England - The Road to 2012 (now featuring Wayne Rooney) but not his touch

[Razzler]

Part of Roy's evil master plan, picking the worst players so he'll get only half the blame

He's already said 'Carroll is good, Kenny is really convinced about him' or something. i.e. I am not convinced, just going by what Kenny says

[Rob1981]

Yeah, he did basically say that he had some reservations about Carroll but Kenny reassured him.

Strong leadership Roy

[Leppard]

Made up Carrick declining a call-up? Nope

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/9271052/Manchester-Uniteds-Michael-Carrick-told-FA-he-did-not-want-to-be-bit-part-player-at-Euro-2012.html

Completely agree with him. If, with the season he's had, he's still not considered good enough to start ahead of the other four central midfielders, two of which are Lampard and Gerrard, then why the hell would he want to be in the squad? Hodgson wanted to choose him as a standby anyway.

[Icondacarver]

What a joke, glad he isn't in the squad then. I'll only go if I start, ******

Woy only wanted him for the backup list. Lampard, Barry & Gerrard ahead of him, i think not.

[CaptainPlanet]

Pretty sure that's the same reason Carragher gave when he "retired" and got loads of stick for. Had a great season but was only wanted as a bench warmer.

[Leppard]

Carragher had Terry and Rio in front of him, though. Carrick has Lampard and Gerrard.

[CaptainPlanet]

I don't think that should matter really, although I'm not a fan at all of anyone who refuses a call up.

[Barry Cartman]

Completely agree with him. If, with the season he's had, he's still not considered good enough to start ahead of the other four central midfielders, two of which are Lampard and Gerrard, then why the hell would he want to be in the squad? Hodgson wanted to choose him as a standby anyway.

The season he's had

He's had a great season, along with Barry and Parker, he has no divine right to be starting ahead of those 2, never mind whether he'd get in ahead of Gerrard and Lampard. The quotes in the article don't suggest Roy only wanted him for the reserve list, it says he doesn't want to be a bench warmer.

[Bliss Seeker]

I'm going predict the starting 11 vs France.

I'd be shocked if we didn't line up like this:

---------Hart----------

---Terry----Cahill-----

Johnson-----------Cole

------Barry/Parker----

--Gerrard---Lamplard--

Walcott---------Young

-------Carroll--------

Only bones of contention would be who to partner Terry with and if Parker is fit.

Pretty depressing looking at it really

[Leppard]

Maybe not Barry and Parker (and Parker is struggling with injury fwiw) but Lampard and Gerrard? Cmon. He should easily be starting in front of them. Neither Barry nor Parker is as good at passing a ball as Carrick is anyway.

Hodgson added: "I wouldn't dream of putting Michael Carrick on a standby list after he's made it clear in the past he doesn't want to be involved like that. I'd have to be convinced he was better than the four [central midfielders] I've selected, and that he'd be happy to come out of retirement."

link

[Philip Rolfe]

Also read this morning that the new airport terminal in Kiev won't be finished in time. It has to be seen to be used because it's been built specifically for the Euros, so the players will all come through the new bit and have their photos taken, but the actual passport/security stuff will happen across the road in the old building and the fans will just go through there.

That's according to posts by England fans living out in Kiev and Dnipropetrovsk.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=991833&page=4 (bottom of that page and top of next one have latest developments)

Might be opened for the tournament then closed again afterwards to finish it off.

[Barry Cartman]

You're reading Roy's quote wrong, before it the FA said

We were advised a few months ago that because of where he was in his career, that he wanted to step back from being called up and sitting on the subs bench. He will help in extreme situations

Roy is saying he'd have to be convinced that Carrick was better than ALL of those players, therefore being in the starting XI, because if he doesn't believe that then Carrick wouldn't want to be in the squad if he wasn't starting.

He clearly should be going ahead of Lampard and Gerrard, maybe if he didn't have this attitude then he would be and one of those wouldn't be.

[Leppard]

He wouldn't need to be better than all four of them to start, he'd need to be better than three. Which he is.

[DeafParrot]

Lampard and Gerrard will be playing a completely different role from Carrick for England, so no, he shouldn't be starting over them. His battle is with Barry and Parker.

[Barry Cartman]

He wouldn't need to be better than all four of them to start, he'd need to be better than three. Which he is.

Says who, you

If its between a player who turns up to every squad and another who says i'll only go if i'm starting, the latter can FO

[ddidiodion]

He's already been told to FO and has been repeatedly for about 6-7 years.

[DeafParrot]

He hasn't been good enough for about 6-7 years.

[ddidiodion]

He hasn't been good enough for about 6-7 years.

Which is obviously not true, England might even have qualified for the Euros in 2008 if we'd picked our best midfielder.

[Razzler]

The season he's had

He's had a great season, along with Barry and Parker, he has no divine right to be starting ahead of those 2, never mind whether he'd get in ahead of Gerrard and Lampard. The quotes in the article don't suggest Roy only wanted him for the reserve list, it says he doesn't want to be a bench warmer.

I don't think Carrick is any position to be making demands about the first team. Everytime United hit a great patch he starts playing well in those teams. He's hardly set the England team on fire in the past either and he's had more than the odd patchy spell at United too, so if you're not first choice you're not first choice and let's face it, he's not.

There are very few players that can pull off the 'I don't want to be back up' thing and Carrick along with the likes of Paul Robinson aren't amongst them.

[Leppard]

Razzler's weird hate of Carrick coming to the fore again

[CaptainPlanet]

I don't think Carrick is a better fit for a 4-4-2 midfield role in the England squad over Gerrard, Lampard, Parker or Barry. And neither does Hodgson, or any of the last however many of the last England managers.

Still, it's Razzler who is clearly in the wrong with his opinion here.

[ddidiodion]

Carrick not better in a midfield 2 than Lampard or Gerrard? Really?! Not going to get into an argument about Parker and Barry as they've both had good seasons but Lampard and Gerrard are surely there to play behind Carroll/Welbeck? Playing either of them in a midfield 2 would be suicidal.

[Bootador]

Lampard and Gerrard are both completely unsuitable for a 2 man midfield.

Was the Lamplard typo much further up this page deliberate, I liked

[Leppard]

Fwiw, Carrick's played in a 4-4-2 this whole season. And, also, what about his play is not suited to a 4-4-2?

[CaptainPlanet]

In a team with such as England, I don't think Carrick offers enough going forward as part of a two when paired with a holding midfield player (which he would be for England).

For united he's not been paired with a defensive midfielder in a 4-4-2. There's a difference between playing with scholes and playing with barry/parker

[Razzler]

Yes, so weird.

Someone has to balance out United fans (cute) over compensating for Carrick. Do you honestly think if Fergie had more money to spend Carrick would be anything other than a squad player? What was it he rolled out before "Carrick doesn't get going until October" to cover over the fact he wasn't really doing anything ... October most likely co-incided with United hitting a good winning run.

When the chips are down Carrick is not the guy you turn to.

[ShirazS]

In a team with such as England, I don't think Carrick offers enough going forward as part of a two when paired with a holding midfield player (which he would be for England).

For united he's not been paired with a defensive midfielder in a 4-4-2. There's a difference between playing with scholes and playing with barry/parker

But surely Carrick is a holding midfielder? Deep-Lying Playmaker..

[CaptainPlanet]

But surely Carrick is a holding midfielder? Deep-Lying Playmaker..

Which would mean he would have to be picked over Barry or Parker. Not over Lampard or Gerrard.

[ShirazS]

Which would mean he would have to be picked over Barry or Parker. Not over Lampard or Gerrard.

In a 3-man midfield?

Carrick alongside Parker/Barry with Gerrard/Lampard ahead of them. I think that would work quite well.

[CaptainPlanet]

In a 3-man midfield?

Carrick alongside Parker/Barry with Gerrard/Lampard ahead of them. I think that would work quite well.

Which would be fine if we were to play a 4-5-1/4-3-3 - but realistically I'm expecting Hodgson to play a rigid 4-4-2 with Carroll/Defoe for the first two games and possibly Carroll/Rooney (if Carroll does well) or Welbeck/Rooney after that.

Which is why my post was in a 4-4-2, I don't think Carrick fits in with the middle two as he isn't better than Barry/Parker and he wouldn't work better with Barry/Parker than Gerrard or Lampard would.

[ShirazS]

Which would be fine if we were to play a 4-5-1/4-3-3 - but realistically I'm expecting Hodgson to play a rigid 4-4-2 with Carroll/Defoe for the first two games and possibly Carroll/Rooney (if Carroll does well) or Welbeck/Rooney after that.

Which is why my post was in a 4-4-2, I don't think Carrick fits in with the middle two as he isn't better than Barry/Parker and he wouldn't work better with Barry/Parker than Gerrard or Lampard would.

More recently, with West Brom and Fulham, he has played more of a 4-2-3-1. In addition, if he intended to play 4-4-2, he has too few strikers considering Rooney's suspension.

[Philip Rolfe]

Think people largely have a different idea of Lampard to what he actually is these days.

[ddidiodion]

Which is why my post was in a 4-4-2, I don't think Carrick fits in with the middle two as he isn't better than Barry/Parker and he wouldn't work better with Barry/Parker than Gerrard or Lampard would.

Personally disagree with the first one but the second one is just plain wrong. If we're going to play 4-4-2 we need both central midfielders to pull their defensive weight, the only viable option for a midfield 2 in that squad is Parker/Barry, playing Parker and Gerrard against a good team would see us getting ripped to shreads. You saw what Barcelona did when we played Carrick and Giggs in a midfield 2, Giggs went missing and Carrick was left swamped by Iniesta, Xavi and Messi cutting in.

You play a 4-4-2 so one of your midfielders doesn't have to get up and support the lead striker, Hodgson has said as much himself.

[ham_aka_stam]

Do people not realise that United have effectively played two holding players since Scholes came back? Neither "gives much going forward". And do you know what that allows? The AM/withdrawn-ST some space in the middle, and the wingers space to cut in.

It's suicide only having one CM who shows restraint (especially if that's Barry) when your wingers are likely to be attacking, as are your FBs.

I hate to keep banging on about it, but it's exactly what happened against Germany.

I'd play Barry and Carrick or Carrick and Parker with either Rooney or Lampard ahead of them. You then give your wingers more lateral space.

[Bootador]

[CaptainPlanet]

Wait, Scholes is a holding player now?

[Rob1981]

That picture Rooney looks like he's struggling with a massive poo.

[ddidiodion]

We've been playing two holding midfielders since 2006(ish), the only time that system has come unstuck is when it's been presented with a top 3 man midfield (Barcelona, AC Milan and occasionally Liverpool, Chelsea and City) and we haven't matched them man for man.

Wait, Scholes is a holding player now?

He's been a deep lying playmaker since 2006, he very rarely gets into the opposition half anymore. This shouldn't be new information for you;

http://www.caughtoffside.com/2012/05/11/caughtoffside-premier-league-team-of-the-season-top-ten-defensive-holding-midfielders/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/mar/19/paul-scholes-xavi-andrea-pirlo-playmaker

[ham_aka_stam]

Wait, Scholes is a holding player now?

Just because he isn't a defensive rock doesn't mean he doesn't hold the deep midfield position.

[ham_aka_stam]

That picture Rooney looks like he's struggling with a massive poo.

He is, it's called the England Team.

[CaptainPlanet]

If we're going to play 4-4-2 we need both central midfielders to pull their defensive weight

Just like Scholesy does then!

I'm going to do what everyone wants and just give up talking about football, I clearly have no idea what I'm on about and have been watching a different game for the past however many years.

[ddidiodion]

Just like Scholesy does then!

:confused:

Scholes does pull his weight defensively, as I said he very rarely ventures out of position (i.e he holds his position in the middle of the pitch). His minutes per tackle is lower than Barry this season (second to only Parker and level with Carrick) and he wins more of his 50/50's on the ground that Barry does, he also wins the ball in the middle third of the pitch more than any other player this season (on average every 19 minutes).

[Leppard]

Guys, don't you understand? People who watch United play every week don't have any idea about how the team is set up, nor how Carrick or Scholes play.

[brett.spurs]

Ruddy looks like an fm regen.

[Lancer]

Yes, so weird.

Someone has to balance out United fans (cute) over compensating for Carrick. Do you honestly think if Fergie had more money to spend Carrick would be anything other than a squad player? What was it he rolled out before "Carrick doesn't get going until October" to cover over the fact he wasn't really doing anything ... October most likely co-incided with United hitting a good winning run.

When the chips are down Carrick is not the guy you turn to.

What an idiot.

Carrick's been Ferguson's first choice midfielder for the past 6 years. Out of all United players in that time frame, only Evra has made more appearances. In that time United have won 4 League titles, 1 Champions League + a few mickey mouse cups.

Money to spend? erm, United spent close to 60m last summer.

[ddidiodion]

We need to sign a midfielder, it's true. But we need to sign one to play alongside Carrick, not instead of him.

[SCIAG]

Think people largely have a different idea of Lampard to what he actually is these days.

Not only that, but even four or five years ago, our best, most balanced midfield duo was Barry and Lampard. He's neither an undisciplined as Gerrard nor as defensive as Parker, but he's not a million miles from Wilshire/Carrick/Barry. Scores more goals still though.

[roseboy64]

Carrick not suited for a 4-4-2 when the majority of his games at Utd and IIRC Spurs have been as a CM in a 4-4-2.

[DeafParrot]

Not only that, but even four or five years ago, our best, most balanced midfield duo was Barry and Lampard. He's neither an undisciplined as Gerrard nor as defensive as Parker, but he's not a million miles from Wilshire/Carrick/Barry. Scores more goals still though.

I'd say four or five years ago Hargreaves was in the mix too.

[Benjani'sBootCleaner]

Not sure how I came about this, I got an email for some reason. Might be of some use to anyone thinking of going. A Fan Camp for 20euros a night in Kiev.

http://worldcupfancamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=10002

Thought it would be interesting to see what tickets are onsale, was in the queue since 12, then got into the portal which had "unexpected error" so couldn't search for anything. ****ing Joke