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tmolvik

Sorry but I needed to get this off my chest...

151 posts in this topic

I am sure this post could have been posted as a response to any of the soon hundreds of shot/goal-ratio articles, but I decided to post it here. If you tired of this topic, just don't read this post... icon_smile.gif

I've read most threads on the shot/goal-ratio in these forums, and although it's the bug (and yes, it is a bug no matter how tactic-fanatics want to look at it) that has made me stop playing the game, I was planning to not get involved in this discussion. However, enough is enough, and the responses from some of the players in here are just so provocative that I can't shut up anymore.

Let's start with the beginning.. FM2008 comes out, a game which in previous versions has made millions of "managers" scream in agony or beeing over the moon after Heskey finally has scored a goal (Either it was his first goal of the season against their team of for it). One of the main sales points of this game has been "Match Engine Improvements" and "Easier To Use". Let's look at those two headliners for a while.

For us who has played this game since the first version, we have always been overwhelmed by the realism in the game. It has always been far better than its competitors, but was it maybe better before it became the money-machine it is right now? Before they're pushed to make a new version with plenty of new features every year? There is no doubt that it is still the best manager game out there, but the increasing amount of bugs, flaws and inconsistency for every version is worrying. In this version we are expecting the final(?) patch in February, aproxomately 8 months before we will see FM 2009. How will this affect the work on FM 2009 and is this fair on the customers that bought the game 4 months ago? I will just let this question hanging, as it will only start a playable/unplayable discussion which is totally useless. The game is technically playable, but that doesn't mean that it holds what it promises...

The main reason for writing this post was the shot/goals ratio, and the discussions that has followed afte this issue first was presented. Befor the patch, the main issues for me related to the match engine, was the missed penalties and the closing down bug. After the patch, shots/goals is by far the worst. What makes it even more annoying is that SI denies to acknowledge it as a bug (which I guess, means that it will not be fixed in the patch), and the a-typic answer for all the tactic-fanatics, saying "It's you tactics".

Well.. Let's try to look at real life football. I know that there was a post where some guy compared the shot/goals ratio in his game with real stats from the same league, however this comparison har many possible foults. First of all, I don't see the s/g-ratio as a problem in games not played by human managers. Comparing a whole season in FM using all teams, will therefore not give any good answers. The other answers which all players bringing this issue up is getting from other forum users is the "it's your tactics-response". Again, let's go back to reality.. Is there anyone here who actually think that if Manchester United in a regular 4-4-2 formation, fireing 40 shots a game will not score a goal with world class players? First of all, could anyone please present me with match stats from a regular game where it says 30-40 chances? And second, if it should happend in one game (sometimes it seems like the ball nevner will go in), it won't repeat itself week in and week out. Third, If I can trust the match commentary (which I hope I can), it is not like the shots are beeing fired from 50 yards, meaning that this is not either the "solution". Yeah, maybe som of the shots are of crappy quality, but not all of them. Most likely not even 50% if your team is packed with world class players.

Well maybe the player has a low morale you say. Yes, maybe he has. But even if Berbatov wants to leave Tottenham, Drogba is missing Mourinho and Anelka always is on the move, you don't see them suddenly turn in to shitty players, firing every ball towards the corner flag..

"AI has "cracked" your tactic" many is saying.. Well it's not like a teams tactic is as secret as the Coca Cola recipe. A opposition club which uses all of the analyzing tools, 100 hours of video footage and whos attending your games, has no more problem of cracking your tactic than it has to crack open its eggs in the morning. As I am from Norway I painfully had to watch Rosenborg winning over 10 years in a row. It was not because none of the other teams (who played almost the same team every year) did not know how Rosenborg played, it was because Rosenborg plainly was better than it's opposition. They rarely even changed their tactics playing away, but still one most of their matches. Never did suddenly all teams start to win against them with only creating 3 chances, while Rosenborg started to loose all their matches still creating 30. When it first happened it was of course because the other teams got smarter, but mostly because the strenght of the clubs became more equal. Therefore it is not realistic that a team should suddenly start loosing towards almost any opponent, just because they have "cracked" the tactic. And what are the odds that evry AI-manager cracks it at the same time? Also, why should it have any effect on the efficiency of Fernando Torres og Cristiano Ronaldo's shots? I see in FM's advertising that Ray Houghton is one of the mater minds behind the match engine.. I can not remember that Liverpool in their glory days changed tactics every other week, just because the opponent knew how they played.

The "easier to play" was also mentioned it the ad of this game. I know that it's more about the interface than the difficulty, but it is no doubt that SI hopes to attract many of the potential customers that up to now has looked at FM as an impossible and advanced spreadsheet. The advisor is therefore a nice addition for those players, and although I ofcourse turned it of after cheking what it was, I never once saw it tutoring me on how an extreme difference there is in having match tempo set at 5 instead of 6. Or short passes 3 insted of 4. Could somebody please tell them that it is the difference between victory and failure? And that they need to use about 20-30 minutes in front of every game to change their tactics to get a decent result? If they don't, just forget about 4-4-2, 4-5-1 or any of the other "old fashioned" tactics. Go to the tactics section of the forum and download a tactic that has "craked" the Match Engine for you. It doesn't matter if you have slow or fast players. If you're in Premier League or in Serie C. The dowloaded tactic will make you successful. All honors to those who has implemented thos tactics, but excuse me when I say that I have yet to se a team playing 2-2-3-2-1 in the Champions League...

Where are the players in all this? When did a world class striker become more useless than a third division player, just because another manager know how the team plays. In this game Peter Shilton could do a comeback, beeing much better than Peter Cech, just because the tactics are cracked (of course Cech would get a 6 or 7 no matter if he did not make a single save throughout the whole game while Shilton got a 6 making 7 impossible saves, but that is another story).

So what are we left with? There is still no doubt that this is the greatest manager game. For those of you who now are preparing to cut my head of because this is just whining, lets me just say a few things. I've been both successful and been not given a new contract in the game, but that does not change any aspects of the game. I too agree that it should not be as easy as just making sure that you have 11 eligable players for your team and press "Play Match". I also hope that stats, attributes and different mentalities will play a great role in the game. I don't want it to be a game where you win as long as you buy the best players, but still it must have some kind of realism. Today it is the opposite. Tactics counts for a lot more than your players, and that is not realistic. It's almost as Mourinho said it about his pies and eggs. You need good eggs to make a decent pie icon_smile.gif

I've written this more in frustration than anything else, so I am not really trying to start a new discussion. I feel that my point here should be quite obvious, and if neither the forum members or SI agrees with me, than I might just have to realize that the FM series is not what it was, and that its might not be a game for me anymore. As many of you most likely have understood, this post is more than just about the s/g-problem. There are plenty of other issues, bugs and problems that annoys me and that I could have brought up, but the s/g-thing only shows how divied it is possible to be about the same game. I still want to see that person who actually feels that the game would be more unrealistic if the s/g-ratio was tweaked a bit. That person should maybe start developing handball-manager 2009 icon_wink.gif

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I am sure this post could have been posted as a response to any of the soon hundreds of shot/goal-ratio articles, but I decided to post it here. If you tired of this topic, just don't read this post... icon_smile.gif

I've read most threads on the shot/goal-ratio in these forums, and although it's the bug (and yes, it is a bug no matter how tactic-fanatics want to look at it) that has made me stop playing the game, I was planning to not get involved in this discussion. However, enough is enough, and the responses from some of the players in here are just so provocative that I can't shut up anymore.

Let's start with the beginning.. FM2008 comes out, a game which in previous versions has made millions of "managers" scream in agony or beeing over the moon after Heskey finally has scored a goal (Either it was his first goal of the season against their team of for it). One of the main sales points of this game has been "Match Engine Improvements" and "Easier To Use". Let's look at those two headliners for a while.

For us who has played this game since the first version, we have always been overwhelmed by the realism in the game. It has always been far better than its competitors, but was it maybe better before it became the money-machine it is right now? Before they're pushed to make a new version with plenty of new features every year? There is no doubt that it is still the best manager game out there, but the increasing amount of bugs, flaws and inconsistency for every version is worrying. In this version we are expecting the final(?) patch in February, aproxomately 8 months before we will see FM 2009. How will this affect the work on FM 2009 and is this fair on the customers that bought the game 4 months ago? I will just let this question hanging, as it will only start a playable/unplayable discussion which is totally useless. The game is technically playable, but that doesn't mean that it holds what it promises...

The main reason for writing this post was the shot/goals ratio, and the discussions that has followed afte this issue first was presented. Befor the patch, the main issues for me related to the match engine, was the missed penalties and the closing down bug. After the patch, shots/goals is by far the worst. What makes it even more annoying is that SI denies to acknowledge it as a bug (which I guess, means that it will not be fixed in the patch), and the a-typic answer for all the tactic-fanatics, saying "It's you tactics".

Well.. Let's try to look at real life football. I know that there was a post where some guy compared the shot/goals ratio in his game with real stats from the same league, however this comparison har many possible foults. First of all, I don't see the s/g-ratio as a problem in games not played by human managers. Comparing a whole season in FM using all teams, will therefore not give any good answers. The other answers which all players bringing this issue up is getting from other forum users is the "it's your tactics-response". Again, let's go back to reality.. Is there anyone here who actually think that if Manchester United in a regular 4-4-2 formation, fireing 40 shots a game will not score a goal with world class players? First of all, could anyone please present me with match stats from a regular game where it says 30-40 chances? And second, if it should happend in one game (sometimes it seems like the ball nevner will go in), it won't repeat itself week in and week out. Third, If I can trust the match commentary (which I hope I can), it is not like the shots are beeing fired from 50 yards, meaning that this is not either the "solution". Yeah, maybe som of the shots are of crappy quality, but not all of them. Most likely not even 50% if your team is packed with world class players.

Well maybe the player has a low morale you say. Yes, maybe he has. But even if Berbatov wants to leave Tottenham, Drogba is missing Mourinho and Anelka always is on the move, you don't see them suddenly turn in to shitty players, firing every ball towards the corner flag..

"AI has "cracked" your tactic" many is saying.. Well it's not like a teams tactic is as secret as the Coca Cola recipe. A opposition club which uses all of the analyzing tools, 100 hours of video footage and whos attending your games, has no more problem of cracking your tactic than it has to crack open its eggs in the morning. As I am from Norway I painfully had to watch Rosenborg winning over 10 years in a row. It was not because none of the other teams (who played almost the same team every year) did not know how Rosenborg played, it was because Rosenborg plainly was better than it's opposition. They rarely even changed their tactics playing away, but still one most of their matches. Never did suddenly all teams start to win against them with only creating 3 chances, while Rosenborg started to loose all their matches still creating 30. When it first happened it was of course because the other teams got smarter, but mostly because the strenght of the clubs became more equal. Therefore it is not realistic that a team should suddenly start loosing towards almost any opponent, just because they have "cracked" the tactic. And what are the odds that evry AI-manager cracks it at the same time? Also, why should it have any effect on the efficiency of Fernando Torres og Cristiano Ronaldo's shots? I see in FM's advertising that Ray Houghton is one of the mater minds behind the match engine.. I can not remember that Liverpool in their glory days changed tactics every other week, just because the opponent knew how they played.

The "easier to play" was also mentioned it the ad of this game. I know that it's more about the interface than the difficulty, but it is no doubt that SI hopes to attract many of the potential customers that up to now has looked at FM as an impossible and advanced spreadsheet. The advisor is therefore a nice addition for those players, and although I ofcourse turned it of after cheking what it was, I never once saw it tutoring me on how an extreme difference there is in having match tempo set at 5 instead of 6. Or short passes 3 insted of 4. Could somebody please tell them that it is the difference between victory and failure? And that they need to use about 20-30 minutes in front of every game to change their tactics to get a decent result? If they don't, just forget about 4-4-2, 4-5-1 or any of the other "old fashioned" tactics. Go to the tactics section of the forum and download a tactic that has "craked" the Match Engine for you. It doesn't matter if you have slow or fast players. If you're in Premier League or in Serie C. The dowloaded tactic will make you successful. All honors to those who has implemented thos tactics, but excuse me when I say that I have yet to se a team playing 2-2-3-2-1 in the Champions League...

Where are the players in all this? When did a world class striker become more useless than a third division player, just because another manager know how the team plays. In this game Peter Shilton could do a comeback, beeing much better than Peter Cech, just because the tactics are cracked (of course Cech would get a 6 or 7 no matter if he did not make a single save throughout the whole game while Shilton got a 6 making 7 impossible saves, but that is another story).

So what are we left with? There is still no doubt that this is the greatest manager game. For those of you who now are preparing to cut my head of because this is just whining, lets me just say a few things. I've been both successful and been not given a new contract in the game, but that does not change any aspects of the game. I too agree that it should not be as easy as just making sure that you have 11 eligable players for your team and press "Play Match". I also hope that stats, attributes and different mentalities will play a great role in the game. I don't want it to be a game where you win as long as you buy the best players, but still it must have some kind of realism. Today it is the opposite. Tactics counts for a lot more than your players, and that is not realistic. It's almost as Mourinho said it about his pies and eggs. You need good eggs to make a decent pie icon_smile.gif

I've written this more in frustration than anything else, so I am not really trying to start a new discussion. I feel that my point here should be quite obvious, and if neither the forum members or SI agrees with me, than I might just have to realize that the FM series is not what it was, and that its might not be a game for me anymore. As many of you most likely have understood, this post is more than just about the s/g-problem. There are plenty of other issues, bugs and problems that annoys me and that I could have brought up, but the s/g-thing only shows how divied it is possible to be about the same game. I still want to see that person who actually feels that the game would be more unrealistic if the s/g-ratio was tweaked a bit. That person should maybe start developing handball-manager 2009 icon_wink.gif

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Agree, certainly what you've said about tactics being the be-all and end-all, and the moronic 20 increment sliders are another valid point.

The thing is, if SI were in ANY WAY ambitious about their beloved series, they would SERIOUSLY CONSIDER ripping the whole thing up and starting afresh.

Never mind "New Skin!" or "New Features!!" (Who really gives a shiny sh1te about a skin you'll soon change anyway?), why not "New Game!"

Because all they've done since '05 is Re-hash and Re-package.

And it's all very tired and old.

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I am sure that Miles actually honestly thinks that this is the best game yet, and in many aspects I am sure it is. However if all the new features actually had worked properly it would be a GREAT game, but they're not, i.e s/g-ratio and board confidence.

I totally agree that they should dump new skins and fancy new features, but I don't think that this is up to neither Miles, Paul or anyone else. FM is a part of a company like any other game, and companies wants to make money. They don't make money on continuing to patch games until they are "perfect", they make them on presenting new products that we need to buy. So even if Miles or some of the others wanted to tweak this game until perfection, they wouldn't be granted permission to do this. Hopefully (although I don't like to pay full price for an update of an old game), there won't be too many new fancy features, but rather an upgrade and tweaking of 2008. We can all dream icon_wink.gif

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It's not about ripping the game up and starting again.

All they need to do is forget new developments for a year and tweak the game to make sure that all existing features are perfect , and then build from there.

But SI must realise , that making people wait 5 months for a final release of the game with a proper patch just isn't acceptable.

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i got through half of your thread and gave up....so sorry

i kind of agree BUT

this game deserves soooooo much praise and i hope they keep producing this game unlike LMA Manager

but yea it is important that this game maintains its standards

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BobbyB123:

It's not about ripping the game up and starting again.

All they need to do is forget new developments for a year and tweak the game to make sure that all existing features are perfect , and then build from there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree that 08 and some of the New features need to be worked on,and before more new ideas are implemented in 09 these and the game should be running as intended.Now you now people will say that this will be sorted after the new patch,but then others will say it's still not right.

So why not use what is there in what will be 8.0.2 and then if need be correct the other issues this patch may throw up to at least get a great out of the box game for 09.Leave adding new things out of 09 to make the game the best it can be,now same again a lot of people will say that's nothing but an update thier paying for,but surely a full working game that needs very little doing to it is what everyone wants.

This could then become the platform to take the game to the next level and give an even more fantastic gaming experience for novice to old hand who plays the game.

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It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet.

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I think that what most of you are saying is what most of us really want, but as I mentioned I find it quite unlikely that it will happen. Considering that the active users on this forum only make a few percent (if even that much) of the people buying the game, SEGA/SI can't sell FM2009 as an advanced patch for FM2008. Even if the active user (us) and maybe even developers want it themselves.

Of course it would be interesting to hear SI's own thoughts about this approach for the next game, but I'm afraid that it then will turn into more of a disussion of if anythings really wrong with this one...

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:

Agree, certainly what you've said about tactics being the be-all and end-all, and the moronic 20 increment sliders are another valid point.

The thing is, if SI were in ANY WAY ambitious about their beloved series, they would SERIOUSLY CONSIDER ripping the whole thing up and starting afresh.

Never mind "New Skin!" or "New Features!!" (Who really gives a shiny sh1te about a skin you'll soon change anyway?), why not "New Game!"

Because all they've done since '05 is Re-hash and Re-package.

And it's all very tired and old. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if everyone has forgotten but there was a time where there would be a completely fresh CM/FM, the following year would be pretty much a data update with a new league/feature or two, then the following year again it would be a fresh game.

I think everyone can agree that things are geting a bit overfamiliar and tired now. Between FM05 and FM07 it seems to have slouched, I don't anticipate FM09 like I did CM03 or such.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Came in here to say exactly that icon14.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aston_martin:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Came in here to say exactly that icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It absolutely has- Ive seen enough glimpses (particularly pre-patch) to see that the match engine has the potential to be an absolute delight.

But what annoys me is that the game was quite obviously released too early, and the way SI seems unprepared to accept any of the quite justified criticism levelled at SI because of this.

I think many are frustrated not because of issues but because essentially 8.01 shouldve been the quality we got out of the box.

I thought SI moved from Eidos because of the same issue with CM4- yet a call was quite clearly made to release FM08 with a pretty major bug in the match engine, and without a release day patch being guaranteed.

Im sure most would prefer the release being delayed, rather than wait for 3 mths after release for a patch that we can only hope makes FM08 the best yet.

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It's nice to see a thread were everybody agrees for a change icon_smile.gif You make a good point about the SI/Eidos seperation, but unfortunately I don't think any company is better than the other when it comes to making money. Shareholders and investors wants their cut, and by delaying a game for 3 months, you're kind of cutting out 25% of the annual profit by releasing a game every year. You won't see FIFA 2009,5 either, and that's a bit of the problem. Pressure is high but the time schedule is tight, and the outcome is what we see. Like you say they should also be a bit more prepared to accept the critisism (although I still think they are better than many other publishers, who just don't give a damn), and when a thread like the main one about the s/g-ratio consists of about 16 pages, it doesn't hold up to almost deny that it's an issue.

But I agree with everyone here.. It has the potential, and there is nothing more I would like to see than it to succeed. Come on SI icon_smile.gif

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I'm quite pleasently surprised that this hasn't degenerated into the usual drivel that passes on here as discussion.

I think the effort you put in to your first post is keeping the thread together.

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I agree completely. I too am extremely frustrated with this game.

My opinion is that the problem is this new approach they have to the game. In the past, as someone else said, they would come with a new version (match engine) every 3-4 years.

I think that back in 2005 they had an ambitious idea: to create a do all, upgrading match engine. So perhaps their thinking was: we will change this module and that module and all of the sudden the game will be different - all at the programmers' control. As a parenthesis, this same approach is currently the practice with the NBA live series, NHL series (and in general EA titles).

Unfortunately, now they reached a level of complexity so when they change something 15 other things change as well. The fact that the result is completely unpredictable is evident by the multitude of issues that appear after every new patch.

So I will wait until February or whatever it is when they said they will bring a new patch but I am very skeptical about it. I do not remember one time in the history of CM/FM when a patch that makes the game perfect would take this long (almost 4 months). CM4 was one buggy version and we waited two months for a patch but none of the patches would create bigger problems than they fixed.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aston_martin:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Came in here to say exactly that icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It absolutely has- Ive seen enough glimpses (particularly pre-patch) to see that the match engine has the potential to be an absolute delight.

But what annoys me is that the game was quite obviously released too early, and the way SI seems unprepared to accept any of the quite justified criticism levelled at SI because of this.

I think many are frustrated not because of issues but because essentially 8.01 shouldve been the quality we got out of the box.

I thought SI moved from Eidos because of the same issue with CM4- yet a call was quite clearly made to release FM08 with a pretty major bug in the match engine, and without a release day patch being guaranteed.

Im sure most would prefer the release being delayed, rather than wait for 3 mths after release for a patch that we can only hope makes FM08 the best yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All great points. It's just as fun to watch some people defend the game to the point of hilarity as well as people who don't have a clue and needlessly complain about being 'cheated' just the same.

The game looks great, it just needs a couple tiny tweaks to be as good as it promises.

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Excellent post, well done on posting a well thought out and literate dicussion

I am very worried about the future though. A Si response to one of my posts in another thread stated they did indeed believe this was the best version yet.

If they HONESTLY believe this then there is no way FM will never improve. Of course it is more likely to be PR spin. I hope there have been meetings in Si towers about how much of a shambles FM08 has been and what they are going to do about FM09. If there hasn't I then I am even more worried. I really don't know what to think... do they really think this is the best version yet ?

I think maybe the code has become so complex that adding even a small feature just throws everything out of whack. A year goes by and we get about 3 new features and the entire game breaks. I don't envy them but the product just isn't up to standard anymore.

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I think the whole patching to fix the game is more of a general , consistant problem. Rather than simply being isolated to this game.

The problem I have , is that 7.0.2 , was a very good game. You'd have got alot of takers for a database/graphics update slapped on top of that. The problem is that SI seem to make the game worse (In terms of features that are continued) that the previous games last patch. Which makes you think of the one step forward and two steps back kind of idea.

I'm not saying that 7.0.2 was perfect , just that, outside of the newer features for the new game + the database update , its a far superior game as things currently stand.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BobbyB123:

I think the whole patching to fix the game is more of a general , consistant problem. Rather than simply being isolated to this game.

The problem I have , is that 7.0.2 , was a very good game. You'd have got alot of takers for a database/graphics update slapped on top of that. The problem is that SI seem to make the game worse (In terms of features that are continued) that the previous games last patch. Which makes you think of the one step forward and two steps back kind of idea.

I'm not saying that 7.0.2 was perfect , just that, outside of the newer features for the new game + the database update , its a far superior game as things currently stand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was thinking about this too. If they updated the database and added the feature with the faces of generated players to the 2007 version I would still play that.

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Well said. The last FM I played was FM05, I skipped 06 and 07, but 08 isn't a great deal different which makes it disappointing. I do like the new skin but a new skin does not make a new game.

I'm largely frustrated that no further innovation has been made to tactics, the way they are presented and match day. As I've mentioned in other posts, it's such a core part of the game but it's stagnating. Sure the match engine has been tweaked but the presentation hasn't changed since CM4, which makes me wonder where SI are spending their development time.

Any other type of game and it would've been completely revamped by now, but 6 versions on and we still get the same thing each release. It's depressing.

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How can you think there's not much difference between 05 and 08?

Have you played 05 recently? Its a massively inferior game.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

How can you think there's not much difference between 05 and 08?

Have you played 05 recently? Its a massively inferior game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course a three year old game should be inferior.

Obviously there have been added features that you would expect since '05, but do you think the match engine has progressed significantly since '05 ?

The training certainly hasn't, still the same crude which nobody can justify and other fundamental features haven't improved greatly since then.

When are SI going to stop this repeatable cycle of releasing a new tiresome version with a few tweaks here and there.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Smoothiebaloo:

I am just wondering, did FM06 or FM07 get as many complaints as FM08 gets? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same, just about different things.

It's a routine for some people and often serves only to cloud any real issues.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gazzamcg:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

How can you think there's not much difference between 05 and 08?

Have you played 05 recently? Its a massively inferior game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course a three year old game should be inferior.

Obviously there have been added features that you would expect since '05, but do you think the match engine has progressed significantly since '05 ?

The training certainly hasn't, still the same crude which nobody can justify and other fundamental features haven't improved greatly since then.

When are SI going to stop this repeatable cycle of releasing a new tiresome version with a few tweaks here and there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the match engine is far superior, especially to 5.0.0. The training is far superior under the hood, despite looking similar.

The only things that's similar, though it's still been noticeably improved, is the transfers.

The contract negotiation back then is much worse than it is now. Zaccardo wanting a raise of £66k a week over his £4k wages for example.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Smoothiebaloo:

I am just wondering, did FM06 or FM07 get as many complaints as FM08 gets? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but they were spread out over many different bugs.

The main problem on the forums is that the complaints are all about the same 5 or 6 bugs.

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I think ifllorescu has a lot of good points that others also mentions.. Is the code really getting so complicated that it actually brings the game backwards instead of forwards? The same will then be the reason of why it takes so long to release a patch, and why they still not might make the game any better... If so, priority one must be to get a match engine that is stable enough to handle changes and improvements without messing up the game.

Still after reading my own thread here, I was just starting to think if many of the posts in the forum here are a case of "shooting the pianist". Is it SI that decides to develp the game this way, or is it really SEGA or others that are pushing the game in the wrong direction? There is a lot of pressure from the forum users here, but no matter how bad this or any future versions will be, you would never experience SI go out and say "We're sorry, and agrees that the game is crap". That would be a corporate suicide, and not accepted by SEGA or anyone else connected to SI. Therefore they have to work as kind of a shield towards the ones who really is to blame, which makes us even more frustrating as we then think that we don't even get any understanding from the ones who actually invented this game and should treat it as their baby.. It's just a thought, and I don't even know if I agree with myself, but it's worth taking into consideration, as many discussions easily will go in wrong directions if this is the case. As we all remember SI and Eidos splitted up for some of the similar reasons...

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

How can you think there's not much difference between 05 and 08?

Have you played 05 recently? Its a massively inferior game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My comment was in terms of view matches, tactical settings, match statistics etc which is the core component of the game. The match engine itself that moves all the 'lady bugs' around is superior but all the pieces surrounding that hasn't.

If this was a RTS, a developer would've changed the graphics by now, enhanced the tactical interface and added more features to it. (Note this is context with tactics and match day, not the game overall).

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Ok I gethca. No there' not much difference there.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

Ok I gethca. No there' not much difference there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is largley where my disappointment lies. The tactical part of the game could be enhanced further and with more statistics provided, we seem to only get the bare minimum.

Action Zones for instance hasn't change for I don't know how long, but this could be developed further either by splitting the possession statistics down to positions or each each third split into 3 seperate areas: Left, Middle & Right.

That's just one thing that springs to mind.

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FM2008 is a great game but is not close to be perfect. You can't play it as you like, there are some things that you should have in mind, as avoiding some tactics that now don't work, pay attention to tactics...

I agree that a team with best players will be a top club, even if they are playing awful for their level. game should focus more on interactions, ME should be tweaked to have good results, and some things must be more comprehensive.

At my current game I'm in 2024 with a non-league club brought to EPL. After finishing 17,16 and 11, last season a lots of teams performed bad and I managed to finish 3rd with 65 points (chelsea and wet ham managed 86-85). This year board expects me to finish at least 5th, despite my players are useless (I only play with welsh players and chaiman sold the best).

This season I played charity trophy, because I won FA cup (easiest pairings and luck against Arsenal). I was on holiday (I haven't noticed) and lost 4-0, because my players are crap and team did not use my tactics. My team only relies on my tactics, but board also expects a top performing from me. If I don't have success I'm sure I'll sacked. It's not fair :/

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So mate, you think FM2008 has a PA of 200 and CA of 78, but sadly stuck in a smallish club without much facility and coaches with only 3-4 stars ability... icon_eek.gificon_razz.gif

I agree...100% icon14.gif

icon_biggrin.gif

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Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals??

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How much different a thread can be when the OP is decent and written nicely. Unfortunately this is such a huge game that one change affects a lot of things. So now SI can't implement serious changes without changing other stuff. The s/g ratio right now is an example, they need to fix the match engine and the way matches are played out rather than just up the s/g ratio. That's a pretty big issue by itself. This means we're stuck with small enhancements unless they decide not to release the game for one year. There's been a lot of changes to the ME this year? It's being fixed right now, so that hasn't worked out well has it...The all-new confidence is a joke. I'm sure SI means well and these are good improvements if they work. But one year(or even less taking into account patches for the previous game etc.) is just not enough to release a much better, improved game with new and working features imho. If it can be done, great. I'll hang my head in shame and go buy it. But it seems like that's not the case anymore.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by achilles elbow:

Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats precisely what the problem is.

This is why it annoys me when you get some people making assumptions about the issue- they presume that its just people moaning as they cannot win.

In my experience this does not affect your results- although it increases the amount of times you will get beaten by a team creating nowhere near the amout of chances that user tactics can create. Its just a very annoying issue as it makes watching games very tedious- even just on key highlights.

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Also from experience if you just use the supplied tactics you dont get affected as much as you do with custom tactics.

I really want to get into the tactical side and teamtalks, but have just got fed up with a) having to workaround issues, b) having to workout SIs interpretation of football in terms of what affects what and what is effective under certain conditions, as imo there ideas do not always match my perception of real life (note I say perception here!).

So if you frustrated by FM08 give the built-in tactics a try.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by achilles elbow:

Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats precisely what the problem is.

This is why it annoys me when you get some people making assumptions about the issue- they presume that its just people moaning as they cannot win.

In my experience this does not affect your results- although it increases the amount of times you will get beaten by a team creating nowhere near the amout of chances that user tactics can create. Its just a very annoying issue as it makes watching games very tedious- even just on key highlights. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with this quite strongly. Statistically the goals ratio is about right for scored and conceeded but the creation of clear chances not converted, in the match engine view anyway, is way too high.

Also, have they done something to reduce shot power and players going round the keeper? I haven't seen much of either in this version of FM.

Very good original post by the way. Seems to sum up a lot of the issues and I'm glad this thread at least hasn't turned into a row like most have.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by achilles elbow:

Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats precisely what the problem is.

This is why it annoys me when you get some people making assumptions about the issue- they presume that its just people moaning as they cannot win.

In my experience this does not affect your results- although it increases the amount of times you will get beaten by a team creating nowhere near the amout of chances that user tactics can create. Its just a very annoying issue as it makes watching games very tedious- even just on key highlights. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks God someone else has eventually seens sense.

I've been posting that for weeks now and everyone else has just continued to rant on and on about Super keepers icon_rolleyes.gif.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thunder God:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with this quite strongly. Statistically the goals ratio is about right for scored and conceeded but the creation of clear chances not converted, in the match engine view anyway, is way too high.

Also, have they done something to reduce shot power and players going round the keeper? I haven't seen much of either in this version of FM.

Very good original post by the way. Seems to sum up a lot of the issues and I'm glad this thread at least hasn't turned into a row like most have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think finishing as a whole was nerfed for 8.01.

As imo the release version (for all its closing down issues) was brilliant from an attacking perspective- the sheer range and variety of finishes was superb. The things I miss most was:

* The frequency of power shots- after all with the new light balls even I can hit screamers, so why this was toned down so much is beyond me- as really any pro will be able to hit a ball with power, accuracy is another thing- so they shouldve kept power but tweaked the accurarcy.

* Curling shots- very rare in 8.01, and I used to love it when a player was 1v1 at an angle and would curl it delicately around the keeper, even when they went narrowly wide it was cool.

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Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).

What I will say regarding shots-to-goals ratio is that IRL, from what I've seen, the away team tends to score a greater percentage of goals from shots on target (SoT). I don't know why this is, but a cursory look at last week's chances reveals this to appear true. E.g., many away teams had a goals from SoT percentage of between 25-50%, whilst home teams averaged around 10-40%. This could well be down to the fact that home teams will usually simply create more chances.

Hmmm, more stuff to ponder. I want a job as a football statician. icon_mad.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by achilles elbow:

Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats precisely what the problem is.

This is why it annoys me when you get some people making assumptions about the issue- they presume that its just people moaning as they cannot win.

In my experience this does not affect your results- although it increases the amount of times you will get beaten by a team creating nowhere near the amout of chances that user tactics can create. Its just a very annoying issue as it makes watching games very tedious- even just on key highlights. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks God someone else has eventually seens sense.

I've been posting that for weeks now and everyone else has just continued to rant on and on about Super keepers icon_rolleyes.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eventually? Lol- I saw it from day one, I think many others have too. Pretty sure this thread focuses on poor finishing and not superkeepers:

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4982071363

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:

Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant speak for others, but when my striker/s only has the keeper to beat 10+ times per game then those chances are clearcut.

If they arent then its down to the 2D not showing correctly what the match engine is calculating.

I know many will just go by the match stats- but I tend to watch the games, and this is why this issue annoys me- it just makes watching the 2D very tedious.

So glad that by using the builtin tactics that this issue is much improved.

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tmolvik, i give you 100% right. Unfortunatly SI won't which will be the reason that FM08 is my first- and last- game of SI. I really get ****ed off by those hard-core SI-fans who scream: "it's your tactics, it's like that in real life"

While people rant about only one aspect (missed chances, super-GK,..) it is obviuos all these thing belong together, because they are all part of the same crappy match engine. SI has to do someting about the whole aspect of the match engine or the game will stay a flop.

Personnaly i find it unacceptable that a game that has come out end of octobre only will work in february, and even that is not yet for sure.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thunder God:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with this quite strongly. Statistically the goals ratio is about right for scored and conceeded but the creation of clear chances not converted, in the match engine view anyway, is way too high.

Also, have they done something to reduce shot power and players going round the keeper? I haven't seen much of either in this version of FM.

Very good original post by the way. Seems to sum up a lot of the issues and I'm glad this thread at least hasn't turned into a row like most have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think finishing as a whole was nerfed for 8.01.

As imo the release version (for all its closing down issues) was brilliant from an attacking perspective- the sheer range and variety of finishes was superb. The things I miss most was:

* The frequency of power shots- after all with the new light balls even I can hit screamers, so why this was toned down so much is beyond me- as really any pro will be able to hit a ball with power, accuracy is another thing- so they shouldve kept power but tweaked the accurarcy.

* Curling shots- very rare in 8.01, and I used to love it when a player was 1v1 at an angle and would curl it delicately around the keeper, even when they went narrowly wide it was cool. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, really missing all of the above, particularly miss glorious curling long shots.

It would be nice to see a player go around a keeper once and a while too.

Becomes very depressing to see strikers pass the ball into keepers midrifts all the time icon_frown.gif

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I really do think that the match engine is really struggling to give you a visual reprensentation of what is going on in the game, chances that look like great chances often being saved/missed for example.

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I still have a big problem with tactics, mainly because often it feels like a lottery and often I have no idea where I'm going wrong. I'll be doing really well, but will suddenly hit a form slump, even though I seem to be creating the same chances. Do I tweak it or do I keep it the same? Which parts of my tactic are being exposed? I'd like much more interaction from coaches and assistant managers here, especially for those who don't have the time/patience to watch matches on full to find out where a tactic has suddenly started to break down.

I also like the slider system, but find it quite limited. If I want my fullback or centre-half to make sure they stay goal-side of a player, I have to try and find the correct combination of team instructions, player instructions and opposition instructions. Why don't I have the option to go to my defender and tell him precisely where he should be on the pitch? Why can't I tell my wide men that it's really important the team keeps it's shape against a certain team who can exploit it?

In essence, I guess I just don't feel in control of my team enough. The slider system for team instructions is fine, but individual player instructions to me don't feel personal enough. Where is the bread and butter stuff?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:

Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant speak for others, but when my striker/s only has the keeper to beat 10+ times per game then those chances are clearcut.

If they arent then its down to the 2D not showing correctly what the match engine is calculating.

I know many will just go by the match stats- but I tend to watch the games, and this is why this issue annoys me- it just makes watching the 2D very tedious.

So glad that by using the builtin tactics that this issue is much improved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that's not much of a solution, is it? For me the main thing that makes this game interesting is building your own tactics and trying your own ideas. If I can create a tactic that creates a lot of easy 1 on 1 chances it should mean I'm doing something right. Having to find a workaround by trying to create different types of chances totally spoils the enjoyment of the game for me. I could accept it if it was weird, unrealistic formations and tactics that did this but my slightly modified 4-4-2 diamond does it as well.

Although the scores are realistic (ie there doesn't seem to be too many or too few goals compared to RL) there is just too many chances in the game and way too many one on ones. It could be that SI took the wrong approach to fix those issues and instead of trying to reduce number of one on ones they reduced the possibility of scoring from one.

I still win most of my games but all this makes watching the game really tedious indeed. It annoys me to the point that I've stopped playing the game until the new patch arrives.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzdovan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:

Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant speak for others, but when my striker/s only has the keeper to beat 10+ times per game then those chances are clearcut.

If they arent then its down to the 2D not showing correctly what the match engine is calculating.

I know many will just go by the match stats- but I tend to watch the games, and this is why this issue annoys me- it just makes watching the 2D very tedious.

So glad that by using the builtin tactics that this issue is much improved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that's not much of a solution, is it? For me the main thing that makes this game interesting is building your own tactics and trying your own ideas. If I can create a tactic that creates a lot of easy 1 on 1 chances it should mean I'm doing something right. Having to find a workaround by trying to create different types of chances totally spoils the enjoyment of the game for me. I could accept it if it was weird, unrealistic formations and tactics that did this but my slightly modified 4-4-2 diamond does it as well.

Although the scores are realistic (ie there doesn't seem to be too many or too few goals compared to RL) there is just too many chances in the game and way too many one on ones. It could be that SI took the wrong approach to fix those issues and instead of trying to reduce number of one on ones they reduced the possibility of scoring from one.

I still win most of my games but all this makes watching the game really tedious indeed. It annoys me to the point that I've stopped playing the game until the new patch arrives. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not saying it is- but theres nothing wrong with posting it to help others who are frustrated with the game and want to play it is there?

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