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Official Spain WC thread

aggressive minor

By aggressive minor,
in 2010 World Cup Forum

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samba23

samba23

Posted
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this is just wrong. marcos senna was THE "defensive midfielder", and whilst naturally he is a bit more attacking, his role in 2008 is what largely contributed to their success. he may not be exactly a "ball winner" but he is intelligent and can pass, he played the role to perfection.

busquets also may not be a mascherano, but he needs to play the same kind of role than senna did back then. it's not all about being a massive tackler, and whilst he is still young and has a lot to learn, he has played in the role for barca well enough.

it is vital that someone sits in this team, as a dm, or however you want to describe it and that is most likely going to be busquets (alongside xabi alonso).

Missing the point somewhat.

Marcos Senna is a defensive midfielder, but not a ball winner. In the same way that Xavi, Xabi Alonso and Fabregas are defensive midfielders but not ball winners.

I would argue that Spain in Euro 2008 played with two defensive midfielders in Xavi and Senna. My point was what's the need for Busquets in the team when Spain already have Xavi, Xabi Alonso, Senna and Fabregas? He's no more defensively able than those players, although a better way to make that point would be to say that Xavi et al are no less defensively able than Busquets.

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Crazy_T

Crazy_T

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xavi and cesc are not defensive midfielders under any definition though really. xabi alonso maybe yes you could say so.

marcos senna isn't naturally a defensive midfielder, but the role he played in 08 was just that.

look the point is, is that spain need that ONE player who won't go foward, who will sit and who will play it simple - and whether you like it or not that is (natural central midfielder, but playing as a defensive one) sergi busquets.

I know you are bizarrely anti-busquets, but that kind of player will be vital. against lesser teams, you could get away with just xabi alonso or cesc, but against the better sides he is needed.

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samba23

samba23

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look the point is, is that spain need that ONE player who won't go foward, who will sit and who will play it simple

I know you are bizarrely anti-busquets, but that kind of player will be vital. against lesser teams, you could get away with just xabi alonso or cesc, but against the better sides he is needed.

Which is exactly what Xavi, Senna and Xabi Alonso do. They don't get forward a la Lampard and Gerrard, they stay in the middle and dictate play from there. Fabregas is the same as Xavi - he prefers to play deeper but Wenger plays him further up the pitch.

You are bizarrely pro-Busquets. I mean honestly what do you see in him?

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Crazy_T

Crazy_T

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xavi does it, but xavi can't defend to save his life, so he's a bit of a liability and the reason for busquets next to him.

spain will likely play with 2 holding midfielders, xabi alonso and busquets. xavi will play slightly further forward.

now xabi alonso isn't the greatest defensively and is a bit of a girl hence the inclusion of busquets alongside him and NOT xavi. I suppose cesc could play the same role as busquets could but he won't be used a defensive midfielder and is usually the first replacement for xavi (as an attacking midfielder). would you want cesc as the most defensive sitting mid? - no.

it's not that I think busquets is great or anything, it's that I understand the ROLE he will play in not doing much offensively and him being back all the time is important (particularly against stronger sides where xabi alone is not enough).

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Deathorglory

Deathorglory

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I cannot see how, in any world on this earth, Fabregas or Xavi can be qualified as defensive midfielders. Just becuase they like to start moves from deep doesn't mean they are defensive midfielders - in that case so is Lampard, and please don't tell me he is. Both of them are attack minded players who score and assist lots, a defensive midfielder shouldn't be doing that, they shouldn't be far enough up the pitch to be scoring and assisting constantly. To say they are naturally inclined defensive midfielders being played out of position is just laughable.

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iamjerome

iamjerome

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just a pipedream you're speaking of samba, easily workable in FM though (! had the best trio ever going when i bought cesc for barca and played xavi as a 'dm', and him and iniesta as mc's but the plan was just to never lose the ball) doesn't quite work like that in real life mind. as just because xavi etc 'sits back' doesn't mean he (or cesc can) compensate enough to stop counters etc, which is going to be critical as that will be what spain's opponents will probably rely on.

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samba23

samba23

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"Xavi can't defend to save his life"

I recommend you to watch Barcelona. I mean actually watch and see what happens when they lose the ball. Xavi, Keita, whoever is playing in midfield closes down the opponents and win the ball back almost immediately by pressuring the opposing team. Xavi does this very well, even Iniesta does this very well, it is not only Busquets who is defensive. Actually watch a game and see how many times Xavi wins the ball back and how many times Busquets wins the ball back and then tell me that Xavi can't defend and that Busquets is superior defensively.

To deathorglory - I'm not saying Xavi is a defensive midfielder. Mascherano is a defensive midfielder, Kaka is an attacking midfielder, Xavi does both roles. He is ... a midfielder.

When you have Kaka in midfield obviously you need a defensive midfielder to compensate for him. When you have Xavi and Xabi Alonso (or Senna or Fabregas) I don't think you need a defensive midfielder to compensate because they do a role defensively as well. As Senna did at Euro 2008 and Xavi did too but obviously no-one noticed Xavi's role defensively.

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Crazy_T

Crazy_T

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well spain aren't barcelona, they don't play under guardiola, and it isn't xavi's job to defend.

what i'm saying, that you're somehow failing to grasp is that spain need one defensive player to compensate for everything else. they need a balance, and busquets is there to provide it (like senna in 2008). he held for xavi (not saying xavi didn't do some defending, but it's not his strength or his main job).

busquets will be the deepest midfielder, the same as he is for barca, to provide important protection to the defence - it really is that simple.

                busquets

        x.alonso
                     xavi
silva                         iniesta

                villa

something like that I suspect

now xavi is well capable of playing the alonso role there, I am fully aware of the fact that he is a central midfielder first and foremost, but he can't and never ever will play the role that is vital here - busquets' role infront of the defence.

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Deathorglory

Deathorglory

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To deathorglory - I'm not saying Xavi is a defensive midfielder. Mascherano is a defensive midfielder, Kaka is an attacking midfielder, Xavi does both roles. He is ... a midfielder.
Marcos Senna is a defensive midfielder, but not a ball winner. In the same way that Xavi, Xabi Alonso and Fabregas are defensive midfielders but not ball winners.

I beg to differ.

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iamjerome

iamjerome

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'xavi, keita, whoever is playing in midfield...' - do you mean busquets or yaya youre the defensive midfielders there then? as certainly one of those two always play with xavi and iniesta, or keita these days. i understand your point, yes, they defend through as a team but that doesn't mean they don't need a proper capable player anchoring either.

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Crazy_T

Crazy_T

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my reyes tribute to diving is already on otf2 in the europa thread, I need not continue in here.

and I will do my best to put my life on hold for chat, I promise.

ON TOPIC: reyes' time at the national team is over and i'm not convinced he is good enough or a better option than santi (when fit), navas, mata, or pedro (or even pedro león or pablo hernández). then obviously iniesta and silva.

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G-Man11

G-Man11

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Interestingly he was mentioned by Vicente del Bosque.

Spain coach Vicente Del Bosque has admitted it was difficult to select a provisional World Cup squad of 30 players because of the number of in-form players he had to leave out of the squad.

"It was hard. If you look at Mallorca, I could have brought Borja [Valero]; if you look at [Athletic] Bilbao, [Andoni] Iraola; if you look at [Deportivo] La Coruna, [Daniel] Aranzubia; if you look at [Atletico] Madrid, [Jose Antonio] Reyes, [Alvaro] Dominguez...," he was quoted as saying by AS.

But as I said he was never going to make it.

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Noob21

Noob21

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Arteta not being mentioned at all. What must the guy do (short of switching to LB) to get in the squad? Does he even get looked at by del Bosque?

Go back in time, be born in Catalonia and have a famous footballer father :D

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samba23

samba23

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If Arteta had a famous footballer father then he might have had a chance of breaking into the Barca first team.

I'm presuming Noob21 is referring to Sergio Busquets whose father was a goalkeeper for Barca and is now a goakeeping coach at Barca.

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RubenJ

RubenJ

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If Arteta had a famous footballer father then he might have had a chance of breaking into the Barca first team.

I'm presuming Noob21 is referring to Sergio Busquets whose father was a goalkeeper for Barca and is now a goakeeping coach at Barca.

but Busquets' father has nothing to do with anything. Pep doesn't select players based on rubbish like that, and it was him who brought Sergio into the first team.

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Crazy_T

Crazy_T

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Arteta is a quality player who would walk into most national teams. Its just spain have an embarrassment of talent in CM but to call him overrated is laughable.

yeah, have always like arteta really, not overrated at all.

just a poor man's cesc though unfortunately.

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