Tactical Theorems & Frameworks

[Fabio MVP]

Unsticky this?

[wwfan]

TT&F10 was written around the development of the Tactics Creator. It's still the most fundamentally useful guide to FM10 tactics because of Millie's access to the thought processes behind the design and development. Hence, it stays stickied.

[Fabio MVP]

TT&F10 was written around the development of the Tactics Creator. It's still the most fundamentally useful guide to FM10 tactics because of Millie's access to the thought processes behind the design and development. Hence, it stays stickied.

Fair enough. Just thought because of everything what happened and with FM11 just behind the corner, maybe that should be unstickied.

But, hey, you're the mod!

[free honey]

I got it! Thank you for your hard work!

[mantralux]

It's still the most fundamentally useful guide to FM10 tactic...

...and still indirectly the main income of FM-Britain. Maybe it shouldn't be promoted as heavy as it is on the official forums, as it's a commercial product, acting as a lead-in to their £7.95 guide about absolutely nothing.

[dankrzyz]

...and still indirectly the main income of FM-Britain. Maybe it shouldn't be promoted as heavy as it is on the official forums, as it's a commercial product, acting as a lead-in to their £7.95 guide about absolutely nothing.

It's free and very helpful. That's what's worth knowing if you're new to FM or in need of tactical help.

And I don't think it's much of "lead in" to a document that doesn't appear to be featured for download on their site.

[mantralux]

It's free and very helpful.

Well it's "absolutely free".

That's what's worth knowing if you're new to FM or in need of tactical help.

For me it's equally important what kind of people are behind it.

And I don't think it's much of "lead in" to a document that doesn't appear to be featured for download on their site.

It's on the first page, right next to the FM-Britain logo.

They're marketing it as the "secrets of success" from the "beta testing dream team", and the key point: "From the publishers of the famed TACTICAL THEOREMS & FRAMEWORKS of the past five years".

It's obvious that TT is a lead-in and marketing key to CPW, as it's the only reason they can even ask for money in the first place.

Hopefully some newcomers to the game will realise what kind of shenanigans FMB are up to, and hopefully they will stop getting this biased encouragement from SI. There are other sites out there, most of them better than FMB....but they are the only ones who gets a sticky on the official forum.

[wwfan]

TT&F has always been stickied in the tactics forum. It has even been stickied in the main forum. I've never made a penny from writing it.

Yes, FMB was trying to commercialise, but that was down to a desire to keep the site functioning on the content producing level it had been working towards for years. 2-3 tactical blogs per week, 2 major guides and a series of pod and webcasts from a group of people holding down full time jobs, raising families and being in post-graduate education. The model was unsustainable without some kind of commercialisation. At the time of this decision, there was no objection from SI or SEGA, nor restrictions on Beta testers saying they were testers. However, FMB did jump the gun and make some poor communication decisions, which resulted in the disagreement. As you will see, content production has largely ceased with the decision to remain non-commercial. However, I still remain on good terms with both SI and FMB and, as I 'own' the TT&F project, even though I didn't write this version, there shouldn't be an issue with FMB keeping it available for FM11.

FMB's disagreement with SI doesn't stop TT&F being the most useful document for tactics in FM10 and FM11. It was produced in conjunction with the design of the Tactics Creator (i.e. one person wrote TT&F while others designed and coded the game). This iteration has an introduction from OV Collyer explaining all of this and it was expressly supported by SI.

There will not be a TT&F11. This is 100% down to the writers not having time to write it, as it takes hours and hours of dedication. FMB proposed a plan in which the site would be able to compensate the writers for time lost, which would have hopefully allowed them to produce a TT&F11. Because this was in opposition to SI's policy on community activities, they decided not to. As the tactics module has not been touched for FM11, TT&F10 is still the key guide and should still be the first point of call for anyone struggling with tactics. There's no denying other sites produce great stuff, but to declare they are 'better than FMB' when it comes to tactical guides is disingenuous at best.

What I might try to do is get FMB to release the FM10 guide as a forum thread for FM11. This would stop accusations of favouritism from SI, which is certainly not the case, and remind people that the staff at FMB have always, always supported the community first and foremost. Until then, I believe it should stay stickied as it is the best guide to tactics for FM11. This forum is set up to help people with tactics and it would be cutting off our nose to spite our face to restrict access to such a guide.

[mantralux]

I've never made a penny from writing it.

You didn't make money from the CPW guide?

Yes, FMB was trying to commercialise, but that was down to a desire to keep the site functioning on the content producing level it had been working towards for years. 2-3 tactical blogs per week, 2 major guides and a series of pod and webcasts from a group of people holding down full time jobs, raising families and being in post-graduate education. The model was unsustainable without some kind of commercialisation. As you will see, content production has largely ceased with the decision to remain non-commercial.

This argument doesn't hold up, and the reason is simple: there are plenty of people in the FM scene who are able to produce content on a higher level of quality than FM-Britain, without having to charge for anything. They provide the scene with high quality guides for no money at all, and spend lots of time doing it.

The real reason FM-Britain charged for CPW, is that they realised the commercial value of the TT guide, and got greedy. Failing to realise that if everyone approached the scene in the same way, they themselves wouldn't be able to use all the free stuff I'm sure they download to enrich their game experience. What if everyone would start charging for content, wouldn't be much of a scene.

We all have server costs, a life and other things to do. Difference is, some people create content because they love doing it, not in order to make money off it. It's not as if the money generated from CPW would only cover server costs, you know how much money could be generated from hyping it up with phrases like "beta test dream team" and using TT as a lead-in selling point.

FMB's disagreement with SI doesn't stop TT&F being the most useful document for tactics in FM10 and FM11. It was produced in conjunction with the design of the Tactics Creator (i.e. one person wrote TT&F while others designed and coded the game). This iteration has an introduction from OV Collyer explaining all of this and it was expressly supported by SI.

And that's the problem - a third party fansite being officially supported like this, makes all other fansites less worthy, even though they are fully capable of creating content at a higher quality level than FM-Britain. It's the whole teacher's pet thing that bugs people - people who put in double the effort, for free.

There will not be a TT&F11. This is 100% down to the writers not having time to write it, as it takes hours and hours of dedication.

There is a very simple solution to this problem: if FM-Britain aren't able to prioritise correctly, there are literally hundreds of others who would be willing to write a new "official" guide for the game. All SI has to do is to allow them unfair access, just like they did with FM-Britain in the first place.

Why is FM-Britain the only ones "allowed" to create such a guide? And if they don't have time for it, why not let someone else do the job they can't? Simple: FM-Britain would lose their whole commercial value if someone else did the TT11.

As the tactics module has not been touched for FM11, TT&F10 is still the key guide and should still be the first point of call for anyone struggling with tactics. There's no denying other sites produce great stuff, but to declare they are 'better than FMB' when it comes to tactical guides is disingenuous at best.

This is the kind of elite attitude that is distancing FM-Britain from the rest of the scene. Sorry, but I've seen plenty of articles, guides and content that is light years above what FM-Britain does.

So I frankly find that statement arrogant and delusional.

I've been on FM-Britain and it's not as if the content there sticks out. It's regular scene stuff at best, and the only thing that makes the site unique is the TT guide. That, and the fact that FM-Britain is the only third party charging for content for Football Manager.

This would stop accusations of favouritism from SI, which is certainly not the case

Are you serious? FM-Britain got unique access to the game development, and could therefor write a guide that creates an advantage over all other third party fansites....but you don't think SI is favouring FM-Britain? You are a moderator here, and you're obviously from FM-Britain...and the only stickied thread made by a third party is this one, clearly advertising TT10 on FM-Britains behalf, giving their site enormous amounts of hits, which in turn gives FM-Britain a high commercial value. Which makes it very easy to sell guides like CPW.

SI is clearly favouring FM-Britain above all other fansites, and that's a fact, not an accusation.

If not, they should have FM-Britain make a forum thread just like everyone else have to do, and then the thread would have to live on its own merits, not live because the moderator (from FM-Britain) have stickied it.

and remind people that the staff at FMB have always, always supported the community first and foremost

Sorry, but charging for content is exactly the opposite. It's supporting them first and foremost, as it pays for "server costs", and some vague "time spent" costs.

As I said, if everyone would start charging for content, no one from FM-Britain would be able to enrich their game experience, as they would have to pay more money to use the fan made stuff they do, than they actually generate from selling their own content.

Until then, I believe it should stay stickied as it is the best guide to tactics for FM11. This forum is set up to help people with tactics and it would be cutting off our nose to spite our face to restrict access to such a guide.

You're saying that as if it's a fact. It's one guide to tactics for FM2010. Elite attitude again, a phrase like "I think it's the best guide..." would probably sound better. But who cares, right? You're FM-Britain, the best of the best.

And I agree that it should be available, but it should live on its own merits, not stickied. If it really is the best tactical guide, it would have no problem being top of the threads every day. Good content produces good discussion.

[wwfan]

You didn't make money from the CPW guide?

No, I didn't. I didn't play any part in writing it, producing it, marketing it, selling it or making money out of it.

This argument doesn't hold up, and the reason is simple: there are plenty of people in the FM scene who are able to produce content on a higher level of quality than FM-Britain, without having to charge for anything. They provide the scene with high quality guides for no money at all, and spend lots of time doing it.

As has FMB, consistently, over the least four years. Problem is, nobody has the time to keep on doing it any more.

The real reason FM-Britain charged for CPW, is that they realised the commercial value of the TT guide, and got greedy. Failing to realise that if everyone approached the scene in the same way, they themselves wouldn't be able to use all the free stuff I'm sure they download to enrich their game experience. What if everyone would start charging for content, wouldn't be much of a scene.

No. The real reason was their wanting to continue with a hobby that was eating up more and more of their time. Without commercialisation, the key writers were going to have to give up, which is what they have done. I had already done so as I couldn't justify it anymore. Now others have followed suit.

We all have server costs, a life and other things to do. Difference is, some people create content because they love doing it, not in order to make money off it. It's not as if the money generated from CPW would only cover server costs, you know how much money could be generated from hyping it up with phrases like "beta test dream team" and using TT as a lead-in selling point.

I know they have made enough money to run the site for a number of years.

And that's the problem - a third party fansite being officially supported like this, makes all other fansites less worthy, even though they are fully capable of creating content at a higher quality level than FM-Britain. It's the whole teacher's pet thing that bugs people - people who put in double the effort, for free.

Not that I've seen. Let's get this in perspective. I designed the TC, from scratch, using TT&F sources and research as a base, all of which I've collected, collated and written down over the last 5 years. Ov Collyer then coded it into the game. Everybody involved in this project gave up all their time for free. It took 12 months, during which time I made no contributions to FMB at all. FMB further supported this project by writing TT&F for me, as I didn't have the time.

There is a very simple solution to this problem: if FM-Britain aren't able to prioritise correctly, there are literally hundreds of others who would be willing to write a new "official" guide for the game. All SI has to do is to allow them unfair access, just like they did with FM-Britain in the first place

.

SI have/had an unusually close relationship with FMB because of me. They still have a close relationship with me, but not with FMB. If I find another tactical guide that has the level of merit I'd be looking for, I'll be sure to contact the authors and try to get them involved at a deeper level. I'll also happily sticky it.

Why is FM-Britain the only ones "allowed" to create such a guide? And if they don't have time for it, why not let someone else do the job they can't? Simple: FM-Britain would lose their whole commercial value if someone else did the TT11.

You are again missing the point. SI and myself worked together on a design project for about 12 months. We asked some members of FMB to support this work, because they were involved with the research I put into TT&F over the last 5 years. TT&F10 was the result. CPW has nothing to do with any of this and is a completely separate project.

This is the kind of elite attitude that is distancing FM-Britain from the rest of the scene. Sorry, but I've seen plenty of articles, guides and content that is light years above what FM-Britain does.

So I frankly find that statement arrogant and delusional.

If you can point me to a guide that is light years ahead of the one written in conjunction with the design process for the TC, I'd love to read it. It wil be an invaluable resource for future development. I don't think FMB cares about the 'scene'. The staff have always focused on producing the best content possible and have never tried to compete with anyone else other than themselves.

I've been on FM-Britain and it's not as if the content there sticks out. It's regular scene stuff at best, and the only thing that makes the site unique is the TT guide. That, and the fact that FM-Britain is the only third party charging for content for Football Manager.

I don't think it is. I haven't seen another site that comes close to touching their work on tactics. Again, provide me with some examples and I'll accept your point. That is not to say there aren't other sites producing great stuff, but as a tactics specific site, nobody has come close to FMB for years. I'd happily sticky a links thread to great tactical content elsewhere when the forum clean up happens.

Are you serious? FM-Britain got unique access to the game development, and could therefor write a guide that creates an advantage over all other third party fansites....but you don't think SI is favouring FM-Britain? You are a moderator here, and you're obviously from FM-Britain...and the only stickied thread made by a third party is this one, clearly advertising TT10 on FM-Britains behalf, giving their site enormous amounts of hits, which in turn gives FM-Britain a high commercial value. Which makes it very easy to sell guides like CPW.

I haven't done any work for FMB for about 18 months as I don't have the time. I am still a silent partner of the site, but I am not involved in any of their operational decision making.

SI is clearly favouring FM-Britain above all other fansites, and that's a fact, not an accusation.

If not, they should have FM-Britain make a forum thread just like everyone else have to do, and then the thread would have to live on its own merits, not live because the moderator (from FM-Britain) have stickied it.

SI worked in partnership with FMB for 12 months, with TT&F10 and the TC as the results. They were part and parcel of the same project, hence the decision to allow FMB to have a stickied thread supporting the guide. The same thing happened for FM09. SI and FMB have now stopped working together over disagreements about FMB's operational direction. FMB has, as a result, decided not to become an affiliate. The only reason I am keeping this thread stickied is because it is as valid now as it was when FM10 was released.

You're saying that as if it's a fact. It's one guide to tactics for FM2010. Elite attitude again, a phrase like "I think it's the best guide..." would probably sound better. But who cares, right? You're FM-Britain, the best of the best.

And I agree that it should be available, but it should live on its own merits, not stickied. If it really is the best tactical guide, it would have no problem being top of the threads every day. Good content produces good discussion.

Again, it was written in conjunction with the design of the TC in order to support it (i.e. if they asked Paul, Ov or myself how things worked/were supposed to work, we told them). That's why it was stickied. Nothing to do with subsequent decisions about commercialisation.

My own opinion on the matter is that SI should utilise the talents of the scene in a more focused manner than they do now and I have told them so. However, this is currently not happening. The one site they have leveraged was FMB, completely through me at first, but later through the FMB staff supporting FML, which led to the development of the TC and a number of other changes. The success of this relationship should perhaps be regarded as a proof point for future leverage opportunities if sites produce the kind of quality work that can really aid development. For every game, at some point the players become the key drivers for development and I'd like SI to be more involved with the great work coming out of the scene in a similar way as they were involved with FMB. It hasn't happened yet, but I think it is the way of the future.

[wwfan]

I've read through your blog, and it is excellent and an exemplary read of how the TC is supposed to work and get people to think. Really outstanding work.

I will have a chat with some people and see if it is possible to work out a way in which the tactics forum can support such high quality work on a regular basis. We don't get enough of those types of posts here and they would really help people to understand how the TC can work on a team by team / real life tactics basis. Our aim is to help people play FM and stuff like this can help us do a better job. We just need the right policy in place.

[mantralux]

As has FMB, consistently, over the least four years. Problem is, nobody has the time to keep on doing it any more.

Well no, they provide some guides for free.

No. The real reason was their wanting to continue with a hobby that was eating up more and more of their time. Without commercialisation, the key writers were going to have to give up, which is what they have done. I had already done so as I couldn't justify it anymore. Now others have followed suit.

Once again, plenty of FM writers are performing a hobby that takes up plenty of time. We all have to pay server costs, and we all put as much time into the FM scene as FM-Britain does. FM-Britain isn't unique in any other sense than the unfair advantage with the TT - there is no reason to assume that writers at FM-Britain put more time into Football Manager than any other third party.

So the question is, why aren't anyone else trying to commercialise and sell their content? Why isn't anyone else complaining and writing open letters to SI? Simple; we don't do it for money, we do it because it's a passion. The whole point of the FM scene is sharing. That's why you'll find excellent third party editors (which I'm sure writers of FM-B have used at least once), graphics, guides, content.....for free, so that FM-B (amongst others) can enrich their gameplay.

Not that I've seen. Let's get this in perspective. I designed the TC, from scratch, using TT&F sources and research as a base, all of which I've collected, collated and written down over the last 5 years. Ov Collyer then coded it into the game. Everybody involved in this project gave up all their time for free. It took 12 months, during which time I made no contributions to FMB at all. FMB further supported this project by writing TT&F for me, as I didn't have the time.

Yes. And since you are/were FM-Britain, the site got an unfair advantage over all other third party sites. You designed something into the game, and then used the knowledge to create a guide that isn't possible for anyone else to do, as you are one of the few with the knowledge on how it actually works.

Not only did you get this advantage, but you used the information to promote FM-Britain, a fansite, as the know-it-all hub for anyone wanting to learn about a game feature that you designed. So FM-Britain gets all the credit, because one of their staff members worked on the game.

It's shady.

It would be better if you didn't exploit your advantage (knowledge) to promote a third party, but instead maybe work with SI to create an official guide/manual.

SI have/had an unusually close relationship with FMB because of me. They still have a close relationship with me, but not with FMB. If I find another tactical guide that has the level of merit I'd be looking for, I'll be sure to contact the authors and try to get them involved at a deeper level. I'll also happily sticky it.

How would you propose anyone would be able to write such a guide, without the inside knowledge that you provided FM-Britain with? You would have to already be involved on a deeper level in order to write such a guide from scratch, and that's exactly the unfair advantage I'm talking about. FM-Britain used your inside knowledge to create content that no one else would, because the lack of inside knowledge.

CPW has nothing to do with any of this and is a completely separate project.

It's not entirely separate. FM-Britain would never be able to sell CPW if it weren't for TT, which is their whole commercial value. You might argue that TT is free, but that's for the end user, and just because something is free doesn't mean it can't generate money for the creator. The amount of hits FM-Britain is getting because of TT and the official endorsement of SI, will have a pretty good ad value, and the fact is that CPW is sold with TT as a selling point.

No TT, no CPW. And lets be honest here...CPW isn't exactly unique. It doesn't contain anything you won't be able to find by looking through these forums. Unlike TT, no inside knowledge was required to write it, and therefor anyone could have done it. I've even seen better versions, versions that surely don't need 67 pages to convey the intended message.

If you can point me to a guide that is light years ahead of the one written in conjunction with the design process for the TC, I'd love to read it.

Not exactly what I said. I said that other sites create articles and guides that are better than FM-B. Of course no one could write the TT, you would need the inside information that was given to FM-Britain exclusively, giving them a unique advantage, and an elite attitude in the process.

I don't think FMB cares about the 'scene'.

Exactly my point. They think they're above it.

The staff have always focused on producing the best content possible and have never tried to compete with anyone else other than themselves.

Same goes for every single third party out there. But FM-B are the only ones claiming that their content is the best.

I don't think it is. I haven't seen another site that comes close to touching their work on tactics. Again, provide me with some examples and I'll accept your point.

The one we're on right now has plenty of tactic discussion, most of it far better than any hastily written guesswork on FM-Britain.

SI worked in partnership with FMB for 12 months, with TT&F10 and the TC as the results. They were part and parcel of the same project, hence the decision to allow FMB to have a stickied thread supporting the guide.

This is the whole definition of "favouritism", and yet you claim this isn't the case.

SI and FMB have now stopped working together over disagreements about FMB's operational direction.

That's one way of putting it. Another way of putting it would be that FM-Britain used their unfair advantage in the third party scene to make money from something that everyone else happily does for free, all while being officially favoured over all other fansites - essentially making them endorsed by SI = more sales = more money.

The only reason I am keeping this thread stickied is because it is as valid now as it was when FM10 was released.

I don't mind information about how the game works, it's just shady when the information is used to promote a fansite.

It's not as if FM-Britain have some exceptional talent above anyone else....they just happened to have the contact that allowed them to gain inside information to write a guide that no one else could.

If you would have been affiliated with Susie or LW, they could have written the exact same thing. The key is the inside information, not the site.

Again, it was written in conjunction with the design of the TC in order to support it (i.e. if they asked Paul, Ov or myself how things worked/were supposed to work, we told them). That's why it was stickied. Nothing to do with subsequent decisions about commercialisation.

That might not have been the intention, but it is the end product whether you like it or not. By having this thread as a sticky, you're heavily endorsing FM-Britain as an official representative of SI (moderator on the official forum), clearly showing heavy bias towards FM-Britain. And in the process, giving them even more traffic to their site, which in turns generates money for them.

Even if you wouldn't know that, it's still (once again) giving an unfair advantage to FM-Britain. And in that process, disrespectful to all other third party fansites out there that are equally adept, or better, at making content.

For every game, at some point the players become the key drivers for development and I'd like SI to be more involved with the great work coming out of the scene in a similar way as they were involved with FMB. It hasn't happened yet, but I think it is the way of the future.

Well you would need to have someone on the inside, like FM-B had with you, otherwise you're screwed.

[mantralux]

I've read through your blog, and it is excellent and an exemplary read of how the TC is supposed to work and get people to think. Really outstanding work.

I will have a chat with some people and see if it is possible to work out a way in which the tactics forum can support such high quality work on a regular basis. We don't get enough of those types of posts here and they would really help people to understand how the TC can work on a team by team / real life tactics basis. Our aim is to help people play FM and stuff like this can help us do a better job. We just need the right policy in place.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about myself when I say that there are better things out there. I'm a lone blogger, so obviously I won't be able to produce content at the same level of frequency as the big fansites that have 20-30 staff writing content all the time.

But the point is, I've never once thought about using my content to make money. I have no ads, my site is generating no money at all, and never will. A hobby is something you enjoy doing, and happily pay for to keep doing. As long as I have passion to create content, I'll happily pay for the server costs.

The second you start thinking of ays to generate money out of it, the hobby becomes a business opportunity, and that's when the passion goes out the window. That's what happened to FM-Britain - too much power and all of a sudden it's ultimatums to SI and so on. The CPW is sterile to say the least, and so is TT to be honest. They both feel like they were made only to generate commercial value, which is essentially what they did.

[wwfan]

So the question is, why aren't anyone else trying to commercialise and sell their content? Why isn't anyone else complaining and writing open letters to SI?

The staff at FMB decided to either commercialise or give up. They don't have the time to continue producing at the level they have done historically and the time spent was negatively affecting their personal lives. Because they wanted to continue, they tried to work out a business model that would allow them to prioritise time on running the site. As mentioned 1000s of times already, this was mainly time related, but it also relates to them not wanting their baby (the site) to die.

Ultimately, the project failed because of SI's objections. This may mean the demise of FMB.

Yes. And since you are/were FM-Britain, the site got an unfair advantage over all other third party sites. You designed something into the game, and then used the knowledge to create a guide that isn't possible for anyone else to do, as you are one of the few with the knowledge on how it actually works.

Not only did you get this advantage, but you used the information to promote FM-Britain, a fansite, as the know-it-all hub for anyone wanting to learn about a game feature that you designed. So FM-Britain gets all the credit, because one of their staff members worked on the game.

Again, perspective. SI, specifically Ov Collyer, approached me and asked if I would get involved with designing a new tactics system. I happily agreed. However, I wanted to work with people I trusted and respected, so naturally surrounded myself with the people I'd collaborated with at FM and this forum over the last five years. Part of that agreement was that they would produce TT&F instead of me, so I could fully focus on the design project.

Nobody has been paid a cent for this work. All that FMB wanted to do was to host the TT&F guide rather than have it as a forum post as they 'owned' it. A sort of quid pro quo agreement. FMB then suggested a business model that could make this type of working relationship a bit more structured and trialled it. However, it was rejected and, due to some communication blocks, a few arguments that could have been avoided unfortunately took place.

FMB has only ever sold one piece of key content over the 7 odd years it has been in existence. It has never asked for donations, nor offered premium membership, as some other sites do. Its business model was only about producing high quality written content that supported tactical theories developed through the 8 editions of TT&F, which they hoped could be plugged back into development. That's now not going to happen.

[mantralux]

The staff at FMB decided to either commercialise or give up. They don't have the time to continue producing at the level they have done historically and the time spent was negatively affecting their personal lives.

Yeah I understand this argument, but what I'm saying is that there are hundreds of people in the FM scene that produces content at the same level, or higher, and none of them are complaining that it takes a toll on their personal life. Because it's a hobby, not a business opportunity.

Ultimately, the project failed because of SI's objections. This may mean the demise of FMB.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Again, perspective. SI, specifically Ov Collyer, approached me and asked if I would get involved with designing a new tactics system.

Yes, he didn't approach FM-Britain, he approached you.

I happily agreed. However, I wanted to work with people I trusted and respected, so naturally surrounded myself with the people I'd collaborated with at FM and this forum over the last five years. Part of that agreement was that they would produce TT&F instead of me, so I could fully focus on the design project.

Yes I understand the process. But do you understand how this put FM-Britain in a position where they were given an unfair advantage over all other fansites, and increased their commercial value to enormous heights in comparisons to the rest of the scene?

As I said, if you would have been affiliated with another site, they would have done the TT instead, giving them the same advantage.

And this is what's shady to me. Instead of favouring FM-Britain, even though you knew them and so on, the TT should have been developed under the SI name, as an official guide....rather than being a guide that FM-Britain takes credit for, as if they are the official fansite of Football Manager.

Nobody has been paid a cent for this work.

But that's not true. Sure, you might not have received cash in your hand for it, but that doesn't mean you haven't been paid for it somehow. The TT generates massive traffic to the site, and the bills have to be paid somehow. Instead of you having to pay for server costs, I'm sure the traffic generated alone could pay for server costs. Just put one Google ad up there and it's covered.

FMB has only ever sold one piece of key content over the 7 odd years it has been in existence. It has never asked for donations, nor offered premium membership, as some other sites do.

Well comon...if a site like Susie would have a stickied thread on the official forum with content that is claimed to be official, and is unique as no one else would be able to produce it....they wouldn't need premium memberships either. That's the issue I'm talking about here...other sites are forced to offer premium memberships or ask for donations in order to keep afloat, but FM-Britain doesn't need to, as they're favoured above everyone else.

I fully understand that you're defensive about "your" site, whatever capacity you have there...I would be too.

But...

...if SI approached me about re-designing the whole attributes panel, to re-define how it works and what every attribute does in the match engine....I wouldn't involve the fansite I'm affiliated with, for several reasons:

1. It would be viewed as clear favouritism from SI, and would distance that fansite from the rest of the scene.

2. Such information is way too big for one fansite to claim, the description of it should be written into an official guide.

3. I would be in a position where I can abuse my inside knowledge and propel any fansite I wish to massive levels, as no one else would be able to produce a guide for it - I'm the only one who knows what every attribute does. And such knowledge is too big for any third party to "own".

Its business model was only about producing high quality written content that supported tactical theories developed through the 8 editions of TT&F, which they hoped could be plugged back into development. That's now not going to happen.

As I said before, there are plenty of people who would be willing to continue doing the TT if FM-Britain can't handle their priorities and find time enough to put into the FM scene. People who would gladly put all the time in the world into it. But that would mean that you would have to give them the information they need, which in turn would make FM-Britain weaker in the FM scene....and somehow I don't think that's something you want.

Right now it seems as if you're saying that if FM-Britain can't do it, no one else will either. FM-B is holding all the cards, and would rather see no TT11, than a TT11 made by someone else. That's another shady part to this whole thing.

[dankrzyz]

FMB's disagreement with SI doesn't stop TT&F being the most useful document for tactics in FM10 and FM11.

Yes, exactly.

It's a very useful guide. Period. There are many other useful guides and threads in the FM community, too. No one holds all the cards or has a monopoly on providing sound, detailed information on how to best achieve tactical effects or success in Football Manager. Everyone is able and encouraged to share their opinions on FM tactics, whether on this forum or on their own fansites. The author's reputation for being insightful, relevant, and useful is the only measure of worth.

Beyond that, Mantralux, I think your argument is trying to get at something else, some point well outside of the usefulness of a guide for this game. If there is history, it's been clearly settled and those parties have moved on. If you insist on continuing to speculate and confront, I have to read it as simple forums trolling.

[Jenko_EFC]

I agree with mantralux mostly. FM-B has distanced itself from the rest of the community by charging for a guide. I also understand wwfan's argument, if I wrote in the quality and quantity that he and FM-B do/did, then I'd have to give plenty of my time up. I'm 20 years of age, I don't want to write FM guides all the time when I have a social life and exams and stuff like that. Perhaps wwfan has the same problem. He is passionatte about FM and writing about FM, as am I but I don't have the time to write the guides I could and haven't been as active lately purely for this reason.

However, I would never want to make money out of writing about FM, it is my passion. When I joined this site, I read Cleon's threads which introduced me to the Analysis page and his Tactics. I read about SFraser's Training threads and Formation threads which made me even more passionnatte about FM and real-life football. If I had to charge to view them, I wouldn't and consequently, never would have became passionnatte about it in the first place. I don't have the time to write the things I'm capable of but others who do need to be introduced to these threads and forums who will write this kind of stuff and become passionnatte and we get a never-ending supply of tactical writers. If we had to charge for that though, it would be a different story.

[dankrzyz]

So, about the actual document and the tactical insight it provides...

[mantralux]

Beyond that, Mantralux, I think your argument is trying to get at something else

I've been clear about my intentions in this thread; I'm questioning the unfair advantage FM-Britain has gained in the FM scene.

[dankrzyz]

I've been clear about my intentions in this thread; I'm questioning the unfair advantage FM-Britain has gained in the FM scene.

Neither tactical nor relevant to the thread.

[mantralux]

Neither tactical nor relevant to the thread.

Of course it's relevant to the thread, the thread is about the guide.

[dankrzyz]

Of course it's relevant to the thread, the thread is about the guide.

And the guide is about Football Manager and football tactics. That's all.

[Jenko_EFC]

The guide was made by FM-B, we are having a discussion about FM-B and the guide they are selling. It doesn't get anymore relevant than that.

[Maviarab.]

This peaked me.

As the owner of one site (makes zero money and no ads) and the co-owner of another site (is a licensed NfPO with ads), I have to question one particular comment (and to be quite frank, I don't really care whether the thread is stickied or not, as the TT guide is very useful)...

But:

"They did not have the time to contribute, write, whatever, so decided to come up with a business model."

Can wwfan please explain how charging would suddenly 'give them the time' to do what they seemingly couldn't before.....unless they were going to make a profit and earn a living off the site? (which then is not 'just' covering costs is it?) Sorry, but it doesn't add up. And your own arguments contradict themselves.

Bottom line here is, wwfan is defending his actions, he has every right too, and its a natural instinct. But everything mantra has said is very valid...

[mantralux]

wwfan, shouldn't you replace this sticky with a sticky about the new guide that came out (Ultimate FM2011 Walkthrough Guide), as it's superior to this one?

[wwfan]

Can wwfan please explain how charging would suddenly 'give them the time' to do what they seemingly couldn't before.....unless they were going to make a profit and earn a living off the site? (which then is not 'just' covering costs is it?) Sorry, but it doesn't add up. And your own arguments contradict themselves.

I've gone through this time and time again. The two key writers (Millie and myself) are both doing PhDs. I also work for the university and have my own business. Millie also does some university work and is involved in running a number of online projects. We both also have families. The only way we could justify the time spent to write any new guides to our families would be to cut back on some of our money earning activities. In order to do so, we'd need to cover lost earnings. I can't talk for Millie, but I already get enough hassle for being involved with FM as it is. I made the decision a long time ago to focus on other FM-related activities. Millie hoped to keep TT&F going but cannot justify it anymore.

We both get thoroughly upset with all these accusations of greed. Between us we have produced 11 strategy guides (downloaded, since we started counting for FM09, over a million times), two internet sites, numerous pod and webcasts and designed the Tactics Creator, not to mention the copious articles and threads we've written and managed over the years. Until the recent release of CPW, of which I payed no part, neither of us has ever made a penny from these activities. Indeed, they often hinder other opportunities for financial gain as they take up so much time. Our motivation has always been to help FM players and, more recently, help the game develop. We've never tried to play 'scene' type games. We've just focused on doing what we love and on doing it well. However, all good things come to an end and lack of time was getting the better of us. Millie and Jordan came up with a plan that would enable us to continue producing guides and supporting other aspects of FM without negatively influencing other areas of our lives. Unfortunately, SI didn't accept the proposals and we have moved onto other things. What does grate is this constant sniping that we've somehow taken unfair advantage of the relationship we have developed through this hard work and are using it to manipulate the FM-universe. We've worked damn hard, for free, and continue to do so in less obvious ways. The only thing this thread does is link people to the results of that hard work and the relationship with SI, which was done with their full blessing.

wwfan, shouldn't you replace this sticky with a sticky about the new guide that came out (Ultimate FM2011 Walkthrough Guide), as it's superior to this one?

Unlike TT&F, which has been free for all 9 editions, you have to pay for it. Linking to it would contravene SI's policies. I also have to find the time to read it to see just how good it is. I have a lot of time for the author's posts, but it is not a companion piece to the Tactics Creator, which is what TT&F10 most undoubtedly is. It might, therefore, not fit the scope of this forum.

[crouchaldinho]

wwfan, shouldn't you replace this sticky with a sticky about the new guide that came out (Ultimate FM2011 Walkthrough Guide), as it's superior to this one?

I really doubt that it is!

[thebluenosebear]

Its not in the least, I bought it last week mainly as it sold itself as a step by step guide to the whole game which its not it's more a 'these functions do this' not tactical guide at all and if you've played the game like myself since CM2 Scottish/Italian edition don't bother with it.

[mantralux]

I really doubt that it is!

If not, it's obviously because it didn't have the (unfair) advantage of inside information.

[RobinGoodey]

Oh seriously - grow up and get off your soap box. Geez....

[Lord Rowell]

As often happens, issues are getting mixed up here.

I think, in all honesty, this thread should be unpinned. Firstly, because of the issues re. FM Britain ad secondly, because it is out of date.

This of course doesn't mean that this pinned thread should be replaced with another e.g. Ultimate FM2011 Walkthrough Guide, if there is a charge for that, as it raises the same concerns as with FM Britain.

Just because you get it wrong once (which you did, SI) doesn't mean you have to get it wrong twice. Not affiliating is the correct approach, IMHO

[crouchaldinho]

As often happens, issues are getting mixed up here.

I think, in all honesty, this thread should be unpinned. Firstly, because of the issues re. FM Britain ad secondly, because it is out of date.

This document has nothing to do with the subsequent issues that FM Britain brought upon themselves by charging for another (totally different) guide. This guide is free so there is no issue at all.

Also, TT&F '10 is not at all out of date. Nothing has changed in terms of the Tactics Creator and everything in this document in terms of football ideas is still totally valid. This is still the best guide to creating tactics for FM out there. There is nothing out there to compare to it. This is the guide that people need to read.

This of course doesn't mean that this pinned thread should be replaced with another e.g. Ultimate FM2011 Walkthrough Guide, if there is a charge for that, as it raises the same concerns as with FM Britain.

That and it's a far inferior document. I'm judging from their previous material and also comments from other people who have been silly enough to buy it.

You won't get any better than TT&F '10, which is free to download and the best guide out there.

[RBarlow]

Thanks!

I'm new to the whole tactics side of the game, I usually just stick to picking my team and hoping for the best.

I have only recently started using this section of the forums due to the increased difficulty of the game and I have to say TT10 is a great read and it has broght me instant success.

I look forward to sharing my successful tactics in the future.

edit: would just like to add my success is on FM2011 for those that feel TT10 is out of date, meh!

[rolo]

Can this bring you sucess on FM11 as it was made for FM10?

[crouchaldinho]

Short answer: yes.

[ivans]

should this go straight on to word coz it dont seem to do that for me... if there has been anything posted to this i aint seen it

[nottmlad69]

I love the "TacticalTheorems10Appendix" section showing the different tactics and formations. Would love to see an updated version with even more famous and more recent tactics i.e Mourinho with Inter and for past tactics do the Brian Clough with Forest 2-3-5 counter tactic

[ArsenalFan7]

Great guide.

Especially enjoyed the Appendix page.

The total football tactic is just about perfect for my squad and is one of the best tactics I've ever had the pleasure of using

[ivans]

what program do u need for it to work?

[Wonderkid.]

This document has nothing to do with the subsequent issues that FM Britain brought upon themselves by charging for another (totally different) guide. This guide is free so there is no issue at all.

Also, TT&F '10 is not at all out of date. Nothing has changed in terms of the Tactics Creator and everything in this document in terms of football ideas is still totally valid. This is still the best guide to creating tactics for FM out there. There is nothing out there to compare to it. This is the guide that people need to read.

That and it's a far inferior document. I'm judging from their previous material and also comments from other people who have been silly enough to buy it.

You won't get any better than TT&F '10, which is free to download and the best guide out there.

What previous material? No offence, but your last two sentences are founded on hear-say, which is a ridiculous way to offer advice. The Ultimate FM Walkthrough Guide is not a far inferior document at all. TT&F covers only tactics, TUFMWG covers tactics, training, team-talks, scouting and a lot, lot more –– so how it can be inferior is beyond me. TUFMWG is without a doubt, the most complete guide ever written about this game, and I'm quite sure if you'd read it you'd not be saying what you've said there.

I've sent a copy to wwfan, so we'll see what he says about the guide (if he has the time to reply). Millie (the other TT&F author) has already read it and he was so happy with it, he's agreed to get involved and help develop it like he did with wwfan on TT&F.

For the record, I have no qualms saying that TT&F is a fantastic document; I've said the same thing at the end of my own guide. I completely endorse TT&F as the best TACTICS guide around at the moment, without question. However, I cannot say it's the best guide around because it's not. This game is reliant on much more than tactics and TT&F covers none of that information (not that you'd expect it to anyway, it's a tactics guide –– which is why the comparison is ridiculous).

That's all I will say on the matter, I don't need the drama. I've read a lot of your posts and I respect the effort you put in on these forums. I'm even willing to send you a copy to review, that's how confident I am that you'd be happy with it.

Regards,

W.

[crouchaldinho]

For the record, I have no qualms saying that TT&F is a fantastic document; I've said the same thing at the end of my own guide. I completely endorse TT&F as the best TACTICS guide around at the moment, without question. However, I cannot say it's the best guide around because it's not. This game is reliant on much more than tactics and TT&F covers none of that information (not that you'd expect it to anyway, it's a tactics guide –– which is why the comparison is ridiculous).

It's important to note the context of my post. I was responding to an individual who felt that your guide should replace T&T '10 as a sticky thread in the tactics forum. I stick by what I said above, which is that this guide (T&T '10) 'is still the best guide to creating tactics for FM out there. There is nothing out there to compare to it. This [T&T '10] is the guide that people need to read'.

I will admit that my final comments in the post that you have quoted are biased by the fact that you are charging for your guide. I really do believe that there is absolutely no need for anyone to purchase your guide. I would strongly recommend that any FMers looking for a guide do not pay for any guide as there is simply no need. They will find all of the information that they need on these forums for free and, I'm sorry, but I really do believe that it will likely be superior material as well because it is written by fans of the game who have been writing free guides since early incarnations of FM and have been involved in a great deal of personal research over the years.

I see that you are pulling the old FM Britain trick and advertising the fact that you are beta testers on your adverts. I would hope that you will be removed from beta testing the game as soon as possible (if you haven't already been removed).

I've no intention of dragging this out into an argument or discussion of any kind, so I'll leave it there. I do have no hesitation in recommending T&T '10 to any FMer as the best tactics guide around. Anyone looking for further guides should check the Unofficial Tactics Bible as a priority. If anyone is struggling with the game, I would advise that they post up a thread and ask any questions that they may have; they will receive a free answer and lots of support on this forum. Finally, if anyone wants a guide to something specific (e.g. team talks or something of the sort) then please feel free to PM me or post here and I would be happy to recommend my favourite free material on the game. You name it, it's been covered on these forums, and I most likely have it bookmarked and have probably even contributed to the thread too! That's what an FM community should be about: sharing knowledge for free and for the love of the game. There is so much excellent free material for this game that there is absolutely no need to pay for anything.

[Bruce Higham]

Absolutely no need to pay for anything, apart from the game that is. (which I am happy to pay )

I thought you were working for SI wwfan with the tactics creator?

By the way wwfan, did you know that the iPad wants to change your name to Satan - joke

[Aquaplex]

I've purchased the Ultimate guide and i wouldn't say it's superior to T&T. It's different in its approach but i wouldn't say it's superior.

[robin.v.persie]

The download page just takes me to the home page of FM-Britain

[Blue_magic]

I can't even download the old ebook

[SirCliveWolfe]

What ever you think about this guide, the fact that SI has done nothing to sort out that TC in FM11, proves that this game has moved away from being a Football Smiulation to a crass comercial product.

Unfortunatley FM is still the best game on the market, but you can not even get players to play where you want to on the pitch... CM01/02 with a 2D engine would be a vastley superiour game.

[crouchaldinho]

What ever you think about this guide, the fact that SI has done nothing to sort out that TC in FM11, proves that this game has moved away from being a Football Smiulation to a crass comercial product.

What does that mean? Sort out the TC how?

I share your disappointment if you mean that SI haven't looked to further develop the TC after FM10. I was really hoping for them to take on board some new ideas, develop the options available and work on customisation!

For me personally, the tactics and training side of the game should be the core aspect and the most important part of FM. Therefore, it's a big disappointment for me that more work doesn't go into these aspects for every version. That's just my opinion though and I know others might enjoy the 3D, match prep and agents etc. that seem to be more important to SI at this time.

[m83]

Hi Crouchaldinho,

Im a fan of the "ItalianWay of Play", and i have read your treads of the 4-3-1-2 formation and the Xmas Tree, and im still enabled of replicating the Style of play of A.C. Milan this year, and i wanted to know how would you replicate it, since they have been playing in a 4-1-2-1-2, whit Van Bommel in front of the DCs whit Gatusso and Flamini in the MCR and MCL, and also Robinho in the AMC sllot but drifting in the Left and Pato more in the Right pitch but in the same line of Zlatan who seems to play in the center of the attack.

I have read the "trequ, seconda punta and prima punta" article but i can seem to translate it in the in game, and dont if the TC Rloles nedd some kind of tweaks.

Thanks for any help that you can provide and sorry for my poor english.

[eddymunster]

Having struggled massively adapt my favoured 4-3-3 to patch 11.3 I was getting to my wits end with my lone striker averaging ratings around 6.3 and scoring no more than 1 in 8ish games. I decided to download this, settled in to my chair and read through it and then set to work re-building my 4-3-3 from scratch in the TC. Since doing this my attitude towards the ME, TC & tactical understanding has improved massively. I now see how a couple of changes to player roles or attacking/defensive mentality can have a massive effect. For instance my lone striker was under performing because he was constantly isolated with his attack duty set, a simple change to support duty brings him into play, links the attack & midfield, improves possession and quality of chances created. I now see that small changes like this can make or break a tactic.

After reading this guide, admittedly it is early days, I have played 3, conceded 0 and scored 10 (my problematic striker getting 4 in 3). This obviously could be luck, but the stats have improved, the overall style of play has improved and the individual ratings have massively improved across the board so I think I may be onto something.

I also now am starting to grasp the value of touchline shouts, I now trust the TC instead of manually adjusting sliders all over the place and most importantly I no longer have the niggling feeling that the ME is out to get me.

I will no doubt report back in a few days with stories of how my new found tactical set up has fallen to pieces and that the ME is broken and unrealistic:o, but for now cheers for this great guide guys, keep up the good work!

[wwfan]

Having struggled massively adapt my favoured 4-3-3 to patch 11.3 I was getting to my wits end with my lone striker averaging ratings around 6.3 and scoring no more than 1 in 8ish games. I decided to download this, settled in to my chair and read through it and then set to work re-building my 4-3-3 from scratch in the TC. Since doing this my attitude towards the ME, TC & tactical understanding has improved massively. I now see how a couple of changes to player roles or attacking/defensive mentality can have a massive effect. For instance my lone striker was under performing because he was constantly isolated with his attack duty set, a simple change to support duty brings him into play, links the attack & midfield, improves possession and quality of chances created. I now see that small changes like this can make or break a tactic.

After reading this guide, admittedly it is early days, I have played 3, conceded 0 and scored 10 (my problematic striker getting 4 in 3). This obviously could be luck, but the stats have improved, the overall style of play has improved and the individual ratings have massively improved across the board so I think I may be onto something.

I also now am starting to grasp the value of touchline shouts, I now trust the TC instead of manually adjusting sliders all over the place and most importantly I no longer have the niggling feeling that the ME is out to get me.

I will no doubt report back in a few days with stories of how my new found tactical set up has fallen to pieces and that the ME is broken and unrealistic:o, but for now cheers for this great guide guys, keep up the good work!

Thanks for that. Stories like these were the motivation for writing TT&F over the years. Time permitting, they will be again