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Justified

My FM10 Resolution - Training

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Hi all. Nice to see the T&T forum buzzing again with the new release literally a week away. This year I've decided to make myself a resolution. For every release of CM/FM I have always used someone else's training schedules. Reason is because I've always been more interested in the tactical side of the game. However have had a really good understanding of the FM09 tactics, I'm fairly confident it won't change much in FM10. So what I wanted to do this year is concentrate on creating good solid training schedules.

Now I've always felt I have a general understanding on how the attributes within training work and after reading various threads on the forum and others (FM Britain amongst others) I've gotten more information about how it all works. More or less anyway :D

Clicks - Clicks - Clicks

As I have understood it there is a few set click numbers, sort of like the Rule of One for tactics, which determine diffrent things within training. Those numbers are "7-9-11-13-19". 7 Being the lowest you can train a players and 19 the highest before it becomes more about speed of attribute raising. This is what I have understood them to be:

Click No.7 (Position 8) - As I said, lowest notch of training before attributes declined with rapid pace. On click 7 the players attrbutes will decline but slowely over the season.

Click No.9 (Position 10) - For players who play week in and week out this would be a maintain level. For players who don't play attributes will decline but even slower then click No.7.

Click No.11 (Position 12) - Maintain for all players, attributes will neither fall or go up. Not totally sure if attributes will raise for players who play week in and week out because Click No.9 is their maintain level.

Click No.13 (Position 14) - Lowest click to make attributes go up.

Click No.19 (Position 20) - Highest click before highes positions make attributes increase with speed rather then amount of attribute "points" gained.

Strength and Aerobics

What I have understood about Str + Aer is that it causes most injuries if it's set quite high during the season (possibly not for goalkeepers) and shouldn't be set higher then click No.13. My thinking is that you could get away with having click No.11 for most schedules as it should maintain whatever attributes fall under that category. There is an exception though. Any players under the age of 21-23 should still be developing those attributes so they'd need seperate schedules so they still improve on those ratings.

However setting Click No.11 for most schedules would force the user to select quite a heavy physical pre-season to get attrbiutes up for the rest of the season. You can get away with having low technical training during the pre-season because they are attributes you train and improve during the season.

Training Wrong Attributes

The problem with downloading schedules is that most of the have a general training for all positions and was usually the intention the creator had was for his own tactics. But don't be mistaken, training and tactics sort of go hand in hand. A training schedules for a wide-midfielder would be different from a training schedule for a winger. A wide-midfielder concentrates more on crossing and passing whereas the winger concentrates more on improving his ball control skills as he will be required to run with the ball often.

The same goes for attacking and defensive MC's/FC's fullbacks/wingbacks etc etc. There's no point in training something that doesn't really benefit the way you play. Also it's important to make sure you are training suffuciently enough in the relevant areas. Sometimes I'm really shocked when looking at some of the downloadable schedules where it'll have really high shooting for a striker but really low training for tactics. So basically you training the striker to shoot but not training him to get into position to shoot.

Hopefully in this thread, up to the release of FM10, I'm going to create schedules to suit most if not all player types. Everything from a sweeper keeper to poacher up front. Obviously if any of the better experienced on the subject want to contribute that would be great.

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First position I want to cover is the goalkeeping position. There are two diffrent roles that you can train. Regular Goalkeeper and Sweeper Keeper. The latter is for goalkeepers who are better coming off their line and is more comfortabel on the ball and generally is played behind a high defensive line. Most users will be using regular goalkeepers as it concentrates on the most important attributes for goalkeepers.

What we have to do first is break down the key attributes for goalkeepers and then link them with what trains what within the game. So here goals. Red = Key Orange = Important

Important Attributes - Aerial Ability, Command of Area, Handling, 1on1, Reflexes, Decisions, Positioning, Agility

Now we look at what trains what within the game:

Strength : Stamina, Strength, Natural Fitness

Aerobic : Acceleration, Agility, Balance, Jumping, Pace, Reflexes

Goalkeeping : Aerial Ability, Handling, Kicking, 1on1, Throwing

Tactics : Anticipation, Command of Area, Communication, Decisions, Positioning, Rushing Out

Ball Control : First Touch, Technique

Set Peices : Free Kick Taking

As you can see we have three diffrent areas which we must concentrate on. Aerobic, Goalkeeping and Tactics to get the best out of the important attributes that the goalkeeper needs. A lot of users would say Strength is important for a goalkeeper to be dominant in the box. True but you can make heavier pre-season schedule for a keeper to try and improve and then maintain during the season.

For a sweeper keeper more attributes need to be considered -

Important Attributes - Aerial Ability, Command of Area, Communication, Handling, Reflexes, Rushing Out, First Touch, Technique, Decisions, Positioning, Agility, Pace, Acceleration

Strength : Stamina, Strength, Natural Fitness

Aerobic : Acceleration, Agility, Balance, Jumping, Pace, Reflexes

Goalkeeping : Aerial Ability, Handling, Kicking, 1on1, Throwing

Tactics : Anticipation, Command of Area, Communication, Decisions, Positioning, Rushing Out

Ball Control : First Touch, Technique

Set Peices : Free Kick Taking

So I've come up with this -

keepers.png

Off-season I'll be pumping up the strength to make the goalkeeper stronger and then during the season thi sschedul should be able to maintain whatever he gains in Strength, Stamina and Natural Fitness.

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Good OP Justified :thup:

I really want to get into training this year, so will pay close attention to this thread.. ;)

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Good OP Justified :thup:

I really want to get into training this year, so will pay close attention to this thread.. ;)

Well I hope I can be of service. I admit that I'm not the best at training but I know how I want my players to train. Just need to translate it into the game.

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As much as I like your post there is a major weaknes in it. Concentration is an all important GK attribute, and with noo focus on defending it will decline rapidly. To leave that attribute out when your talking about important attributes is a big miss as a low concentration attribute will mean more howlers.

Also to reach the maximum training level a GK should be trained at shooting and attacking to.

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Interesting to see that you mention the clicks on the slider when setting the training intensity. I did a check on normal training vs youth training. For youth schedules you have about 2/3 of the clicks to spend compared to normal schedules. This means that one single click in a youth schedule increases the overall workload slider more than one click on a normal schedule.

When designing youth schedules I use the normal ones but reduces them with 1/3 of the clicks. Example: The strikers have click 16(first high) for shooting on normal schedules. The clicks for a youth schedule for strikers would be around 10 or 11. This is done with all seven schedules, one for each position. In long term this means that all players are trained to suit their roles/positions within the system.

Have anyone else tried it this way. This is what gives me the best results for developing youth players.

Also for GK training, I never train other training categorises than strength, aerobic, GK, tactics and slightly less ballcontrol. If you go into a players profile, choose training, then attributes and lastly pick training category. You will find that there is only the set-pieces training category that is listed there, apart from the ones already mentioned. I take this as a hint from the creators of the game, that GK training in these categories is not needed. Does anyone have proof of something else?

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Also for GK training, I never train other training categorises than strength, aerobic, GK, tactics and slightly less ballcontrol. If you go into a players profile, choose training, then attributes and lastly pick training category. You will find that there is only the set-pieces training category that is listed there, apart from the ones already mentioned. I take this as a hint from the creators of the game, that GK training in these categories is not needed. Does anyone have proof of something else?

That is why I didn't include it in my GK training schedules. Veg pointed out I'd missed Concentration as valuable attribute. Actually when I was writing them down as key but there is no training to train a goalkeepers concentration.

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Fantastic thread and great insight Justified.

I have never understood how training in FM works, can't wait the info on rest of the positions.

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Will be interested to see what you decide to do when it comes to the other positions where they require more attributes and therefore training in more categories.

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That is why I didn't include it in my GK training schedules. Veg pointed out I'd missed Concentration as valuable attribute. Actually when I was writing them down as key but there is no training to train a goalkeepers concentration.

I've read that post to, but as several others that has tested the training feature quite heavily has pointed out that you need to train all levels to reach the maximum training levels. Wich is essential to develop your CA efficient. The point with faeron is a bit miss. You need to train the defensive schedule to get the concentration attribute trained. I do not agree with Faeron who means the developers say you don't need it, I'm pretty sure think SI want a realistic game wich means that GK needs concentration. Also if you olay with a GK with low concentration you will realize this.

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The question has to be asked then, if SI feel concentration is important, why is there no defence training on the standard goalkeeper training regime? Surely SI would set the goalkeeper training up to a decent standard to give you an indication of what is required. It is then down to you to tweak it slightly. The outfield regime is totally seperate and hence why it is generic and can apply to any and all positions.

How much does concentration improve with defence training? I could imagine it being ignored slightly as training the rest of defence attributes could be considered a waste.

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When playing FM2009 I never experienced any problems with low concentration with the GK`s. I admit that I haven`t been hanging around to much on the forum, but for me it seems that Veg is basing his thoughts on assumptions. When someone can present evidence that shows his thoughts are correct, then I will accept I am wrong. Untill then I will respect Veg`s opinion, even though I am not to sure you are correct.

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When playing FM2009 I never experienced any problems with low concentration with the GK`s. I admit that I haven`t been hanging around to much on the forum, but for me it seems that Veg is basing his thoughts on assumptions. When someone can present evidence that shows his thoughts are correct, then I will accept I am wrong. Untill then I will respect Veg`s opinion, even though I am not to sure you are correct.

Veg is correct, according to my own experience of playing FM. And Composure has not been brought up yet, which is another issue.

When goalkeeper's do not train in the defending category, their Concentration drops. Roughly 1 point in the first season.

Same with Composure, which requires training in the shooting category.

I've pointed this out in the wish-list and asked SI to move Gk Concentration and Gk Composure to a training category like Goalkeeping. OR, to change the default Goalkeeper training schedule to include a bit of defending and shooting, as I feel that these two attributes are important ones for keepers.

It bugs me that these two attributes drop unless you use defending and shooting, which you really shouldn't for a keeper.

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Any more on this? Great start to the thread, would be interesting to see where you take this.

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Any more on this? Great start to the thread, would be interesting to see where you take this.

There will be more coming, I've just been running some tests I guess you can say just monitoring the players attributes in terms of increase and decrease. I'll hopefully be able to post during the week, work permitting so everyone following the thread please bare with me. :)

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Well, we could carry it on for ourselves, if Justified doesn't mind. Let us consider the wide defender positions. There are two roles for these: Full-Back and Wing-Back. The Tactics Creator suggests these as the important attributes for the two roles:

Full-Back: Crossing, Marking, Tackling, Anticipation, Concentration, Positioning, Teamwork, Work Rate, Acceleration, Stamina

Wing-Back: Crossing, Dribbling, Marking, Tackling, Decisions, Positioning, Teamwork, Work Rate, Acceleration, Stamina

Now DJWillster tells us that Training categories match as follows: (Red attributes are vital for full-backs, blue for wing-backs and purple for both.)

Strength - Natural fitness, stamina, strength and work rate.

Aerobic - Acceleration, agility, balance, jumping, pace and reflexes.

Goalkeeping - Aerial Ability, handling, kicking, throwing and one-on-ones.

Tactics - Anticipation, decisions, positioning, team work and command of area.

Ball Control – Dribbling, first touch, technique, flair and heading.

Defending - Tackling, marking and concentration.

Attacking - Passing and creativity.

Shooting - Finishing, long shots and composure.

Set-Pieces - Crossing, corners, free kicks, penalty taking and long throws.

This suggests that both positions want really heavy training on Tactics and Defending, with Strength a close third. Aerobic, Set-Pieces, Aerobic and (for wing-backs) Ball Control want moderate training, with little time spent on Attacking or Shooting.

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On to central defenders. Now this is an interesting one: the critical attributes change not only with role, but also with duty. The following are critical attributes with Defend duties:

Limited Defender, Defend: Marking, Tackling, Determination, Positioning, Jumping, Strength

Central Defender, Defend: Heading, Marking, Tackling, Composure, Concentration, Decisions, Determination, Positioning, Jumping, Strength

Ball Playing Defender, Defend: Heading, Marking, Passing, Tackling, Technique, Composure, Concentration, Creativity, Decisions, Determination, Positioning, Jumping, Strength

In addition, Stopper duties require Aggression and Bravery, while Cover duties require Anticipation and Acceleration.

Thus (purple for all types of centre-backs, blue for central defenders and ball-playing defenders, and light blue for ball-playing defenders only):

Strength - Natural fitness, stamina, strength and work rate.

Aerobic - Acceleration, agility, balance, jumping, pace and reflexes.

Goalkeeping - Aerial Ability, handling, kicking, throwing and one-on-ones.

Tactics - Anticipation, decisions, positioning, team work and command of area.

Ball Control – Dribbling, first touch, technique, flair and heading.

Defending - Tackling, marking and concentration.

Attacking - Passing and creativity.

Shooting - Finishing, long shots and composure.

Set-Pieces - Crossing, corners, free kicks, penalty taking and long throws

Again, Defending is the biggie, with Tactics a close second. Strength and Aerobic are universally moderately useful (Aerobic should be higher for defenders on Cover duty). That's pretty much all a Limited Defender needs to focus on.

A Central Defender also needs to train at Strength/Aerobic levels in Ball Control and Shooting; a Ball-Playing defender needs more extensive training still in Ball Control and extensive training in Attacking.

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Defensive Midfielders:

Anchor Man: Heading, Marking, Tackling, Anticipation, Concentration, Decisions, Determination, Positioning, Work Rate, Strength

Defensive Midfielder, Defend: Marking, Tackling, Concentration, Decisions, Positioning, Teamwork, Work Rate, Acceleration, Stamina, Strength

Defensive Midfielder, Support: Marking, Passing, Tackling, Decisions, Positioning, Teamwork, Work Rate, Acceleration, Stamina, Strength

Deep-Lying Playmaker, Defend: Marking, Passing, Tackling, Technique, Composure, Creativity, Decisions, Positioning, Teamwork, Strength

Deep-Lying Playmaker, Support: First Touch, Passing, Tackling, Technique, Composure, Creativity, Decisions, Off The Ball, Positioning, Teamwork

That's five different types of players, and to make it more manageable, I'll split by duty for the training schedules.

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The problem with making schedules for specific positions is that you'll be using generic schedules rather then focusing on a players weakness. Say for instance you have a DMC who has high attributes in tackling, positioning and marking already but has bad passing skills. Would you not then "sacrifice" a few clicks of defensive training for attacking training to try and "re-distribute" attributes into areas to make him a better all-rounder?

I personally try to look at the players individually and improve where lacking and maintain those attributes that are already good.

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Defensive Midfielders on Defensive Duty:

Anchor Man: Heading, Marking, Tackling, Anticipation, Concentration, Decisions, Determination, Positioning, Work Rate, Strength

Defensive Midfielder, Defend: Marking, Tackling, Concentration, Decisions, Positioning, Teamwork, Work Rate, Acceleration, Stamina, Strength

Deep-Lying Playmaker, Defend: Marking, Passing, Tackling, Technique, Composure, Creativity, Decisions, Positioning, Teamwork, Strength

(Red for Anchor Man only, Yellow for Defensive Midfielder only, Blue for Deep-Lying Playmaker only. The appropriate secondary colours for attributes applying to two; Brown for all three.)

Strength - Natural fitness, stamina, strength and work rate.

Aerobic - Acceleration, agility, balance, jumping, pace and reflexes.

Goalkeeping - Aerial Ability, handling, kicking, throwing and one-on-ones.

Tactics - Anticipation, decisions, positioning, team work and command of area.

Ball Control – Dribbling, first touch, technique, flair and heading.

Defending - Tackling, marking and concentration.

Attacking - Passing and creativity.

Shooting - Finishing, long shots and composure.

Set-Pieces - Crossing, corners, free kicks, penalty taking and long throws

So Defending and Tactics will be heavily trained for all these roles, while Shooting and Set-Pieces need only minimal training.

Apart from this, Defensive Midfielders should focus on Strength and Aerobic, Anchor Men on Strength and Ball Control, and Deep-Lying Playmakers on Ball Control and Attacking.

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DMs on Support Duty

Defensive Midfielder, Support: Marking, Passing, Tackling, Decisions, Positioning, Teamwork, Work Rate, Acceleration, Stamina, Strength

Deep-Lying Playmaker, Support: First Touch, Passing, Tackling, Technique, Composure, Creativity, Decisions, Off The Ball, Positioning, Teamwork

Colours as before:

Strength - Natural fitness, stamina, strength and work rate.

Aerobic - Acceleration, agility, balance, jumping, pace and reflexes.

Goalkeeping - Aerial Ability, handling, kicking, throwing and one-on-ones.

Tactics - Anticipation, decisions, positioning, team work and command of area.

Ball Control – Dribbling, first touch, technique, flair and heading.

Defending - Tackling, marking and concentration.

Attacking - Passing and creativity.

Shooting - Finishing, long shots and composure.

Set-Pieces - Crossing, corners, free kicks, penalty taking and long throws

Two very different sets of training needed here:

Defensive Midfielder needs heavy investment in Strength, Tactics and Defending, with slightly less in Aerobic and Attacking.

Deep-Lying Playmaker needs heavy investment in Tactics, Ball Control and Attacking, with slightly less in Defending and Shooting.

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To get the most out of your training I still think you need a schedule for each player. Every player will have their own strengths and weaknesses which will need a different level of training to maintain or increase as necessary. For instance if a defender has high attributes in Marking, tackling and Concentration you might be better off setting a lower level of defending training to a 'maintain' level and increasing workload elsewhere.

Secondly (and this comes from the Closer look at training thread) its worth considering that every player has their own maximum training workload before becoming unhappy, therefore what suits one player may be too high or low a workload for another player.

Of course separate schedules for each player requires a lot of time and effort spent in this area of the game, and the schedules you're putting together will still create a good player with attributes in the right area, it might just take a bit longer to do so.

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To get the most out of your training I still think you need a schedule for each player. Every player will have their own strengths and weaknesses which will need a different level of training to maintain or increase as necessary. For instance if a defender has high attributes in Marking, tackling and Concentration you might be better off setting a lower level of defending training to a 'maintain' level and increasing workload elsewhere.

Secondly (and this comes from the Closer look at training thread) its worth considering that every player has their own maximum training workload before becoming unhappy, therefore what suits one player may be too high or low a workload for another player.

Of course separate schedules for each player requires a lot of time and effort spent in this area of the game, and the schedules you're putting together will still create a good player with attributes in the right area, it might just take a bit longer to do so.

I tend to ignore that and try and keep their motivation up in other areas. I've always felt it's unfair for one player to train more or less then everyone else. So yes it's a personal preference and Robinho just needs a smack for saying he's unhappy with a medium levelled training. :D

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To all those contributing to this thread, I'd like to run an idea here for your comment. I've borrowed from Post 20 as an example.

Strength - Natural fitness, stamina, strength and work rate.

Aerobic - Acceleration, agility, balance, jumping, pace and reflexes.

Say we want to improve the two attributes shown in purple, strength and jumping, for a given player.

The strength attribute is in the Strength category along with three other attributes making a total category size of four. Jumping is in the Aerobic category along with 5 other attributes making a total category size of six.

My idea is that in order to improve both strength and jumping by, let's say, a single point then the schedule should be set to train the Aerobic category at a higher level than the Strength category. The rationale is that the Aerobic training effort is split six ways whereas the Strength effort is split only four ways.

Expressing this in a mathematical sense, to improve the strength and jumping attributes by the same amount, the Aerobic training category should be set (6/4 = 1.5) 50% higher than the Strength category.

Let me just explain this a bit further. I don't mean Strength on notch 10 and Aerobic on notch 15. If we take Justified's info. from the OP and say that position 12 is the 'maintain' level, if we want to improve the strength and jumping attributes by the same amount then we would/should set the Strength category to position 14 (+2 clicks) and Aerobic to position 15 (+3 clicks).

I'd really like to know your thoughts...

Cheers :thup:

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Apologies for not posting in a while, it's been a lot of work recently over the Christmas weeks so I've only been able to occausionally browse on my iPhone now and then but it's just too much effort replying with an iPhone. I will hopefully be able to post some stuff about how I've now set up my schedules in FM but it must be said that training is team, tactics and formation specific where you need to squeeze out the right attributes to get your tactic working that much better. I'll explain after the Christmas holidays.

Happy X-Mas everyone!

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Justified - what happened to this resolution for FM10? :p

This looked like a really good start. Perhaps we need you to make a resolution for FM11 now and to pick this up and continue with it. ;)

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