you that your fans are dissapointed with the teams inability to convert chances into goals.. As your surroundings total perception of you (which I guess is some kind of median of all feedback during the season) affects if you keep your job or not, this will then indirectly decide your faith. A bit scary when you hear many stories of players/managers who are getting sacked even though they have brought success to their club.

[Saxo]

I also stopped playing FM. Too many silly little bugs both in the match engine and in the overall AI.

[sacripante]

I was reading this post and i found it very interesting, so i decided to add my opinion..

In addition to all things written here, there is something that i find unrealistic:

all teams can "travel" far too easy from their box to the opponent's one. I see often player running with the ball (well not only running, sprinting..) 60 -70 yards, running between the defenders who seems rooted to the ground. IRL u can see a coast-to-coast 1 or 2 times in a year, and when it happens everyone talk about that as something exceptional.. Here it happens even at very low levels.

Again, u can see lots of 50-60 yard perfect passes, with the ball "on fly" for some seconds and no defenders moving until the attacker stopped the ball. Obviuosly, those perfect passes even at very low levels.

I could go on, but i think my opinion (obviously is an opinion and not "The Truth") is clear; however what i described help the ME to create lots of chances.

[sirdez24]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by emgergo:

4-2-4 was not that suicidal, and it was widely employed at that time. Actually, it's only a step from the current 4-4-2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly - if you watch current day Man United, whoever is out wide, sat Ronaldo and Giggs, will push forward far enough to create a 4-2-4 in effect. However they also push back in the build up so it's not strictly a two man midfield, which would get eaten alive.

[KDR]

I have to agree with what a lot of others have said already. SI say this is the best version yet, and I would broadly go along with that. But it will only be seen as such by us, the players, if the issues that have been so well covered over the last few months get resolved.

I can't say that I have seen anyone caning sides in terms of shots 11 v. 11 in my game post-patch (but then I did go back to Beta 1), but what I have seen is the 'cracked tactics' issue, whereby my team who had previously lost two in eleven - and only four in twenty-five - suddenly couldn't find any space whatsoever, couldn't shoot, and even when defenders were goal-side, couldn't stop shots flying past the keeper from well outside the box.

Due to other posts here, I started watching games in their entirety and saw my players suddenly ignoring the instructions that they had previously adhered to well, while at the same time I started losing 3-1 despite the opposition only having three shots on target - my previously tight defence and MOM winning keeper were suddenly looking as easy to beat as my nephew's side would be against Arsenal's first XI.

Losing I can handle, and although I knew better than to think the game cheated (why would it, even if it could?), I felt that something was very wrong with the AI's ability to adapt. I don't mind it learning to deal with my tactics and players at all - it's realistic for managers to try to nullify threats while also keeping their own options open - but this isn't a battle of wits between bosses, it's something else, as nothing I tried had any effect.

Again as others have said, the ME is a huge problem area. I have had strikers in good form not bothering to go for crosses, watching them run out instead, and crosses themselves are a problem, as I have to set the wingers to 'cross often' for them to cross at all...and of course regardless of instructions they tend to overhit crosses or smack them into the box despite no one being there.

Ultimately, though, all the players complaining about these things can't be wrong. SI might say that it's a simulation, you have to do X, Y and Z, as a real manager would, but while I am all for accuracy in some respects, I really don't have the time (or inclination) to treat a computer game that seriously. A bit of thought, yes, but if I wanted the stresses and strains of actually managing, I'd get my badges and start earning the rewards. Plus, as has been said elsewhere, IRL there would be more interaction with players, telling them where they had gone wrong, what they needed to do to improve, etc. - things that would be too time-consuming and fiddly to include in FM.

I just hope that SI realize the strength of feeling surrounding this game and do it justice, if not...well, people might not take a punt on 09. As things stand, I won't. I told the missus that 08 would be the last version I got - though I said that about 06 and 07.

This time I fear I might not have been kidding. But we shall see what we shall see.

[KDR]

Sorry about long post, btw.

[hammersjj]

A lot of people seem to be getting frustrated watching games. Defenders running in treacle, forwards shooting straight at the gk, players not going for crosses.

But the graphics are just a representation of events that have already been calculated. So if the match engine calculates a missed chance the graphics find a way to display that. The problem seems to be a two part one, first the game is calculating too many chances in some circumstances, second the unrealistic ways this is sometimes displayed. Once SI work out what is causing the first problem and adjust it the graphics part won't be so obvious.

Strikers shooting straight at GK's is nothing new it has always been in FM, it is just more noticable due to the large number of chances.

[tmolvik]

I think KDR has many valid points in his post, but as he also is mentioning, one gets to feel that SI isn't taking it to seriously. I especially recognize the feeling that no matter what you do, it won't affect the match result, as AI kind of has decided that it should win this game. If tactics should have the influence that it has right now, and I then mean that tactics beats ability and the AI-cracking of it, then at least it should a battle of tactics and not AI pre-calculations. Also "normal" tactics that doesn't has to be changed and tweaked all the time, must have it's value..

When it comes to hammersjj post, I just don't hope he is correct. It's a very interesting post, but if it's correct then SI might as well just get rid of the 2d-engine, and rather work on developing the normal one towards perfection.

[Tony Dolby]

Location: England

Registered: 06 October 2003

Exactly - if you watch current day Man United, whoever is out wide, sat Ronaldo and Giggs, will push forward far enough to create a 4-2-4 in effect. However they also push back in the build up so it's not strictly a two man midfield, which would get eaten alive.

KDR

Amateur

Exactly. This system succeeds because they have the players to make it work.

The problem at the moment is that match engine allows AI managed Farsley Celtic to use it to devastating effect.

Also, the match engine has been tuned to make other super tactics less effective. In real life these 'super' tactics just do not exist.

[T-Bag]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I have to agree with what a lot of others have said already. SI say this is the best version yet, and I would broadly go along with that. But it will only be seen as such by us, the players, if the issues that have been so well covered over the last few months get resolved.

I can't say that I have seen anyone caning sides in terms of shots 11 v. 11 in my game post-patch (but then I did go back to Beta 1), but what I have seen is the 'cracked tactics' issue, whereby my team who had previously lost two in eleven - and only four in twenty-five - suddenly couldn't find any space whatsoever, couldn't shoot, and even when defenders were goal-side, couldn't stop shots flying past the keeper from well outside the box.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's interesting you attribute this to your tactics being cracked. I have suffered the same thing for the last couple of versions but never put it down to that. I find that I always go on stupid runs on FM. It's like win 20 games in a row, lose 10 in a row, draw 10 in a row. There seems to be no sensible distribution of results sometimes. It is one of the many things which annoys me with it !

[bytheway]

sorry this has nothing to do with the post and i can;t start new threads so here it goes.

italy have just won Euro 2008 on my save. i get a new message on my news screen showing the European Championship Dream Team. nothing unusual until i take a proper look. the WHOLE starting 11 where Italian! WTF!!!

Biased voting if ya ask me.

[cruyff14]

this is the worst version yet its feels so rushed when you play it everything doesn't seem to glide smoothly for me the whole match day bit looks tacky I actually wonder if EA made this game it's that bad ?! I would normally just go play pro evo until that sorted the game out but that's just as bug ridden !

[hammersjj]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When it comes to hammersjj post, I just don't hope he is correct. It's a very interesting post, but if it's correct then SI might as well just get rid of the 2d-engine, and rather work on developing the normal one towards perfection. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The graphics are basically a movie of the game that the engine has worked out before it starts, if you make any changes (subs etc) the engine recalculates from that point on based on your change and generates a new movie. But if you and the opposition made no changes the result of the game is known before the graphical game starts. Just not known to you so the effect is the same.

[JBC#1]

i think some people are over reacting because tbh its still just a game ! (the old cliche ) but no one at si should be meeting about how this is a shambles as i saw earlier because they are doing their best . yes the bugs are annoying and i am waiting for the patch to play the game in full intstead of messing around but until then i can wait . thanks

[tmolvik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hammersjj:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When it comes to hammersjj post, I just don't hope he is correct. It's a very interesting post, but if it's correct then SI might as well just get rid of the 2d-engine, and rather work on developing the normal one towards perfection. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The graphics are basically a movie of the game that the engine has worked out before it starts, if you make any changes (subs etc) the engine recalculates from that point on based on your change and generates a new movie. But if you and the opposition made no changes the result of the game is known before the graphical game starts. Just not known to you so the effect is the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that the match is pre-calculated, and I'm sure the videos are also, but I felt that you were suggesting that the graphic display didn't take tactics into considerating. With that I mean, that even if you have crosses on "always" you won't necissarily see them in the graphic display, as its just creating som kind of random "scene" to present a highlight.. I guess I misunderstood then

[hammersjj]

No sorry you have misunderstood a little, I wasn't referring to tactics at all really. I assume the game allows for tactics to effect the movie you see. The point I was trying to make was the shots/goals ratio problem seems to frustrate people because they have to watch a world class striker miss 10 chances a game.

Some people don't realize it is pre-calculated and think that the game you watch is unfolding before there eyes as it happens. So they think that if a striker with high finishing gets clean through he should score. In reality the game has worked out before he got through that this is a missed chance so at that instant in the movie his finishing rating really doesn't matter. This leads to frustration and complaint that the game doesn't work.

By the way nice opening post, quite a few people on these boards with English as their first language could learn a lot about how to go about things the right way from it.

[CowRonaldo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wizard:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So mate, you think FM2008 has a PA of 200 and CA of 78, but sadly stuck in a smallish club without much facility and coaches with only 3-4 stars ability...

I agree...100%

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a great comparison!!!!

[Jablome]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hammersjj:

A lot of people seem to be getting frustrated watching games. Defenders running in treacle, forwards shooting straight at the gk, players not going for crosses.

But the graphics are just a representation of events that have already been calculated. So if the match engine calculates a missed chance the graphics find a way to display that. The problem seems to be a two part one, first the game is calculating too many chances in some circumstances, second the unrealistic ways this is sometimes displayed. Once SI work out what is causing the first problem and adjust it the graphics part won't be so obvious.

Strikers shooting straight at GK's is nothing new it has always been in FM, it is just more noticable due to the large number of chances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. For me, watching the games is infuriating.

There are so many reasons especially,

The endless parade of 1v1's that don't score.

Corners that the defender up by the taker blocks (seemingly like in basketball) or that go straight out. Ug!

Basically, whether the match engine is good or not (and I think it is), the movie is not...yet.

So, it really detracts from the experience.

[Mitja]

complexity of ME and bringing new features/cosmetics to the game is reason, why we have "half made game", at the moment. in all aspects; tactics, traning, interaction, media, team talks, confidence... I can acept bugs in ME due to it's complexity, somehow but I can't accept new facegen technology instead of new training or tactics system.

do they need to re write the game or just bring this one to another step? hard to decide. all I know is that most of features didn't change much for some time now.

tactics for example. we have an army of sliders, team and individual, but we cannot say to to our player to come deep for the ball, for example or to stay back. that's basics in my opinoum. for years I'm trying to play my wingers more IRE like; to come deep to cut inside and I tried it all, but they still hold to their flank like some school boys and I'm yet to see free role working properly. why can't we say to our players to huge line or to cut inside? basics...

too many sliders; if I have my player to attacking mentality, that means I'm giving him space to make forward runs, right? why do I have to tick it again? changing individual mentality this year is a step back. now mentality means simply where the players is passing the ball- back, and holding it if you play him defensive. or kickin it up front every time on attacking. I'm a liitle exeduring but the point still stands. simplify things and you'll bring more complexity. for example what are now prefered moves could be tactical features...

training; all we have now is individual training system for improving attributes. it's ok but that is just one part of training. it would be nice to see some improvements like prepering for next match. you could set your tactics and then clikc prepere for next match. further you could set your team plan- when the game is egal, when you're loosing/wining. or maybe a feature when your strikers can't score. you should be able to tell your assistant to train hard on shooting, or maybe you'd like to employ off side trap, why not to have that option to work it out on training sessions... or an option to choose your place of preparing the team before world cup...

there are so many things I can come up with but these two areas are really important in football and would like to see improvemnet on that. together with interaction (board, players, staff, fans) and media.

[Mitja]

I forgot to mention....most of all what I would like to see is more human factor in the game. for example when the team scores players automaticly get more cautious, especialy in big and important matches. it freaks me out how some mid table team is playing like barca at the end of the matches, holding on to the ball like they have 11 messi's in the team. can't remeber ever to see some real pressure in the final minutes...

[syimie]

If i'm not mistaken...football manager is a simulation game...right?...so...what does simulation mean?

It means that the game should be as real as possible with the real world...real situation...30 shots on goal but only manage to get one goal!!!!

Is that real?????????

[xouman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

I forgot to mention....most of all what I would like to see is more human factor in the game. for example when the team scores players automaticly get more cautious, especialy in big and important matches. it freaks me out how some mid table team is playing like barca at the end of the matches, holding on to the ball like they have 11 messi's in the team. can't remeber ever to see some real pressure in the final minutes... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you in all potential changes, but also I can say that I'm enjoying fm2008 as I've do with all cm's and fm's I've played.

FM2009 with the changes you suggest would be great! (with board and transfers tweaks )

[Sir_Liam]

I am actually playing FM2007 at the moment (Not because I dislike FM2008, but because I've got a great save game on 07, while my 08 save is frustrating me), and having played that again I'd say the FM2008 match engine is actually an improvement in general.

On FM2007 players close down far to

[Sir_Liam]

I am actually playing FM2007 at the moment (Not because I dislike FM2008, but because I've got a great save game on 07, while my 08 save is frustrating me), and having played that again I'd say the FM2008 match engine is actually an improvement in general.

On FM2007 players close down far too enthusias

[Sir_Liam]

Why those 2 have appeared over 2 hours after I posted it I don't know.

Here's the full post:

I am actually playing FM2007 at the moment (Not because I dislike FM2008, but because I've got a great save game on 07, while my 08 save is frustrating me), and having played that again I'd say the FM2008 match engine is actually an improvement in general.

On FM2007 players close down far too enthusiastically, and generally appear to have very little positional sense. Off the ball movement is poorer as well, and then there's the way jumping is far too influential.

I agree with the op about the shots/goals ratio which is unrealistic. I think the reason this happens is because players do not anticipate situations very well. While on FM2007 they lacked positioning, they did read the game better and cover their opponents when a man got through. On FM2008 the opposite is the case with defenders sticking far too rigidly to the formation and instead of moving 5 yards to stop an opponent they let them waltz through and get a one on one chance.

This problem extends into the midfield where I have given up trying to create a flat defensive 4-4-2. This is because without a DM when the opposition attacks me their midfielders run riot with forward runs, and my midfielders who stick too rigidly to the formation just let them go all the time.

I've exploited these problems myself, playing an AMC in a 4-1-2-1-2 formation. The AI never once seemed to realise just how much room my AMC got and as a result he had a great season, despite not having the greatest finishing or creativity.

I've also been destroyed in a similar manner by a 4-3-2-1 formation. Hull, despite their being a lot of better sides reached the play-offs on my Leicester game and absolutely destroyed me with their lone striker and AMCs. If they played 4-4-2 they'd have never got near the play-offs, but they got there and because their formation was match engine friendly almost won them.

Another problem is the amount of points scored by teams. This problem has frustrated me the most in FM2008. Generally the required points to win a division on FM is 15-20 points fewer than in real life, except it seems when a human player is chasing the title or promotion.

I am not suggesting the AI cheats, as I do not believe that, but the last 2 seasons on FM2008 I've scored 90 and 92 points respectively and have finished 3rd on both occasions and lost the play-offs. I checked the other leagues and the champions in each had no more than 80 points. I checked 16 real life tables of 24 team divisions, and the most points any team finishing 3rd got was 85. Every team getting 90 points or above was promoted, generally by atleast 10 points, yet I failed 2 seasons running.

I remember a topic on FM2007 about a similar thing, which was dismissed by most, but I believe that on average the top teams score more points when there's a human team near the top.

[Jablome]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

I can acept bugs in ME due to it's complexity, somehow but I can't accept new facegen technology instead of new training or tactics system.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great point.

[tmolvik]

Good point for Sir Liam about the points for winning.. I never really have noticed that, although I must admit that I also get a feeling that the "scene" changes when a human team gets involved. Either it's in the top, bottom or just a regular match.

I also watched the Liverpool - Luton game on tuesday where Liverpool had 22 chances/SoG and Luton 0. In that match the commentaries where telling us how great an amount this was, and that it was an inredible amount.. Well this was a Premier League teams against a League 1. Still, in almost every Premier League game in FM I have between 20-30 shots/chances. It's just an example of how unrealistic this thing is, and I really really hope they fix it for the patch, without messing up the amount of goals or other things.

[Mitja]

tactical aspect is big problem right now, positionig especially. MCs are creating huge gaps. their defensive awereness would probablly fix many problems about too many chances. I hope SI are awere of that.

[tmolvik]

To be honest it's almost like i want them to cut the whole graphic display. Of course it will be a huge drawback, but at least you won't be bothered to see how obviously things are not working. With only commentary matchflow would be better, and maybe they even manage to make a decent match engine. The way it is now it is almost completely useless, as you never know wether to trust it or not.

[gazcollo]

I agree with nearly everything posted here....personally I never watch the games and rely only on the commentary as I feel it is far too complex for a computer game to try and re-create real football and can only ever lead to problems admittedly I may be missing out on a huge part of the game but I prefered it that way when I played on the old amiga and still do now....in every other version of this series I have never had a problem managing a team and getting beat a lot and not winning anything because in previous versions I have always been able to pin point what it is I am doing wrong and work towards rectifying it,but this version the tactics just seem to be guesswork e.g I have an Arsenal team and I use BIG D tactics and we are unstoppable however I have attempted to implement some tactical variations from a certain point in my saved game and the results fluctuate terribly.Using original tactic and we are unbeatable however if I get Fabregas to push a bit further forward even though his instructions remain the same sudeenly we leak goals all over and get turned over by the likes of Watford and Hull and suddenly are mediocre mid table team.....how can that be,the problem is when you are going horrendously wrong in your tactics there is nothing to indicate where you are going wrong and any changes you make could be making it worse for all you know.we need something that can point you in the right direction something like your ass man having an indicator bar or something as to how suitable your tactics are to the players in your squad......I could go on but I dont want a ridiculously long post that would put people off reading it but I think SI need to seriously go back to basics as at the moment the real fun has gone from the game,they need to go and look at why we all loved Championship Manager in the first place and why a huge number of us are dis-illusioned with it now....I get no satisfaction from making a tactics change and coming from 1-0 down to win 2-1 because usually I have no idea what I done

[lawd]

Nice to see this topic has not been sullied into a the debacle it usually does.

I completeley agree with what has been said here, and as many other posters have said (in relation to s/g ratio) it isn't that I'm not scoring enough, I'm creating too much. I would be much happier to see my team on average create around 10 chances a match give or take, say roughly half on target half off, and win maybe by one or two. But if I'm creating 30+ chances a game, and I have world class finishers then why do I either only win 1 or 2-0 or get beat 1-0 by a side who have converted their only chance?

The amount on 1v1's is ludicrous, How many times in real life would Henry, or Drogba, or Eto'o fluff 1 on 1's? If I get a 1 on 1 (which shouldn't be as often as I do) then surely my striker with 18 finishing, 17 composure, and 20 technique should be favorite against a keeper of any ability.

I love FM I really do, I have been playing for 10 years or so now and have enjoyed every aspect, from the joy of winning my first title, to the sore hands when you hit the wall in frustration.

But 8.0.1 is getting silly and I am enjoying it less and less, and as we are so often reminded that this is only a game, then my enjoyment should be paramount.

Excellent thread this I hope it gets a response.

[Liquid Tension]

What I wish most of all is that SI would stop making this a franchise type game that comes out every year like an EA Sports title and just concentrate on actually making a game and then releasing it when it's actually ready.

I accept that there is always going to be bugs in a game so complex as this and that's fine now that a new game is out every year, I am struggling to remember the last time I played a game that felt like it was complete. Sure they get patched, but there have always been big problems remaining and by the time I'm expecting a new patch to fix that, I know the guys have abandoned it in favour of the following years version. Like many people have already said, SI really need to actually fix the game they already have before they think about putting in new features. In all honesty the new features the last few years have been rather underwhelming anyway. They need to get back to basics, sort out the tactics so that the game feels more 'pick up and play' like it was in the CM days where I could just make a tactic and win 8/10 games with a good team without needing to be a tactial genius. It's not fun to have to tweak tactics before every match. Especially when nobody knows what their tweaking is even doing.

[vagaswil]

Great post, you've basicly summed up everthing i found frustrating with this new encarnation of what used to be the most addictive game ever. I love the part about the tactics, its spot on. FM08 did not last a month on my PC and i doubt the disc will see another trip out of the box. I have reverted back to FM07 and i doubt if i will bother purchasing FM09 unless when it comes out their is a hell a lot of people raving about it on these forums.

For me SI have been trying to hard since FM06.

Guys if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[BenskiSullivanovich]

Absolutey agree with the post.

I'm currently playing a game as Farsley Celtic and my squad is head and shoulders above any other team in League 2 (won promotion from BSP in year 1)

I'm top of the league but still I'm really not enjoying the game as much as I should be and it's down to several factors.

In my 20 or so games played so far this season I have had 20+ shots on goal in 90% of the games compared to 5 or 6 from my opponants yet I've still lost and drawn far too many games than should be reasonable - I have a striking partnership of Fabian Brandy & Raffaelle De Vita which as any FM player should now is rather a formidable attack in League 2 !!

Anyway I intend to analyse all the shots on target ratios etc etc at the end of the season and post my findings - wouldn't normally bother with such pedantry but I've just been signed off work for 3 months after suffering a rather sudden and unexpected brain haemorrage (not blaming it on SI by the way) and I'm gonna be bored out of my mind LOL.

I'm also going to count the amount of times the ball bounces off my rubber covered teflon gloved (with a handling stat of 18) goalkeeper straight into the path of my opponant.

Then I shall count the amount of long shots taken by my team alhough each and every player is set to not take them and also they have creative freedom set to 0.

Finally I shall take note of the amount of times an opponant with a Long Shot stat of less than 10 scores an absolute screamer.

I'm in agreement with SI because I do think this is the best game from the series, well potentially at least and I can honesly say I've not stopped playing it but I'm not going to looking forward to the next installment with as much enthusiasm unless SI can promise that they are taking their long and loyal customers a little more seriously than their profits next time around.

Anyway I better get back to good old Farsley Celtic and another night of frustration :-)

P.S - Just as the chap a few posts up sorry about the long post.

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vagaswil:

For me SI have been trying to hard since FM06.

Guys if it ain't broke don't fix it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly.

It is broken in many areas where long term issues have been ignored (Eg transfer market, tactical interface, media/player interaction), and on top of that innovative features are very thin on the ground.

This series is stuck in a rut.

[Phil930]

Great post and I too am in agreement. We all find these games frustrating at times, especially those that have played since the real old days of Italia Manager or CM2.

Sure, you can't compare the games now to the oldies, which always seemed fun rather than simulations. Todays versions are superb, very detailed and realistic. My frustration comes with SI itself, and as 'George Graham' said above the fact they are stuck in a rut.

Meangingless features continue to be included when all we want is great CORE features; a good transfer system, detailed finances, tactics and a realistic but fun match engine. I wish they would build the game around the fundamentals again, and bring back the level of enjoyment for me of the CM 01/02 days.

I also wish SI would acknowledge issues with greater honesty, and stop rushing a game for yearly October time releases yet is a difficult and frustrating playing experience until the inevitable second patch in Feb.

Personally it's grown a little old for me now, and I prefer gaming that relaxes me, not agitates me. For FM09 I won't be buying until its fully patched and pending forum feedback.

[Spagbol]

I did find FM07 fun, I'd probably put it in the top three CM/FM games ever in fact.

The growing issue I have is that having tried three or four smaller leagues after flawed games in Ireland and Spain I've just found another fatal bug (in Malaysia this time). I really have no idea how this game was released.

As Phil930 and others have noted playing FM is no longer entertaining, it just grinds. Another thing I miss are the days when you could get through a seaosn in five hours. A lot of us don't have time to contribute 48 hours of real life play per season as we get older.

[Powermonger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

Hardly.

It is broken in many areas where long term issues have been ignored (Eg transfer market, tactical interface, media/player interaction), and on top of that innovative features are very thin on the ground.

This series is stuck in a rut. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It really makes you ask where all the development time is going.? Has SI spread themselves too thin with all the different versions they do at the cost of truly developing the series? Perhaps alot of work is going on in the background but us as users only see the front end, and despite the fact the default skin keeps getting perfected more and more, not much seems to change.

Other games that have sequels go through major design changes each release, granted they have longer development schedules, but with FM major changes seem to be non-existant even if you skip a release.

I guess as fans we get frustrated because we enjoy the game but want more from SI and feel comfortable that they are committed to progressing the series and willing to take risks. Minor changes are good and all but it is the innovative, major changes that drive interest.

[Phil930]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spagbol:

I did find FM07 fun, I'd probably put it in the top three CM/FM games ever in fact.

The growing issue I have is that having tried three or four smaller leagues after flawed games in Ireland and Spain I've just found another fatal bug (in Malaysia this time). I really have no idea how this game was released.

As Phil930 and others have noted playing FM is no longer entertaining, it just grinds. Another thing I miss are the days when you could get through a seaosn in five hours. A lot of us don't have time to contribute 48 hours of real life play per season as we get older. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely agree; I'm one of those players who loves to progress through a season in one day. Personally, the aspects of the game I enjoy are winning games and signing players and accruing both as quickly as possible.

Other things like this annoy me when the AI play one another, and I quote:

"A close fought game at Anfield ended in a one sided result as Liverpool beat Arsenal 6-0".

Not so close then, eh?

[Spagbol]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Completely agree; I'm one of those players who loves to progress through a season in one day. Personally, the aspects of the game I enjoy are winning games and signing players and accruing both as quickly as possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's funny, after all the changes and additions that people are sitting in concordance that the little things really haven't added anything except more bugs and making the game more work like and we all want a more simple, fun, addictive form of FM we can pick up and play.