South American Football > European Football

[Tele Santana]

Jamos,

Fair point, though within the group of friends I use to talk about football with, no one would claim that Pele and Di Stefano are close to Figo or for that matter any of the players cited. Perhaps Maradona, Puskas, and that´s it.

Cheers,

Tele

[emiloprisa]

If all of you guys from South America want Europe to have fewer places the solution is very simple. Get together and try to reunite the Soviet Union, Cehoslovacia and Yugoslavia. Simple as daylight!

If your football is so great how come all your best players come to europe to play football? How many people watch the Copa Libertadores? 20? The Champions League final is watched by more brazilians than the final of the libertadores. You'll never see a european club win the UCL and go into bancrupcy while almost all the major argentinian clubs are in deep .... We don't play for peanuts here. Take the european sides out of the world cup and the winner will recieve a cardbord cup instead of gold. Cash is king and Europe is cash. And besides, what were you 400 years ago? Spaniards...

[robbert_o154]

Jamos was just going out of his way to explain that not every European is a blinkered biased SA-hater and you've just undone all he's said. [sarcasm] Well done. [/sarcasm]

[emiloprisa]

no i did not. how can i hate SA when they are infact europeans?

[AdamJH]

The global repechage would be brilliant. Wonder how many fans travelled to this - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2002/1658167.stm

You'll never see a european club win the UCL and go into bancrupcy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympique_de_Marseille#Bernard_Tapie_era_and_OM.2FVA_bribery_scandal

The highlight of the club's history is winning the new format Champions League in 1993. Basile Boli scored the only goal against Italy's A.C. Milan in the final held in Munich's Olympic Stadium. That triumph was the first time ever for a French club and it made Didier Deschamps and Fabien Barthez the youngest captain and goalkeeper, respectively, to capture the title.

This, however, was followed by a decade of decline. In 1994, due to financial irregularities and a match fixing scandal involving then president Bernard Tapie, they suffered forced relegation to the second division

[Uquillas]

If your football is so great how come all your best players come to europe to play football? .

because Europe is richer than SA? so they pay them more?

[William Hall]

Give the 2014 World Cup to someone who actually deserves it - like Australia for example

Excellent idea

[Tele Santana]

Hahaha,

No need to talk about these last posts.

Jamos, I´m sorry for your attempt on dismissing European posters´ prejudice and bias.

Cheers,

Tele

[Meitheisman]

Tele, I wouldn't want you to fall in the other extreme either. I agree that several European posters have been ridiculously biased in this thread but just because some did that doesn't mean that some of us aren't capable of being objective and discuss SA v Europe.

[Tele Santana]

Hey Meitheisman,

Fully agree, you being a perfect example of being constructive yet defending your point of view.

It was just funny since Jamos was trying to make the case there were no offensive posts and after I showed him some and he acknowledged that indeed some of them were offensive, biased, etc. came a post like the one above.

I don´t see any reason as to why uquillas posts - despite some of them being clear provoking posts - are deemed comparable to some of the issues I brought to attention, and then this masterpiece from emiloprisa was posted...

Now it is evident that some of the European posters are indeed biased, exercise prejudice and so on so forth, as I stated before. Fortunately, some of them only.

Cheers,

Tele

[Jamos5000]

I didn't say there were "no offensive posts" at all. My point was that a) it wasn't as widespread as you seemed to suggest and b) much of it was in reaction to statements that were clearly intended to wind people up. Now you may say those who reacted to the provocations are as bad as(or worse than) the OP, whatever, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But I'm still baffled that you can't see the link between the two.

I'm with Meith here, just because you'll get people like emiloprisa, you shouldn't assume everyone is like that. Which was probably my original point, he just expressed a lot more succinctly

[Tele Santana]

Jamos,

Not to stand that much in this issue, I think you missed my point.

Here´s a quotation from one of your posts:

"Yet you seem to be fixated on the minority who disagree (as they are entitled to do), clinging to it as evidence of some widespread anti-SA sentiment that just doesn't exist."

There may not be a widespread anti-SA sentiment. But there are posters who exercise this sentiment, as I proved bringing back the very same posts that ignited my own reaction in this thread - in two pages, I found many of them, some of which you may not agree, some of which you already agreed.

Having said that, as stubborn as my reaction may have seemed to moderate/reasonable European posters, I had a clear purpose of bringing the issue up, because it does exist.

What baffles me, to use your term, is that there is even no disguising in some of those posts. Conclusion on people being ****** because they are from SA, direct offensive expressions and so on forth - which, is, tbh, nothing close to the statements by uquillas or, for that matter, for my posts even when answering those posts.

So, if you think that if someone tells you they´re better than you and they deserve a job, for example, more than you do, by attacking them personally or saying all "whatever" are jerks, *******, unethical, cheaters, etc. this is a normal reaction, than I´d have to disagree.

As provoking as uquillas title or opening post may have looked, it doesn´t justify prejudice or create where there wasn´t in the first place. He talked about performance, which you may agree with or not.

That´s my issue with these responses. And that´s what I have been trying to make a point with. To negate the existence or hide the posters full of bias (in a level transcending football) and prejudice under the carpet would be foolish.

Not widespread. Not restricted to one or two either.

Cheers,

Tele

[Jamos5000]

As provoking as uquillas title or opening post may have looked, it doesn´t justify prejudice or create where there wasn´t in the first place.... Not widespread. Not restricted to one or two either.

In some cases, you may be right. However, do you not think it's possible that others, in response to provoking, have adopted an exaggerated stance in opposition?

[Mario]

you guys will have to discover the unconscious part of the mind soon in this thread, and then agree on the irrationality of men, and then wait for the world cup 2014 forum to discuss it

emil, you're so thick i want you to be my bodyguard in south america

[emiloprisa]

emil, you're so thick i want you to be my bodyguard in south america

I do not have anything against South Americans or for that matter any other nations, continents, etc. I just believe european football is better in quality than south american football. And i can back up with facts anything i have said on this thread. I am NOT a racist ( except against gypsys, but if you would live were i do you would understand) and i did not mean to offend people. I have played a lot of saves in Argentina, Brazil, Mexico and i plan to go there for the 2014 WC. I am just stating facts.

[emiloprisa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympique_de_Marseille#Bernard_Tapie_era_and_OM.2FVA_bribery_scandal

Financial irregularities doesn't mean bancruptcy. They were fixing matches. They have been involved in Money MAKING schemes and were relegated as a punishment not due to the financial condition of the club.

[masteR+_+]

I do not have anything against South Americans or for that matter any other nations, continents, etc. I just believe european football is better in quality than south american football. And i can back up with facts anything i have said on this thread.

I would like to see that.

I am NOT a racist

So you're just an idiot then?

[Tele Santana]

emiloprisa,

I don´t know where you get your facts from...but...just to clarify.

Globo TV earned 16 points of audience for the Internazionale x Bayern game in the final of the CL. The average for the matches shown in network TV from Libertadores were 22-23 points in the group phase of the tournament. The best result so far this year was 37 points in the round of 16. Do the math.

In 2009, Globo broadcasted a Corinthians (2nd largest fan base in Brazil) match instead of the final of Libertadores to the largest Brazilian markets, so your example is quite silly and out of context. Had Libertadores been broadcast by them, it would have demolished UCL ratings. But the simple fact is that they had a more appealing match to broadcast to a larger base at the same evening.

As for your interesting notions on history and geography...

Brazil has, by itself, 7% of people who declared to have no white ancestors at all. That means more than 13 million people. Bolivia has more than 50% of its population of over 9 million people not being descendents of Europeans. 34% to 48% of Peruvians are equally not Europeans or mixed with Europeans. Oh, this would mean at least more 9 million people. In Colombia, 8% of the population is in this category as well, or something like at least 3.5 million more people. In Ecuador, at least 13% of 14 million people, or 1.8 million.

Well, at least more than 30 million people in South America have no European ancestry. The real number could easily surpass 10% of the continent population actually. Yet, we´d still have to calculate how many more have mixed ancestry which means they weren´t "Spanish" 400 years ago.

Oh, and the Spanish weren´t the ones who exploited Brazil. Portugal was. Yeah, I know...they´re close. Those Iberians...

But in the end, we´re all from Africa, cradle of men, aren´t we? Maybe that´s your point, though some of our African brothers wouldn´t agree with the colonialist policies enforced by the mighty conquerors, would they?

Or is it that you can´t hate Europeans being an European (or for that matter, you couldn´t hate South Americans being a South American) just because History isn´t full of such examples?

Finally, on your recollection of bankrupt clubs you can name it as you want, but I am pretty sure people here know many cases of clubs that went technically bankrupt on your side of the Atlantic, and Portsmouth´s situation is just one around the corner, from the top league in the world. It doesn´t happen only in (sic) "peanut" leagues.

Notwithstanding, of course, the financial practices and beyond suspicion benefactor owners who inject huge sums of money to keep some of those clubs financially good looking and able to overspend in wealth-generating deals with agents, etc.

Nay, you are not a hater, biased or anything like. Actually, I have a great idea! We should invite you for a seminar on how football explains South America when you come watch WC 2014. How much would you charge?

Cheers,

Tele

[charlo116]

I do not have anything against South Americans or for that matter any other nations, continents, etc. I just believe european football is better in quality than south american football. And i can back up with facts anything i have said on this thread. I am NOT a racist ( except against gypsys, but if you would live were i do you would understand) and i did not mean to offend people. I have played a lot of saves in Argentina, Brazil, Mexico and i plan to go there for the 2014 WC. I am just stating facts.

the only facts are that such a pointless thread was ready to die down finally until you came along making comments as dumb as the OP.

[Mario]

You could start backing up your info about Europe being king and king being cash without using a simple sylogism. Say, Abramovich is russian, and Man City was owned by a thai crook and then a very rich arab, Man Utd is full of debts and owned by americans who asked for a huge loan so they could buy the club, Liverpool is also owned by americans...

I suppose you can also explain how we are all spaniards in here...

[mac_sama]

If your football is so great how come all your best players come to europe to play football?

How come only 3 players of the starting eleven of Internazionale at UCL finals were from Europe?

[joe__the__man]

How come only 3 players of the starting eleven of Internazionale at UCL finals were from Europe?

How come all 23 players in the Spanish World Cup squad were from Europe?

[emiloprisa]

@Mario: I was talking about the money UEFA pays to teams that compete in the Champions League and Europa League. And since when is Russia not an european country?

[emiloprisa]

@Tele. I see you admit that just over 10% of the continent's population are of indigenous descent and the rest are of Spanish and Portughese descent yet after that you go on to bash Europe with terms like exploited and trying to imply that we europeans have enslaved the world. I'll tell you the truth clear and simple. If it wouldn't have been for europeans, the "new world" would have been until this day as backwards as the remote tribes inhabiting the amazon basin or at best as evolved as the incas. And you probably wouldn't have had football.

[emiloprisa]

So you're just an idiot then?

Swears deleted.

[Tele Santana]

@Tele.

I see you admit that just over 10% of the continent's population are of indigenous descent and the rest are of Spanish and Portughese descent yet after that you go on to bash Europe with terms like exploited and trying to imply that we europeans have enslaved the world. I'll tell you the truth clear and simple. If it wouldn't have been for europeans, the "new world" would have been until this day as backwards as the remote tribes inhabiting the amazon basin or at best as evolved as the incas. And you probably wouldn't have had football.

Emiloprisa...not so good in text interpretation (or reading, simply put) are you?

See, I "admitted" that (at least) 10% of South Americans have absolutely no relation to European ancestors. That is a bit too much to call the South Americans Europeans, wouldn´t you think?

Of course, there are those many more that do have a partial relation to Europe as they have equally or in a larger degree with Africans, Asians and Amerindians ancestors. Oh, and you know so much about South America that you think those who are of European descent are exclusively Spanish or Portuguese? Good thinking!

About exploiting and enslaving. I´m not bashing against Europe nor implying anything. History is there. European empires - big difference with European citizens - exploited every inch of land searching for gold, wood and other items to send back to their capitals. You are implicitly claiming I am anti-European because I learned History at school? Ok then.

And to be fair, this kind of empire-stealing practice is not an European exclusive. On enslavery, well, there was an attempt with the Amerindians in Brazil and the other countries in Latin America. When these self-proclaimed masters of the New World realized these people wouldn´t be enslaved easily, they switched to killing mode and went to Africa to try their luck. And lucky they were!

As for your absurd theory that has been used in centuries XVIII and XIX to try to justify the acts of a colonialist policy, called evolutionism - 'to bring civilization to the high standard we are, etc etc" - you really should at least get updated when trying to talk about these topics. These simplistic views were dropped in the early XXth century, you´re about 100 years late.

By the way, the Incas had a formidable civilization. And as a direct descendant of Europeans, I can tell you quite honestly that, despite my love for the game, I´d exchange at any day the football joy in South America with the millions of innocent people killed by those empires. If I could, of course, and, most importantly, if any of this b***t nonsense you wrote were real.

To clarify, I must say that many Europeans who came to SA actually contributed a lot to the continent. Most immigrants played a fantastic part in building the economic infra-structure of Brazil, for example. Many criollos fought for independence against the empires. But that doesn´t change the fact of history that these very empires looked at South America, Africa and Asia in general as wealth gathering zones and at its inhabitants as second class people, or worse.

Finally, this doesn´t have anything to do with present Europeans. It just shows that your theory is as absurd as it is preposterous, and how we are still endangered to find intelectual fossils two centuries old.

By the way, was this silly post of yours just an attempt to get your lack of reliable data to back up your ideas - "facts" - out of the light?

Cheers,

Tele

[emiloprisa]

From what i know a majority consists of 50% + 1. So you have just proved my point that most South Americans are of European descent. As for your pathetic attempt at Euro bashing desguised into so called history i have this to say. History is a relevant thing. It is written and rewritten time after time by those that have the interest to do that. As for your attempt to dismiss me as a "fossil" i would argue that you do not posses the supreme truth neither and that i do not change my ideas and views on what's considered "hip" at the moment. And spare me your eye-watering bull**** on how you would exchange football for the crimes of the european empires. Yeah we did some bad things, but you would have done the same given the opportunity, don't tell me that the people of south america are in some way better than europeans. And also i think the amount of aid offered by european nations and the advances in modern technology, medicine and science that have saved countless lives in poor areas of the world including some parts of south america have shown that we are willing to make up for our actions in the past. I find your posts long, boring, biased (like the history you were taught) and arrogant.

Cheers,

Emil

[football_master_94]

If all of you guys from South America want Europe to have fewer places the solution is very simple. Get together and try to reunite the Soviet Union, Cehoslovacia and Yugoslavia. Simple as daylight!

If your football is so great how come all your best players come to europe to play football? How many people watch the Copa Libertadores? 20? The Champions League final is watched by more brazilians than the final of the libertadores. You'll never see a european club win the UCL and go into bancrupcy while almost all the major argentinian clubs are in deep .... We don't play for peanuts here. Take the european sides out of the world cup and the winner will recieve a cardbord cup instead of gold. Cash is king and Europe is cash. And besides, what were you 400 years ago? Spaniards...

No chance. Just no.

[Tele Santana]

Emil,

I find yor posts rather amusing, tbh. I´m not sure if they make me laugh or if I am just relieved you´re not heading a political party somewhere, and hopefully, never will.

As for your bad habit of lying and not sustaining your positions, here is how I answer them...Text from your previous posts:

1- And besides, what were you 400 years ago? Spaniards...

2- how can i hate SA when they are infact europeans?

3- And i can back up with facts anything i have said on this thread

4- I am just stating facts.

And then...

5- From what i know a majority consists of 50% + 1. So you have just proved my point that most South Americans are of European descent.

Fantastic. You claim at one point every South American descend from Spaniards, even though the majority of Brazil, its largest country, does not. For a fact, I am Brazilian and don´t have any Spanish ancestry at all.

You go on to say you can´t hate South Americans because they are Europeans, in a generalization that is ridiculous. 10% at least are clearly not, so more than 30 million wouldn´t fit your stereotyping at all. Many more millions are mixed.

Then, in the end, having been corrected, which is really your problem because you bought all this nonsense to the discussion, you resort on changing your point - never made up to this moment - that the "majority" of South Americans are European.

By the way, this thin thinking of yours was answered in my first reaction to your ridiculous posts. We´re all Africans in the end. And yet, that didn´t prevented hate, killing, etc.

Continuing with the fun...your say:

6- As for your pathetic attempt at Euro bashing desguised into so called history i have this to say. History is a relevant thing. It is written and rewritten time after time by those that have the interest to do that.

First of all...disguised, not desguised (not a typo, since 'e' is far away from 'i'). Second of all: where is the Euro bashing? So you mean History was rewritten by South Americans in order to make the actions of the Empires to look bad? Is really that what you mean? Most European scholars and States acknowledge these days the harm they made to many people in the world. In Australia, there is a day to remember. In Brazil, there are days to remember both Amerindians and the Africans.

Then you bring a pearl, which is my personal favorite:

7- As for your attempt to dismiss me as a "fossil" i would argue that you do not posses the supreme truth neither and that i do not change my ideas and views on what's considered "hip" at the moment.

Dear Emil - nah, you´re not dear to me anyway - so you´re saying that anything different than your (unaware, I´m sure) depiction of evolutionist antropological theory is "hip"??????

Really???? "Hip" qualifies for criticism and review - part of it in Europe, actually - from as early as the start of the 20th century, over a full century of discussion and research in human sciences???? Wow. Talk about an enduring "hip". That is an absolutely brilliant piece!

(minute for a laugh).

I don´t possess the supreme truth (gladly). But you do possess supreme arrogance in this statement, which is kind of fun when associated with complete ignorance of what you´re trying to discuss.

May we continue with your nonsense? Next quote in line:

8- And spare me your eye-watering bull**** on how you would exchange football for the crimes of the european empires.

You´re right. That was an aswer to your ridiculous statement implying that although these empires might have killed some people if it weren´t for Europe and South America wouldn´t probably have football. So what is the simplistic point? I could think of many examples equally entertaining here: if it weren´t Africa, you wouldn´t be born at all. If it weren´t Israel, you wouldn´t have a messaging system. If it weren´t US, Europe would not recover like it did from WWII by itself, etc etc etc.

Now, comes a next fantastic quote...is it a new winner?

"9- Yeah we did some bad things, but you would have done the same given the opportunity, don't tell me that the people of south america are in some way better than europeans."

Idiotic statement at its best. The vast majority of people (not including you, though, based on what I read so far), regardless of being European, South American or from anywhere, wouldn´t do the same nowadays. So it is not a matter of opportunity really, and you can´t even think about this kind of conclusion if you acknowledge the notion of society that is pretty established today in most of the world.

Oh, and actually, you didn´t do anything bad, at least to my knowledge. This is your (out of where, I don´t know) own complex of guilt screaming. I never implied you did and you completely missed the point as I would expect.

I didn´t say that South Americans were better than Europeans by any standard (except in football, in this thread...).

Then we go to:

10- And also i think the amount of aid offered by european nations and the advances in modern technology, medicine and science that have saved countless lives in poor areas of the world including some parts of south america have shown that we are willing to make up for our actions in the past.

Well, I could have a good argument with you on this. IMF has been historically a tool of control until the 90´s. Just around the corner, many European countries sent less money to Haiti relief fund after the quake than Brangelina, etc.

But yes, of course Europe has a lot to do with the advances of contemporary life, just like USA, Japan, Israel and increasingly, countries that used to be called "under development" - which is a nice thing in fact.

And finally, your conclusion:

11- I find your posts long, boring, biased (like the history you were taught) and arrogant.

This is probably your best part. You are entitled to your opinion. I wouldn´t expect someone who used country names to tell another person something in a social forum to change his mind because I have a different perspective.

But, and this is just food for thought, perhaps you find me arrogant because the resources I bring to the discussion may have an effect that your biased resourceless speech can´t counter. I apologize for that.

Very honored to be considered boring by you, actually.

And, as for the biased - don´t be silly, most of the history I was taught came from the winner´s perspective, which was, in South America, the European colonization. If notions changed overtime, the scholars who changed their notions were in vast majority just like me: they had European ancestors, and that didn´t prevent them to review them. As well as for most sociologists and historians based in Europe, actually.

Cheers,

Tele

[mac_sama]

(Somewhat Offtopic)

There is an experiment I've been wanting to do in FM, but never found an easy way to do it... Making every league capable of playing with ONLY national players... Brasil' and Argentina's leagues certainly would look very strong...

Does anyone have any idea on how to do this?

[robbert_o154]

Not me, but you'll probably find people who do in this subforum. Nice idea!

[georginho_juventusygr]

I like the red-card sign.

[emiloprisa]

dear Tele, if you think i have the patience to read all of that than you haven't read my earlier post. take care

[Tele Santana]

dear emilo,

don´t worry, I know you read.

but what´s news? it won´t be the first time you´d be caught lying in this very same thread, would it?

cheers,

tele

[Meitheisman]

Don't worry Tele, Emilo quite obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. It's when people like him start to express pretty ridiculous opinions that I hate nationalities the most (in this case continents) - I hate being lumped with a group of people just because I was born fairly close to them.

And fwiw I read your post and pretty much agree on every single point.

[Uquillas]

http://www.iffhs.de/?b6e20fa3002f70d00ee2d17f7370eff3702bb1c2bb0e

The "Top 115" leagues are as follows:

National league from Points

1. España 580,0

2. Brasil 577,0

3. Argentina 536,0

4. Italia 508,0

5. England 486,0

6. Deutschland 457,0

7. France 413,0

8. Perú 407,0

9. Chile 362,5

10. Paraguay 357,5

11. Ecuador 342,5

[neutral]

This is YOUR best XI for this WC Uquillas...

GK - Casillas

RB- Ramos

LB- Lahm

CB- Heitinga

CB- Puyol

MF- Sneijder

MF- Muller

MF- Iniesta

MF- Schweinsteiger

ST- Villa

FW- Forlan

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/217391-Best-XI-of-the-World-Cup-post-yours-now

10 Europeans, 1 SA... Nuff said

[Meitheisman]

Too bad leagues have nothing to do with national teams. The French league is ranked much higher than the Dutch one for instance.

[Uquillas]

This is YOUR best XI for this WC Uquillas...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/217391-Best-XI-of-the-World-Cup-post-yours-now

10 Europeans, 1 SA... Nuff said

Messi = best player in the world

/nuff said.

[aggressive minor]

Spain= best team in the world.

nuff said

(no wonder why this thread has just gone in circles!)

[joe__the__man]

http://www.iffhs.de/?b6e20fa3002f70d00ee2d17f7370eff3702bb1c2bb0e

That is the most ridiculous list I've ever seen. The makers have absolutely zero knowledge of how the Brazilian league compares to the Spanish league. Ranking leagues inside a continent is one thing, as several clubs from the leagues compete with each other year upon year, and even then there is arguments that this is not fully reflective of league strength, so how can they possibly begin to rank leagues across continents. The only team a European team will meet a South American team is through the Club World Championship, which means one game between the two per year, are they trying to say that's enough basis to write this list on :confused:

Edit:

In fact I just looked on the site for how they compile this list, and it can be found here.

UEFA Champions League: 14 - 7 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat

UEFA Europa League: 12 - 6 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat

Copa Libertadores: 14 - 7 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat

Copa Sudamericana: 12 - 6 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat

CAF Champions League: 9 - 4.5 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat

CAF Confederations Cup: 7 - 3.5 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat

AFC Champions League: 9 - 4.5 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat

AFC Cup: 7 - 3.5 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat

CONCACAF Champions League: 9 - 4.5 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat

OFC Champions League: 5 - 2.5 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat

FIFA Club World Cup: 14 - 7 - 0 (finals: 21 - 10,5 - 0) points for win - draw - defeat

Reason:

The widening difference in standard and performance between the two club competitions within each continent, as well as the increasing number of matches played in the less important competition of each continent.

Therefore they making a list after they've already made the assumption that the Champions League is the same strength as the Copa Libertadores and the Europa League the same strength as the Copa Sudamerica. That may be the case but you cannot just assume that it is and make you list regardless of the fact that it probably isn't.

To try and use this to support your argument that South America > Europe is frankly stupid, and not only because European leagues are ranked higher than South American leagues.

[Mario]

emil might think we don't have any sort of life in here, that's my conclusion

[Tele Santana]

As Joe pointed out, the best thing you could do from a league ranking like that (questionable, still), would be to indicate relative strength inside the continent.

Soone could say Spain and Brazil are the best performing leagues in each continent, or more influential, something like that. But even so, it would be a kind of a stretch.

[Meitheisman]

It'd definitely be a stretch as these rankings only include teams playing international football which is typically only about 1/3 of the league. What about the other 12/15 teams? It's all well and good to say that the top 5 in Spain is better than the top 5 in France but it doesn't make the Spanish league as a whole better than the French league as a whole, for all we know the 12th best team in France could be better than the 9th best team in Spain but we have no way to find out.

[mac_sama]

Who cares about silly IFFHS' rankings anyway?

[Meitheisman]

Ulquillas apparently

[georginho_juventusygr]

From IFFHS:

The strongest National League in the World 2009

Die stärkste Liga der Welt 2009

La Mejor Liga de Fútbol del Mundo 2009

Le Meilleur Championnat National du Monde 2009

by IFFHS

league ofpoints

1.England1187,02.España1077,03.Deutschland1031,04.Brasil941,05.Italia920,06.France899,07.Argentina838,08.Nederland799,09.Ukraina746,510.Türkiye691,511.România673,512.Portugal656,513.Greece625,514.Belgique621,015.México610,016.Chile579,0

Paraguay579,018.

Česká Republika

545,019.Österreich544,520.Russia525,021.Uruguay522,022.Israel516,023.Ecuador509,024.Perú504,025.Danmark484,026.Scotland482,027.Colombia473,028.Japan460,029.Schweiz458,030.Nigeria440,531.Republic of Korea413,032.Saudi Arabia405,533.Uzbekistan403,534.Egypt392,035.Bulgaria385,536.Srbija383,037.Hrvatska380,038.Slovensko370,039.Eesti364,040.Georgia358,041.Venezuela357,042.Angola356,543.Polska348,044.Moldova345,045.Sverige344,046.USA343,047.Norge342,548.Algérie340,049.Belarus336,050.Iran329,551.Latvija328,052.Magyarország326,053.Zambia325,554.Tunisie321,555.Sudan320,556.Libya317,557.Syria314,058.South Africa311,559.Honduras310,060.Éire308,061.Slovenija299,062.Thailand298,063.Northern Ireland296,064.Panamá294,565.Albania289,0

Cypern289,067.Singapore286,568.Guatemala285,069.Lietuva283,570.UAE281,071.Suomi272,072.China268,573.Zimbabwe267,574.Iceland266,075.Armenia264,076.Vietnam262,577.Côte-d'Ivoire261,0

Malaysia261,079.Macedonia259,080.Lebanon254,581.Yemen253,5

Cameroun253,583.El Salvador249,584.Australia249,0

Ghana249,086.Costa Rica248,087.Indonesia247,588.Kuwait244,089.Jordan243,590.Qatar243,091.Hong Kong242,592.Maroc238,593.Bahrain238,094.Bolivia235,095.Trinidad & Tobago214,596.Mali213,097.Azerbaijan209,098.Nicaragua204,0

Oman204,0100.Bosne i Hercegovine191,5

Club World Ranking

Club-Weltrangliste

Clasificación Mundial de los Clubes

Classement Mondial des Clubs

by IFFHS

Top 350

(1st July 2009 - 29th June 2010)

1.(1.)FC BarcelonaEspaña/4297,0

(1.)FC Internazionale MilanoItalia/4297,03.(4.)FC Bayern MünchenDeutschland/4257,04.(3.)Club Estudiantes de La PlataArgentina/4254,05.(5.)AS RomaItalia/4248,06.(7.)SV Werder BremenDeutschland/4236,0

(7.)Fulham FCEngland/4236,0

(7.)Chelsea FC LondonEngland/4236,09.(10.)Club Atlético de MadridEspaña/4231,010.(11.)Olympique LyonnaisFrance/4230,011.(12.)Lille Olympique Sporting ClubFrance/4218,012.(13.)Manchester United FCEngland/4217,013.(14.)Arsenal FC LondonEngland/4216,014.(15.)Valencia CFEspaña/4214,015.(17.)PSV EindhovenNederland/3210,516.(19.)Hamburger SVDeutschland/4210,017.(20.)FC Girondins de BordeauxFrance/4209,018.(21.)Sevilla FCEspaña/4208,019.(6.)Cruzeiro EC Belo HorizonteBrasil/4207,020.(16.)CA Vélez SarsfieldArgentina/4205,021.(17.)CD Universidad de Chile SantiagoChile/3204,522.(24.)RSC AnderlechtBelgique/3202,0

(21.)Club Libertad AsunciónParaguay/3202,0

(24.)Real Madrid CFEspaña/4202,025.(26.)Galatasaray SK İstanbulTürkiye/3200,026.(28.)FC BaselSchweiz/3198,527.(29.)Sport Lisboa e BenficaPortugal/3198,028.(30.)AFC Ajax AmsterdamNederland/3197,029.(27.)São Paulo FCBrasil/4195,030.(31.)Fenerbahçe SK İstanbulTürkiye/3193,5

(31.)FC Shakhtar DonetskUkraina/3193,532.(34.)AC Fiorentina FirenzeItalia/4190,0

(34.)Panathinaikos AO AthensGreece/3190,034.(23.)SC Corinthians Paulista São PauloBrasil/4187,035.(36.)Liverpool FCEngland/4185,036.(37.)FC Twente EnschedeNederland/3184,537.(39.)Club Brugge KVBelgique/3179,0

(38.)CR Flamengo Rio de JaneiroBrasil/4179,039.(33.)SC Internacional Porto AlegreBrasil/4175,040.(41.)Red Bull SalzburgÖsterreich/2174,041.(42.)PAE Olympiakos SFP PireasGreece/3172,542.(40.)CA BanfieldArgentina/4172,043.(43.)Fluminense FC Rio de JaneiroBrasil/4170,044.(44.)Hapoel Tel-Aviv FCIsrael/2169,045.(48.)CD Cruz Azul Ciudad de MéxicoMéxico/3166,546.(47.)FC Steaua BucureştiRomânia/3166,047.(49.)FC do PortoPortugal/3165,548.(44.)Liga Deportiva Universitaria de QuitoEcuador/3164,049.(50.)FC KøbenhavnDanmark/3162,5

(46.)Cerro Porteño FBC AsunciónParaguay/3162,551.(51.)Juventus FC TorinoItalia/4162,052.(52.)Milan ACItalia/4161,053.(53.)Sporting Clube de Portugal LisboaPortugal/3160,554.(55.)VfB StuttgartDeutschland/4157,055.(54.)CA LanúsArgentina/4156,0

(56.)Olympique de MarseilleFrance/4156,0

(56.)Everton FCEngland/4156,058.(58.)Pachuca CFMéxico/3155,559.(59.)Universitario de Deportes LimaPerú/3154,560.(62.)FC BATE BarysauBelarus/2154,061.(60.)Athletic Club de BilbaoEspaña/4152,062.(67.)Club Alianza LimaPerú/3147,063.(64.)Villarreal CFEspaña/4146,0

(71.)FC Sheriff TiraspolMoldova/2146,065.(66.)AC Sparta PrahaČeská Republika/3145,066.(78.)Club Sport Emelec GuayaquilEcuador/3144,0

(67.)Glasgow Celtic FCScotland/3144,068.(69.)VfL WolfsburgDeutschland/4143,069.(70.)Club Deportivo TolucaMéxico/3142,570.(72.)SK Sturm GrazÖsterreich/2140,071.(62.)Club Nacional de Football MontevideoUruguay/3139,572.(64.)CD Universidad Católica SantiagoChile/3138,573.(73.)FK Partizan BeogradSrbija/2136,0

(73.)Maccabi Haifa FCIsrael/2136,075.(61.)FC Pohang SteelersKorea Republic/2135,576.(81.)Club Juan Aurich de ChiclayoPerú/3134,077.(76.)SK Rapid WienÖsterreich/2133,078.(77.)Éntente Sportife de SétifAlgérie/2132,579.(75.)CFR 1907 ClujRomânia/3131,580.(79.)SS Lazio RomaItalia/4130,0

(79.)Aston Villa FCEngland/4130,082.(81.)CSD Colo Colo SantiagoChile/3129,5

(81.)CD Independiente MedellínColombia/3129,584.(84.)PFC CSKA MoscowRussia/3128,585.(85.)APOEL LefkosiaCypern/2128,086.(86.)Debreceni VSCMagyarország/2127,587.(87.)FC Metalurg DonetskUkraina/3126,088.(89.)FK Rubin KazanRussia/3125,089.(91.)Bnei Yehuda FC Tel-AvivIsrael/2122,590.(92.)Tottenham Hotspur FCEngland/4122,0

(87.)CA San Lorenzo de Almagro Buenos AiresArgentina/4122,0

(92.)FC Genoa 1893Italia/4122,093.(95.)Royal Standard de LiègeBelgique/3121,094.(96.)Club de Futbol MonterreyMéxico/3120,595.(97.)AJ AuxerroiseFrance/4120,0

(103.)Al-Hilal OmdurmanSudan/2120,0

(90.)FC VasluiRomânia/3120,098.(100.)KAA GentBelgique/3119,099.(103.)Al-Karama HomsSyria/2118,5100.(103.)NK Dinamo ZagrebHrvatska/2118,0