SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10

[Sergey S.]

On a side note, does anyone really know the amount of CA that can be gained through training (or even if it can at all?!). I have read on here that it is only a very small gain (as opposed to match experience CA gain) but would it be worth toning down some of the schedules to definately avoid injuries and excessive tiring (especially in congested times or if you have a smaller squad).

For example the developing CF schedule has the following focus:

Str - 4

Aer - 4

Tac - 3

BC - 3

Def - 2

Att - 3

Sho - 4

SP - 0

In theory could this be halved and still produce the same results?

Catafan did a study on FM09 where among other things he found increased training levels did affect stat increases, just not as much as one expected.

Here's a graph he provided (source: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=111311):

[Comedybegs]

Catafan did a study on FM09 where among other things he found increased training levels did affect stat increases, just not as much as one expected.

Here's a graph he provided (source: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=111311):

Therefore provided it didnt drop too low, the difference in additional CA from training alone would be minimal, and if it meant players were fresher, played better, got injured less and possibly had better morale it would probably be worth it in certain circumstances.

It could be worth considering if you have a young Ledley King or James Vaughan!

[Sergey S.]

Therefore provided it didnt drop too low, the difference in additional CA from training alone would be minimal, and if it meant players were fresher, played better, got injured less and possibly had better morale it would probably be worth it in certain circumstances.

It could be worth considering if you have a young Ledley King or James Vaughan!

You're probably right, but remember that his test was done with FM09 and on 18 year olds with 20 Professionalism, Ambition and Work Rate. It's possible that this works differently in FM10.3, or that older or less Mentally gifted players need higher levels of training to improve.

[polskaGOLA]

Quick question because I have a talented DC with low bravery.

I understand that Bravery is not affected by training, as it is not 'assigned' to any catagory. So how do I go about with raising Bravery?

Via Tutoring I would assume? If so, should I look for a player with high Bravery to tutor my player? And if I do, by how much points do you think I could get the attribute up by? (the player currently has a bravery of 5) Also, is there any other means of raising the attribute?

[phnompenhandy]

Dutcy, it was just asked and answered a few posts above. Again.

polska - bravery cant be trained or tutored and hardly changes. It might be one of those attributes that can be improved slightly by match experience, eg instructing him to go in for hard tackles, but I'm just guessing.

Comedybegs - you're kind of missing the point here; the key purpose of the training schedules is to redistribute the CA increases. With lower intensity training it will take longer for the CA gains to go to the 'right' attributes for the position.

[polskaGOLA]

Meh. So that means my player is practicaly useless as a DC or DM with such low Bravery, even though he has huge Heading/Tackling/Marking/Concentration/Anticipation/Positioning/Work Rate/Teamwork

Well I signed him for 40K, and I think I can atleast make 2-3 Million selling him, so no big deal.

[phnompenhandy]

Meh. So that means my player is practicaly useless as a DC or DM with such low Bravery, even though he has huge Heading/Tackling/Marking/Concentration/Anticipation/Positioning/Work Rate/Teamwork

Well I signed him for 40K, and I think I can atleast make 2-3 Million selling him, so no big deal.

Well it's all relative. He'd be great for me in the lower leagues, maybe not for Barcelona. For me, the lower down you go the more a player can get away with one or two weaknesses - eg I have 40 year old midfielders with no pace. But at the highest levels one weakness can be fatal.

[Babaginoosh]

I noticed something about the youth schedules and its impact. It turns out that most of the youths with a personality of 'sporting' or 'balanced' and lower are usually unhappy with the workload. Has anyone else noticed this or has this already been mentioned.

This is also happening with my first team players but not at the rate of the youth.

[phnompenhandy]

I noticed something about the youth schedules and its impact. It turns out that most of the youths with a personality of 'sporting' or 'balanced' and lower are usually unhappy with the workload. Has anyone else noticed this or has this already been mentioned.

This is also happening with my first team players but not at the rate of the youth.

SFraser has covered 'unhappy with workload' before. Basically, you can ignore it. Providing you keep their morale up in other areas, they'll live with it. It's only when they're losing morale due to losing or your man-management in other areas, that training will contribute to their unhappiness.

[ZdlR]

Does anyone know what governs the quality of kids that are inducted into the youth academy each summer? It doesn't make logical sense for the quality of the youth facilities to dictate it - buildings don't choose players.

It should depend on the staff you have at the club. Perhaps the scouts' with a decent "working with youths" stat. However, and this might just be coincidence, but in my last intake at Newcastle I had only one player who is really worth spending any time on developing - a striker. If you look at Peter Beardsley's stats, he has excellent "working with youths", "judging player ability" and "judging player potential" and is also primarily a shooting coach.

It would be interesting to know because that can give you a really big advantage in the future - either financially by selling the player for an extortionate fee, or by training him up to first-team standard. I rarely seem to get anyone notable come through the ranks.

[phnompenhandy]

Does anyone know what governs the quality of kids that are inducted into the youth academy each summer? It doesn't make logical sense for the quality of the youth facilities to dictate it - buildings don't choose players.

It should depend on the staff you have at the club. Perhaps the scouts' with a decent "working with youths" stat. However, and this might just be coincidence, but in my last intake at Newcastle I had only one player who is really worth spending any time on developing - a striker. If you look at Peter Beardsley's stats, he has excellent "working with youths", "judging player ability" and "judging player potential" and is also primarily a shooting coach.

It would be interesting to know because that can give you a really big advantage in the future - either financially by selling the player for an extortionate fee, or by training him up to first-team standard. I rarely seem to get anyone notable come through the ranks.

I hear what you're saying, Rafa.

Seriously, in a sense the building CAN choose players; you get media items saying so-and-so chose to sign for your club because of the training facilities. It WOULD be a nice touch if they were attracted by a coach too.

The simple answer to your question is mainly club reputation, but presumably within the remit of the 50-mile rule, if in England. A kid growing up in Bury is more likely to emerge from Man U's academy than Bury FC, or even Bolton. However, even the best of clubs will produce very few wonderkids. I wasn't being entirely flippant in referring to the example of Liverpool.

[Kugle]

Thanks going to try it out but...

Whats with the low attack training om AM and CM?

[phnompenhandy]

Ye gods, Kugle, READ the posts on THIS page!!!!

[zamorano2]

Just a simple question:

can you explain cb,am,fb.....the complete names of the traning's role?

[Abaddon879]

CB - Centre Back (otherwise known as DC in-game)

AM - Attacking Midfielder

FB - Full Back

[zamorano2]

CB - Centre Back (otherwise known as DC in-game)

AM - Attacking Midfielder

FB - Full Back

Thank you for the quick answer!

so resuming

gk goalkeeper

fb full back

cb centre back or DC

am attacking midfielder

wf winger?

st stiker

cf ?? maybe central forward?

cm central midfielder

[ProZone]

WF = Wing Forward (AMR/L)

CF = Centre Forward (FC)

[polskaGOLA]

CF - Center Forward (while we are on the topic, how would you know which players go here, and which go on the Striker schedule?)

WF - Wide Fielder I think. (And on this topic too, is this just for Wingers, or for ML/MR's?)

Well it's all relative. He'd be great for me in the lower leagues, maybe not for Barcelona. For me, the lower down you go the more a player can get away with one or two weaknesses - eg I have 40 year old midfielders with no pace. But at the highest levels one weakness can be fatal.

I am playing at Anderlecht, first season.

Someone said to me that Bravery is extremely important, and with a bravery that low, he would never go into tackles/challenge players.

[Abaddon879]

A quick look down the first page would have given you all the information you need...

My apologies guys for not explaining the different schedules.

Please keep in mind that they cannot ensure you have made the right choice for your player, they can only attempt to mould players into a certain shape. If you want your young Centreback to improve his Technical ability and Passing skills then the Developing CB schedule is not for him as it trains players intensively in Strength, Aerobic, Tactics and Defending. Keep in mind the further points that A: these are based on the number of attributes per category and not on individual categories B: they are based on my choice of shape for a position C: some may not be very well balanced D: large increases come from playing regularly when you have more CA gain, schedules only shape players according to the quality of your Training facilities and Coaches.

GK Schedules:- Obviously for Goalkeepers. I think the Strength training for these schedules may be slightly off so for each GK Schedule knock Strength down by 4 notches and Ball Control down by 2 notches and increase either Aerobic or Tactics by 6 notches, if you are unhappy with the results.

CB Schedules:- For Central Defenders or anyone you wish to train intensively in Strength, Aerobic, Tactics and Defending. The Developing Schedule should see the greatest improvement in defending attributes. The 1st Choice Schedule should see small changes and may be unbalanced. If you are unhappy with the 1st Choice Schedule decrease Ball Control by 5 and Shooting by 3 then increase Tactics by 5 and Defending by 3.

FB Schedules:- For Defensive Wide Players. This Schedule is Aerobic Intensive and aims to produce well rounded speedy wide players. Again these Schedules may be unbalanced so if you are unhappy with the results reduce Ball Control by 5 and Shooting by 3 and increase Tactics by 5 and Defending by 3 for all Schedules.

CM Schedules:- Central Midfielder Schedules based on Physical Attributes and Tactics, i.e. quite defensively minded for the central position. The Developing Schedule is based on Physical Attributes first with all others getting a smaller equal share. The 1st Choice and Veteran Schedules are based on Strength and Tactics. 1st Choice is the Schedule Mascherano was on in the screenshot and seems quite balanced to me, although you can easilly do several things with it. Reducing Ball Control by 5 notches and increasing Defending by 3 and Attacking by 2 should produce a Schedule more like one for a DM.

AM Schedules:- Perhaps one of the more controversial sets of Schedules. These Schedules essentially attempt to mould general purpose Creative Attacking players and follow the tendency for Creative Attacking players to often start wide as Wingers and move infield as they Age. Think of the kind of players Arsenal use, or players like Modric or Kaka. True Attacking Central Midfielders, say players like Gerrard and Aquilani may be better off on the CF schedules or CM schedules.

WF Schedules:- Wing Forward or in todays money Inside Forward. This is a Physically Intensive Wide Striker Schedule and moulds players for whom a physical, direct wide game is their forte. Ronaldo, Nani, Valencia, and even some actual Strikers that combine wideplay roles into their forward game such as Agbonlahor etc. These Schedules will not develop clever players, they will develop direct, Technically skilled, Powerful wide forward players.

CF Schedules:- Centre Forward Schedules but not the old English Centre Forward, rather instead the modern day version of a powerful, clever, dangerous deep lying player. This Schedule is also designed for the modern Targetman, Peter Crouch for example that combines Strength with Technical Ability, Intelligence and a dangerous Finish. These guys are not so much playmakers as they are the Intelligent Central version of the Inside Forward. Tevez, Rooney, Crouch, Ibrahimovic, Dzeko.

ST Schedules:- A pure Striker schedule based on Acceleration, Pace, Agility, Ball Control, Intelligence and Finishing ability. This is for the Torres, Eto'o, Defoe of this world. Players that terrify defences by the sheer thought of them getting the ball under control, let alone their goal tally. These Schedules could be a good idea to place your Developed WF on once they have achieved excellent direct qualities. Think the development of Cristiano Ronaldo versus Ryan Giggs. Both started as rather decision making lacking fullback destroying Wingers whereas one developed into a Creative AM while the other developed into perhaps the most fearsome Striker on the planet.

[phnompenhandy]

CF - Center Forward (while we are on the topic, how would you know which players go here, and which go on the Striker schedule?)

Not sure. I put my target men on STR and other forwards on Cf, following the old Fm logic of ST/FC.

I am playing at Anderlecht, first season.

Someone said to me that Bravery is extremely important, and with a bravery that low, he would never go into tackles/challenge players.

That's right. In my lower league side I have 2 DC limited defender stoppers and a quicker 3rd DC who sweeps up (cover) who can't tackle. It works against lower league forwards, but at a higher level could be fatal.

[Sergey S.]

Not sure. I put my target men on STR and other forwards on Cf, following the old Fm logic of ST/FC.

Really? I always assumed it was the other way around since a Center Forward is normally used to hold the ball and distribute it in advanced areas (what you would expect a Target Man to do) while non-creative Strikers are expected to run onto the ball and score with it.

Either way, I just put all my CFs and STs on the Striker training schedule as I want their Shooting/Attacking attributes to be as high as possible.

[polskaGOLA]

Belgium top division is probably to much for defenders with no bravery.

Atleast I can make quite a good profit from him.

[SFraser]

You can use players with no bravery in a good covering role. Significantly poor bravery is a handicap though.

As for the Positions used in my Schedules, they are all designed for a club like Manchester United where the CF is expected to not only be strong but intelligent and play a key link-up role in the team.

For the lower leagues a schedule like Wing Forward that aims to produce physically powerful, direct players might be more suited to your Centre Forwards.

The problem here is that I cannot create all types of ideal schedules for all users in all contexts. I build schedules for my side and release them. Hopefully the information in this thread regarding how to design schedules is enough for some people to expand the number and type of schedules, but these "additional schedules" are not very forth coming.

I had hoped that providing enough detail would enable people to design their own schedules and produce them here in this thread for others to download. I am not sure why, but this ambition for a "schedule library" has seriously failed.

[ProZone]

I had hoped that providing enough detail would enable people to design their own schedules and produce them here in this thread for others to download. I am not sure why, but this ambition for a "schedule library" has seriously failed.

DocSander and I are desperately waiting for your feedback on our joint 'project' which is designed to facilitate the training library idea. If you are really serious about it then let's get together and finish it off.

[SFraser]

DocSander and I are desperately waiting for your feedback on our joint 'project' which is designed to facilitate the training library idea. If you are really serious about it then let's get together and finish it off.

Sorry about that, I am looking into it now.

[Slapper]

If this schedule is yielding such great results, I'm guessing you don't loan out youngsters for first team football? Assume I, like you, am using a top 4 club with great facilities and coaches. Is it worth while to send players to be valuable first team players in the Championship? In the Premier League?

[Abaddon879]

I still send out youngsters for first-team football as it is an invaluable part of their progression. There is only so much you can learn through training. Certain attributes cannot be increased by training, and therefore must be done tyhrough either tutoring or match experience.

There was also a theory that the reputation of the league and the teams you are playing have an impact on the players development but I have also read recently that this theory has been overturned and it is down to the club he is playing for more than league or opposition. This would have made more sense as even league 1 football would be better than reserve and u18 matches.

[Jenko_EFC]

SFraser, I often use your schedules but only the test ones for guidelines as I like to make my own (I often fail haha) but how sure are you your theory of 1 notch per attribute isn't flawed?

[phnompenhandy]

If this schedule is yielding such great results, I'm guessing you don't loan out youngsters for first team football? Assume I, like you, am using a top 4 club with great facilities and coaches. Is it worth while to send players to be valuable first team players in the Championship? In the Premier League?

Training mostly redistributes CA gains; first team experience is the primary way to get those gains. The higher the rep of the club and league, the more the CA gains - providing the player is getting decent ratings.

Where possible, I follow a general pattern like this - have him out on loan playing first team football for one third of the season.

Have him at home for two thirds - one part being tutored whilst in the reserves, and the other part on the bench of the first team, getting a few low-pressure run-outs.

You can cycle the youngsters through these three stages in a season.

[Comedybegs]

Comedybegs - you're kind of missing the point here; the key purpose of the training schedules is to redistribute the CA increases. With lower intensity training it will take longer for the CA gains to go to the 'right' attributes for the position.

Ok im with you know, so therefore the higher the intensity = the quicker CA redistributes.

Therefore lowering the schedules but keeping the same ratios would only reduce the amount of time it takes to distribute the CA.

[thfc53]

am i the only dunce who cant work out where to put the file. Ive never come accross a .tsh file before you see... (excuses )

[dekilos]

in My documents ,then Sport Interactive,Football Manager 2010, then copy the file in folder "schedules"(make it if you don't have it).

[Somerandomguy]

Absolutely brilliant training schedule, been using for a couple of months (in game) and players are already starting to show increases in their stats.

Screenshot: http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm62/PhilP1208/carratrainingincrease.jpg

[thfc53]

Cheers dekilos. What regime would you put a player on when lacking match fitness? Obviously he needs match time, but i cant afford to play him ahead of a player whose in superb condition when im involved in a title battle and cups and so on....

[SFraser]

SFraser, I often use your schedules but only the test ones for guidelines as I like to make my own (I often fail haha) but how sure are you your theory of 1 notch per attribute isn't flawed?

It is neither completely accurate not entireally flawed. 1 notch per attribute is only a small part of the overall training regime here, and it is the approach to setting sliders that gives the most accurate level of control over balancing Categories.

You cannot accurately choose specific attributes, nor can you accurately control whether attributes within a category receive the same amount of Training, i.e. one notch. However what does happen is that by using 1 notch per attribute you make sure you are accounting for attribute growth and not category growth, and then by exploiting Age related development trends you can pick and choose when and where to apply increased/decreased training ratios for the Categories containing specific attributes.

For example in a 20 year old player training the Strength Category at notch 3, the Stamina and Strength attributes will take more than their equal share of training while Workrate takes less than its equal share. In a 30 year old player the converse is true.

Thus 1 notch per attribute is simply a basic standard for keeping Categories reasonably balanced when you come to design a schedule. You then take into account the other factors that influence Training and take into account your desires for your player and alter the schedule accordingly.

[rolo]

Does WF mean winger? can't find a winger option.

[dekilos]

thfc53 I think it is not important but I'm not sure,you can set players with lack of match practice available for reserve squad ,make sure that reserve squad have friendly matches, so they will be match fit.

[coloradogkb]

DocSander and I are desperately waiting for your feedback on our joint 'project' which is designed to facilitate the training library idea. If you are really serious about it then let's get together and finish it off.

Any word on this? I'm excited to see what you guys come up with.

[phnompenhandy]

I read some post of this thread and i dont understand anything.I dont have time to read all of the post so can somebody enlighten me how do i make my training schedules! For exp the 32 years old striker Sfrazer was talking about will gain much more teamwork than acceleration so i need to put aerobic to max and tactics to 1 or?

If you don't understand anything and are too lazy to read, just download his schedules and assign your players to it.

[kingmike666]

I realise I'm a little slow off the mark on this thread, but as I haven't been around for a long time this is a new read to me.

Have to say I find it really interesting, and certainly opened my eyes to a new approach to training as I have always followed the Line Theory on this one.

I shall have a go at creating my own training based no this, as I think we all look for something different in our players depending on what type of tactics we employ. Will also download the edited version for comparisons and ideas. Certainly seems like people have had a lot of success with this, and though I ahven't had time to read all 5 pages there seem to be less injury worries with the modified version, am I right?

Also one quick question that I'm not sure if it has been answered, but would it seem that learning a PPM or new position influence the rate at which CA increases as this is said to take up around 10% of the workload?

Answers to those two things would be much appreciated, but excellent post SFraser, really enjoyed reading it.

[ramie]

For those after the tweaked schedules, I have uploaded the set I made changes to. They can be downloaded from here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?4dxhmftnl0m

These are the ones I am using, and have had the changes I listed above made to them.

I hope they help those of you who weren't sure what changes to make.

is this the final version?

[uae4life]

yes can we have the final version please?

[GADONGTA]

Also one quick question that I'm not sure if it has been answered, but would it seem that learning a PPM or new position influence the rate at which CA increases as this is said to take up around 10% of the workload?

Answers to those two things would be much appreciated, but excellent post SFraser, really enjoyed reading it.

With the line theory, I have always added 2 notches more for those who train new position (10%) and 4 notches for those who train PPm (20%) as the graphs display exactly the same levels. maybe that is something we could try to keep the focus proportion to be the same. Just keep in mind the workload weighing between each notch of the 3 training areas is Physical:Technical:Set Pices=4:10:25.

[DirtyACE]

is this the final version?

yes can we have the final version please?

The link that Abaddon879 has in his post #437 are the updated schedules that SFraser released. They have been tweaked according to SFraser's recommendations. So to answer your questions, this is the updated (latest) version of the original schedules. I'm not sure if they're the final version though as more findings may come to the light eventually, but for now these are the most up to date schedules.

[ProZone]

I was using the training module last night and thought I'd post about an observation I made.

If you create a new schedule, set one category slider to notch 4 and another to notch 1, and then drag the Overall Workload slider to the right you will notice that the slider set to 4 will move a further 4 notches before the slider set to 1 moves by an additional notch. This is true for all the category sliders.

I think this is very interesting because this supports the category Unit assumption. The mechanics of Overall Workload, as observable to the user, works to increase the training schedule by the set category ratios.

This may be a known feature, I'd be surprised if SFraser hadn't noticed this when developing this approach to schedule design, but I haven't ever seen it noted in this forum. It's another reason for me at least to feel confident in using this approach and these schedules.

[leaderoftheshed]

I have a youngster who came through my academy and was labelled one of the best players of his generation. I put him on the youth and then development training schedules when he reached 17 but his stats have not moved at all in over a year. the only thing that has gone up a bit is determination through mentoring (which is now at 18).

Other youngsters seem to be progressing fine.

Does anyone have a theory on what is going wrong with my guy?

As i said he has high determination, his character is determined, high work rate, happy with his training, high potential from my scouts and no problems with work ethic identified by my scouts. He has been making the odd appearance for the 1st team from the bench and is a regular for the reserves. he's certainly getting as much if not more 1st team expsure than other youngsters who seem to be progressing well even though my scouts suggest their pa is nowhere near as high as my man.

Any ideas?

[Indi75]

is this the final version?

yes can we have the final version please?

The link that Abaddon879 has in his post #437 are the updated schedules that SFraser released. They have been tweaked according to SFraser's recommendations. So to answer your questions, this is the updated (latest) version of the original schedules. I'm not sure if they're the final version though as more findings may come to the light eventually, but for now these are the most up to date schedules.

Jesus H ****ing christ.

Please read the goddamn thread. There are no 'final' schedules. There isn't a 'set' as such. Simply deploying SFrasers trial/demo release won't get you that far since it's a couple of generic positions only. If you read the actual thread you'll note that SFraser has simply evolved a framework from which to customise your own which in turn might lead to a library of individual schedules from all those using his theorem as the basis for their schedules.

I currently have around 38 schedules for different positions and roles. I then have about 6 players on an individual focus in an effort to increase skills in key areas, or to make them more rounded where applicable.

But jeez, there is no magic download. All you'll do is download the sample set. Then come back to complain they are too heavy 'cos you didn't read the thread, then come back to ask about positions 'cos you didn't read the thread, then come back and ask what the difference is between ST & CF 'cos you didn't read the thread.

What people are failing to realise is that there's not likely to be a single set of master schedules. The entire thread talks about focus - why would we all train our squads with the same focus? We all have different players!!?

For the record, the ones I built myself based on my team, and my weightings, and my focus, with my current players, are massivly more effective than the ones being downloaded by the overwhelming number of ignorant quick fix hunters. Ergo, you'd be better off reading the thread, learning, and making them yourselves.

[Indi75]

I was using the training module last night and thought I'd post about an observation I made.

If you create a new schedule, set one category slider to notch 4 and another to notch 1, and then drag the Overall Workload slider to the right you will notice that the slider set to 4 will move a further 4 notches before the slider set to 1 moves by an additional notch. This is true for all the category sliders.

I think this is very interesting because this supports the category Unit assumption. The mechanics of Overall Workload, as observable to the user, works to increase the training schedule by the set category ratios.

This may be a known feature, I'd be surprised if SFraser hadn't noticed this when developing this approach to schedule design, but I haven't ever seen it noted in this forum. It's another reason for me at least to feel confident in using this approach and these schedules.

It's been that way for a while, although I'd not realised it was so exact. So attacking on 2 and shooting on 3 should move to 4 and 6 respectively as you drag workload, yes?

[ProZone]

It's been that way for a while, although I'd not realised it was so exact. So attacking on 2 and shooting on 3 should move to 4 and 6 respectively as you drag workload, yes?

Correct

[SFraser]

I didn't notice that either, that is an excellent spot.

As for the "Final Version" of the schedules, Prozone, DocSander and myself are working on a tool (work I have been holding up) for constructing schedules based on this training thread. The release of that tool will undoubtedly take much longer than releasing a set of updated schedules, but as Indi rightly points out the end result should be much, much superior for all users than any set of schedules I could produce.

@ Indi, you talk about using your own weightings. I was wondering what weightings they are, and if you had spotted anything to take into account that produces a superior end result?