A few questions on tactical sliders

[Lucozade1]

First question is to do with the mentality.

Can I take my striker out of the game by putting his mentality so far up? I dont think I fully understand the mentality bar and I think having him attackng too much pushes him so far up the pitch he never see's the ball much

Second question is about my defensive midfielder

He has very good creative skills and I want him every now and then to hit a ball from deep, over the top for my striker to run onto. Should I make his passing mixed or long? Should I make him cross often and from deep? Im not sure if the crossing bar's just come into play when on the wings or anywhere on the pitch.

Third question is about the run from deep option

I think this is more psychological but If i set run from deep to rarely I get a backwards arrow. Does this mean he will drop back or just stick to roughly his position until he collects the ball. I just always think cause i see the backwards arrow they will come back which i dont want

Last question is about closing down

I am sorta confused with this. If i set my striker to close down only in his own area, will he run back or will he just never close down. I ask this because i want my striker to just lurk around the oppositions defence and wait for us to win the ball and hit with a quick counter attack. I dont really want him to close down often.

While making this ive just thought, if i set my team to zonal marking, and have my midfielder close down the 'whole pitch' Will he just press in his zone or will he come out of his position to get near the ball

Sorry for the long post, im just trying to understand a few tactics as my team is a weak team and tactics are crucial for any success i get.

Thank you

[Lucozade1]

Also another quick question. If you give each player a certain instruction, will it override the 'team' instructions or will the team one give a certain mentality which each player the uses along with his personal ones

[drhay53]

If you give a player instruction, it will override any changes that shouts or team instructions would make to that instruction.

Other than that, I would really love to get some answers on the rest of your questions as well.

[PhroX]

First question is to do with the mentality.

Can I take my striker out of the game by putting his mentality so far up? I dont think I fully understand the mentality bar and I think having him attackng too much pushes him so far up the pitch he never see's the ball much

Yes, it certainly can. Having a striker on a very high mentality can be a good thing or a bad thing, but it really depends on how the rest of the team is set up. For example, if you've got two strikers, then, if you have one with a relatively low mentality, putting the others' high can be great as his partner is still close enough to support him. However, if you're playing with 1 up top, particularly if you've not got any players in the AM strata, then a very high mentality can isolate the striker.

Have a look at the mentalities the TC gives strikers by default to get a feel for what can work. That's not to say other settings can't work, but they're a good starting point.

Second question is about my defensive midfielder

He has very good creative skills and I want him every now and then to hit a ball from deep, over the top for my striker to run onto. Should I make his passing mixed or long? Should I make him cross often and from deep? Im not sure if the crossing bar's just come into play when on the wings or anywhere on the pitch.

I'd go for mixed passing with a fair bit of creative freedom (assuming his decisions attribute is good), combined with TTB mixed or often. This will give him the freedom to make what he judges to be the most appropriate passes. If he spots the ball over the top, there's a decent chance he'll try it, but he won't be pressurised into going for them when they're not on.

Don't know about the crossing though.

Third question is about the run from deep option

I think this is more psychological but If i set run from deep to rarely I get a backwards arrow. Does this mean he will drop back or just stick to roughly his position until he collects the ball. I just always think cause i see the backwards arrow they will come back which i dont want

He won't drop deeper, he just won't advance much. The arrow is a legacy from a older versions of FM.

Last question is about closing down

I am sorta confused with this. If i set my striker to close down only in his own area, will he run back or will he just never close down. I ask this because i want my striker to just lurk around the oppositions defence and wait for us to win the ball and hit with a quick counter attack. I dont really want him to close down often.

The point at which the player will close down depends on his position and your defensive line as well as the CD slider. A striker won't neccesarily wait until it's literally in his own area, but he won't be inclined to put pressure on the ball unless the opposition starts getting into your half. If you set it to the absolute minimum, then he won't really look to do much chasing at all; instead he'll hang around waiting for you to regain possesion.

While making this ive just thought, if i set my team to zonal marking, and have my midfielder close down the 'whole pitch' Will he just press in his zone or will he come out of his position to get near the ball

I'm not 100% on this, but I believe what happens is that his "zone" simply expands. To take an easier example than a MC, a full back with this won't go chasing off to the opposite corner flag, but he'll pressure any opponents on his wing well into their half (again, the exact place is dependent on things like defensive line and indeed the player's attributes).

Sorry for the long post, im just trying to understand a few tactics as my team is a weak team and tactics are crucial for any success i get.

Thank you

No prob, just hope some of what I've said is of use

[Cleon]

If you give a player instruction, it will override any changes that shouts or team instructions would make to that instruction.

Other than that, I would really love to get some answers on the rest of your questions as well.

It doesn't override shouts. For example if you gave someone short passing but asked the team to use hit it long shout, then they would hit it long but not as long as the other players. Shouts work in conjuction with your settings and act as modifiers.

First question is to do with the mentality.

Can I take my striker out of the game by putting his mentality so far up? I dont think I fully understand the mentality bar and I think having him attackng too much pushes him so far up the pitch he never see's the ball much

Yes you can have him too high. Ideally you want him involved as much as possible. You'll also want the midfield to offer him support and link up with them. So if he's too advanced he could be that far advanced that he sees little of the ball.

Second question is about my defensive midfielder

He has very good creative skills and I want him every now and then to hit a ball from deep, over the top for my striker to run onto. Should I make his passing mixed or long? Should I make him cross often and from deep? Im not sure if the crossing bar's just come into play when on the wings or anywhere on the pitch

Mixed passing all the way. That way, he can use his own judgement on what type of pass to attempt. If you limit the type of passes he can do, then you aren't gonna get him playing how you want.

Third question is about the run from deep option

I think this is more psychological but If i set run from deep to rarely I get a backwards arrow. Does this mean he will drop back or just stick to roughly his position until he collects the ball. I just always think cause i see the backwards arrow they will come back which i dont want

If he had a backward arrows it just means run from deep rarely. All it means is he will hardly ever make forward runs. It doesn't mean he'll drop further back or anything. Just purely that he won't attempt to run from deep often.

Last question is about closing down

I am sorta confused with this. If i set my striker to close down only in his own area, will he run back or will he just never close down. I ask this because i want my striker to just lurk around the oppositions defence and wait for us to win the ball and hit with a quick counter attack. I dont really want him to close down often.

Just means he will hardly ever close down. It doesn't mean he will drop back and closedown.

[Lucozade1]

Thanks cleon i appreciate that. I will take a look at my tactics and see what i can do.

[Lucozade1]

also thank you phrox, didnt notice your post until now. thanks

[drhay53]

It doesn't override shouts. For example if you gave someone short passing but asked the team to use hit it long shout, then they would hit it long but not as long as the other players. Shouts work in conjuction with your settings and act as modifiers.

I'm pretty positive this is not true.

The reason is two-fold - First, I started downloading tactics to get a feel for what different settings do, but in the framework of a tactic that already worked and not just blindly making one myself. I downloaded mr Hough's 41212 tactic, which has player instructions for every single instruction. I tried using shouts with the tactic and the shout will say "(pending)" for the entire 90 minute game. It never goes into effect because there are no instructions it can modify.

Second, I know for a fact it directly changes sliders for at least some shouts. For instance, the 'get ball forward' shout automatically changes my CD's passing to 'long' (fully to the right) which is frankly, not what I mean by get ball forward.

This is my biggest complaint about the shouts; it SHOULD just be a modifier based on current settings but it isn't. It changes sliders. They should either change that or allow you to make custom shouts, for instance get ball forward I would not have affect my CD's quite so much.

[isuckatfm]

What drhay53 said is correct. The shouts deal in absolutes. If a setting is already ticked manually by the user that value remains independent of any shouts made. It doesn't get modified relative to the shout.

[isuckatfm]

Last question is about closing down

I am sorta confused with this. If i set my striker to close down only in his own area, will he run back or will he just never close down. I ask this because i want my striker to just lurk around the oppositions defence and wait for us to win the ball and hit with a quick counter attack. I dont really want him to close down often.

1. mentality affects striker positioning relative to where the opposition have the ball. In a basic front two the lower mentality striker will drop deeper but even if both strikers have identical settings one will always remain higher. For lone strikers I can't comment with any certainty as I've never really experimented with it

2. marking ties into this. Man Tight will cause a striker to at times try to lock on to the opposition player near him. Timing and context is key here as well as relative positioning of the opposition. So what this means is depending on the context he might lock onto a CB or he might lock onto a DMC (or an opposition MC playing a holding role) with mentality linking back in to which happens relative to the context

3. Closing Down then comes into play relative to the man in possession. The higher the value the further a player will go to close down the ballcarrier. There are subtleties involved though. For example sometimes a low closing down player will get triggered to close down anyway simply because he is closest and no one else is closing down. Second is the impact of what teammates in and around the ballcarrier are doing

4. Attributes of Teamwork and Workrate impact on a player's desire to drop back to defend/press, and these attributes work in tandem with the aforementioned tactical settings. Determination may also play a role but that I am more uncertain of.

So to get what you desire at it's most extreme

- mentality 20 will have him hanging on the opposition line and trying more to trail to beat the line when the opposition clear the ball

- RFD often will get him to more regularly look to make runs beyond the opposition in expectation of a pass

- anticipation attribute is very important to this but personally I would avoid the 'likes to beat the offside trap' PPM if possible especially if anticipation is low (see Adebayor as an example of a player who will be caught offside a lot due to these two)

- Closing Down 1 will limit the extent to which he breaks from a central area on the opposition CBs to close down but as I mentioned above other things play into this

- with Man Tght marking in conjunction with the above he will typically lock on to the opposition CB(s) and then subject to attributes look to break away to find space when your team wins the ball back (roaming will also have an impact as will wideplay and where the space is available e.g. into the flanks where an opposition FB has pushed on)

- with Zonal Loose he won't get as close to the opposition CBs so when you win the ball back he will already have separation but you might desire the tightness Man Tight gives in order to push him right onto the opposition line for balls over the top but this may be detrimental in terms of keeping possession if you do not have a second striker or aggressive AMC to act as a link up man

The rest of the team's attributes and settings play into your tactical concept in an obvious manner also.

[dreghorn2]

What drhay53 said is correct. The shouts deal in absolutes. If a setting is already ticked manually by the user that value remains independent of any shouts made. It doesn't get modified relative to the shout.

Perhaps Cleon could reenter this thread for a moment and once again address the issue of shouts and their effects on sliders.

I ask this because i have come to believe that Cleons knowledge of the games mechanics is quite comprehensive and i am surprised that there is confusion over this relatively basic, yet extremely important issue.

Isuckatfm i have read a lot of your posts as well and i am not slighting yours or drhay53s opinion on this matter at all. I am just very very curious to know what is correct here because it is such a fundamental part of how i'm sure we all play the game.

In short i am confused.. LOL.. however once again, this is important to know.

[Saevel]

What drhay53 said is correct. The shouts deal in absolutes. If a setting is already ticked manually by the user that value remains independent of any shouts made. It doesn't get modified relative to the shout.

I second this.

[dreghorn2]

I second this.

I have always believed this as well.. now i am not as sure.

[PeeKay]

Let me get this right - "shouts" do not overide a manually set player instruction? That has to be wrong.

If I manually set all player instruction for my team then shouts will have no affect on the team. Why have shouts if any customisation will stop it from working?

[Cleon]

Looks like I was wrong, as I don't use shouts at all. I just remember reading something by Ov and I must have miss read what he put. My bad. Shouts are pretty useless then....a pointless feature really if they don't override manual set instructions. As majority of players will make custom changes to settings, as the default are pretty pants for a lot of position imo.

[dreghorn2]

Thank you for taking the time to answer this Cleon, i appreciate it.

[Saevel]

Looks like I was wrong, as I don't use shouts at all. I just remember reading something by Ov and I must have miss read what he put. My bad. Shouts are pretty useless then....a pointless feature really if they don't override manual set instructions. As majority of players will make custom changes to settings, as the default are pretty pants for a lot of position imo.

I think it's because the tactical system in FM isn't really designed with Shouts and the Tactics Creator in mind. That was added as an abstraction to make the system easier to relate to for people who care about football, but don't really care about sliders and game mechanics.

I remember actually discussing this with a developer here on the forums a while ago, and I think the reason why they didn't want shouts to override was because it's all very situational, and hard to predict when you want an override and when you don't. For instance, you might have an absolutely horrible passer playing in one position, and you've manually set his passing to very short, then you use a shout to make your team play long balls.. hard to know if you'd want to keep your awful passer passing safe, or if you'd want him to adapt to the team and try long balls anyway, you know?

[Cleon]

Ov Collyer thinks they should override to some extendt after reading some of his posts today. Which I agree with.

[drhay53]

Ov Collyer thinks they should override to some extendt after reading some of his posts today. Which I agree with.

They don't, I'm positive. Because if they did, they would still go into effect when all instructions where ticked off.

The effect is secondary. For example if you have all passing instructions ticked, but not creative freedom or tempo, the effects of changing those two through your shout could look like you've actually changed passing instructions when you haven't.

I agree with you BTW, the shouts in their current form are pretty much useless. Well, not useless, just not refined enough to be used as a good tactical tweak yet.

The future of shouts IMO is in user-specific shouts, that also modify instructions you've ticked. For instance, I have a team right now that I like to occasionally through the ball forward to a couple of very pacy players. I don't want to play that way for 90 minutes because my team gets tired chasing the ball up the field. However I don't want to use 'get ball forward' or 'pass into space' because a) I have specific instructions given there, and b) I don't want ALL of my players with fully long passing! I should be able to create a shout myself that increases the passing of my DL, DMC, and MCLeft by 25% of their current value. The possibilities for quick and simple tactical tweaking with user-specified shouts is endless.

[isuckatfm]

You could do it yourself but I'll throw up the screenshots anyway

Initial settings of Passing Style, note Bosingwa ticked to play @ 1

In game I 'shout' pump the ball long and everyone of my back 4 except for Bosingwa get put to 20.

Of course there could be some modification after the fact but people used to think the same about the Team Mentality slider modifying an individually ticked mentality slider, but it turned out that once ticked that was the input value. I don't see why this would be any different and if it were I'm fairly certain the manual would mention that.

[PeeKay]

Well done, isuckatfm, that is quite conclusive.

I am going to be blunt and say shouts are crap. Imagine that you are standing on the touch line, in the rain, losing 1-0 and you ask the team to pump the ball forward to get the equaliser but the DMC you told to play it short at the beginning of the season (when you created the tactic) still does the short pass back to his defender, arg!!!

The shout should have acted like a modifier, moving the slider 5 notches (or shout louder is 10 notches)