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Dar2000

Realistic Attributes replacing CA/PA

70 posts in this topic

It has been brought up many times on the forums that young players future development is already determined on FM because of there PA(Potential Ability) stat, no matter how good their coaches are. There have been discussions to possibly change this approach for future FM games. I certainly think that PA should be scrapped and possibly also CA(Current Ability).

By removing these stats from the game and using more realistic attributes I think it could greatly improve the realism of FM.

Im not talking about changing the current system of 1-20, but that the values of each attribute have a higher impact on performance the lower the level(division or reputation of league) the player is playing in. For example a striker with finishing, technique and composure of '8' in the 3rd division might bag 30 goals a season, but unless trained by a good striking coach to improve his attributes would really struggle in the 1st division.

My suggestion is that for players to succeed at certain levels they must require high enough attributes in key areas. Lets use the English Leagues as an example.

For a player to be a good/top player in:

The Premiership

'14-20' (At this level high Technical Attributes are essential)

The Championship

'11-16'

League One

'7-12'

League Two and Below

'3-8'

Obviously the reputation of each league comes into play aswel. The big three, England, Spain and Italy would all have similar structures, then Germany, France, Holland, Portugal would require slightly less in their respective divisions and so on.

You could also go a step further and in the data have a stat that rates each nations style of play. Eg. Spain is considered to attrct a higher number of technically gifted players, where as England would have fewer technically gifted players but more physical and better tacklers, and Italian teams known to have superior defences to any other european teams.

This would also make European games more realistic because atm, I think the game favours physical attributes more than technical which is why English teams win the European cups too often.

This system would mean attributes are changing up and down on a weekly basis depending on confidence, morale, training, personal problems, injuries, motivation, relationship with manager/team mates. Irl, all these without doubt have temporary, if not longer, affects on players abilities

For me this could solve the problem of a lack of quality regens and place more emphises on training and scouting, particularly of young players from lower divisions, whereas at the moment, it's impossible for a young player in the third division to ever progress unless his PA is set high. I also find that when managing a top club, say Man Utd, you can send scouts out to Africa, Asia, Scandinavia and specify you are looking for players under 20 only for your scout to find none. However by doing a manual search, I always find young players with potential in their attributes but deep down I know they will never make it at a high level because the scouts in the game are looking for the PA

I also think it's time for height and weight to become a realistic factor, and not just cosmetic text. I often see 15 year old regen center backs who are 6'3, while not impossible, most teens have a growth spurt at 18,19,20. Young players body's change so much which can have a huge affect on their footballing abilities.

I hope I have put my points across well. I found it more difficult than I thought to explain what I was thinking. Please let me know what you think and continue to add suggestions.

Thanks icon_smile.gif

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It has been brought up many times on the forums that young players future development is already determined on FM because of there PA(Potential Ability) stat, no matter how good their coaches are. There have been discussions to possibly change this approach for future FM games. I certainly think that PA should be scrapped and possibly also CA(Current Ability).

By removing these stats from the game and using more realistic attributes I think it could greatly improve the realism of FM.

Im not talking about changing the current system of 1-20, but that the values of each attribute have a higher impact on performance the lower the level(division or reputation of league) the player is playing in. For example a striker with finishing, technique and composure of '8' in the 3rd division might bag 30 goals a season, but unless trained by a good striking coach to improve his attributes would really struggle in the 1st division.

My suggestion is that for players to succeed at certain levels they must require high enough attributes in key areas. Lets use the English Leagues as an example.

For a player to be a good/top player in:

The Premiership

'14-20' (At this level high Technical Attributes are essential)

The Championship

'11-16'

League One

'7-12'

League Two and Below

'3-8'

Obviously the reputation of each league comes into play aswel. The big three, England, Spain and Italy would all have similar structures, then Germany, France, Holland, Portugal would require slightly less in their respective divisions and so on.

You could also go a step further and in the data have a stat that rates each nations style of play. Eg. Spain is considered to attrct a higher number of technically gifted players, where as England would have fewer technically gifted players but more physical and better tacklers, and Italian teams known to have superior defences to any other european teams.

This would also make European games more realistic because atm, I think the game favours physical attributes more than technical which is why English teams win the European cups too often.

This system would mean attributes are changing up and down on a weekly basis depending on confidence, morale, training, personal problems, injuries, motivation, relationship with manager/team mates. Irl, all these without doubt have temporary, if not longer, affects on players abilities

For me this could solve the problem of a lack of quality regens and place more emphises on training and scouting, particularly of young players from lower divisions, whereas at the moment, it's impossible for a young player in the third division to ever progress unless his PA is set high. I also find that when managing a top club, say Man Utd, you can send scouts out to Africa, Asia, Scandinavia and specify you are looking for players under 20 only for your scout to find none. However by doing a manual search, I always find young players with potential in their attributes but deep down I know they will never make it at a high level because the scouts in the game are looking for the PA

I also think it's time for height and weight to become a realistic factor, and not just cosmetic text. I often see 15 year old regen center backs who are 6'3, while not impossible, most teens have a growth spurt at 18,19,20. Young players body's change so much which can have a huge affect on their footballing abilities.

I hope I have put my points across well. I found it more difficult than I thought to explain what I was thinking. Please let me know what you think and continue to add suggestions.

Thanks icon_smile.gif

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Another post where people think that everyone can be trained to be perfect!!!

There are certain things where you can't get any better hence to code a game correctly you need to give it a boundary hence PA.

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icon14.gificon14.gificon14.gif

just don't agree on changing attributes on weekly basis. that's not realistic. then form and moral wouldn't important anymore...I hope this makes sense.

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I'm with stumostro on this one, not everybody can be trained to be a top flight player, even if they have the best coaches in the world. Having the PA there means that only the players IRL that do have the potential (as highlighed by the researchers) excel in the game.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

Another post where people think that everyone can be trained to be perfect!!!

There are certain things where you can't get any better hence to code a game correctly you need to give it a boundary hence PA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol

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if someone has finishing 5 at age of 18, how the .... can he have 20 at any age.

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not to mention that of CA/PA system you constantly get unrealisticly over rated players.

ex. look at aimar or djourou on editor and then in the game. you'll see every atribute is higher by 2 points in the game. that's becouse CA is more important then his atributes. I can't believe SI didn't sort it long time ago.

without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common...

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

if someone has finishing 5 at age of 18, how the .... can he have 20 at any age. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was the point i was making!!

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't look at the PA then!!! That way its still a gamble!!!

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I'm so tired of disccusing this metter, so I won't.

I told everything I had to up there. the only smart argument you can give me is that, the game needs this system, for now. and I can accept it. but it's not realistic

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't look at the PA then!!! That way its still a gamble!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you just don't get it. bye

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What you are suggesting is an ability system with no spine in it, it's just limp and floppy with no way of controlling it.

There have to be limits in player progression or decline. PA and CA provide that. Whether people like it or not certain players will NEVER progress beyong the level they are at. They simply do not have the potential no matter what environment they are put in.

I hope we don't ever see fluctuating attributes either. In fact I campaigned against the fluctuating atrributes that the training produced three or four versions back.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

I'm so tired of disccusing this metter, so I won't.

I told everything I had to up there. the only smart argument you can give me is that, the game needs this system, for now. and I can accept it. but it's not realistic </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It IS realistic. What isn't realistic is the steady improvement of players, rather than peaks and troughs of improvement.

Promising players often turn out to be average or even poor later on. Looking at the PA is not meant to be part of the game. It's like reading the last page of a book, then complaining that the book is too predictable.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jay The Sheriff:

I'm with stumostro on this one, not everybody can be trained to be a top flight player, even if they have the best coaches in the world. Having the PA there means that only the players IRL that do have the potential (as highlighed by the researchers) excel in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not saying that every player will have the potential to be a top player, quite the opposite, very few will. But this way players can improve and progress through divisions with a combination of form, growth, confidence, training instead of AI clubs just looking for CA/PA. This would also solve the international problem of coaches only looking at CA and not form.

The point you made about the researches only giving high PA to the players with potential is exactly whats wrong with this game! It's the players that are showing potential for the 07/08 season!! What about young players irl who will develop into top players over the next few years who arn't rated in FM08. Wayne Rooney in CM01/02 is the prime example of this.

Surely you agree that the game should have other variables in youth development and not pre-determined ability, it's crazy icon_confused.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't look at the PA then!!! That way its still a gamble!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you just don't get it. bye </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't get what? That by using a pice of 3rd party software to look at a hidden stat its ruining the game because you know exactly whos good and whos bad???

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CA and PA are the most realistic system I can ever see the game having. There are problems with it, but these need to be ironed out, not the whole system replaced.

Previously, players were all reaching their PA eventually. This was a problem, but has been reduced in FM08. IMO it still happens too much, but that's by the by.

Now, players don't seem to develop at realistic speeds. The standard of coaches/training doesn't seem to make any difference, and there are far too many 18 year olds that the scouts say 'isn't likely to improve in the future'. Players should be majorly influenced by the standard of training they receive, and the vast vast vast majority of players should improve between 18 and 21.

Also, CA and PA play too large a role in the performance of players, and the way they are judged by scouts. Scouts should see the same set of stats that we do, and make judgements on this. Player potential should be a lot more hit-and-miss: while you may be able to tell how much a player is likely to improve to a degree by looking at his work ethic or similar character traits, a lot of it comes down to looking at his ability compared to players of a similar age. My scout should be saying 'he is good at shooting now, and given that he is only 16 he has plenty of room for improvement. Sign him up', not looking at PA and judging accordingly (taking account of the random factor introduced by the scouts stats). Similarly, all game mechanics (i.e. in the match engine) should be based on attributes, not on CA. CA should be the constraining factor for his abilities (in the same way that PA should constrain his maximum possible attributes) but it should not be used by the AI as a judge of his ability.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't look at the PA then!!! That way its still a gamble!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you just don't get it. bye </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't get what? That by using a pice of 3rd party software to look at a hidden stat its ruining the game because you know exactly whos good and whos bad??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also why do people put 'bye' at the end of a sentance when they don't agree with someone? Im entitled to an opinion just like you. If you don't want a discussion don't post anything.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dar2000:

Im not saying that every player will have the potential to be a top player, quite the opposite, very few will. But this way players can improve and progress through divisions with a combination of form, growth, confidence, training instead of AI clubs just looking for CA/PA. This would also solve the international problem of coaches only looking at CA and not form. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not just make coaches and scouts take form into account? Surely that is the correct solution to the game's player perception problems?

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Ben Foster another example, do you think in FM08 you could sign a reserve 22 year old goal keeper from a leauge one side that within 2 seasons will have played for England. Ok I admit, extremely rare irl aswel but possible.

As for no spine in the system, I can see your point but keeping the CA and doing away with PA would solve this surely?

That means the game starts with accurate research done but as the seasons go on anything can happen to players abilities as irl. We dont know whats going to happen in the future so why not make it the same in FM.

It baffles me to be honest considering the game has been around for so long and with what developers can do on computers now a days

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by playmaker:

Why not just make coaches and scouts take form into account? Surely that is the correct solution to the game's player perception problems? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, I touched on that in my original post. I said scouts only look for CA/PA and not attributes or form.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by playmaker:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

I'm so tired of disccusing this metter, so I won't.

I told everything I had to up there. the only smart argument you can give me is that, the game needs this system, for now. and I can accept it. but it's not realistic </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It IS realistic. What isn't realistic is the steady improvement of players, rather than peaks and troughs of improvement.

Promising players often turn out to be average or even poor later on. Looking at the PA is not meant to be part of the game. It's like reading the last page of a book, then complaining that the book is too predictable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not looking at PA, but I assure AI does.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sten_super:

CA and PA are the most realistic system I can ever see the game having. There are problems with it, but these need to be ironed out, not the whole system replaced.

Previously, players were all reaching their PA eventually. This was a problem, but has been reduced in FM08. IMO it still happens too much, but that's by the by.

Now, players don't seem to develop at realistic speeds. The standard of coaches/training doesn't seem to make any difference, and there are far too many 18 year olds that the scouts say 'isn't likely to improve in the future'. Players should be majorly influenced by the standard of training they receive, and the vast vast vast majority of players should improve between 18 and 21.

Also, CA and PA play too large a role in the performance of players, and the way they are judged by scouts. Scouts should see the same set of stats that we do, and make judgements on this. Player potential should be a lot more hit-and-miss: while you may be able to tell how much a player is likely to improve to a degree by looking at his work ethic or similar character traits, a lot of it comes down to looking at his ability compared to players of a similar age. My scout should be saying 'he is good at shooting now, and given that he is only 16 he has plenty of room for improvement. Sign him up', not looking at PA and judging accordingly (taking account of the random factor introduced by the scouts stats). Similarly, all game mechanics (i.e. in the match engine) should be based on attributes, not on CA. CA should be the constraining factor for his abilities (in the same way that PA should constrain his maximum possible attributes) but it should not be used by the AI as a judge of his ability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

icon14.gif stumostro read this....

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't look at the PA then!!! That way its still a gamble!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you just don't get it. bye </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't get what? That by using a pice of 3rd party software to look at a hidden stat its ruining the game because you know exactly whos good and whos bad??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also why do people put 'bye' at the end of a sentance when they don't agree with someone? Im entitled to an opinion just like you. If you don't want a discussion don't post anything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was pisted off becouse you didn't put any argument you said only this: "Another post where people think that everyone can be trained to be perfect!!!

There are certain things where you can't get any better hence to code a game correctly you need to give it a boundary hence PA."

what is this. argument? Dar2000 put some effort in his post and a quite good one I think. and you said. f... o... you s... m..... f.....

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sten_super:

Also, CA and PA play too large a role in the performance of players, and the way they are judged by scouts. Scouts should see the same set of stats that we do, and make judgements on this. Player potential should be a lot more hit-and-miss: while you may be able to tell how much a player is likely to improve to a degree by looking at his work ethic or similar character traits, a lot of it comes down to looking at his ability compared to players of a similar age. My scout should be saying 'he is good at shooting now, and given that he is only 16 he has plenty of room for improvement. Sign him up', not looking at PA and judging accordingly (taking account of the random factor introduced by the scouts stats). Similarly, all game mechanics (i.e. in the match engine) should be based on attributes, not on CA. CA should be the constraining factor for his abilities (in the same way that PA should constrain his maximum possible attributes) but it should not be used by the AI as a judge of his ability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good points, I definitly think your on the right track but I dont think CA/PA is as realistic as it can get, as you have said previously

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sten_super:

CA and PA are the most realistic system I can ever see the game having. There are problems with it, but these need to be ironed out, not the whole system replaced.

Previously, players were all reaching their PA eventually. This was a problem, but has been reduced in FM08. IMO it still happens too much, but that's by the by.

Now, players don't seem to develop at realistic speeds. The standard of coaches/training doesn't seem to make any difference, and there are far too many 18 year olds that the scouts say 'isn't likely to improve in the future'. Players should be majorly influenced by the standard of training they receive, and the vast vast vast majority of players should improve between 18 and 21.

Also, CA and PA play too large a role in the performance of players, and the way they are judged by scouts. Scouts should see the same set of stats that we do, and make judgements on this. Player potential should be a lot more hit-and-miss: while you may be able to tell how much a player is likely to improve to a degree by looking at his work ethic or similar character traits, a lot of it comes down to looking at his ability compared to players of a similar age. My scout should be saying 'he is good at shooting now, and given that he is only 16 he has plenty of room for improvement. Sign him up', not looking at PA and judging accordingly (taking account of the random factor introduced by the scouts stats). Similarly, all game mechanics (i.e. in the match engine) should be based on attributes, not on CA. CA should be the constraining factor for his abilities (in the same way that PA should constrain his maximum possible attributes) but it should not be used by the AI as a judge of his ability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

icon14.gif stumostro read this.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about it?

What he's saying is that scouts shouldn't just be looking at the PA, which i agree with and from what i have read before it is set so that the scouts don't get it right every time and from my experience they don't. They have recomended me players which have turned out to be duffers.

My main point is that doing away with CA/PA wouldn't work because there has to be a boundary for the game to work!

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dar2000:

Ben Foster another example, do you think in FM08 you could sign a reserve 22 year old goal keeper from a leauge one side that within 2 seasons will have played for England. Ok I admit, extremely rare irl aswel but possible.

As for no spine in the system, I can see your point but keeping the CA and doing away with PA would solve this surely?

That means the game starts with accurate research done but as the seasons go on anything can happen to players abilities as irl. We dont know whats going to happen in the future so why not make it the same in FM.

It baffles me to be honest considering the game has been around for so long and with what developers can do on computers now a days </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but actually instead of removing PA, you're actually in reality suggesting that CA should remain as is and PA should be set to 200/unlimited for EVERY player? To me that is the effect of what you're saying.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Law_Man:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dar2000:

Ben Foster another example, do you think in FM08 you could sign a reserve 22 year old goal keeper from a leauge one side that within 2 seasons will have played for England. Ok I admit, extremely rare irl aswel but possible.

As for no spine in the system, I can see your point but keeping the CA and doing away with PA would solve this surely?

That means the game starts with accurate research done but as the seasons go on anything can happen to players abilities as irl. We dont know whats going to happen in the future so why not make it the same in FM.

It baffles me to be honest considering the game has been around for so long and with what developers can do on computers now a days </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but actually instead of removing PA, you're actually in reality suggesting that CA should remain as is and PA should be set to 200/unlimited for EVERY player? To me that is the effect of what you're saying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no. this is effect, now.

CA and PA are the most realistic system I can ever see the game having. There are problems with it, but these need to be ironed out, not the whole system replaced.

Previously, players were all reaching their PA eventually. This was a problem, but has been reduced in FM08. IMO it still happens too much, but that's by the by.

Now, players don't seem to develop at realistic speeds. The standard of coaches/training doesn't seem to make any difference, and there are far too many 18 year olds that the scouts say 'isn't likely to improve in the future'. Players should be majorly influenced by the standard of training they receive, and the vast vast vast majority of players should improve between 18 and 21.

Also, CA and PA play too large a role in the performance of players, and the way they are judged by scouts. Scouts should see the same set of stats that we do, and make judgements on this. Player potential should be a lot more hit-and-miss: while you may be able to tell how much a player is likely to improve to a degree by looking at his work ethic or similar character traits, a lot of it comes down to looking at his ability compared to players of a similar age. My scout should be saying 'he is good at shooting now, and given that he is only 16 he has plenty of room for improvement. Sign him up', not looking at PA and judging accordingly (taking account of the random factor introduced by the scouts stats). Similarly, all game mechanics (i.e. in the match engine) should be based on attributes, not on CA. CA should be the constraining factor for his abilities (in the same way that PA should constrain his maximum possible attributes) but it should not be used by the AI as a judge of his ability.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Law_Man:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but actually instead of removing PA, you're actually in reality suggesting that CA should remain as is and PA should be set to 200/unlimited for EVERY player? To me that is the effect of what you're saying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well in a way yes, but I dont think that would improve things at all. By removing it altogether, players development would soley depend on training, training facilities, form confidence etc....

Obviously irl there are some young players who from an early age we know are going to become world class players because they somehow have pure natural talent, but there are lots of players who because of a number of factors develop late, some in their 20's.

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I also wanted to ask those of you who say without CA/PA theres no spine, why can't the match engine be programmed on attributes alone, aswell of course as morale and confidence?

You might say well then anyone with superior attributes will always play well, but if confidence and morale were low on a top player, his 'work rate' and 'teamwork' might drop considerably therefore he's not really interested or giving near 100% of his best. A striker with low confidence would have a low 'finishing' attribute and it would be up to you to find away to moivate him, placing more importance on team talks for example.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dar2000:

I also wanted to ask those of you who say without CA/PA theres no spine, why can't the match engine be programmed on attributes alone, aswell of course as morale and confidence?

You might say well then anyone with superior attributes will always play well, but if confidence and morale were low on a top player, his 'work rate' and 'teamwork' might drop considerably therefore he's not really interested or giving near 100% of his best. A striker with low confidence would have a low 'finishing' attribute and it would be up to you to find away to moivate him, placing more importance on team talks for example. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The match engine IS programmed on attributes alone. CA and PA only govern how those attributes change over the course of time.

You can't drop attributes according to low confidence - you would have no idea what level to return them to when confidence returns. Michael Owen when he is lacking confidence might play like a League 2 dtriker, but when he is on his game how do create the obvious gap in class when you have altered his attributes.

And what would happen mid match when a striker gets his first goal after a barren spell - does the value in the database change? That is simply not practical.

Morale already has a big effect on performance - you don't need to modify the attributes for that to happen.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dar2000:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Law_Man:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but actually instead of removing PA, you're actually in reality suggesting that CA should remain as is and PA should be set to 200/unlimited for EVERY player? To me that is the effect of what you're saying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well in a way yes, but I dont think that would improve things at all. By removing it altogether, players development would soley depend on training, training facilities, form confidence etc....

Obviously irl there are some young players who from an early age we know are going to become world class players because they somehow have pure natural talent, but there are lots of players who because of a number of factors develop late, some in their 20's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Law_Man is absolutely right, there is no difference between every player being set to 200 PA or removing PA totally, yet you say the first way won't work. That doesn't make sense.

How do you define natural talent if you don't store it a s a value? Ronaldo has more natural talent than Benjani, who has more natural talent than Lee Trundle who has more natural talent than me. You have to have a way of representing that.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dar2000:

I also wanted to ask those of you who say without CA/PA theres no spine, why can't the match engine be programmed on attributes alone, aswell of course as morale and confidence?

You might say well then anyone with superior attributes will always play well, but if confidence and morale were low on a top player, his 'work rate' and 'teamwork' might drop considerably therefore he's not really interested or giving near 100% of his best. A striker with low confidence would have a low 'finishing' attribute and it would be up to you to find away to moivate him, placing more importance on team talks for example. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as I see how things go IRE, most important factors on player development are;

- luck. first thing that everyone needs. injuries, moving clubs, relationships...

- age and peak. every yongster can improve. some earlier, some later. even old players improve-> experince

- player can't improve much if he's not playing matches. of course he can improve stamina and strenght... but his mental attributes even decline if he's not playing matches. SAF and wenger know that, that's why they give their youngsters a chance. playing at higher level (against better quality players) is the key.

<- moving to better leagues. even older player should improve if he moves from croatian to english league, if given the chance to play.

- everyone's favourite- training facilities (if this is so important, where are english youngsters then, you have best facilities in the world? I'm not sure brazil has the best.I think street is exellant facility)

- personality. inteligent and dedicated player improves much qiucker that one who's not

that's about it. there are probably millions of things that influence player's improvement but these are the most important ones.

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Players don't necessaily improve by playing at a higher level. Some actually get worse.

Other than that I agree that all those factors should affect player progression. Most do, but the level of effect is debatable.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by playmaker:

Players don't necessaily improve by playing at a higher level. Some actually get worse.

Other than that I agree that all those factors should affect player progression. Most do, but the level of effect is debatable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

of course not necessaily. that's why I said there are millions of factors.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

not to mention that of CA/PA system you constantly get unrealisticly over rated players.

ex. look at aimar or djourou on editor and then in the game. you'll see every atribute is higher by 2 points in the game. that's becouse CA is more important then his atributes. I can't believe SI didn't sort it long time ago.

without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

why are you talking about realism if you look at their PA?

no system will be realistic if you use some sort of cheat to look in the code and see how players will develop.

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The problem with removing PA is that there is suddenly then no constraint on ability... you could sign a 16 year old pile of rubbish from a League 2 team, train him up in your excellent youth facilities, and after 3 years he's Michael Owen. Whereas all world-class players are players that have played for their country at a range of ages (i.e. U16, U18, U21 etc). They have always had a level of natural ability beyond that of other players; very few players suddenly rise in ability from complete obscurity to stardom.

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PA is aleays going to be needed in the game. It's the best representation you're going to get of what happens in real life. No arguments here please, by the time a kid's 15 (i.e the point when they would enter the FM world) their natural ability and their surroundings and experiences in the previous 15 years will have pretty much shaped their potential. At this point that kid will have a level where he'll never get any better no matter what happens.

I always use the same example to try and get people to grasp why PA definitely does exist in real life and it's this; you take ten similar 16 year old players and give them all the same coaching for 5 years. At the end of those 5 years you'll find that they are all at different levels of ability. Some will be much better than others. At least one will stand out above the rest and in the same way at least one will be a lot poorer than the rest. This is because they all had different potential and despite the same training and coaching they all had different points when they became as good as they could get.

Now what we do need is more players in the database with higher PA but a much more sophisticated development model. This will mean that many players will have the potential to be good, but not all players will reach their potential as many more factors will govern this.

For more info on my ideas on this have a read of this thread

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sten_super:

The problem with removing PA is that there is suddenly then no constraint on ability... you could sign a 16 year old pile of rubbish from a League 2 team, train him up in your excellent youth facilities, and after 3 years he's Michael Owen. Whereas all world-class players are players that have played for their country at a range of ages (i.e. U16, U18, U21 etc). They have always had a level of natural ability beyond that of other players; very few players suddenly rise in ability from complete obscurity to stardom. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

why? if you have 2 youngsters with these key atributes (same age);

- striker 1

finishing 7, technique 6, anticipation 8, off the ball 8, work rate 5, determination 7.

I don't see why and how he could turn into world class.

- striker 2

fin 11, tech 10, antic 8, off 10, wr 8, deter 16

now look at this 2 players, it seems that player 2 has much better atributes for being a goog player. but in the current system if player 1 has batter PA then player 2, he's gonna be better, and that's the problem, don't you think so. CA-atributes should determine how good could player be. if he has his finishing atribute 7, there is no way he clould have 20 (not even 13 in my opinoum), no metter training facilities or whatever. so it means that CA at young age also sets PA. for example, cesc or cristiano were so good at age of 15, they could compare to premiership standards. and that's why they had potential. not becouse someone said they have, no one can tell what's gonna happen in future. what if cesc had realy nasty injury at age of 16 and never been given a chance to play for arsenal. what would then be his PA now. 120?

the other even bigger problem is that AI isn't looking for key atributes, it's looking for CA/PA. changing that system would bring more reality, gambling and working with players. as I said I have no problem accepting this system, but it defenetly isn't realistic.

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Mitja, that would mean you could immediately tell the future superstars and would completely kill long term games.

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I don't think I understand you playmaker. what, why?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by playmaker:

Mitja, that would mean you could immediately tell the future superstars and would completely kill long term games. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

most important factors on player development are;

- luck. first thing that everyone needs. injuries, moving clubs, relationships...

- age and peak. every yongster can improve. some earlier, some later. even old players improve-> experince

- player can't improve much if he's not playing matches. of course he can improve stamina and strenght... but his mental attributes even decline if he's not playing matches. SAF and wenger know that, that's why they give their youngsters a chance. playing at higher level (against better quality players) is the key.

<- moving to better leagues. even older player should improve if he moves from croatian to english league, if given the chance to play.

- everyone's favourite- training facilities (if this is so important, where are english youngsters then, you have best facilities in the world? I'm not sure brazil has the best.I think street is exellant facility)

- personality. inteligent and dedicated player improves much qiucker that one who's not

that's about it. there are probably millions of things that influence player's improvement but these are the most important ones.

icon_biggrin.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

why? if you have 2 youngsters with these key atributes (same age);

- striker 1

finishing 7, technique 6, anticipation 8, off the ball 8, work rate 5, determination 7.

I don't see why and how he could turn into world class.

- striker 2

fin 11, tech 10, antic 8, off 10, wr 8, deter 16

now look at this 2 players, it seems that player 2 has much better atributes for being a goog player. but in the current system if player 1 has batter PA then player 2, he's gonna be better, and that's the problem, don't you think so. CA-atributes should determine how good could player be. if he has his finishing atribute 7, there is no way he clould have 20 (not even 13 in my opinoum), no metter training facilities or whatever. so it means that CA at young age also sets PA. for example, cesc or cristiano were so good at age of 15, they could compare to premiership standards. and that's why they had potential. not becouse someone said they have, no one can tell what's gonna happen in future. what if cesc had realy nasty injury at age of 16 and never been given a chance to play for arsenal. what would then be his PA now. 120?

the other even bigger problem is that AI isn't looking for key atributes, it's looking for CA/PA. changing that system would bring more reality, gambling and working with players. as I said I have no problem accepting this system, but it defenetly isn't realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are not asking for the system of CA/PA to be changed at all; just that there is a much closer link between attributes and CA. Which I agree with entirely.

With regards to playmakers point that you would be able to identify good players from their stats... to a degree that is true, yes. But surely that's how real life scouting works? You watch a player, notice that he has good finishing (or off the ball movement, or composure; it doesn't have to be the 'primary' stat for a position) and think that, given his age and mentality, that he may well be able to improve, so let's sign him up. What I would say is that in order for my suggested earlier system to work, you would need a few things

i) Much better fog of war. In order to find out about the reserve players at (say) Liverpool, I would need to scout at least 3 of their games. This may even require fuzzy values (i.e. scouts can put a players ability to within 5 points after seeing 1 game, 3 points after 2 games, etc) although I can see that would be a bigger change to the mechanics. However I should not be able to know exactly what a Liverpool U18 prospect is good at just because he plays for Liverpool. This would ensure that it is difficult to pick up all of the good prospects, without a massive scouting network.

ii) Varying progression over age. Not all players should improve with age. And it must be much much harder to reach PA. This way you could sign up a 15 year old with good stats (for his age) but watch, as due to a lack of application and other effects, only improves slightly (or not at all) and therefore never makes it into the first team.

iii) Absolutely and totally key to this is that the game (i.e. AI managers, scouts and your own scouts) stop looking at PA and CA. They MUST MUST MUST only be able to see exactly the same things that we see. At the moment it is far too easy to pick up players that are good youth prospects, because you know they have a high PA as the scout says so!

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yes and no. icon_wink.gif I still stand at my point that there is no PA in real life. but I know that game is smth different.

like you said; "You watch a player, notice that he has good finishing (or off the ball movement, or composure; it doesn't have to be the 'primary' stat for a position) and think that, given his age and mentality, that he may well be able to improve, so let's sign him up."

of course if wanted much improved reality fog of war is needed. and I agree everything you said on that. I would also add that we (AI as well) shouldn't be able to know player's personality to well. smth like (it looks like he might be quite ambitous). of course you would know far more deteils about well known players. that's why I said it would be more gambling system.

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For me, the problem here is not the CA/PA system, this is fine as is. I perceive two problems. One being the developmental progression of players, and the other being AI and scouting.

Firstly, on development, it seems that, providing there is room for improvement, all players seem to develop at pretty much the same rate. Rarely do we see a player suddenly see large improvements in his CA, or an 18 year old just stagnate and not achieve his potential. No two players will progress at the same rate, and this needs to be represented better in FM.

Secondly, on AI managers and scouts, it seems pretty clear that they see PA. Whilst I do not doubt that, with scout reports, more is looked at alongside PA, it seems to me that much of the basis of the report is generated around CA/PA. The entirity of the report needs to be based around how good the player currently is, how good his key positional attributes are, the level he is playing at, and how well he is playing. All to often I have seen scouts recommend players who are playing pretty badly, and in some situation, injured and unable to play.

As for managers, whilst it could be argued that the manager is acting upon a scout report, when you see an AI manager sign a young centre back with heading of 5 and tackilng or around 8, it certainly seems that the manager is looking at something more then how suited the player is for his position.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

yes and no. icon_wink.gif I still stand at my point that there is no PA in real life. but I know that game is smth different. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't understand this at all. There is a maximum ability level that we all have, it's just that there is no way of knowing it. Hence the FM version comes across as being somewhat arbitrary. It wouldn't matter how long I trained, or how hard I worked, I wouldn't be able to be as good at football as Christiano Ronaldo. The absolute maximum level of my ability is below his. Just look at Choppers example.

But I think I pretty much agree with everything else you say icon_smile.gif

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Very good ideas , i want to contribute mine.

If the player is from any of the British islands he should get -40 pts of CA/PA and let the engine chop the skills , this will add significantly to realism.

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bongo-bongo said it all. icon14.gif

sten super. well this metter we are talking about, maybe it's a difference in our characters and wiews. we don't have to prove each other nothing icon14.gif

just one thing, did I said you could become like ronaldo. if you look closly at what I wrote you'll see I said what are the factors for improvement. also I never said it's like all players should have set PA to 200. and I agree what you said that "There is a maximum ability level that we all have, it's just that there is no way of knowing it." you said that...well maybe god can icon_wink.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

yes and no. icon_wink.gif I still stand at my point that there is no PA in real life. but I know that game is smth different.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't really believe that surely? So everybody has the potential to be the best at football (or anything for that matter) in the world based on certain factors going their way?

There are factors involved like luck, coaching, enviroment, etc. but THE most important factor is the players PA. That is as good as they can possibly become, it exists IRL but is obviously almost impossible to be 100% accurate with - the researchers generally do a good job of estimating it.

If you removed PA from the game, not only would it be unrealistic, but it would basically remove any difficulty from the game. If every player could potentially be the best in the world you would simply need to hand-pick the best players from your youth team or the lower leagues and hire the best coaching staff you could. There would be no need for scouts, or signing world class players, you could just manufacture your own.

There would also be a massive advantage based on the clubs staff and training facilities - in fact that would probably determine which teams did the best.

There is a reason why real life football doesn't work this way and that's because certain people are better than other people at football. Not everyone can reach the same level based on coaching, enviroment, facilities and 'luck', otherwise every Man United and Arsenal youngster who didn't suffer any major injuries would eventually become a top player.

It just doesn't work that way.

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