Mitja

Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Do you think Wizard should include 'Cutting In' roles for ML and MR positions?   71 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think Wizard should include 'Cutting In' roles for ML and MR positions?

    • Yes, it is a common thing in real football.
      54
    • No, never seen teams playing like that.
      17

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79 posts in this topic

AML and AMR positions have 'Cutting In' roles, 'Adavced Playmaker' and 'Inside Forward'.

I find it weird that ML and MR positions don't include such role. it's a quite basic thing in modern football imo (think of Ribery, Simao, Modric, Kranjcar, Cazorla, Pires, Gourcuff, Turan, Benayoun, Nani, Mancini, even Zidane, Ronaldo and Messi.. and other creative type of wingers).

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[quote name='Mitja']AML and AMR positions have 'Cutting In' roles, 'Adavced Playmaker' and 'Inside Forward'.

I find it weird that ML and MR positions don't include such role. it's a quite basic thing in modern football.

Vote.[/QUOTE]


ML and MRs are positoned deeper so cutting in towards a crowded middle is a bad idea, plus you will find with side midfielder they do come in towards the middle more :thup:

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I'd guess that ML/MR need the freedom to run down the wing first, ie. to an AML/AMR position, while AML/AMR are already there and thus can cut in from their position. If you told your ML/MR to cut inside then chances are they'd end up lost in the middle of the pitch.

Does that make sense?

Edit: Megafan beat me to it and worded it better. I'm half-asleep; forgive me?

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[quote name='Hershie']I'd guess that ML/MR need the freedom to run down the wing first, ie. to an AML/AMR position, while AML/AMR are already there and thus can cut in from their position. If you told your ML/MR to cut inside then chances are they'd end up lost in the middle of the pitch.

Does that make sense?

Edit: Megafan beat me to it and worded it better. I'm half-asleep; forgive me?[/QUOTE]


I thought you worded it a lot better :D

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[quote name='megafan2005']ML and MRs are positoned deeper so cutting in towards a crowded middle is a bad idea, plus you will find with side midfielder they do come in towards the middle more :thup:[/QUOTE]

I guess many real life managers would disagree with you.

in real life you can instruct players to make runs and move wherever you want. and you can't do that in FM with default ML and MR roles.

usually teams which play that way have fullback who overlaps and provides width instead of winger and strikers roam around.

it's all about movement, not positioning.

:thup:

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[quote name='Hershie']I'd guess that ML/MR need the freedom to run down the wing first, ie. to an AML/AMR position, while AML/AMR are already there and thus can cut in from their position. If you told your ML/MR to cut inside then chances are they'd end up lost in the middle of the pitch.

Does that make sense?

Edit: Megafan beat me to it and worded it better. I'm half-asleep; forgive me?[/QUOTE]

you never seen it in real game? :D

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[quote name='Mitja']I guess many real life managers would disagree with you.

in real life you can instruct players to make runs and move wherever you want. and you can't do that in FM with default ML and MR roles.

usually teams which play that way have fullback who overlaps and provides width instead of winger and strikers roam around.

it's all about movement, not positioning.

:thup:[/QUOTE]
You're talking about wingers, not wide-midfielders though. Wide-midfielders stay wide, thus their name. Wingers at all but the very top level will be responsible for staying wide and simply getting crosses in, with the fullbacks lacking the ability or vision to support them or the defence lacking the ability to cover for them.

If you want your ML/MR to play that way though, change their settings so they do, but I can't imagine it'll work too well. The cutting in occurs higher up the pitch, ie. at the AML/AMR position, so if you want your players to do that play them there. :confused:

:thup:

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[quote name='Mitja']you never seen it in real game? :D[/QUOTE]
I have, and I know that the vast majority of wingers are not told to cut inside - only those at teams with fullbacks who can support attacks - and those who do usually play AML/R rather than ML/R.

Having the wide-midfielders set to 'normal' or 'moves into channels' for how they play on the wing does not mean they don't cut inside ever, but it means that they'll move into positions to best support the team's attacks, and normally this means staying wide to put crosses in.

What role are you actually trying to get your players to play? Wingers or wide-midfielders?

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ok, fair enogh. but I'm talking about being able to instruct players. and we can't, even if it's the most stupid idea to set them to Cut In.

so you think Tottenham (for example) don't play with ML and MR wingers, but AML and AMR and Lennon and Kranjcar/Modric have same roles?

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You can tell them to cut in. Click on them on the tactics screen, go to 'Advanced', and then change 'Wide Play' setting.

Tottenham play with AML and AMR, but the players are different and so have different roles. While whoever is at AML may have more freedom to drift inside, take shots, act as more of a playmaker, Lennon's role is to take the ball down the right wing, and then either put crosses in or run in to the box. He does not always cut inside however, but his pace and creativity, as well as the element of freedom allowed to him, means that he will cut inside when it's a good idea to.

What's your point here exactly? You can instruct your players to play totally different roles for similar positions if you want. Just because the defaults don't fit your players doesn't mean you can't do it. The tactics creator is a guide, not an absolute.

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[quote name='Hershie']You can tell them to cut in. Click on them on the tactics screen, go to 'Advanced', and then change 'Wide Play' setting.[/QUOTE]

I really didn't know that, thanks. :D

[quote name='Hershie']Tottenham play with AML and AMR, but the players are different and so have different roles. While whoever is at AML may have more freedom to drift inside, take shots, act as more of a playmaker, Lennon's role is to take the ball down the right wing, and then either put crosses in or run in to the box. He does not always cut inside however, but his pace and creativity, as well as the element of freedom allowed to him, means that he will cut inside when it's a good idea to.

What's your point here exactly? You can instruct your players to play totally different roles for similar positions if you want. Just because the defaults don't fit your players doesn't mean you can't do it. The tactics creator is a guide, not an absolute.[/QUOTE]

Tottenham play basic 442 which allows players to express them selves the way you described. we can't do that with default roles which makes shouting instructions for that player useless for example. the way it is, current roles don't allow you play any other winger type than crossing wingers (and defensive winger whatever it is). but as you said in Tottenham example, there are other types of wingers, maybe not so typical for british football..

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No problem! :)

Generally ML/MR aren't creative players or allowed much freedom, but if you wish to you can give them greater freedoms and roaming. As for AML/AMR you can perhaps give them playmaker settings but not make them playmaker, or set them as an inside forward. Obviously it's not 100% ideally but it's certainly very possible to get your players to play as you'd like them to.

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you don't think players like Modric, Ribery, Simao or Santi are creative? I would still much rather trust their managers who allow them to play that way than you :)

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I do, but they don't generally play in flat midfields. Also, as I've said, beyond the top teams such positions are not generally hugely creative players, but if you have creative players give them extra freedom and let them play a more expansive game.

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[quote name='Hershie']I do, but they don't generally play in flat midfields. Also, as I've said, beyond the top teams such positions are not generally hugely creative players, but if you have creative players give them extra freedom and let them play a more expansive game.[/QUOTE]

I'm aware I can change instructions there's no need to keep repeating it. I'm talking about default roles, there are 15 different roles for MCs and STs but there's no creative role for wingers? even DCs have more role options than wingers.

Atletico, Villareal and Tottenham play basic 442 with all 4 midfielders in line when defending. Bayern played that way last year. also it is a common thing in my country league which is far from being the top. I would say it is a common thing everywhere outside UK.

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There is no real creative role for wingers though. They're still wingers, just with more creative freedom. If you have a more creative team, play a more creative system with more freedom, but your wingers are still wingers.

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ok, thanks for the tip but you're missing the point.

you don't think Kranjcar (Creative) and Lennon (Traditional Winger) have different instructions? you said they do play differently..

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They do, but as I'm saying the basic tactical defaults are only a guide. For the vast majority of players the basic instructions will surfice, but to get the best out of some players, partiucularly the top ones, tweaking beyond the default settings may be required. There's much more to tactics than just picking a role in the tactics creator.

Having said that, Kranjcar as a wide midfielder and Lennon as a winger and both with high levels of creative freedom should produce pretty good results.

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[quote name='Hershie']They do, but as I'm saying the basic tactical defaults are only a guide. For the vast majority of players the basic instructions will surfice, but to get the best out of some players, partiucularly the top ones, tweaking beyond the default settings may be required. There's much more to tactics than just picking a role in the tactics creator.[/QUOTE]

there's no doubt about that.

[quote name='Hershie']Having said that, Kranjcar as a wide midfielder and Lennon as a winger and both with high levels of creative freedom should produce pretty good results.[/QUOTE]

I understand that we may have different wiew about this, no problem. also I'm aware that in UK this role is not widely accepted, you preffer traditional, fast crossing wingers.

try to understand that in other parts of the world such role actually exists and that all best players in one team play that way, no metter if they're ML or AML, it's 'the same thing' in real life. traditional #10, Trequartista or AMC Playmaker (or whatever you want to call it) just defends on the wing and has freedom to move wherever he wants.

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I agree that they are missing a Messi type role on the wing, being a free roaming go wherever you want as long as you protect the flanks in the default wizard.

You can create this role with the instructions, but yeah, fair enough it isn't on the official roles.

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[quote name='monkeywool']I agree that they are missing a Messi type role on the wing, being a free roaming go wherever you want as long as you protect the flanks in the default wizard.

You can create this role with the instructions, but yeah, fair enough it isn't on the official roles.[/QUOTE]

yeah thank you. and AI will never chenge the instructions, which meens it will always set any type of winger with traditional/crossing role even if the player can't play what's demanded, for example right footed player with poor crossing ability and no pace, as a ML.

I already mentioned that shouting instructions don't work for players with changed instructions.

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[quote name='Mitja']I guess many real life managers would disagree with you.

in real life you can instruct players to make runs and move wherever you want. and y[B]ou can't do that in FM with default ML and MR roles.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes you can. Just click advanced and then change the 'wide play' setting.

C.

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[quote name='jbutton']i cut in side at right back :L[/QUOTE]

My current left-back on the game is right footed and he is set to the 'wing-back' role. He cuts inside on to his preferred foot and has scored a couple of cracking goals this season.

C.

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[quote name='crouchaldinho']Yes you can. Just click advanced and then change the 'wide play' setting.

C.[/QUOTE]

are you sure?

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Yes it should be. I am sick of relying on PPM's just to get a team to play how I want.
Half the time they refuse to learn new moves as well, which is just plain annoying if there is no way to make them play a certain way in the tactics panel ..

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The way I see it is that the flat wide-men isn't what most countries consider wingers. Wingers are the AML/AMR who may or may not have the instructions to "come deep for the ball". This means that a Lennon or Ribery will come pick up the ball at the ML/MR positions and then use their AML/AMR playing style to attack the opposition. Wingers were always the "run at people and cross", that's their original roles and as such they played higher up the pitch. It's only really in the invention of the 4-4-2 variation of tactics that more flatter wide-men have made a name for themselves.

Bestie.

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whether wingers play as AMRL/MRL is determined by defensive shape of team and this is same in FM. in transition phase most wide players (wingers and fullbacks) will position higher than in defensive formation. the same thing happens in FM.

but once a team is in ball posession it doesn't make sense to talk about positioning but movement. what was Ibrahimovic position yestrday against Estudiantes for example? he spent whole 2nd half behind Messi, Pedro and Henry making runs from deep and moved to the flanks. was he a striker?

same thing with Lennon and Kranjcar. manager will just let them play their natural game and do what they're good at when attacking. when posession is lost they need to cover their MR and ML zone.

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For those who want Modric to play for Spurs as he does irl- Ive found a bit of a solution. Seeing as Spurs allow him to play like that due to Ekotto or Bale being both able to play as wing backs and provide the real width on the left resulting in a lop sided formation, to replicate this I play them as such (either a wingback or attacking fullback) and then play Modric in a 3 man central midfield as a playmaker.

It seems to work defensively too if I play him on the left of the 3- as he tends to cover defensively out wide too.

This topic does show why many of us have criticised the tactical side, that for all its complexity it still doesnt give you the power to define offensive and defensive shape in an intuitive manner. SI really need to allow us to define this in such a manner- it would perhaps even eliminate some sliders- it would be very useful for those who like 433/451 too.

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[quote name='Mitja']whether wingers play as AMRL/MRL is determined by defensive shape of team and this is same in FM. in transition phase most wide players (wingers and fullbacks) will position higher than in defensive formation. the same thing happens in FM.

but once a team is in ball posession it doesn't make sense to talk about positioning but movement. what was Ibrahimovic position yestrday against Estudiantes for example? he spent whole 2nd half behind Messi, Pedro and Henry making runs from deep and moved to the flanks. was he a striker?

same thing with Lennon and Kranjcar. manager will just let them play their natural game and do what they're good at when attacking. when posession is lost they need to cover their MR and ML zone.[/QUOTE]

I agree totally with this- and its why we need to define a defensive formation for the team, it would make it so much easier for players to then define where players should be covering when the ball is lost. We need more instructions- Lennon is an attacking player but due to his pace and workrate he covers Charlie (Corluka) well, where is the option to tell an attacking player with the neccessary attributes to support his fullback or double up? With the wizard FM is heading in the right direction but we need more.

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[quote name='George Graham returns']For those who want Modric to play for Spurs as he does irl- Ive found a bit of a solution. Seeing as Spurs allow him to play like that due to Ekotto or Bale being both able to play as wing backs and provide the real width on the left resulting in a lop sided formation, to replicate this I play them as such (either a wingback or attacking fullback) and then play Modric in a 3 man central midfield as a playmaker.[/QUOTE]

if you set him manualy to Cut in and Roam and reduce his crossing he will actually play quite similar as he does irl. but we're not able to do it via wizard which makes shouting instructions useless for that player. AI can't change this instuctions, which will make wrong footed wide players less effective, but tbh I'm not even sure if AI chooses different roles than default ones. what I really can't understand is that AML/R positions have 2 'Cutting in' roles, with only big difference between ML/R and AML/R being defensive positioning.

whether such role exists irl, I think it's not even worth discussing.

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[quote name='George Graham returns']I agree totally with this- and its why we need to define a defensive formation for the team, it would make it so much easier for players to then define where players should be covering when the ball is lost. We need more instructions- Lennon is an attacking player but due to his pace and workrate he covers Charlie (Corluka) well, where is the option to tell an attacking player with the neccessary attributes to support his fullback or double up? With the wizard FM is heading in the right direction but we need more.[/QUOTE]

I would love that and I think that's how it works irl, defensive shape is fixed and it is indeed about keeping that shape and good positioning. in attack the opposite happens, you need to brake opponent's shape, that's why attacking movement needs to be unpredictable and it's much more flexible than defensive movement. in FM player movement depends too much on positions and we hardly have any control over player movement. that's why I think having one more role for wide midfielders would inrcrease our choices (and AI too hopefully) in that department.

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[quote name='Mitja']if you set him manualy to Cut in and Roam and reduce his crossing he will actually play quite similar as he does irl. [B]but we're not able to do it via wizard which makes shouting instructions useless for that player.[/B] [/quote]

Don't think this is true. Changing his 'wide play' option in the advanced settings does not have any effect on touchline shouts as far as I am aware.

[quote]with only big difference between ML/R and AML/R being defensive positioning.[/QUOTE]

Defensive [I]and[/I] offensive positioning actually.

You can easily achieve this if you want to. Place player on opposite flank to his footedness, select 'wide play' option to 'cut inside' in advanced wizard options. Job done.

If I can get my fullback (right footer on left flank) to cut inside without even touching his 'wide play' setting (which is set to 'normal' by default) then you can easily do this with MR/ML.

Infact, MR and ML are set to 'normal' wide play when on the 'wide midfielder' role. Therefore, I feel confident that if you put a player on the opposite flank to his preferred foot, he will naturally come inside with the ball. Check it yourself. :)

Regards,
C.

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I guess you think such role doesn't exist?

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you don't think Ribery or Modric are deliberatly asked to play the way they play?

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Mitja: Forward
Happiness: Determined to prove his worth to the team
Slight Concerns: Prefers game to be very realistic
Media Handling Style: Confrontational :p

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ha, yeah I guess so. time to go to bed :D

would like to know what others think about it.

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[quote name='Mitja']I guess you think such role doesn't exist?[/QUOTE]

Are you responding to my post? :confused:

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[quote name='Mitja']yes to yours.[/QUOTE]

Did you not read the post? :confused:

I've tried to help. I wasn't arguing with you.

C.

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I'm arguing? sorry..

I thought I just asked a question. the thing is though, I don't need a help. I'm perfectly aware everything you're saying.

by the way 'wide play' does affect shouting instructions :)

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[quote name='Mitja']by the way 'wide play' does affect shouting instructions :)[/QUOTE]

Which ones does it have an effect on?

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What is this role you are talking about then?

Surely it's just 'wide midfielder' playing on the flank opposite to his footedness and therefore coming inside?

C.

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[quote name='Mitja']width instructions[/QUOTE]

'Exploit the flank' and 'Exploit the middle'? I didn't realise that. Thanks for letting me know, I will have to check that out next time I use the shouts. :)

But it doesn't really matter because you can still use 'wide midfielder' with the default wide play setting and achieve the effect that you want. :thup:

It also doesn't really matter because you surely wouldn't use these shouts if you had a particular desire to see a certain type of wing play in the first place, would you?

C.

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[quote name='Mitja']...think of Ribery, Simao, Modric, Kranjcar, Cazorla, Pires, Gourcuff, Turan, Benayoun, Nani, Mancini, even Zidane, Ronaldo and Messi.. and other creative type of wingers).[/QUOTE]

A whole bunch of the players you mention here in your opening post, I would consider as attacking midfielders (AMR/AML) anyway and not wide midfielders (MR/ML) in a 4-4-2 for instance.

In my opinion, a lot of the players you are talking about are playing the 'inside forward' role as an AMR/AML.

C.

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why have different roles then in the first place? you are awere of the 'difference' between Central Defender Cover/Defend/Stopper? or Central Midfielder Support and Deep Playmaker Support..

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[quote name='crouchaldinho']A whole bunch of the players you mention here in your opening post, I would consider as attacking midfielders (AMR/AML) anyway and not wide midfielders (MR/ML) in a 4-4-2 for instance.

In my opinion, a lot of the players you are talking about are playing the 'inside forward' role as an AMR/AML.

C.[/QUOTE]

no I deliberatly put such players who's teams play basic 442. there are a couple excpetions though...:)

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