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Millie

Tactical Theorems & Frameworks

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Can I start by taking my hat off the all those involved in this publication. THe work gone into this is amazing. I'll be honest by stating that I'm from the philsophy of downloading over people's tactic to play fm and using TT10 is probably the closest I will ever come to actually creating a tactic.

Can I just ask though, one thing I have notcied from reading the document is that they don't inform you what starting strategy is?

Is this something that is down to personal choice or is the starting strategy also part of the "legendary" tactics outlined in this document?

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Starting strategy is always game and manager specific. It all depends on the situation - that's why we didn't mention it.

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Firstly, another year another fantastic Tactical Theorems, so well done chaps.

However, I must say that I was a little disappointed that there is no mention of the tactics employed by the mighty Roy Hodgson ??

Steve Bruce has tactic detailed, but what has he done at Sunderland other than spend big ?

Roy plays a similar 4-4-2 with a target man and a poacher, but has a much more disciplined team, that tackles less and stand's off more in order to keep their shape. This not only saved us from certain relegation, but the following season had us finishing in seventh with the best defensive record outside the top four and qualifying for a european competition, with a group of players that aren't the most talented or most creative. The same has outplayed the likes of Roma and Liverpool this season and is on the verge of qualifying from their group.

I think a detailed look at Hodgson's tactics would be a very worthwhile addition to an already top notch publication.

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I'd like to reiterate what FulFulham_Mic: Hodgson consistently overachieves with his Fulham side. He epitomises the influence a manager can have on a team, and the importance of a sturdy defence.

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Not seen much of Fulham to be able to comment, to be honest. :) We found a few styles that we knew a little about, and recreated those ones. The plan is, over the coming months, to add more based on community feedback. If you have some ideas about how Fulham play (in real life or in the game), then feel free to head along to our forums and help us build them.

You'll notice as well that we have a Bulgarian member, so we have some Bulgarian tactics. There was no real "priority" list as such. But I agree - if there were, I think Hodgson would be ahead of Bruce. :)

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I'm currently working on a Hodgson'esque tactic for my Fulham side and will gladly share my findings once I've got it working properly.

However, until then these are my thoughts on how Hodsgon expects Fulham to play, based on how the game lets you set things up:

- Standard 4-4-2

- Rigid or Very Rigid (Not yet played enough games to decide)

- Low creative freedom except for the right MC position which Danny Murphy occupies (Deep lying playmaker)

- Stand off more and easy tackling, except for the left MC(d) position which Etuhu occupies (Ball winning midfielder)

- Deep lying forward (Zamora) and advanced forward (Johnson/Kamara)

My findings are that the right and left midfielders should be pushed up into the winger positions so that the inside forward role can be applied here. Hodgson plays Dempsey on the left and Duff on the right, so that they can come inside and shoot using their natural foot, which is the oppostie of what it should be for that side.

Also, Zamora should be a target man, but seems to play better in the game as a deep lying forward.

Hangeland playing as the left DC should be set as the one that comes out of defence to cut off advancing players, whilst Hughes as the right DC should be set as the one that plays a little deeper to pick up through balls etc (sorry, can't remember the exact role description)

The fullbacks should be left as automatic as Hodgson likes them to get forward, but both are equally adept at tracking back and defending (Konchesky & Pantsil)

That's all I've got for now.

-Mic

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A couple of quick questions on Tactic Creator settings:

Why do wing-backs on 'support' have through balls set to often? And why do they mark tightly, but full-backs don't?

Why would a target man be set to 'stay back if needed' for attacking corners?

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Most support players have through balls set to often - the idea is that they hold behind the attacking players and look to feed in the attackers. Through balls helps them look for the penetrating pass.

A target man may be set to "stay back if needed" if he is on the support duty. Set piece instructions are very generic to start with - attacking players stay forward, support players hold back if they're needed, and defensive players stay back.

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I don't think I've posted here for a couple of years, but just popped in to congratulate those involved - the new tactics setup in game is an excellent addition (particularly individual width control) and TT10 is a fine companion.

A quick point on the lack of 'classic' examples for the 'wide midfielder' - did no one involved watch Liverpool at all during the 70s and 80s? Jimmy Case, Sammy Lee, Ray Houghton on the right; Ray Kennedy and Ronnie Whelan on the left. 'Wide midfielders' to a tee. Also on the wide inside forward - watch some clips from the Liverpool 5-0 Forest game, and a few others that season: John Barnes was as likely to burst through the centre or run into channels (often with Beardsley dropping deep and left) as he was to go down the touchline.

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A quick point on the lack of 'classic' examples for the 'wide midfielder' - did no one involved watch Liverpool at all during the 70s and 80s?

No. I wasn't born until 1985! :D

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TT&F has helped me a bunch, especially the ingame tweaking from stats. Thanks guys!

One question, is it common for you to get more CCCs than your opponents and still lose/draw? I've only played a few games, but it has been a problem so far. :( Hopefully i've just been unlucky. My forwards (RVP and Eduardo, very solid finishing) keeps missing. I also hit the post constantly!

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I don't think I've posted here for a couple of years, but just popped in to congratulate those involved - the new tactics setup in game is an excellent addition (particularly individual width control) and TT10 is a fine companion.

A quick point on the lack of 'classic' examples for the 'wide midfielder' - did no one involved watch Liverpool at all during the 70s and 80s? Jimmy Case, Sammy Lee, Ray Houghton on the right; Ray Kennedy and Ronnie Whelan on the left. 'Wide midfielders' to a tee. Also on the wide inside forward - watch some clips from the Liverpool 5-0 Forest game, and a few others that season: John Barnes was as likely to burst through the centre or run into channels (often with Beardsley dropping deep and left) as he was to go down the touchline.

I'd always wondered why Liverpool were so good. Never worked out it was to do with playing with 3 right sided midfielders and two left sided midfielders at the same time. Genius :p

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Just to ask, why is counter-attacking ticked on the attacking and overloading strategy?

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Looks like I'll be busy reading this tonight :D

Cheers for this, hopefully it'll help me create something special :thup:

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@Tezread - just e-mail me at support@fm-britain.co.uk using the same address you submitted and I'll take care of things right away!

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I have to say something about this. I just bought the game. Got my paycheck and went to the store to buy it. So I had to download TT10. I must say this version is a lot better than last year's version. With last year's TT&F I understood nothing of the game and couldn't use it in my favor. But this year I understand the game perfectly. This year I said to myself I would not use anybody else's tactics, but my own. And I'm doing it. I started my first season unemployed and took control of Arsenal Bila in ukranian premier league (the lowest division in Ukraine) a recently promoted team and predicted to be relegated, and I'm dominating the league, after 7 games, and almost eliminated Arsenal Kiev, from top league, from the Ukrania cup. All thanks to TT10. Thank you.

Cheers.

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Just to ask, why is counter-attacking ticked on the attacking and overloading strategy?

Aha! I literally came on this thread to ask this very question. I don't understand the logic here. The attacking strategy employs a high defensive line, lots of width, lots of closing down etc. and counter-attack. It seems, uhm... "counter-intuitive" to me. Can someone please explain?

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Counter attack puts all players on all out attack when they get possession of the ball, providing it sees such an attack as being "on". It doesn't mean that the team will deliberately hold back and wait to hit on the counter.

Thus, an attacking team will attack, but if there is definitely a chance of hitting a team quickly on the break it will attack even more.

That's the logic behind it. Again, another example of the old slider system not really being documented well enough and causing confusion and mistranslation. :)

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Question about holding midfielders. They don't hold very well in this version of the game. I've had to resort playing a MC and a DMC to get the effect of one holding and the other supporting. Seems to be some sort of pendalum effect going on when playing two MC's. despite their diffrents roles. Anyone else noticed this or is it just me?

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I'm currently playing 4-4-2 ,with one ball-wining MC ( defend duty ) and one DLP ( with support duty).

As my ball-winner player possess skills,required to be pure destroyer he is doing his job perfectly,giving freedom to his MC partner to build-up our play.

So , in summary, I didn't notice any problem with the ball-wining players behaviour.

May be the problem is in your current player's skills ?

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It is a very useful guide for us. I want to learn whose mentality determines the width, defensive line and tempo. You have said that attacking mentality brings high tempo, large pitch, high defensive line and aggresive tackles. Do you assume all players have attacking mentality in this case? If only attacking players have attacking mentality and defenders have low mentality, what should be the defensive line or tempo etc. ? I remember that you have said in the previous verisons that the mentality is determined according to the mentality of the defensive midfielder ( ex. Vieira in Arsenal, Roy Keane in Man. Utd.). Is it valid for 2010?

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I downloaded the ebook but when i open the file all i can see are strange signs.. :( Can someone help me out here plz (Y)

Have you downloaded a package to unzip the files? It should be an archive with three PDF files inside it. You could try a google search for WinRAR if you don't already habe it.

It is a very useful guide for us. I want to learn whose mentality determines the width, defensive line and tempo. You have said that attacking mentality brings high tempo, large pitch, high defensive line and aggresive tackles. Do you assume all players have attacking mentality in this case? If only attacking players have attacking mentality and defenders have low mentality, what should be the defensive line or tempo etc. ? I remember that you have said in the previous verisons that the mentality is determined according to the mentality of the defensive midfielder ( ex. Vieira in Arsenal, Roy Keane in Man. Utd.). Is it valid for 2010?

The assumptions are the same ones as those employed by the tactics creator. We don't discuss the sliders in great detail in this version, though we are planning a later release with more information about the underlying slider assumptions.

We don't advocate massive differences in mentality between players though - in an attacking tactic, even those with a "defend" duty should have a reasonably high mentality. Best thing to do is to play with the creator and see the changes this makes to the "advanced" instructions.

What are considered as key passes?

Very good question. I don't know the actual statistical measure the game uses, but I will try and find out.

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If I have a very low cross completion rate probably because I do not have strikers that are strong in the air. What shout would you recommend to play the ball on the ground more?

Also, what is a decent tackle success rate?

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If I have a very low cross completion rate probably because I do not have strikers that are strong in the air. What shout would you recommend to play the ball on the ground more?

Absolutely, yes. Work the ball into the box or try through balls.

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For the tackles, about 80%+.

So if my tackle win rate is at 50% or below and I am winning, I should still use the shout "Get Stuck In"?

Also, is it possible to have a shout on permanently in my tactic?

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I doubt so cause tackling harder can probably make you commit more fouls which could result in direct freekicks.

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As with all things tacticall "it depends". Are you missing tackles because your players are totally out of position all the time and having to stretch back to get the ball, or are they close enough most of the time but just missing? If it's the former, concentrate more on your shape - the latter, you may need to go in harder.

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Thanks a lot for writing this, and also thanks for your involvement in the new tactics creator which makes it far easier to let your team play the way you want. However, after reading I have some questions, and I hope this thread is the right place to ask them.

First, I've noticed that literally all examples have the fullbacks on "auto" instructions. Does this mean that the wingback/fullback role is the preferred way of differentiating between attacking and regular fullbacks? And are there situations where "support" instructions are preferred over "auto"?

Also, I'm not quite sure about the playmaker instructions. The e-book lists both Kaka and Riquelme as advanced playmakers, but there is some difference between them. Players such as Riquelme and Veron are positioned closer to the rest of the midfield, and try to distribute the ball to the wingers, or try through balls for the forwards. In contrast, guys like Kaka and Diego are usually the ones that receive through balls, and play far closer to attack than to midfield. Does this difference exist in the tactics creator? For example, one is a advanced playmaker on "support" and the other on "attack"?

Finally, I'm not quite sure if I understand what philosophy is about. The e-book defines it as "In Football Manager it defines how rigid or loose players are at sticking to their specific position on the field". How is that different to the "roaming" setting then? It's also confusing that Manchester United is the example for rigid, as their attacking players are constantly swapping positions and moving around, and they play without a classical defensive midfielder. To take Ancelotti's Milan as example, would that be rigid or fluid?

Sorry again if this thread is the wrong place to post these questions, but it seemed appropriate :)

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Fullbacks - "auto" duties change based on the strategy. So, for attacking strategies they will be attacking, for balanced ones they will be support. You could set these manually if you wished (for instance, you may have a left back who is really slow so you don't want him to attack and leave his position), or if you wanted an asymmetrical style of play with one fullback doing one thing, and one doing another. Auto just ensures balance regardless of strategy.

Playmakers - a playmaker on support will focus on dropping into the "hole" between midfield and attack and spraying through balls and killer passes around. One with the attack instruction will push much further on and look more for the final assist, and perhaps try to score a few themselves.

Philosophy - philosophy positions the players relative to each other. It's the framework around which the team is built, dictating where players should be playing relative to their team mates. For example, on the rigid philosophy, everyone is spaced out so that the centre backs play slightly behind the full backs, who are behind the midfielders, who are behind the wingers, etc. For the more fluid ones, these distinctions are not as clearly defined.

Roaming, on the other hand, is the individual instruction to roam from not just the philosophy position but also the "chalk board" position. Roaming allows the player to go where they like in order to receive the ball and/or make more space for themselves.

Philosophy provides the framework so that the roaming player knows where they're roaming from.

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I have a doubt, i'm in page 36 and i want to ask something. For example if we have high tempo, high creative and width, if we change the stratagy to defensive all that will be "canceled" ?

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I Still dont get a confirmation e-mail, help?

Send an e-mail to support@fm-britain.co.uk and we'll get that sorted for you. :thup:

I have a doubt, i'm in page 36 and i want to ask something. For example if we have high tempo, high creative and width, if we change the stratagy to defensive all that will be "canceled" ?

If you manually change your tempo or creativity, then it won't be cancelled. If you've changed it using shouts or using the other changes in the tactics creator, then they won't be "cancelled", but modified relative to the strategy. So, if you choose "play wider" with a defensive strategy then that will be wider than the normal defensive strategy, but not as wide as "play wider" in the attacking strategy.

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Just downloaded this, barely read any yet but looks awesome. Thanks guys, great work!!

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Excellent work! Currently translating it to German with some friends of mine. I'll send you a PM with download links and so on if we're ready. Actually we're translating the Visions, rest of it is ready to release.

There are some minor grammatical errors within the Appendix, but unfortunately I haven't listed them. But anybody should get the message behind the Appendix. ;)

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hey was just wondering iv downloaded the file but how do i open it up or where do i extracted the files to ? cheers

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Once you've downloaded the file, extract the files to wherever you want. The files are PDFs and a read in a PDF viewer like Adobe Acrobat.

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Haven't thought of posting here, but I'd just like to offer my congratulations on TT&F10.

I wasn't a fan of TT&F09, which in my opinion was a great guide on real football but had no relevance to the deeply flawed match engine. However, this new version is sensational and completely relevant to both real football and the FM10 match engine - the tactics creator (obviously influenced itself by TT&F) is explained beautifully in the guide.

So a really well earned congratulations for developing TT&F and giving an immense resource to the community.

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Thanks. Millie and the others have done an immense job. In case it isn't clear, Tactical Theorems 10 was written in conjunction with the development of the tactics creator. My relative lack of involvement with writing the guide is due to having to work on the creator itself, which meant Millie taking over the main writing duties. As you said, he's done fantastically well.

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When will you make an announcement about the new release? I got my email and downloaded already - looking forward to reading when I have time. Looks a great addition.

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When will you make an announcement about the new release? I got my email and downloaded already - looking forward to reading when I have time. Looks a great addition.

The first appendix update to Tactical Theorems '10 will be released publicly on FM-Britain next week.

We just wanted to make sure everyone on our e-mail list who downloaded TT10 previously gets a first crack at it beforehand. It's our way of saying thanks!

Expect a lot more exclusive content through our mailing list though over the next few weeks & months, so if there's anyone out there not on it - definitely sign up.

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