Marz

Ajax System for FM2011 onwards “AFC Ajax“ 1990s (Discussion)

375 posts in this topic

Started FM10 with Ajax; easy to implement the Ajax System with current player pool. Questions and input etc as always welcome, I hope I will have a base system ready sometime in the future.

If you have any questions which are not covered in this thread, please have a look at the previous [thread=109325]thread[/thread] before posting.

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marz:

i am assuming you continue to use opposition instructions to close down always on the back four> if this is the case does this not throw your current individual closing down instructions off? Have tyou tried without the oi closing down instructions?

Still getting used to the new interface and club; day 1. Once I have had a meeting with the backroom staff, set up scouting, meet the players and set up training and played a few matches I will have an answer.

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Going to be following this thread very closely in the coming months.

Marz, i take it you will only be using Barca on the demo and will revert back to Ajax come the full version?

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Going to be following this thread very closely in the coming months.

Marz, i take it you will only be using Barca on the demo and will revert back to Ajax come the full version?

Ja, back to the ArenA and de Toekomst as soon as possible. :)

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Maybe Ajax's new training complex should be called "het Verleden" ;).

I look forward to the development of this thread, the tactics creator should make it much more Ajax system-friendly.

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Maybe Ajax's new training complex should be called "het Verleden" ;).

I thought that was the new name of the DSB stadium

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I have fond memories of the Ajax system from CM2, it was pretty wild-looking but had great results. Very much looking forward to seeing how this goes, or I might work on it myself as part of my "classic tactics" project. La Grande Inter is the first one!

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That will be the Bankroet Stadion :D

Marz, what player roles do you use? 3 ball playing defenders?

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Maybe Ajax's new training complex should be called "het Verleden" ;).

I look forward to the development of this thread, the tactics creator should make it much more Ajax system-friendly.

No comment

I have fond memories of the Ajax system from CM2, it was pretty wild-looking but had great results. Very much looking forward to seeing how this goes, or I might work on it myself as part of my "classic tactics" project. La Grande Inter is the first one!

CM2 tactic was called AJAX and looked like this:-


       x      S     x       
       |             |        
       |             |         
AML   |      x     |     AMR
       |      |      |
       |      |      |
      MC   MC   MC


x            DMC             x
|              |                |
|              x                |
DL            DC            DR

The results were so good that most Dutch teams in that game adopted that system. That is one of the reasons why SI took it out of the game.

That will be the Bankroet Stadion :D

Marz, what player roles do you use? 3 ball playing defenders?

I have had a look and played around with the tactic wizard. The closest example/types I think are similar like you said are the ball playing defenders. Which could be adjusted according to your players and opponents, in terms of defend, cover and stopper. Normally the #2 & 5 would be on similar duties, while the #3 would normally be on a cover duty.

The closest thing I have seen for the #4 is the Deep Lying Playmaker with support duty with RWB (run with ball) on mixed. For the three players in midfield (#8, 6 & 10) I don’t like and of the presets to be honest. Again closest presets being Box to Box for the #8 & 6 with support duties. And the #10 on Central Midfielder with an attack duty.

Wingers on a mix of attack and support duties, with the #9 playing as advanced forward; attack duty. With the goalkeeper on Sweeper Keeper.

The wizard is only a starting point from which to go, for people who are not comfortable with the sliders. So some presets will not fit to all systems/formations and players.

I have been finished off a few things in FM07 and can now fully concentrate on FM10. I am hoping to have a tested upload ready Thursday/Friday night.

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Doing this too with Arsenal until the new game comes out...Will let you know how it goes.

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marz:

over previous seasons what is your usual goal difference ( goals for v goals against) at the end of the season?

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after reading the posts i decided to give it a go, i've been playing since cm days so thought this should be an interesting experiment. instead of playing with a forward i thought instead to try playing with an amc trequartista as a playmaker. the idea behind this was to try and control possession even more and i had hoped he would be able to play those lovely little slide rule pass through balls like barca do in real life. the tactic is so far controlling possession well, while being suprisingly steady at the back. individual instuctions are as follows

gk- keeper sweeper with def collect- idea being he could mop up any long balls over the top

dr/l- full backs on reg support role

dc- regular central defender set on cover- thought he could drop off a bit and offer more cover

dmc- anchor man- mentality set to 1 to properly shield the back line while also winning the ball and starting moves

mcr/l- twin attacking mentalities of advanced playmakers- was hoping they would push on and offer support and runs through the middle

mcc- ball winning mid- mentality on defend set to 1- more support whille offering a ball winner further up the pitch

aml/r- inside forwards- one is set to target man with run on to ball instructions- was hoping they would cut in with the ball and get on to through balls

amc- trequartista- set as playmaker

all players have long shots set to rarely, still get a few but no where near as many as before.

here is the link to the tactic i created, give it a look and see what you think. i'm trying to figure out how to get them to play the inside forwards in more often, that said i have found their one on one skills to be severely lacking. let me know if you have any ideas.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/qz4tkzzdmmm/fm10tac.tac

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Doing this too with Arsenal until the new game comes out...Will let you know how it goes.

:thup:

Good to have you working on this from the very beginning. :D

Not quite the beginning, Barcelona in the demo was to boring. I have not even played a match yet; although I watched a few. I expect my copy of FM10 to be delayed (post strike), and then db editing. But I will keep an eye on this thread as always.

marz:

over previous seasons what is your usual goal difference ( goals for v goals against) at the end of the season?

2.7 (goals scored) to 0.7 (goals conceded)

aml/r- inside forwards- one is set to target man with run on to ball instructions- was hoping they would cut in with the ball and get on to through balls

amc- trequartista- set as playmaker

all players have long shots set to rarely, still get a few but no where near as many as before.

here is the link to the tactic i created, give it a look and see what you think. i'm trying to figure out how to get them to play the inside forwards in more often, that said i have found their one on one skills to be severely lacking. let me know if you have any ideas.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/qz4tkzzdmmm/fm10tac.tac

I will have a look tomorrow, but from what you have written (unless I misunderstand) it sounds as if the formation you are playing has little to do with the Ajax System.

The aml/r should be wing forwards and not inside forwards. And instead of a Striker leading the line you are playing with a trequartista.

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I downloaded and had a look at your tactic. I think playing the #9 from the AMC position is a creative and imaginative idea. But like I have already stated, it has little to do with the Ajax system. The reason is, that the #10 moves into space created by the #9. You are more than welcome to contribute to this thread if you stay on topic; within the framework of the Ajax System:-

#9 – (played from) S (position)

#11&7 – SL,R or AML,R

#10 – MC or AMC (#4 then needs to play from MC)

#8&6 - MC (MLC & MRC)

#4 – DMC or MC (DC when playing the #3 from SW)

#5&2 – DC (DLC & DRC) or DL,R (when playing vs 1 striker)

#3 – DC or SW

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i'll check out your framework, been using milan made changes when i got the full game and the way i have it set up right no is almost identical to how you described. moved the treq up front and have him playing as a complete forward, moved the central of the three mid into the amc role with the same instructions same as the ml/r i had before, the remaining central midfielders are set to ball winners, one with low mentality one on team. amr/l are set to wingers. been having a lot of joy going forward almost three a game but am leaking goals 1.3 or so. working on ironing out the wrinkles will keep you updated.

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moved the central of the three mid into the amc role with the same instructions same as the ml/r i had before, the remaining central midfielders are set to ball winners, one with low mentality one on team. amr/l are set to wingers. been having a lot of joy going forward almost three a game but am leaking goals 1.3 or so. working on ironing out the wrinkles will keep you updated.

My guess is that your defensive problems come from the wings and through balls. I have not played a match yet in the new ME (match engine), but as theory goes the way you have your #5 & 2 positioned isolates the #3. I tend to only play the #5 & 2 (half-backs) from the full-back position when the opposition plays with 1 striker. If the opponents play with only 1 striker but also 2 very attacking wingers or central attacking midfielders they should also play from the half-back positions. So in most cases the defence should line-up with 3 DC’s.

While this makes the defence stronger (especially against through balls), the team will have less width in build-up/establishment of play. To add to that, from a defensive point of view the opponents wide players will have more space. To solve both those problems, the #8 & 6 also need to play semi-central/wide roles (MLC & MRC). The only way (currently) to achieve this is to, position a player in-between those two players; either the #4 or 10. It can be done without the central midfielder, through mentality and a few other settings (but this requires good players and a lot of tweaking and does not always guarantee results as these players are still playing from a MC role).

i'll check out your framework

It is just the way I structure my training schedule and playing staff from the first team to the Under 19s. Less work in creating and naming schedules for whoever downloads the schedules, people will still have to manage training. All the schedules use the Ajax numbering system, so it should be easy to understand which players go where and who should be re-trained to a given positions; but people should not be rigid about it.

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Jeff Vetere (who I brought in), and then 2 who were already at the club. Going to give staff sometime and see if any improve.

Having some problems with the game [thread=161196]crashing[/thread]. :(

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are you playing 2010 or the demo?

Jeff Vetere (who I brought in), and then 2 who were already at the club. Going to give staff sometime and see if any improve.

Having some problems with the game [thread=161196]crashing[/thread]. :(

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are you playing 2010 or the demo?

I have started my FM2010 career game, or trying to start playing at least. Got the game through the post on release day, I am not going to edit the db; just patched it.

People starting their game with Ajax should try Atouba from the #11 position (left winger).

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hi Marz,

Any advice on what temporary tactic to use ..until the Ajax system is released for F10?

cheers

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Why not try to develop the Ajax System yourself?

Basic concept being:-

GK

DC DC DC (in my opinion the #5 & 2 should not start from DL & DR as a default, there are however circumstances when they should; as described in [thread=4132359&postcount=18]post 18[/thread] ).

DMC

MC MC MC

AMR & AML or SR & SL (I am leaning towards playing with wide AM at the moment, with attacking strategy/team mentality).

S

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Why not try to develop the Ajax System yourself?

Basic concept being:-

GK

DC DC DC (in my opinion the #5 & 2 should not start from DL & DR as a default, there are however circumstances when they should; as described in [thread=4132359&postcount=18]post 18[/thread] ).

DMC

MC MC MC

AMR & AML or SR & SL (I am leaning towards playing with wide AM at the moment, with attacking strategy/team mentality).

S

okay great thanks ...any chance you can assist with each positions role?

For instance:

3 DC in the backline ...central defender - ball playing defender - limited defender what role should each play

DMC - defensive midfielder - deep lying playmaker - anchor man

really need help in the midfield ..with the 3 MC

cheers & thanks

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The side I am trying to create at FC Koln has a pretty similar system.

I Finished my first season with FC Koln in a respectable enough 10th place, i've spent my summer reaping the rewards of going through the whole season 50k a week under my wage budget and cashing in on some older stars. Spent 15 million on new talent to bolster an already decent young squad and managed to get Riquelme on a free for a 2 year contract. I seriously think I could have a run at the title this year, the likes of Badelj, Podolski, Riquelme, Ochoa and Youssef are as good as anything in the division.

I've had enough of full backs doing absolutely nothing to stop wide players getting a cross in and not doing enough whilst overlapping to justify their place in the side. As a result I am going 3 at the back and attempting to create a formation which doesn't place to much emphasis on your full backs to do a lot of your attacking play, having looked at what other people have tried I have decided to go with a 3-1-2-3-1 formation.

The main reason for my choice is that I am trying to get Riquelme to find space in the middle of the park, not as a deep lying play maker but not a number 10, just as he did for Argentina under Peckerman. Have done it by placing him in the middle with a balanced attack/defense slider, given him max creative freedom, no closing down. I'm finding that with an attacking midfield player in the team, that bombs on (full attacking mentality and runs from deep often) rather than creates ala Gerrard or Tim Cahill, in my case Lucas Podolski, and an an anchor man, Dickson Etuhu, you can stretch the midfield vertically enough to give him room. Plays some unbelievable passes in there and has a ridiculous long shot. I'm completing the midfield by putting in a willing runner to win the ball back and do Riquleme's running for him, Steven Appiah and Maniche share this job.

.........................Ochoa......

....... ...Sharner..Geremol..Youssef..

..........................Etuhu....

..................Maniche..Riquelme...

...Valdiva.............Podolski......Badelj..

..........................Ishiaku

Looking good through Pre-Season, but as always I'll never know until the league starts. I'm hoping it works because I often find that the number 10 position is too congested with teams almost always having holding players, it is after all a position that developed because teams would leave gaps between midfield and defense, and that deep lying midfield play-makers are forever trying long hopeful passes and costing you possession.

I shall keep people posted how I get on.

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Here is the training/squad framework I use:-

Ajax System training

I don't know if it's just me but I downloaded this and most of them are blank. But I've enjoyed reading your adventures as Ajax. I have a question though about generally playing as them, is it possible to have superstars or do you have to play as they are in real life, constantly replacing the bigger names with quality youth?

Bestie.

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what do people feel about how to setup the lone striker? Basically should he have an attack role or a support role? My gues is for an attacking formation an attack role is suitable (as long as you have AM or Trequesta behind him so they can support) and for more defensive formations he should have a support role so he will hold the ball up. What do people think?

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Whenever I use a formation like this or my own attempts at the Brazil '70 setup I always use the striker as an attacking role but with no forward runs. Basically he looks to attack and score goals but ends up behind the lines of the wingers so that they are "outside strikers" and he is almost a Trequesta in the AMC slot only starting in the ST position.

Bestie.

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I don't know if it's just me but I downloaded this and most of them are blank. But I've enjoyed reading your adventures as Ajax. I have a question though about generally playing as them, is it possible to have superstars or do you have to play as they are in real life, constantly replacing the bigger names with quality youth?

Bestie.

It's just framework and you create schedules according to the needs of each player. Also it's easier to organize player roles in the club. That is just my opinion :)

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*laughs* That would definitely explain it! Thanks.

Bestie.

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Great to see this thread up and running, Marz.

To veer very slightly off-topic, I don't know if this has been attempted or suggested before, but would you have any interest in a project to reproduce, say, the Champions League of 1995, using the new competition editor? Your knowledge of the Ajax team of the time is peerless, and I'm sure we could cobble together enough experts from amongst our number to flesh out the other sides. Would be a great means of testing out the Ajax system in its natural environment, so to speak.

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Hey guys, as we're still "messing around" with tactical options to recreate the Ajax system. I'm playing with AZ currently after trying Ajax for a few saves before this one (with limited success).

While playing with AZ I attempted to create a tactic out of my own perspective, as recreating the Ajax system with Ajax did not bring much success. To my surprise the tactic I set up with AZ turned out to look quite like how I remember Ajax playing in the mid 90s. It's as follows:

xxxxxxxxxx(ST)xxxxxxxxx

xxxxxx(AM)xxx(AM)xxxxx

x(ML)xxxx(MC)xxxx(MR)x

xxxxxxxxx(DCM)xxxxxxxxx

xxxx(DC)xx(DC)xx(DC)xxx

xxxxxxxxxx(GK)xxxxxxxxxx

Though even somewhat more offensively oriented than the Ajax system due to having two "10" roles, it seems easy enough to drop one AMC back to the MC role. Surprisingly, dispite their personal settings, the ML and MR operate very defensively, yet still getting forward a lot, something I recall was something Van Gaal also liked in its wingers. Though the tactic seems to be more attacking than the Ajax system, scoring goals was the main problem.

I've kind of given up on developing this tactic (as with any other tactic for that matter) as I can't seem to get a team to perform well in FM10 yet. 10th with Ajax, 17th with AZ (lol). It could be a matter of tweaking the tactic, but I'm not much of a tweaker...

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There is one question I have with those who have properly research the Ajax system. In Inverting the Pyramid, Jonathan Wilson has a diagram showing Holland's Total Football (which I am guessing is designed the same way, yes?) but the diagram shows the formation more like a 4-3-3 with side-backs, a centre-back, a true libero, a D-M, 2 C-Ms and three attackers (LW, ST, RW). Is this totally off the mark?

Bestie.

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I will upload my tactic sometime tonight, and then reply to the posts. People who want to use it need to make sure (by retraining), that their players are at least accomplished in:-

#9 – S

#11&7 – S

#10 – MC

#8&6 - MC

#4 – DMC

#5&2 – DC

#3 – DC

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Ajax System FM10 version 1.1

Really basic tweaking that has to be done, apart from opponents instructions are:-

Current team mentality is set to the highest normal, with the striker (#9) given an individual mentality which is the first attacking mentality.

The Ajax system is an attacking system, so I would not recommend setting the team mentality lower than 10 (unless the opponents are pushing a lot of players forward in the last minutes to score etc). The #9 mentality is set to the first attacking notch, as he should not be tracking back. If you do set the team mentality lower than the current preset (which I think is 14 think) then you might have to get the #9 to hold up the ball.

If the team needs to be more attacking (mentality sliders set into the attacking notches), then disable the strikers’ (#9) individual mentality. And also set RFD (runs from deep) too rarely, set to sometimes when the team mentality is in normal, to exploit the space behind the opponent.

The (#11&7) wingers’ RFD (runs from deep) should be set on rarely at all times, as their task is to keep the field wide/provide wide options at all times. Since they play as wide Strikers they should look for through balls anyway; a bit like a central striker not needing RFD on often (unless it is Inzaghi).

The #10 RFD should be set to often at all times, and if possible play a player who has “Gets forward whenever possible” as a preferred move.

The three settings below need to be tweak (from sometimes to often) according to the players available (and opposition) for positions #8,10,6:-

Try through balls (TTB) – a must for the player in the #10 position

Try long shoots (TLS)

Run with ball (RWB) – I try to have players in these positions, #8 & 6 who are capable often RWB

RFD for positions #8 & 6 should be set to sometimes, as they play controlling roles within the system.

#4 passing could be decreased if the player available for this position does not have high creativity (vision); same goes for the #3.

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The side I am trying to create at FC Koln has a pretty similar system.

I shall keep people posted how I get on.

Please do keep us up to date, and maybe upload your tactic. I would be interested in seeing how far we differ, as the general idea/shape is similar.

I have a question though about generally playing as them, is it possible to have superstars or do you have to play as they are in real life, constantly replacing the bigger names with quality youth?

Bestie.

If you meant is it possible to keep superstars at Ajax in FM10 then I must say, I do not know yet. I did manage it in FM07 (in FM10 it will no doubt be harder). It is a case of staying in the Champions league, as that will have some impact on top players stay. And from staying or even winning that competition, the club reputation will grow. As will the various budgets, which are needed to keep superstars.

what do people feel about how to setup the lone striker? Basically should he have an attack role or a support role? My gues is for an attacking formation an attack role is suitable (as long as you have AM or Trequesta behind him so they can support) and for more defensive formations he should have a support role so he will hold the ball up. What do people think?

Not sure what the changes (sliders), are when the role/duty of the target man is chnaged. But I think he should always have an attack role. The Wingers and #10 are the ones who need their roles changed according to what you need, they can offer, opponents etc.

It's just framework and you create schedules according to the needs of each player. Also it's easier to organize player roles in the club. That is just my opinion :)

Correct :thup:

Great to see this thread up and running, Marz.

To veer very slightly off-topic, I don't know if this has been attempted or suggested before, but would you have any interest in a project to reproduce, say, the Champions League of 1995, using the new competition editor? Your knowledge of the Ajax team of the time is peerless, and I'm sure we could cobble together enough experts from amongst our number to flesh out the other sides. Would be a great means of testing out the Ajax system in its natural environment, so to speak.

Interesting idea, I can help with regard to Ajax and Milan info in that period. But when the game does not crash, I enjoy it and do not think I will spend any time playing modifications of FM10.

Try posting in the editors’ forum and see if you can get any support to help you with editing etc. As it will be a huge job.

While playing with AZ I attempted to create a tactic out of my own perspective, as recreating the Ajax system with Ajax did not bring much success. To my surprise the tactic I set up with AZ turned out to look quite like how I remember Ajax playing in the mid 90s. It's as follows:

xxxxxxxxxx(ST)xxxxxxxxx

xxxxxx(AM)xxx(AM)xxxxx

x(ML)xxxx(MC)xxxx(MR)x

xxxxxxxxx(DCM)xxxxxxxxx

xxxx(DC)xx(DC)xx(DC)xxx

xxxxxxxxxx(GK)xxxxxxxxxx

I've kind of given up on developing this tactic (as with any other tactic for that matter) as I can't seem to get a team to perform well in FM10 yet. 10th with Ajax, 17th with AZ (lol). It could be a matter of tweaking the tactic, but I'm not much of a tweaker...

Please stay on topic, the Ajax system of the 1990s had 2 wingers and not 2 central attacking midfielders.

The problems you had in the Dutch league, could not just be a result of tactics.

There is one question I have with those who have properly research the Ajax system. In Inverting the Pyramid, Jonathan Wilson has a diagram showing Holland's Total Football (which I am guessing is designed the same way, yes?) but the diagram shows the formation more like a 4-3-3 with side-backs, a centre-back, a true libero, a D-M, 2 C-Ms and three attackers (LW, ST, RW). Is this totally off the mark?

Bestie.

Holland’s famous Total football was played out of a 433/424. Cruyff changed the 433 employed by Ajax when he took over as manager and played 343.

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Marz:

What opposition instructions are you using?

I will try and write up a few things I do in certain circumstances, by next week.

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Marz,

Thank you, both your answers were what I needed.

Bestie.

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Marz,

Thank you, both your answers were what I needed.

Bestie.

Glad I could help.

There are a few things that need tweaking in the 1.1 download. Mainly the RFD (Run from deep):-

#2 & 5 sometimes (from rarely)

#9 sometimes (he keeps dropping too deep, and into the space of the #10 with it set as rarely)

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Marz:

I have Carrizo in goal but he has lost the ball several times outside the area allowing the oppositions striker to score an easy goal.

What attribute should I be looking for in a keeper to fix this?

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Marz:

I have Carrizo in goal but he has lost the ball several times outside the area allowing the oppositions striker to score an easy goal.

What attribute should I be looking for in a keeper to fix this?

Which Carrizo, I get 15 results when I do a search.

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Juan Pablo Carrizo

Best if you upload a match file to rapidshare.

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marz:

cant upload. i was hoping maybe figure out something from his attributes. I was thinking off the ball or deciscions but not sure

Best if you upload a match file to rapidshare.

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marz:

cant upload. i was hoping maybe figure out something from his attributes. I was thinking off the ball or deciscions but not sure

Unless I or others see the match, we would just be blindly guessing what the problem could be. Just out of curiosity, why can you not upload it?

marz:

what size pitch are you using?

Default starting size, 102m in lenght and 65m wide. I did not get an option to change the size.

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Seems the wingers #11 & 7 (played from SL & SR), need to have both wide AM and striker as their positions (or maybe just one out of the two). In the tactics screen it shows them as S, and the colour indicator uses the Striker position ability. But in team-talks and players profile (games played in position) it displays the wingers as playing in the wide AM positions.

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not sure how to upload

Unless I or others see the match, we would just be blindly guessing what the problem could be. Just out of curiosity, why can you not upload it?

Default starting size, 102m in lenght and 65m wide. I did not get an option to change the size.

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