SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10

[ProZone]

Thanks Prozone. (Bristol lad like me I see.. red or blue?)

Red... for Man Utd... originally from London! :o

[Veg]

As Prozone described:

Baseline - the number of slider notches/clicks is set to be equal to the number of attributes trained in a particular category. This provides each training category with what we'll call 1 training 'unit'. For outfield player's I believe we now have:

1 STR unit = 3 slider clicks

1 AER unit = 5 slider clicks

1 GK unit = 0 slider clicks

1 TAC unit = 5 slider clicks

1 BAL unit = 4 slider clicks

1 DEF unit = 3 slider clicks

1 ATT unit = 2 slider clicks

1 SHO unit = 3 slider clicks

1 SET unit = 5 slider clicks

After implementing your schedules and followed the prgression on the player attributes screen. I found out that reflexes are trained for Outfield players. I found out when I shorted on Aerobic category of the attributes history screen. Several of my outfield players had a rize in the reflexes attribute. The Aerobic category should there for have 6 notches as a starting point to keep the schedules balanced.

[DocSander]

After implementing your schedules and followed the prgression on the player attributes screen. I found out that reflexes are trained for Outfield players. I found out when I shorted on Aerobic category of the attributes history screen. Several of my outfield players had a rize in the reflexes attribute. The Aerobic category should there for have 6 notches as a starting point to keep the schedules balanced.

Be aware that a rising attributes is not proof of training effect. There are more non-trainable attributes that may change over time, f.e. due to in-match events...

So, while you did observe a trend of improving reflexes in your team, this does not automatically mean that this trend is training related!

[Indi75]

Red... for Man Utd... originally from London! :o

Heh, Red.. for Liverpool, originally from Stirling.

[rob7]

I have read through this post and am new to training schedules and making schedules, so sorry in advance. Right I have installed SFrasers training and know they are on the heavy side, due to miscalcuation, so to change this I need to click strengh and aerobic down by one unit (So say strengh is 24 clicks on the slider i need to click it back by 4 clicks? and aerobic is 20 i need to click back to 15 yes or no?) thats a outfield player are GK the same? also do I have to change both or one in each of the schedules eg Yth/1st/Vet? or just one, say i would like strengh more than aerobic etc? hope this makes sense and some one can help

[jim morrow]

1st question : Any news from Cleon ? At the begining of this topic in January, he said that he was waiting for a reply of a SI member specialist in training, and since this post, no news any update about him ?

2nd Q: Don't you think Natural Fitness attribute is linked to capacity to have a heavy load of training ? So having heavy fitness and strength to a player with only 8 in Natural Fitness will lead to a lot of injuries. We need to adapt load of training to Natural fitness attributes of each player.

3rd Q: We can know by Geniescout which attributes will increase for each player. So why trying to put for example heavy load for Tactics if player can only increase 1 or 2 points on only two tactical attributes ? In this case, heavy load will be too heavy for the possible gain and we lost some "space" to

increase load of training for other area of training.

About different arrow for training menu, I think that is showing only how the player is working in that area training. For example, you can have a heavy load in shooting but player have a red arrow. that's why this player is not interesting to train in this area...and it can be confirmed by Geniescout where

you will find that there is no gain possible in shooting potential attributes. So you can put the slider for shooting to minimal notches and with that, you gain some "space" to increase other training aera more interesting for the player. what do you think of that ?

[Indi75]

Edit: Wrong Thread.

[phnompenhandy]

2nd Q: Don't you think Natural Fitness attribute is linked to capacity to have a heavy load of training ? So having heavy fitness and strength to a player with only 8 in Natural Fitness will lead to a lot of injuries. We need to adapt load of training to Natural fitness attributes of each player.

3rd Q: We can know by Geniescout which attributes will increase for each player. So why trying to put for example heavy load for Tactics if player can only increase 1 or 2 points on only two tactical attributes ? In this case, heavy load will be too heavy for the possible gain and we lost some "space" to

increase load of training for other area of training.

About different arrow for training menu, I think that is showing only how the player is working in that area training. For example, you can have a heavy load in shooting but player have a red arrow. that's why this player is not interesting to train in this area...and it can be confirmed by Geniescout where

you will find that there is no gain possible in shooting potential attributes. So you can put the slider for shooting to minimal notches and with that, you gain some "space" to increase other training aera more interesting for the player. what do you think of that ?

Q2 - yes, natural fitness has a bearing on how much training a player can cope with.

Q2 - Genie - no mate. From what I can work out that max potential attribute rating in Genie applies to general training. You can go past the Genie max with redistribution of attribute points through specific training schedules.

[The Icepick]

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum and new to these training schedules, but I'd really like to implement them into my game. Only problem is that my laptop doesn't open the .tsh-file. Can anyone tell me how to fix this problem and use the schedules?

Thanks in advance!

[Indi75]

From the Training Screen click schedules > manage schedules > import

You need to put the .tsh into the schedules folder in the schedules folder within the FM folders of your Documents folders.

[The Icepick]

From the Training Screen click schedules > manage schedules > import

You need to put the .tsh into the schedules folder in the schedules folder within the FM folders of your Documents folders.

Awesome, works perfectly now! Thanks a lot!

[Akim]

3rd Q: We can know by Geniescout which attributes will increase for each player. So why trying to put for example heavy load for Tactics if player can only increase 1 or 2 points on only two tactical attributes ? In this case, heavy load will be too heavy for the possible gain and we lost some "space" to increase load of training for other area of training.

as long as you use general training schedules, the genie is right. but since most of us use custom schedules, the genie scout is wrong. i bought a 16y old with biggest difference between CA and PA, made a screen of him, made a screen of genies predictions, after the guy reached his PA i compared both and they arent even close to be the same

[jim morrow]

I said that because in my test, depending player, some training category are in heavy load but you can see after two months of training and regular match that the bar graph of the player in this category is very low....So for me, it make sense that the player don't want to be trained with this category and so I changed the heavy load to minimum and now I can increase load on other categories that he performs well....

My test is simple. After holiday, I put my players on the same training where each training sliders are on the same position. So they must received the same load of work for each category...After one month, and better two months, you can see on the player training graph, that each category graph is different. Some players has high graph on every training category. Some players have low graph on Tactical & shooting but high in ball control and defense etc. etc.

So I think, that with the help of the training graph, I can adjust for each player, the good load of each training aera depending on the "reply" of my player to training. For example, if graph in tactical are low, I can decrease load for tactical. One month later, if the graph is on the same level, I can lowered again the load. If the graph is lower than last month so I can think that I decreased too much, and so now I increase a little and see next month what is the result...

what do you think about this test ?

[Indi75]

Q2 - yes, natural fitness has a bearing on how much training a player can cope with.

Q2 - Genie - no mate. From what I can work out that max potential attribute rating in Genie applies to general training. You can go past the Genie max with redistribution of attribute points through specific training schedules.

This Natural fitness clearly has an effect on training, and Genie is based on simply maxing CA and the attributes increasing relative to the CA increase and as far as I can tell (I only use it in the final months of an FM's life) takes no training into account simply spreads attributes according to CA.

Awesome, works perfectly now! Thanks a lot!

Glad to help

[Kevinmatt]

Alot of injuries any suggestions in changing anything?

[phnompenhandy]

Alot of injuries any suggestions in changing anything?

Yes. I suggest you read the blinkin' thread

[Kevinmatt]

Yes. I suggest you read the blinkin' thread

I did read the thread, it's a wee bit confusing like with all the graph's etc that i don't much about when it comes to training schedules. whats with the frigging negative response,hormones?

[DocSander]

Son of a Gun:

SFraser made a slight miscalculation with the Strength and Aerobic training category: it appears there are actually only 3 Strength attributes that can be trained for outfield players in the Strength category (rather than 4); and there are only 5 Aerobic attributes that can be trained for outfield players in the Aerobic category (rather than 6).

SFraser will be releasing updated schedules at some point soon. In the meantime though you should reduce the Strength and Aerobic training for all outfield schedules. To do this, work out how many notches the schedules are currently using, then divide it by 4 (for Strength) and 6 (for Aerobic). Then reduce the slider notches by the number you've calculated.

This should reduce the number of injuries you get as the workload will be lighter.

Alot of injuries any suggestions in changing anything?

Hey Kevinmatt, nothing's wrong with our hormones I guess, but we're not your personal librarians...

No offense intended, but I would suggest some scrolling in the upward direction next time before posing your question... Oh yeah, and when upward scrolling does not come up with an answer, there's probably a previous page that does...

In the meantime I've quoted dfgrigg again, this time for your convenience. Hope this helps you out!

[Kevinmatt]

Hey Kevinmatt, nothing's wrong with our hormones I guess, but we're not your personal librarians...

No offense intended, but I would suggest some scrolling in the upward direction next time before posing your question... Oh yeah, and when upward scrolling does not come up with an answer, there's probably a previous page that does...

In the meantime I've quoted dfgrigg again, this time for your convenience. Hope this helps you out!

Thanks, i did read the thread, but i missed that post sorry guys, i take that cheek back also sorry my apology.

[themadsheep2001]

just finished reading this, my head literally hurts now, but it is cracking stuff well done guys. The current approach to traing in in the FM is lamentable, and kudos to you guys for working so hard to make it easier for others!

[Abaddon879]

Just a suggestion, but it might be an idea for SFraser to update the original post to reflect the required changes. That way it should help limit the amount of people asking the same question over and over.

[New Roosterman]

Ummm, you're doing it wrong lol. For a start, dirk kuyt isn't a veteran striker. He's first team. Read the instructions at the start of the thread, it tells you which players are used for which schedule. Have other players on the same schedule as these all had stats go down? Or did some go up? Did these players happen to get injured?

In relation to Kuyt I thought that might have been the case (on reflection). As I hadn't tried the schedules before I only put 2 players on them to try them out.

I'm trying them again so I'll see how I go this time. I'll put the ffirst trial down as user error. :o

[jim morrow]

I said that because in my test, depending player, some training category are in heavy load but you can see after two months of training and regular match that the bar graph of the player in this category is very low....So for me, it make sense that the player don't want to be trained with this category and so I changed the heavy load to minimum and now I can increase load on other categories that he performs well....

My test is simple. After holiday, I put my players on the same training where each training sliders are on the same position. So they must received the same load of work for each category...After one month, and better two months, you can see on the player training graph, that each category graph is different. Some players has high graph on every training category. Some players have low graph on Tactical & shooting but high in ball control and defense etc. etc.

So I think, that with the help of the training graph, I can adjust for each player, the good load of each training aera depending on the "reply" of my player to training. For example, if graph in tactical are low, I can decrease load for tactical. One month later, if the graph is on the same level, I can lowered again the load. If the graph is lower than last month so I can think that I decreased too much, and so now I increase a little and see next month what is the result...

what do you think about this test ?

Any comment on my training test ??

[meyer]

Any comment on my training test ??

i have been using the graph as a barometer of the players preference to training methods.

ryan babel graph is usually low and he doesnt like heavy schedules. (low determination).

so i made a schedule for him that was lower in intensity and i started to an increase in his stats. i also focused on the areas he excelled in.

players who are injury prone will tend to have lower bars in the graph so i will decrease the intensity and it keeps them somewhat injury free.

[milokaw]

Hi SFraser,

I have been testing your schedule for 3 season now and i see big improvement on all player. for CF schedule, i have Dzeko(1st CF) and Necid(Dev CF) reach full potential and with the 1st CM schedule, it turned Marek Hamsik close to be a Box2Box Midfielder which is ideal for my tactic(he even good to be train for ST position. The others schedules see good improvement too and i have no issue with them. Theres injuries here and there, but thats normal in real life.

I have a question about the CB training,

So far i hardly seen much improvent on Jumping attribute, both for Dev and 1st team schedule,

for 1st team CB schedule, i've already decrease Ball Control by 5 and Shooting by 3 and increase Tactics by 5 and Defending by 3 just for your info. The others important attiribute is increasing nicely but not jumping.

Two example:

Jordan Spence, my Limited Defender stopper

Otamendi, my CB Cover, i'm sure his heading will improve, but i am not sure about jumping.

Can you suggest how i go from here to change the schedule so that i can get improvement for Jumping attribute? or is this normal for shorter height CB?

Many thanks

[jim morrow]

i have been using the graph as a barometer of the players preference to training methods.

Right Meyer, but Graph is not only preference to training but "REAL CAPACITY" for training this aera...So a player who have low graph on a specific category can never be train on it even he has a heavy load on this aera..

That's why for me, training by position on the field is not working as good as individual training as each player is different from other one.

And training, as recommended by Vaughan, must be lowered during all the season to compensate jadedness and match condition. So at the end of the season, training must be very light compare to begin of season...If you stay with same training during all the season, don't be surprise if player begin to be wounded one by one after first season.

[SFraser]

I have a question about the CB training,

So far i hardly seen much improvent on Jumping attribute, both for Dev and 1st team schedule,

for 1st team CB schedule, i've already decrease Ball Control by 5 and Shooting by 3 and increase Tactics by 5 and Defending by 3 just for your info. The others important attiribute is increasing nicely but not jumping.

Jumping is in the Aerobic Category. To improve Jumping in players you need to choose or design a schedule that has a large bias in favour of Aerobic.

Aerobic has alot of attributes in the Category and is one of the biggest Categories overall. This means your Aerobic will have to be very high and the rest of your Categories will have to be very low to get the desired scale of difference.

If your Aerobic is at notch 15 and your Defending is at notch 15 you will doing 3x each Aerobic Attribute for 5x each Defending Attribute. This is a huge Training bias in favour of Defending, and it does not account for Age which will only increase the bias in favour of defending.

To get equal Training between Aerobic and Defending each notch of Defending training must be multiplied by just under 2 for Aerobic, and your players must be young. To get a bias in favour of Aerobic you are looking to multiply each Defending notch by 3 to 4 for Aerobic, and your players must be young. If they are between 22-26 then it becomes 4-5x Aerobic notches for each Defending notch.

If we take the lower end of the scale to try and avoid injuries at the risk of inferior training results, then your young players might be on Defending Notch 6. This means Aerobic must be on notch 15 to see a small bias in favour of Aerobic. If Strength is on notch 9 then this slight bias will be spread between Aerobic and Strength.

I would suggest you look for Prozones explanation of FOCUS in this thread, and design a schedule with AEROBIC FOCUS +1 or 2 minimum for young players compared to all other Categories. FOCUS +3 or even +4 would be ideal, but with Aerobic you quickly run into high injury risk zones.

[phnompenhandy]

Presumably the attributes within a category do not change at a uniform rate. For example, in Attacking, I would expect Passing to deteriorate faster than Creativity. With the Aerobic category, I would imaging Agility and Balance would increase more with appropriate training than Jumping. Why? Because surely Jumping is heavily dependent on the player's height, and once he stops growing, the Jumping attribute should stagnate or at least increase by not more than one point. Heading could improve massively (Hi Rooney), but not Jumping.

Am I on the right track with these assumptions, and is there any data to demonstrate the different rates of increase/decrease of attributes within a category?

[SFraser]

Presumably the attributes within a category do not change at a uniform rate. For example, in Attacking, I would expect Passing to deteriorate faster than Creativity. With the Aerobic category, I would imaging Agility and Balance would increase more with appropriate training than Jumping. Why? Because surely Jumping is heavily dependent on the player's height, and once he stops growing, the Jumping attribute should stagnate or at least increase by not more than one point. Heading could improve massively (Hi Rooney), but not Jumping.

Am I on the right track with these assumptions, and is there any data to demonstrate the different rates of increase/decrease of attributes within a category?

You are almost on the exact precise track here.

What changes is the rate at which attributes in each of the 3 Profile Panels increase or decrease.

Each Category often contains attributes from different panels, mental-technical-physical. These three groups of attributes increase and decrease at different rates according to Age.

Thus Passing increases at a different rate according to Age than Creativity. Passing is a Technical Attribute whereas Creativity is a Mental Attribute. Technical Attributes reach peak increase levels around age 28, Mental Attributes reach peak increase levels much later. Both peak levels of increase are the same, but when Mental reaches its peak, Technical Attributes will be declining.

So in young players Passing will go up faster than Creativity. In older players Creativity will go up faster than Passing. Both attributes are in the exact same Category and it is not possibly to specifically train one more than the other. What you can do however is train the Category at a certain age. If you want to favour Passing, train Attacking at a young age. If you want to favour Creativity, train Attacking at an older age.

It is absolutely key to understand that the Three Attribute Panels in the Profile Screen are what changes in rate of increase/decrease with age. These are the ones that matter, this is where to look for information. Physical peaks earliest, then Technical, then Mental. They all peak at the same rate of increase, but they peak at different times and so they increase or decline more rapidly at different ages.

Take the Strength Category as an example. Strength, Stamina, Workrate. Workrate is a Mental Panel attribute, the other two are Physical Panel attributes. Workrate will increase faster than the other two when a player gets beyond 24-26. Before that Age it will increase slower than the other two. During a particular season you will see Workrate and the other two attributes improving at the same rate, as Mental Attributes improve their increase rate and physical attributes get worse at increasing, so both panels meet up, then one moves away from the other in terms of increase rate.

Three graphs with the same start, peak and end levels but reaching that peak at different ages. Three different curves starting and finishing at the same point with the same peak level, but that peak level comes at different ages. That also means that the pattern of improvement and decline is different.

I know Prozone is good at graphs. Are you around and able to produce something that looks like what I mean here? My paints skills are legendary in their failure.

[jim morrow]

And the better, it's that attributes increase/decrease change also with position on the field for each player !!!!

[SFraser]

And the better, it's that attributes increase/decrease change also with position on the field for each player !!!!

That doesn't seem to have the expected effect in Training. It is a complicated business but so far as I can tell right now it has a negligable impact on Training.

[polskaGOLA]

I am having trouble deciding which players should be on CF schedules and which on Striker schedules

Any help? Like what group off attributes should I be looking at?

[meyer]

Right Meyer, but Graph is not only preference to training but "REAL CAPACITY" for training this aera...So a player who have low graph on a specific category can never be train on it even he has a heavy load on this aera..

That's why for me, training by position on the field is not working as good as individual training as each player is different from other one.

And training, as recommended by Vaughan, must be lowered during all the season to compensate jadedness and match condition. So at the end of the season, training must be very light compare to begin of season...If you stay with same training during all the season, don't be surprise if player begin to be wounded one by one after first season.

i agree, each player has to be trained as an individual based on there age, injury proneness and attitude. some players can be pushed hard others cant and i would think that is how it would work in the real world.

i have more success with training but it is time comsuming, but the rewards are worth it

[polskaGOLA]

I am having trouble deciding which players should be on CF schedules and which on Striker schedules

Any help? Like what group off attributes should I be looking at?

In addition to this,

What are the injury schedules for? I mean, During the injury or is it injury recovery?

Also what would you consider a long term injury and what a short term?

[CElliott]

I thought I should mention one observation I noticed in my last save (10.2) using these training scedules with a lower league team.

Roughly 2/3 my team were on P/T contracts and schedules (I created these based on the full time ones but scaled down for the available hours) but the problem I noticed affected the Full Time players too.

These demanding schedules meant that over half my team were 'unhappy with high workload' or 'unhappy with high level of fitness training'. Morale was not a problem as we had an excellent season and only lost about 5 games, finishing 1st in the BSN league.

We did have a fair few injuries but only a couple of long terms ones, this wasn't the problem.

After running these schedules for approx 6 months I noticed a pattern in some of the unhappy player's training performance stats. Discounting players who had been injured as they would obviously show less improvement, I noticed that players who were unhappy with there training schedules had a small but constant reduction in their training performance graph. These were first team players who maintained Good or higher morale through the teams successes but their 'performance' or 'output' or however else you would describe the graph on bottom left of the screen that shows results for each month, showed a slow but noticable decline, every month for approx 6 months.

So I think there is more to the 'unhappy with workload' than just morale. I think they become fed up with the effort required and start losing focus.

I've just started a new 10.3 save with another BSN team using slightly reduced training schedules - the workload maximum is High in most cases (top of Medium for some) but I'm still using SFraser's theory, just a few less 'clicks'. So far after the first month about 1/4 are moaning about the workload, mainly the youngsters.

I'll keep an eye on their monthly performance and see if the same thing occurs. I actually hope I'm wrong, because if I'm not it means going back to individual training schedules for every player and thats a real pain.

I should also stress that this may only be a symptom of LL clubs that have pitiful training facilities and absolute minimal staff.

[polskaGOLA]

So, I gave a "blank" player a contract form my youth team, his starting CA is 1, and I set his PA to 150.

I doubt he will reach his PA (although he is 15, lots of time) but it will be a great test to see how well the schedules are, and how much he will improve with them.

[phnompenhandy]

So, I gave a "blank" player a contract form my youth team, his starting CA is 1, and I set his PA to 150.

I doubt he will reach his PA (although he is 15, lots of time) but it will be a great test to see how well the schedules are, and how much he will improve with them.

I've done something like this - created a squad of very young players with very low Ca and high PA, and put them all on SFraser's schedules. However, with such an experiment, one is caught in a double-whammy. As well as training, the youngster needs match experience at the appropriate level.

Now, if you manage a high-rep team like Man Utd, how long will you wait before blooding your kid in the first team? I, on the other hand, am managing a club in the 10th tier, so it's no problem giving regular first team experience to 15 and 16 year old lads, but the level of competition is so low that they won't develop much. But the time I get enough promotions to be really competitive, they'll be well past their youth!

I'd also like clarification on CF/ST. I'm going for ST for targetmen and CF for other kinds of forwards, but I'm not sure that's right.

[malikoi]

My players are getting really fatigued using these training schedules, anything I can do to combat this?

Edit: Do you think it's because I had 7 games in December? I reckon it could be, but I have only just noticed.

[New Roosterman]

My players are getting really fatigued using these training schedules, anything I can do to combat this?

Edit: Do you think it's because I had 7 games in December? I reckon it could be, but I have only just noticed.

Best way to combat fatigue is to give the players a few days rest every couple of months or so. I have a largish squad so when I play the second stringers in a weaker match (say havibngf had a mid-week cup game) I select key players and give them 2-3 rest from training. Seems to freshen them up ok.

[phnompenhandy]

Especially during that intensive Christmas period - give them 2 weeks off training.

[jim morrow]

It make non sense to have same training during month with 7 games than during month with only 3 or 4 games !!!!

You need to adjust general load or Strength training load with condition of each player. The best is to have your 11 starting players with 100% condition or nearest before beginning a match. And to do that for each player, the adjustment is different. Some, you will need to decrease the slider from some notch. for another one, one click decrease will be enough. So Adjust the load of training in link with the condition of the player. If player reach 100% condition before a match, your load is fine perhaps you can try to increase a little and see next match, if it's again 100% condition. If the player is around 94 or 95, is that your training load is too high for the player.

[Filke]

my players are every match around 94-95 i was thinking that is ok. but...

[jim morrow]

my players are every match around 94-95 i was thinking that is ok. but...

If you have match every 3 days, I think it can be normal if you have 94/95% of condition. But if you have 1 match by week, 95% is not okay for your team. Difference between a player starting with 100% condition and player with 95% can be big during match and not good for Jadedness of the player !!!!

[Indi75]

I always rest first team players for 1 day after a game if that helps. I also rest them during international week - they come back about 80% anyway.

[jim morrow]

I always rest first team players for 1 day after a game if that helps. I also rest them during international week - they come back about 80% anyway.

I'm note sure that it's very good for your player to rest 1 day like you do, for condition perhaps and for training surely. It sounds right in Real Life, but in FM2010, i'm not sure that it's good.

It's like in december, if players were needed to be in vacation, FM2010 will automatically send them in holiday like it did after end of season.

It's only a Football simulation with rules different from Real Life

[crusader12]

what schedule do i use for a young winger (inside forward) as WF id not very high for attacking and shooting?

[Indi75]

I'm note sure that it's very good for your player to rest 1 day like you do, for condition perhaps and for training surely. It sounds right in Real Life, but in FM2010, i'm not sure that it's good.

It's like in december, if players were needed to be in vacation, FM2010 will automatically send them in holiday like it did after end of season.

It's only a Football simulation with rules different from Real Life

I ran some test at end of FM2009 with FMRTE having lost in the CL final 4 years running.

Jaded, and it showed.

Following season with same first eleven I gave them rest days as per comment earlier and stormed to victory in CL final with jadedness down about 30% overall.

I've stuck by the rest days ever since.

[phnompenhandy]

Good tip Indi.

[polskaGOLA]

How often should I rest players? Because I never do.

[phnompenhandy]

How often should I rest players? Because I never do.

Normally there's no need. Only if they report that they're getting 'jaded'/'in need of a rest'. But if you have a schedule of 3 games a week it makes sense to.