Is Cut Inside Broken?

[Mitja]

playing 442?

[matthew_234]

No I was playing 4-3-3 with the wingers playing AML and AMR

[crouchaldinho]

What do you think 'cutting in' is then? Isn't it something you do with the ball? :confused: To cut in and run at the defence, surely?

The wide players definitely cut in with the ball in 4-4-2. I posted proof above.

If you want to see movement off the ball, I do have some screenshots I could post.

Screenshot 1 - Watch Babel's position (playing 4-3-3), not offering a wide option for the fullback but instead getting into the box off the ball.

Screenshot 2 - This time look at both wide players in 4-4-2. Compare positioning of fullbacks. Both playing quite narrowly. If playing wide, 15 should be the other side of his fullback.

If you look at some of the screenshots above, you might see some of the movement off the ball if that is what you are interested in. I think this is more natural movement due to footedness because I'm not convinced that's exactly what the function of 'cuts inside' is.

To cut in is usually, in real life, to move from a wide position to a central position with the ball. Or perhaps to make a run inside from the flank without the ball into the box. Plenty of evidence for both in my screenshots.

Regards,

C.

[Mitja]

I understand real life cut in term.

don't we have run with ball slider, footedness and ppms which determine how player will move with the ball?

don't you think those other two Wide play instructions are without the ball instructions?

why would Cut in be, with the ball instruction then?

[SCIAG]

I understand real life cut in term.

don't we have run with ball slider, footedness and ppms which determine how player will move with the ball?

don't you think those other two Wide play instructions are without the ball instructions?

why would Cut in be, with the ball instruction then?

PPMs can take an age to train, footedness is an attribute, RWB does not relate to cutting in. There was no way to instruct a player to cut in (though ofc footedness helped). Cut inside is definately on ball. Move into channels will be off the ball, and hug touchline will be both.

[Mitja]

PPMs determine where and how often a player will RUN WITH BALL, yeah it's suppsoed to be a habbit. I don't see reason why mention how long it takes to learn/unlearn it.

Footedness determines the direction a player is more likely to take when DRIBBLING.

HUG the line is mixed instruction? I'm sure when you hug something it's got more to do with movement than dribbling..

[matthew_234]

Have you tried playing 4-4-2 with the 2 side midfielders playing as AML and AMR

Do the wingers still cut in then ????????

[kingpin]

I have no doubt that the cut in instruction works on the ball, henry and messi on my barca save do try it most of the time, my concern is the off the ball movement when a winger has the inside forward settings, i hardly ever see my wingers making diagonal runs into the box, they usuallly still run to the byline off the ball, and don't get in to good scoring positions enough, This may put me off playing any 4-3-3/4-5-1/4-2-3-1 formations as the CF (Ibrahimovic) Seems to be carrying my team, scoring all the goals, 21 goals compared to messi 4 and henry's 2.

[matthew_234]

Have you tried Roaming ??

[kingpin]

Yep, All the time for the wingers...

[SCIAG]

PPMs determine where and how often a player will RUN WITH BALL, yeah it's suppsoed to be a habbit. I don't see reason why mention how long it takes to learn/unlearn it.

Footedness determines the direction a player is more likely to take when DRIBBLING.

HUG the line is mixed instruction? I'm sure when you hug something it's got more to do with movement than dribbling..

• Tactics are different to a player's behaviour. The training time is of crucial importance.
  
• Footedness isn't controlled by the player.
  
• The player will also hug the line when dribbling.
  

[CPS]

I don't think its the issue that Cut Inside is broken but that the AI never uses it. I suspect every AI manager has wingers set to hug touchline as a default + crosses ball often. I posted this on another thread where I conducted a little experiment on goals scored by wide players. I holidayed for 3 months then watched every goal scored by a winger/wide midfielder. Of the 46 goals scored, 20 came from a back post header or volley from a cross coming from the opposite flank. On not one occasion did a winger receive the ball on the flank cut inside his full back and shoot on goal.

I then started a save as Man Utd and set up the team instuctions so Nani always cut inside from an AML position with crossing on rarely and role set as inside forward. I holidayed to the end of the demo and noticed he scored 8 goals in 28 games, I then watched the goals and a number of them came from him collecting the ball wide left, cutting inside and beating the keeper with a fierce right foot shot.

AI wingers look like they're on rails to me and are far too predictable, picking the ball up and racing to the byline every time. Surely it shouldn't be difficult to program AI managers into utilising wingers in a variety of ways?

[crouchaldinho]

I have no doubt that the cut in instruction works on the ball, henry and messi on my barca save do try it most of the time, my concern is the off the ball movement when a winger has the inside forward settings, i hardly ever see my wingers making diagonal runs into the box, they usuallly still run to the byline off the ball, and don't get in to good scoring positions enough, This may put me off playing any 4-3-3/4-5-1/4-2-3-1 formations as the CF (Ibrahimovic) Seems to be carrying my team, scoring all the goals, 21 goals compared to messi 4 and henry's 2.

Look at some of the screenshots I posted where often both wingers are making runs into the box or getting into good goalscoring positions.

[crouchaldinho]

On a slightly different tangent, I believe it is important to have variation and to have different attacking options.

That's why I think using the 'normal' wing play option but asking the two wingers to swap positions is my favourite tactical choice because it can be so effective to have them sometimes hugging the line and playing like a true winger, while other times cutting inside and playing more into the middle.

C.

[CPS]

crouchaldinho - I think we've established from this thread that cut inside isn't broken but I'd be interested in what you think of the AI's use of wingers? Do you think they're defaulted to 'cross often' and 'hug touchline'? I noticed an AI Messi scoring 1 goal in open play in half a season in the demo - if set up properly by a human player I'd expect him to be comfortably getting into double figures.

Personally I think the AI's use of how to maximise the strengths of certain players is the real issue and is severely lacking, especially with wingers.

[crouchaldinho]

crouchaldinho - I think we've established from this thread that cut inside isn't broken but I'd be interested in what you think of the AI's use of wingers? Do you think they're defaulted to 'cross often' and 'hug touchline'? I noticed an AI Messi scoring 1 goal in open play in half a season in the demo - if set up properly by a human player I'd expect him to be comfortably getting into double figures.

Personally I think the AI's use of how to maximise the strengths of certain players is the real issue and is severely lacking, especially with wingers.

It's not something I have studied in great depth. You might well be on to something though. I would guess that the AI managers generally use default settings.

Perhaps you should post something on the 'bugs' forum?

Regards,

C.

[CPS]

It's not something I have studied in great depth. You might well be on to something though. I would guess that the AI managers generally use default settings.

Perhaps you should post something on the 'bugs' forum?

Regards,

C.

Yes, I already posted a thread on there about wingers lack of goals - now I think that its probably is down to AI default settings so might bump that thread.

[Deltaroad]

Playing wingers on weaker side forcing them to cut in using their strong foot does work for MR ML. I tested this a few times on my game after buying two wingers who 'strong' weaker foot.

[SCIAG]

It's not something I have studied in great depth. You might well be on to something though. I would guess that the AI managers generally use default settings.

Perhaps you should post something on the 'bugs' forum?

Regards,

C.

Is it a bug though? I mean, most teams do use proper wingers. There are very few Inside Forwards around.

[crouchaldinho]

Playing wingers on weaker side forcing them to cut in using their strong foot does work for MR ML. I tested this a few times on my game after buying two wingers who 'strong' weaker foot.

Weren't you the poster who said it was 'broken' in the first place?

[crouchaldinho]

Is it a bug though? I mean, most teams do use proper wingers. There are very few Inside Forwards around.

At the top of the game, wide players who cut in are quite common, I would say. I know what you mean though.

Like I say, I haven't really studied the AI managers using cutting in, so I couldn't say whether or not it was a 'bug'.

It's not really a bug anyway. More of something that could perhaps be improved upon and given more variation.

Regards,

C.

[Deltaroad]

I never tested it using weaker positions, stronger foot on the ML MR only AMR/L. It seems to work better with support winger rather then attack but I need to see more games tho.

[CPS]

Is it a bug though? I mean, most teams do use proper wingers. There are very few Inside Forwards around.

On the contrary I think the use of traditional wingers is far less frequent in this day and age than it was, say 15 to 20 years ago. Certainly the likes of Arsenal, Liverpool or Chelsea do not encourage their wingers to get to the byline and get crosses in. And its only this season that Manchester United have started using two out and out wingers again.

The term 'inside forward' isn't readily used by people these days but in FM terminology I would certainly see players like Kuyt, Benayoun, Ashley Young, Arshavin, Joe Cole, Kranjcar, Matt Taylor more as 'inside forwards' than 'wingers'. If the AI is setting these type of players to hug touchline and cross often in every game then I think its wrong.

[Mitja]

Is it a bug though? I mean, most teams do use proper wingers. There are very few Inside Forwards around.

well AI Messi scoring one goal in half a season and Ricardo Fuller 20, isn't a bug?

looks like it's been agreed here that Cut in isn't broken and that it is a with the ball instruction?

[CPS]

looks like it's been agreed here that Cut in isn't broken and that it is a with the ball instruction?

Absolutely, it is a with the ball instuction. I must say I do see where you're coming from though, wide players off the ball positioning doesn't appear to be particularly creative in an attacking sense.

How effective do you think the 'roaming' feature is? I must say I'm more than a bit dubious about how much difference it really makes.

[Death.]

So that's proof that cutting in definitely isn't 'broken'.

It definitely works best with AMR and AML though.

And also, it can be really dangerous with the right kind of player playing on the opposite flank to his preferred foot.

Finally, using the 'normal' wing play option but asking the two wingers to swap positions can be really effective because sometimes they hug the line and play like a true winger, while other times they cut inside and play more into the middle. This can create very dangerous attacking variation and if you have a forward who is good in the air as well as on the ground, plus two talented wide players who can run at their man, cross the ball or curl one in from range, then you're all set for a very successful season.

Hope that has been interesting.

Regards,

C.

I don't believe it to be broken, but i do think the 'cut inside' function is flawed in some way. The frequency and effectiveness is clearly decided by the footedness of a player - whether they are playing on the same side of the pitch as their strongest foot or the 'wrong' side.

To carry on the theme of Liverpool, i don't think that cutting inside should be so heavily determined by footedness. If you take Benayoun, whenever he plays on the right for Liverpool he always cuts inside and often looks to dribble between the left-back and centre-back. But because he is right-footed, playing on the right side will reduce his frequency. Also, judging by the good work you did using screenshots, players like Benayoun on the right will cut inside with not only less frequency, but less effectiveness than a player like Babel on the left. I can assure you that in real life this is the opposite. In Babel's two seasons at Liverpool he's never scored a single goal via picking the ball up on the left and cutting inside. Also, to me, it seems from those screenshots that it might depend on a player having good long shots, as the goals seemed to come from him cutting inside and shooting from range. A player like Benayoun, or Messi to use a more common example, will dribble his way through a defence using dribbling and trickery. Looking at those screenshots, a player just hits a brick wall by trying to dribble in if avoiding releasing the ball. Okay that will happen plenty of times in real life, but i'd be interested to know if a player like Benayoun could have success dribbling inside from the right like he does in real life. Another thing i'd say - Benayoun's effectiveness in real life is less when he plays on the left-hand side. For a right-footed player, who prefers to cut inside and dribble at defences, this contradicts the way footedness dictates how frequent and effective a player will cut inside in the game.

[Mitja]

Absolutely, it is a with the ball instuction. I must say I do see where you're coming from though, wide players off the ball positioning doesn't appear to be particularly creative in an attacking sense.

How effective do you think the 'roaming' feature is? I must say I'm more than a bit dubious about how much difference it really makes.

me too. at least on wingers I can't see any signicant difference free role (roaming) makes, but I'm quite sure other people can.

would be very interesting to hear official response on Cut in and other Wide play instructions (with/without the ball)..

in theory even the name - WIDE play suggests that these instructions should deal with players' positionig and movement and thus influencing on WIDTH of formation. player who hugs the line should make formation wider in that position and cutting inside I see as opposite to it.

cutting in with the ball depends on footedness and side where winger plays, plus instructions like Run with ball (how often), Crossing and PPMs.

just a thought, nevermind

[Deltaroad]

Roaming would mean off the ball cutting in?

No roaming means cutting in with the ball?

[crouchaldinho]

Roaming has nothing to do with cutting in.

[Deltaroad]

When Cutting In is applied*

[Mitja]

I think roaming is what free role was before. it should encourege players to roam from position into space rather than stick to their position. that's in theory, I can't say I've seen my wingers doing that much. maybe they need time to adopt?

[Deltaroad]

I think the factors that encoruages cutting in are

a stronger weak foot

Playing Opposite flanks

PPM to have Cutting in.

Full backs to attack or support as this encourages them to move inside and full backs to overlap.

Maybe even long shots or shoot from distance

Suggestion is that roaming would encourage them to roam out of the wing into the middle.

[SCIAG]

On the contrary I think the use of traditional wingers is far less frequent in this day and age than it was, say 15 to 20 years ago. Certainly the likes of Arsenal, Liverpool or Chelsea do not encourage their wingers to get to the byline and get crosses in. And its only this season that Manchester United have started using two out and out wingers again.

The term 'inside forward' isn't readily used by people these days but in FM terminology I would certainly see players like Kuyt, Benayoun, Ashley Young, Arshavin, Joe Cole, Kranjcar, Matt Taylor more as 'inside forwards' than 'wingers'. If the AI is setting these type of players to hug touchline and cross often in every game then I think its wrong.

You're talking about the top flight. Of those you mention, I'd call Kuyt more of a defensive winger. Matt Taylor is probably more of a wide midfielder. The others, correct. The lower down you go however, the less there are, and those that are used are devastating. Kazim-Richards a few years ago was a good example.

At the top of the game, wide players who cut in are quite common, I would say. I know what you mean though.

Like I say, I haven't really studied the AI managers using cutting in, so I couldn't say whether or not it was a 'bug'.

It's not really a bug anyway. More of something that could perhaps be improved upon and given more variation.

Regards,

C.

Yes, they are common for the big clubs, but that's a tiny percentage.

It could also be a problem with the duty they give them. Let's say they give Robinho "Inside Forward" and "Cut Inside", but "Attack". That's the natural thing to do IMO, but from my observations using "Support" gets more cutting in out of the player. The first game I set Robinho to "support", he scored his first goal of the season. What did you have Babel on?

[crouchaldinho]

Babel was on attack.

[Siven]

Ive seen cut insides work...as ib the AMR/L will dribble the ball in and along the box then shoot into the 8 players he dribbled the ball too. wow great play =)

I think what people were hoping it would do is actually run at players heading into the box like inside forwards do, and when not on the ball will move into the box. But from playing the game it seems PPM make the inside forwards rather than the wideplay options. Quite dissapointing tbh.

[crouchaldinho]

Siven - look at the screenshots I posted above.

[matthew_234]

I have found that if you use the Inside Forward - Support option he seems to roam around off the ball into the centre , but I am playing as Arshavin ?

[kingpin]

Siven - look at the screenshots I posted above.

Can't really say it's totally conclusive off of 2 screen shots, even those aren't the best evidence, i'm not arguing they never make runs into the box, just very rarely, 9/10 my wingers don't show any incentve to get into the box, they will either stand static marked by the FB waiting to recieve the ball so they can run, or they will just run to the byline like a proper winger....

[9inchnails]

I think the "wide play" is just a phony option

during a match ,when you go to the tactics panel,change and only change the "wide play" option,you wil find the you CANT EVEN CONFIRM CHANGES!!!

it just mean that NOTHING REALLY CHANGED.

[crouchaldinho]

Can't really say it's totally conclusive off of 2 screen shots, even those aren't the best evidence, i'm not arguing they never make runs into the box, just very rarely, 9/10 my wingers don't show any incentve to get into the box, they will either stand static marked by the FB waiting to recieve the ball so they can run, or they will just run to the byline like a proper winger....

I posted 12 (twelve!)

[Ranbir]

Surely as a manager I should have the ability to be unique and create new tactics that DO have side midfielder cutting inside?

Or is the restriction cause it is easy to exploit?

[crouchaldinho]

It does work Ranbir. We've established that.

[kingpin]

I posted 12 (twelve!)

Off the ball? I only see 2, i saw the ones wher babel runs in and shoots, but i'm talking about off the ball movement, i'm pretty upset that i never had a problem with it in 09 but as soon as there is an actual function for wide play my wingers don't act the way i want them to...Hopefully the new TTF can help me:cool:

[crouchaldinho]

Off the ball? I only see 2, i saw the ones wher babel runs in and shoots, but i'm talking about off the ball movement, i'm pretty upset that i never had a problem with it in 09 but as soon as there is an actual function for wide play my wingers don't act the way i want them to...Hopefully the new TTF can help me:cool:

Several of the other screenshots show off the ball movement with the wide players getting into the box. For instance, look at Kuyt when Babel has the ball in the box; he isn't wide, he is making a run into the box inside his fullback. Plenty of examples of it in the screenshots.

C.

[Mitja]

getting into box isn't cutting in really. I'm 99.9% sure you can't set wingers to cut in (off the ball), in 442.

also I'm sure Wide play was meant to be movement slider, like I mentioned in post number 77.

[kingpin]

It's just me then, i can't get them to do it, well not often enough any way...

[Mitja]

I wonder why there's no Wide play option in classical tactic system?

[crouchaldinho]

Mitja - this 'cutting in off the ball' you keep talking about. What is your definition of it?

Give me a scenario, in a 4-4-2, or even in any other formation, where a wide player would cut in off the ball.

Are you just talking about playing more narrow and away from the touchline?

Are we talking about a specific movement during attacking play, in which case isn't this more about 'roaming' from position? And in this case, surely you would in off the ball in order to make an attacking run into the box?

What is it exactly that you want to achieve because I'm afraid to say I don't understand at the moment?

Regards,

C.

[Mitja]

this was written by someone alse, maybe it'll make more sense as it is written in plain english.

''Taking a standard 4 man back-four as the opposition then 5 forward channels are created

1 either side of each FB (Hug & Channels), and 1 between the DC's (Through Centre)

Hug/Cut In to me aren't instructions to take any of these in particular, but are instructions to change the width of play in the final 3rd.

Hug Line should be used/result in a wide attacking play that stretches the opposition defence creating gaps (in theory).

Cut In should be used/result in a more narrow focussed attack where you are capable of overpowering the defence.''

this is something I agree with and I'm sure Wide play was meant to work like that - as movement/positional instruction influncing attacking width.

you can see that kind of movement in every football game. for example if you watched Barca - Zaragoza yestrday, Barca lined up in classic 451 formation. when they didn't have the ball they defended with Messi and Inesta on wings + two MCs (Keita and Xavi) and a DM (Busquets).

when they were in posession of the ball, usually Keita moved wide (in FM terms he moved into chanells), Iniesta operated in central positions between Zaragoza defence and midfield (cut in, support duty?), and Messi played his usual stuff between touchline and 'hole' but further up the pitch than Iniesta (cut in, attack duty?).

try to do that in FM and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I agree with you about Roaming, in theory. you would expect them to move from thier position trying to exploit the space etc. try to set one winger with free role and the other without it, and observe their movement. no difference.

I understand this is just a game and I don't expect to be able to recreate every idea I might have, but movement is such a basic thing in football just like passing or closing down. what I do expect is that, if there's a feature in the game like some tactical instruction, I expect it to work half decently at least.

[crouchaldinho]

this is something I agree with and I'm sure Wide play was meant to work like that - as movement/positional instruction influncing attacking width.

The truth is that I am not 100% sure what 'cutting in' does as a wide play option. We can be sure that players will cut in with the ball, as evidenced by the screenshots above. I also think I have seen some evidence of the wide players coming inside off the ball as well.

I disagree that 'cutting in' should hugely influence attacking width though. That's the the 'width' slider is for. And let's not forget that cutting in is something you do from a wide position. However, I do think I have seen evidence that off the ball positioning is affected by cutting in.

I wish I could upload some more screenshots but I'm having some problems with ImageShack at the moment. But if you take a look back at some of these screenshots, you'll see what I mean.

Babel and Kuyt are both positioning themselves narrowly, basically playing as two makeshift strikers off the ball, in a number of the screenshots. They are both on the inside of their fullbacks and the rarely offer the wide option, as you might expect them to do if 'hugging the line'. Compare positioning of the fullbacks.

Regards,

C.