The Brazil Thread

[Helarxe]

He's actually fairly skillful, but unreliable, and in his role he HAS to be reliable.

[PMLF]

Yes, I didn't say he was without any skills though, just that he is not good enough for Brazil. There are other players who are at least just as skillful as he is, and who are mentally more prepared to play for Brazil.

[ArsenalFan7]

Wasn't he voted flop of the year and worst player of the year by some sort of italian newspaper or something?

I haven't watched him at all in the serie A but I can't understand if he gained these dreadful awards how he was picked for the Brazil squad.

[PMLF]

He was, bidone d'oro is the award, but it's a bit of a joke award, so you can't take it very seriously, although he was disappointing anyway at Juventus.

[Helarxe]

Yes, I didn't say he was without any skills though, just that he is not good enough for Brazil. There are other players who are at least just as skillful as he is, and who are mentally more prepared to play for Brazil.

I know, I was just summarizing my views, I wasn't disagreeing with you

[PMLF]

Ah OK, I wasn't sure if you were implying that I said he has poor skills.

If he controlled his temperament and wasn't so violent too, he would be fine, his passing can be really good (like the assist he made in the last game).

[ArsenalFan7]

Hasn't the problems over at Juve really damaged him as a player though?

It has to be extremely hard adapting at a club in Juve's situation

[Tele Santana]

Hey ArsenalFan7,

I think Juve´s situation got its hand on Diego for instance - not suggesting he was missed in the squad, btw - but Felipe Melo has personality issues and if he doesn´t treat them, his career could be jeopardized.

Personally, I love Thiago Motta in midfield. I think he´s a terrific player and am puzzled as why Dunga didn´t give him a decent chance in the squad prior to the WC.

Cheers,

Tele

[Suggy33]

So, Dunga sacked, need a thread?

[Tele Santana]

Hey Suggy,

For me the funniest news today was Adriano missing his team presentation at Roma.

The team officials told the press this is because Adriano´s son passport papers weren´t ready yet. I don´t know who´s being manipulated here - I hope is Roma - because if this is a covert-up to justify his delay in getting to Rome, they will learn soon enough they need a repertoire of ideas to deal with his lack of professionalism.

Although highly predictable, as Dunga sacking would be...

[PMLF]

So, Dunga sacked, need a thread?

No need for a new thread, Dunga was already expected to leave after the WC as soon as he became the national team manager back in 2006.

We can also use this thread to discuss what happens from now on.

[DJ]

Look, after the game, everybody knows a lot.

I was expecting the game to be similar to the CL final and I'm sure many people thought that the game was over at ht. Everybody saw that Brazil were a better TEAM.

Now, because of my fault, the Brazilians are being attacked, when I'm the most arrogant in here by a mile. It's not their fault that I talk too much. I'm sure nobody said that Holland had no chance anyway, just that Brazil were better. The RESULT proved us/ME wrong.

PS: I love the Dutch users, especially Micado and DJ. I hope you guys reach the final.

Gracias

I still think this Brasil team will beat this Dutch team in 7 from 10 matches, but this time we got one of the other three

Not sure what happened, but the entire Brasilian team seemed to choke in the second half, as if they couldn't believe the Dutch team had the cheek to get a lucky goal and that the ref was so mean as to actually whistle when they were fouling Robben again and again. Then van Bommel got away with some very useful fouls which mainly Alves just couldn't stand (what goes around comes around ). The coin just fell our way

[yovan]

Van Bommel for the fair play award. hehe

I think the Brazilians realized that they were Brazil and that they were there to win after that goal. They couldn't handle that pressure IMO.

[Tele Santana]

I was ashamed for the sport of football on Van Bommel´s display today, tbh, and the officiating that let him get away with anything. Complete joke.

If there were some issues on the Brazil-Netherlands game, today it was unbelievable. The way this guy behaved and how he was let to stay while the so-called violent Uruguayans were just playing with their heart was something.

From being empathetic to the Netherlands even after the Brazil match, I won´t root for them against whoever meets them in the final, for the sake of football.

[masteR+_+]

Hate van Bommel, come on Spain!

[PMLF]

I'll certainly support the Dutch in the final, it's about time they finally win it, and I don't care that much about this whole "sportsmanship" thing, this is a WC, you have to do what you to do to win it.

[masteR+_+]

I'll certainly support the Dutch in the final, it's about time they finally win it, and I don't care that much about this whole "sportsmanship" thing, this is a WC, you have to do what you to do to win it.

Personally, I prefer not to care whether it's the Dutch's "time" or not. Furthermore, Uruguay were robbed so I wouldn't want Holland to get away with that and win the WC.

It's not like I'll "support" Spain though as I'll probably not watch any further games.

[Tele Santana]

Based on merit, I´ll be rooting for the Germans. Quite unusual to be fair...

[PMLF]

As Uruguay is out I want anybody but Germany to win it really, as Germany will reach 4 if they win...

I think the referee made mistakes, but whether Uruguay was robbed or not, I don't know, I wasn't really expecting Uruguay to reach the final anyway though, as Luis Suárez and Lugano were missing and the Dutch have a better team.

[Tele Santana]

I wasn´t expecting Uruguay to be there either but under the circumstances (Fucile and Lodero - though not a starter but a good midfielder, which they lack in numbers, let´s not forget them) they pulled off a very good display.

I think the Dutch were awarded this win by terrible officiating and they played dirty again.

Of course you have to give it all in a World Cup, but I don´t like the uncalled for appealling tactics they used to try to control the game with diving, acting and violence.

Once you´re faced in the field with this sort of stuff, as a team who wants to be a winner, you have to answer, sometimes resorting in the same - remember Carlos Alberto and Lee in 1970. But to start a game with this as a clear mindset is a bit too much so I can´t see myself rooting for them.

Actually, Brazil this year looked a bit into this wrong mindsets to start with as well. Not diving, but you know, over-reacting all the time. That guerreiros thing got them thinking intimidation is within our culture, I don´t know.

And as Master said, getting away with it for the 2nd time in a row. In fact you´re right this is not the Dutch team´s fault. It comes down to FIFA and the referees to avoid this stuff. It just doesn´t seem fitting for the sport, imo. And it is indeed an irony we see a supposedly clean and fluid-style-of-play European side to do this.

Cheers,

Tele

[Dutch Dave]

Oh puh-leaze Tele, don't be so bitter. We fully deserved the win. Why?

Because we were a lot better. We created way more chances than Uruguay did. Uruguay basically had 1 chance (the 2-3) and the other goal was a mistake from our goalie. For the rest of the match they were pretty much harmless.

And we played dirty again? Possibly. But honestly, I don't even care. We've won so many fair-play prices in the past. Now I finally want a real prize.

[masteR+_+]

Oh puh-leaze Tele, don't be so bitter. We fully deserved the win. Why?

Because we were a lot better. We created way more chances than Uruguay did. Uruguay basically had 1 chance (the 2-3) and the other goal was a mistake from our goalie. For the rest of the match they were pretty much harmless.

And we played dirty again? Possibly. But honestly, I don't even care. We've won so many fair-play prices in the past. Now I finally want a real prize.

Who cares about who created more chances?

Also, if 2nd place is a real prize for you...

[Dutch Dave]

Who cares about who created more chances?

I do. I think it says a lot about who is the better team and deserved the win.

Also, if 2nd place is a real prize for you...

Well... tbh, we're no Brazil. I'm 24 years old and I've never seen my national team play a final before (in '88 I was too young). So seeing Oranje play in a WC-final is pretty much a dream come true already. And I'm sure many of my fellow Dutchmen feel the same.

Our players aren't satisfied yet though, they want to win it. They're hungry for the prize. So hungry that they will do anything to win. And it shows. That determination usually isn't typical for us, we always play the fair and attractive football, now we play to win. And that's nice for a change.

The people here whining about our 'dirty game', I just laugh at 'em honestly. Think what you think, I don't care. WE'RE IN THE FINAL!!!

[masteR+_+]

I do. I think it says a lot about who is the better team and deserved the win.

Your 2nd goal was offside and that's what I'm upset about.

Well... tbh, we're no Brazil. I'm 24 years old and I've never seen my national team play a final before (in '88 I was too young). So seeing Oranje play in a WC-final is pretty much a dream come true already. And I'm sure many of my fellow Dutchmen feel the same.

Look, I don't care.

[Sleepydude]

Wow, still a bit bitter aren't we?

[Tele Santana]

Dutch Dave,

I recall being probably like you are now in 1994...that is good for you. Rejoice.

Just won´t root for your team, mate, for the reasons stated. But then again, everybody wanted the Netherlands to win in 1974, and so did Germany. Perhaps your turn is now, and you´re in a great time of your life to enjoy it.

As far as the game goes, I disagree with you. Uruguay had plenty of chances - the lob over the keeper, the foul kick taken by Forlan. When the game was tied, it was open. After the second goal, of course Uruguay needed to go forward and became exposed.

Cheers,

Tele

[Dutch Dave]

Your 2nd goal was offside and that's what I'm upset about.

That's even more laughable, because it wasn't offside actually. The slow-mo proved that (mind you, they drew the line a little too late, since the ball already left Sneijders foot a while).

Look, I don't care.

I don't care that you don't care.

[Dutch Dave]

Dutch Dave,

I recall being probably like you are now in 1994...that is good for you. Rejoice.

Just won´t root for your team, mate, for the reasons stated. But then again, everybody wanted the Netherlands to win in 1974, and so did Germany. Perhaps your turn is now, and you´re in a great time of your life to enjoy it.

As far as the game goes, I disagree with you. Uruguay had plenty of chances - the lob over the keeper, the foul kick taken by Forlan. When the game was tied, it was open. After the second goal, of course Uruguay needed to go forward and became exposed.

Cheers,

Tele

Cheers. I forgot those 2 chances you mentioned.

I can imagine you not rooting for Holland. If I was a neutral supporter I would probably favouring Spain or Germany to win it because of the way they play. More adventurous and maybe more fair than us. It's just that I disagree with that Uruguay was robbed today. I think we rightfully won.

But oh well... much love and everything.

[Sleepydude]

Yeah, what Dave said. We haven't played the best football of the tournament but today was a deserved win, we were the better team. As a neutral I would probably support Germany though.

Anyway, it should be interesting to see Brazil rebuild their team with some talented younger players and be back in 2014 to challenge for the title as usual.

Cheers

[robbert_o154]

Wow, still a bit bitter aren't we?

It's more a case of Uruguay - Holland not being very relevant to the Brazil thread. Going on about it is on the verge of trolling. Take it to the match thread, lads.

[DJ]

Haha, Tele and Master so bitter. In truth, Oranje have not played more dirty than anyone and certainly not dirtier than Brasil nor Uruguay. Quit crying already, your next star is guaranteed in four years no matter what happens.

You may look forward now to another coach and a return to jogo bonito, now that the 'controlling' type of football has 'failed' for you.

[Tele Santana]

DJ,

No point in your post actually.

I couldn't personally care less about Uruguay except for the Cinderella effect. Uruguayans are much more our rivals than the Dutch.

Brazil is out so I don't have a reason to be bitter over Uruguay and as far as Brazil is concerned, we fully deserved what we've got.

The point is football and cryteria, and complementarily my freedom to express my point of view without being stereotyped as (sic) bitter because of the points I bring to attention.

While Felipe Melo - and for that matter even Kaka - were red carded, I didn't see any punishment against VBommel, doing ugly stuff for two games in a row, including a vicious foot in the build-up to the first goal, nor I did see anyone diving as much as Robben in this WCup.

Finally, not sure what you meant using the cliche-jogo bonito expression. Brazil won 94 with a clear controlling type of game, and there could be an argument about 02 using it as well, while in 98 there was lack of it (and in 06, of anything at all...).

But yes, another coach will be better, that's a no-brainer.

Cheers,

Tele

[Candre168]

DJ,

While Felipe Melo - and for that matter even Kaka - were red carded, I didn't see any punishment against VBommel, doing ugly stuff for two games in a row, including a vicious foot in the build-up to the first goal, nor I did see anyone diving as much as Robben in this WCup.

And of course Luis Fabiano was also punished for a double hand ball that lead to a goal

[PMLF]

This is the problem of blaming the ref for the outcome of games, you'll easily find several examples where a team that was harmed in one game was helped in another one.

[Candre168]

This is the problem of blaming the ref for the outcome of games, you'll easily find several examples where a team that was harmed in one game was helped in another one.

The ref is an easy excuse, obviously some will be wrong and some will be right, so it's unfair to always blame the ref.

However, there are some examples that are absolutely inexcusable (Argentina's offside goal, Chelsea v Barca 2 CL's ago).

[PMLF]

Argentina's goal was a huge mistake, as was England's non-goal, but in these cases I doubt the outcome of the game would have changed anyway as Argentina and Germany are way better than Mexico and England.

[Micado]

Argentina's goal was a huge mistake, as was England's non-goal, but in these cases I doubt the outcome of the game would have changed anyway as Argentina and Germany are way better than Mexico and England.

Agreed here, while I think if Melo didn't get the red (while deserved for the foul he committed) we would have not won the game. The more reason to have technology helping the ref's

[Candre168]

Argentina's goal was a huge mistake, as was England's non-goal, but in these cases I doubt the outcome of the game would have changed anyway as Argentina and Germany are way better than Mexico and England.

Argentina are better than Mexico, but you can never tell how the game would have gone if that goal didn't stand.

Again with England, 2-2 and it's a completely different game, despite Germany's superiority.

As I said, I don't like blaming the ref because it's a cheap way out of accepting defeat, but some decisions are just shocking.

[PMLF]

Agreed here, while I think if Melo didn't get the red (while deserved for the foul he committed) we would have not won the game. The more reason to have technology helping the ref's

I don't like to discuss ifs, but Brazil was nervous at times in the WC, so probably even if FM hadn't been sent off, you might have won. In a match like this you have to be mentally composed, Brazil fell apart at the first challenge, while your team dealt very well with losing 0-1.

Argentina are better than Mexico, but you can never tell how the game would have gone if that goal didn't stand.

Again with England, 2-2 and it's a completely different game, despite Germany's superiority.

As I said, I don't like blaming the ref because it's a cheap way out of accepting defeat, but some decisions are just shocking.

That was just a short period where England played better, I don't like ifs but I believe Germany would have overcome those mins and go to win the game anyway, as their team is better. It just would have been a closer game, like 3-2 for Germany, or extra-time, etc...

[Candre168]

I think a good example of where the ref can be blamed, is the 2001 FA Cup Final between Arsenal and Liverpool (I'm going back a bit now). Arsenal were about to score from a header, and there was one of the most obvious hand balls of all time that kept it off of the line that was completely missed. Now if the referee gave a penalty, you'd have to assume Henry would score and make it 2-0, in which it was game over. Liverpool won 2-1.

I don't like ifs or blaming the ref either, but sometimes it can be justified if the decision is extremely clear cut.

Either way, part of football is being good enough to beat the referee's decisions.

[Tele Santana]

Candre,

To your points, I don´t think part of football is being good enough to beat the referee´s decision.

Ideally, you´d have to be better than your opponent. Sidelines pressure, officiating issues are good for folklore but they don´t stand a place imo in a modern game - meaning any sport actually.

Although Luis Fabiano clearly handballed - and at least the second one should have been called - this was a different situation from Van Bommel´s overall tactics.

I felt hardly done by South Africa when Uruguay scored its second goal out of a penalty when Suarez was indeed offside. At that same match I had this impression without needing to watch the replay.

As PLMF pointed out, this is a clearly case in which Uruguay is just a better team and would probably had won it anyways, but that is no reason to let the errors go.

My points are: mistakes are bad for the game. The harder, the worst. When they are clearly related to lack of cryteria, even worse.

Excessive attitudes from the players or too dirty tactics should be punished and they bother me (just like Rivaldo did in 2002, I was pretty furious with that ridiculous thing, regardless of him being Brazilian).

Finally, I do think technology should be used. The game already has so many stops.

If you give each manager a challenge flag and let them with two attempts a half - so if after review the decision is kept against him then the opponent is awarded a foul 25 meters out of the challenging team goal and they lose one of the two attempts (if you challenge and you´re right, no reason to lose the prerrogative).

If you allow referees to review a certain set of plays after 40 minutes of the second half as well (say, penalty claims, offsides, etc.) it could help as well.

Cheers,

Tele

[Dutch Dave]

I don't like to discuss ifs, but Brazil was nervous at times in the WC

I was thinking about that. Brazil probably has the most world class players of all countries. You can field one or two really good teams with Brazilian players who weren't even picked in the squad. Anyway, Brazil have so many players who play in the big leagues every week, still they get nervous at this WC. Isn't that because there is sooooo much pressure on them from all the Brazilians who expect them to win the WC? In that case 2014 might be even heavier for the players.

[PMLF]

The WC is a billion times bigger than any league, so playing in those leagues don't prepare you that much to handle a WC IMO.

But I think it was a combination of "coincidences" that made this team so nervous. Felipe Melo is a temperamental player who shouldn't be in the squad, Luís Fabiano is temperamental too and was a first teamer because we have no Romários or Ronaldos, Kaká was too eager to finally prove himself in a WC (which he didn't do in 2002 and 2006), etc...

And Dunga himself is a bit nervous, which might have affected the players as he needed Brazil to win to prove himself to the press and to the public in general. But the media is overestimating this factor, I think.

[Dutch Dave]

But how do the Brazilian people react?

The Dutch commentator of the match said in the first half, when Brazil was outplaying us, something like this:

"When Brazil loses, people in Rio de Janeiro throw their tv-sets out of the window, when Holland loses we are down for a moment but wake up the next day to go to work like nothing happened. And it's showing on the pitch".

He kind of meant that as a compliment for Brazil and their determination, which is something Holland always used to lack. But you can also turn it around. There's so much pressure on the Brazilian players from the homeland. I don't wanna overestimate it but it might be something players struggle with. And when it comes to 2014, that might be killing.

It's kind of the same as with Ajax in the Dutch league. It's the biggest club, won the most prizes, usually has the biggest players. But it's also the club where the expectations and the stress is the most heavy. When you have the players who can cope with that, it's no big deal. But when you have players who just miss that extra bit everything tends to fall apart.

[PMLF]

I doubt many people threw the TVs out of the window (and I have not heard of any of this kind of story) as the relationship between the national team and the fans is pretty distant nowadays as Brazil play most games abroad with foreign-based players (some of which like Michel Bastos are barely known here).

What happens is that the manager and a specific player or players (Roberto Carlos in 2006, Felipe Melo now) get the blame and people move on.

[Candre168]

Tele Santana

It's part of football at the moment unfortunately, because the referee is going to make mistakes every game and you have to be good enough to work through them. Poor offside decisions, clear cut penalties being denied, balls going over the line yet not counting and hand balls being missed, unfortunately it's all part of the game. As a team you have to not let that stumble you and keep fighting and working. I know from personal experience, if you are playing a game and an awful decision goes against you, you can easily lose your edge and concentration.

Dirty tactics though, what do you define as dirty tactics? A player is being overly rough? Well then if the referee doesn't call it, what can you do? If player A thinks he can gain an advantage by being rough on player B, if the referee does nothing, then it's just part of the game. ALL teams do it to an extent, even teams who claim to be fair. You can't blast Van Bommel for that, he's just doing what he thinks will give him an advantage, and video technology won't solve that because you can't challenge very little tackle.

I 100% agree with video technology to help get rid of poor offsides and things like this, but when it comes to a player playing rough, ALL teams have a rough player, and if the ref doesn't do anything then it's just part of the game, play on...

Let me explain though, I am very outspoken when it comes to punishing players who commit career threatening tackles. There is a different between being a bit rough and doing something stupid. In fact my ideas for someone who commits a career threatening tackle seem quite harsh to most (I'd like to see a system where if a player breaks a player's leg by a vicious tackle, 1 year bans are in place).

[DJ]

Tele still crying about van Bommel. Convenient scape goat. One word: Alves. There is no way in hell that you can claim Oranje play dirtier than Brasil or anyone else. Well, you can claim it, but it is bull.

Look, I'm not van Bommels greatest friend (now there's an understatement ), but he's gone from outright dirty (PSV, Barca, 1st season at Bayern) to robust and sometimes taking liberties with risking others' health. Which he shouldn't do theoretically, but the Dutch have been the nicest boy in class for long enough. Screw that. Brasilians have always kicked lumps out of their opponents (if you choose not to believe that, ask Paulo), you can go right away with your tears about 'dirty' van Bommel.

[Tele Santana]

DJ,

You are entitled to your opinion, as childish as it may be including the 'scapegoat' word that gave me a good laugh.

You can also continue stating 'Tele is crying' so on so forth and clearly I made my point about Brazil not deserving to beat Holland in our last match, and my argument actually goes a complete different way. Of course, you can try to twist it to attend your own feelings, so be my guest.

As far as a good-willing debate goes, a player can be very rough, and still try to avoid risk taking other players out of a match or breaking someone´s foot. There are ways to play outmuscling or even 'professional fouling' - holding, pushing, tackling to stop the play, etc.

But it is not Van Bommel´s fault actually. It is the refereeing. I find it ridiculous that the officials would let him do what he consistently did in this World Cup. And actually, I know Van Bommel long before the WCup and he has played this way thorought his career.

As for the generalization around Brazil playing dirty and the Dutch having been angels for so long, that´s a pretty naive view. Brazil had always had cheaters and dirty players just like any other team has had - including European sides, actually. The point I make is that this should be either prevented or punished, even more in today´s game with the resources we have available.

Rivaldo did the same thing he did in 2002 in a match between Corinthians and Flamengo and managed to get a Flamengo player ejected. I think this is ridiculous, in any level.

Oh, and btw, let me tell you: I did celebrate Brazil winning in 2002 despite a Belgium goal which was wrongfully called offsides and Rivaldo´s antics and I hope the Dutch, if their team wins, celebrate with all the joy they will deserve. It doesn´t prevent me to take notice of what happens in the field.

Daniel Alves had been nervous in this Cup as well. Technically a bitter disappointment, yes he played dirty as much as Felipe Melo also did. And Van Bommel.

Cheers,

Tele

[iamjerome]

regardless of how dirty he's been or is naturally (conniving little ****), reckon van bommel's probably been netherlands' best player tbf.

[masteR+_+]

What an annoying little thread this has turned into.