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arsenal_2111

[Suggestion] Make it Simpler - includes mock ups

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Evening everyone :thup:,

There have been some people saying that they find Football Manager 2009 too difficult, so I have been wondering how FM could be made simpler.

The area this thread will cover is the player profile page, where it gives statistics and this seasons stats. At the moment there are only three points, but I hope to develop this thread in the future.

I don't want to do much talking in this, hopefully the screenshots I have created will clear up any confusion. Of course, if there is anything you don't understand feel free to ask.

1. Clearing up what stats mean

Do you remember threads asking what 'Acceleration' or 'Composure' mean? No one knows what every stat does, and my first improvement helps people to understand what each stat does.

I think that these descriptions are in the manual, but having them in the game would make them much more accessible.

I feel that it would be very useful to be able to hover over the stat you would like to find out the meaning of, and for a small piece of text appear briefly explaining what this attribute does. There could be an option to develop this description, allowing the Human Manager to see a precise explanation but to also have a full explanation avalible.

As it could be difficult to sum up what a stat means in a short sentence, it could also be clickable and the click brings up an extended description of the task.

Below are two screenshots, explaining what 'Pace' is, both briefly and more in depth.

Brief Explanation

and

Extended Explanation

2. Who needs what?

Right, this idea has been changed significantly since I first came up with the idea, the dashed line seperates my previous suggestion from my most recent suggestion. I have chosen to leave the first version in because I believe it is important you see how this has been developed.

Like in number one, there seem to be quite a lot of threads asking which stats are needed for a player in a certain position.

Although there are lists avalible on the internet, not every Football Manager player visits these forums. I feel there should be something in the game that shows the Human Manager which technical stats are most important for a player in a certain position.

You may notice I said technical stats and that is because, in my opinion, all if not most mental and physical stats are important.

I guess I should introduce you to Konté. He is a Reunion winger who I have in my Harpenden Town team. He is capable of playing at Attacking Midfield Left or Centre as well as as a Centre Forward. The position he is 'natural' in is Attacking Midfield Left.

In the screenshots below I have showed a way that I believe would benefit everyone - it would enable those who want support to get it whilst not forcing it upon people.

Important Stats - Ticked

and

Important Stats - Unticked

In the first screenshot you can see that 'Show Key Technical stats in bold' is ticked. In that screenshot 'Crossing', 'Dribbling', 'First Touch', 'Passing' and 'Technique' are all in bold. These are the stats that I consider to be the most important, but if this was in the game it would be SI who choose which stats are most important. I'm sure they know more than me!

-----------------------------------------

Well, that was before. Lets go to now. You know Konté now, so I won't introduce him again. This new idea focuses on customisation, and allowing the player to select which stats they feel are more important whilst also offering several graphical options.

After it being pointed out to me that some physical and mental stats are more important to some positions that to others, all stats could now be included in this.

Firstly, let me show you how I feel it would be best to make the option to select these stats avalible to the human manager.

I think the 'Preferences' screen is the best place for this, under Display and Sound. After all, that is what this is. I'll let the screenshots do the talking, but in case you can't see where I have changed it is under 'Display Settings'.

New option - Nothing Selected

and

New option - DC Selected

When you press 'Edit' it takes you to the following screen where you can edit the stats you want to be selected as Key Attributes.

Selecting DC Key Stats

Couple of button descriptions here - 'Reset' would make the stats go back to what SI set at the start, 'Clear' would make it so no stats have ticks.

There are various ways that these key stats could be shown.

Reminder of what it looks like now (and what it would look like if 'Identify Key Attributes' is not ticked.

The following are different ways it could be displayed if 'Identify Key Attributes' was ticked.

The original idea - key stats in bold

or

Star indicates key stat

or

Key stats highlighted, I'm not suggesting these colours, they are purely to make my part easier!

3. Clear up Goalkeeper stats

Some goalkeeper stats in this game are either unclear or unnecessary in my opinion.

There are 'Free Kick Taking' and 'Penalty Taking' for goalkeepers. In all honesty, how many people use both of these? I feel it would be better to have them combined in a 'Set Peice Taking' stat, which would enable my next idea to be implemented. If both this and my first idea were put together the 'Penalty Taking' and 'Free Kick Taking' stats could appear seperately with the extended paragraph.

'Kicking', for example, is very vague and could refer to goal kicks, kicks under pressure or short kicks. I feel that, to fill the extra space left by combining the two set peice taking stats, the 'Kicking' attribute could be split into a 'Kicking Accuracy' and 'Kicking Power'. These would both help when setting team instructions to do with distribution, and would generally make kicking for Goalkeepers clearer.

In case you don't have FM open to look, below are screenshots of this both before and after my changes.

Normal Goalkeepers Stats

and

Proposed Goalkeepers Stats

As I realise some people will want to see the free kicks and penalty taking stats seperately, I think it would be best to combine idea 1 with this and make one short description that can be developed into a more detailed explanation of these stats. This detailed explanation would contain seperate stats for Penalty Taking and Free Kick Taking.

Image of Set Pieces - Brief

and

Image of Set Pieces - Extended

4. Bring back the old form list

This is a quick one, won't take long - promise :D

On games previous to Football Manager 2009 the 'Last 5 Games' part of a Player Profile listed the ratings in the last five games. '09 doesn't - it just shows the average from the last five games. Personally I prefer the old way, with an average the player could have been bad for four games but amazing in the fifth, which would result in a misleading figure, or the opposite.

But, as FM09 has rating to the decimal point, they will not all fit on the list. So, like in point 1 with the attribute descriptions, I feel there should be a 'hover' function that brings up a box with a more indepth (but still brief) view of the players last five games. This would give the Human Manager a better idea of recent form, as it would be easy to see if the value is a fair reflection without even a click of a button!

Last 5 Games Developed

5. Make notes more accessible

Currently the notes section for a player is hidden away, bottom of the tree. Delvey below said that sometimes you want to make a note that is easy to see.

I think the best way to do this is to have an extra section under 'Injuries', 'Bans', 'Fitness' and 'International Status', making it easy to use as it is just one click on a players name to get to this.

Notes Section Unfilled

and

Notes Section Filling In

and

Notes Section Filled In

In addition to this there could be a new option when on your squad screen to see 'Notes', which would show the small notes you have written. This would allow you to select your team not only by form but by their playing style as well. This would allow the user to depend less on the Assistant Manager, making the game more individual too.

----------------------------------------------

Right, I've gone on for longer than I intended, hope I didn't bore you too much. I'd appriciate feedback on these points, either good or bad. [EDIT] Having just pressed 'Submit', I've realised quite how long this post became - apologies :thup:

Thanks,

Jammy

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Too tired to give a detailed explanation of what i think and feel about it, but i like it :)

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"Tooltips" are such a good idea - great info, little effort to include them. The "key attributes" is a bit more difficult because there's such a difference of opinion in which are the most important attributes. What I would like is more customizable filters and stats screens - FML does an awesome job of this - that I can use to create those lists of key attributes or order attributes lists.

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Thumbs up! I think the stats (and tactics if we're at this point) screen really needs to be clearer. Even if a new player visits the forums there are so many threads that he may get lost, or pick the wrong advice from such wealth of info; or he may not know for what to look. There really needs to be more info IN-game (and no, the STV doesn't count).

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Some solid ideas, i generally like the help these could give to users.

1. Good idea, the attributes can seem to be a bit vague. Although turning of this feature would be needed for me as i like to hover my mouse over stats when i'm checking out a player so would find it a bit annoying if some text was obscuring my view. That's just a personal preference.

2. I really like this idea, it would also be useful for comparing players so you can focus on the important stats and not be subconciously swayed by those high eg. throw-in/corner/flair stats :D

3. I agree the penalty and free kick stats aren't required. But tbh i don't really think goalies have a range of passing, they generally pass short or hoof it. Its pretty rare to see a goalie do a successful long range pass so i'm not sure how useful your new proposed stats would be.

4. I think the old form list is much more useful and informative, so providing both versions is certainly a good thing in my book.

So overall i think some of your ideas would really add to the player profile screen :thup:

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Definite yes for 1 and 4 :thup: Should be added to help and it will definitely help players imo.

2 is quite vague because 'Important stats' for a position differs from person to person.

I prefer 3 the way it is, mayve with an addition of short passing, but that's just a personal opinion.

Overall, well done Arsenal :thup:

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Nice tool tips! Can't believe that fella can't get a cap for Reunion!

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Great ideas Arsenal_2111. I espicially think that FM should introduce your idea of having the option to put key stats in bold. :thup:

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Having just pressed 'Submit', I've realised quite how long this post became - apologies

Apology not accepted - if you're going to write quality suggestions like that, don't apologize for anything! :thup:

Your screenies for 1.) actually demonstrate the problem a bit - "How fast a player runs" doesn't clear up anything - does that mean how quick he is in action, how fast he runs the 40, or how fast he runs the 100, or something else? Its very tough to explain each attribute in a short phrase or so ... but I'm quite a fan of the mouse-over information; a bigger pop-up with a bit more information might be able to accomplish the task.

On 2.), I wouldn't limit it to merely Technical attributes; I think its fair to list Jumping for a central defender, or Creativity for a playmaking midfielder. What would you do for a player listed as natural at four different positions, though? I've got at least one on my squad at the moment, and there are pretty big differences between what I want for a DL and an AML.

3.) I don't agree with; I don't mind Free Kicks and Penalties, because we're already familiar with them. What's not clear is, does a goal kick count as a "Free Kick," or is it lumped under "Kicking"?

I'm also not sure why we can't see all of the attributes an outfield player has - I mean, surely they are there and used, just not visible, right? For example, if I send my keeper up to "Challenge Keeper" in the 91st minute while down a goal, he has Off The Ball responsible for his positioning, and Heading responsible for his header just like an outfield player. I think it solves some of the problem(s) you're looking to address if we're allowed to see those.

4.) was my favorite suggestion - simple, effective, and the best of both worlds. Brilliant.

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Thank you for the effort and the input, Arsenal_2111 :)

Great suggestions which would add to the game. I'm a bit unsure about the third, but still.

:thup:

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Thanks for all the feedback :thup:

I'll only cover the points that have critical feedback, but I appricate all :)

"Tooltips" are such a good idea - great info, little effort to include them. The "key attributes" is a bit more difficult because there's such a difference of opinion in which are the most important attributes. What I would like is more customizable filters and stats screens - FML does an awesome job of this - that I can use to create those lists of key attributes or order attributes lists.

I'm sure that, when programming the match engine and similar, there is a part that says how important each stat is to a player.

But it would be better to have some values preset, and then have the ability to change the key attributes when you start the game (or similar)

Some solid ideas, i generally like the help these could give to users.

1. Good idea, the attributes can seem to be a bit vague. Although turning of this feature would be needed for me as i like to hover my mouse over stats when i'm checking out a player so would find it a bit annoying if some text was obscuring my view. That's just a personal preference.

2. I really like this idea, it would also be useful for comparing players so you can focus on the important stats and not be subconciously swayed by those high eg. throw-in/corner/flair stats

3. I agree the penalty and free kick stats aren't required. But tbh i don't really think goalies have a range of passing, they generally pass short or hoof it. Its pretty rare to see a goalie do a successful long range pass so i'm not sure how useful your new proposed stats would be.

4. I think the old form list is much more useful and informative, so providing both versions is certainly a good thing in my book.

So overall i think some of your ideas would really add to the player profile screen

3. I don't think your point here is correct, I would say that most keepers use both of these when kicking. For instance, from goal kicks, most would go long and having a low 'Long Passing' stat could mean a lot are misplaced. Same with 'Short Passing', low would mean a lot of short passes are missed.

Definite yes for 1 and 4 Should be added to help and it will definitely help players imo.

2 is quite vague because 'Important stats' for a position differs from person to person.

I prefer 3 the way it is, mayve with an addition of short passing, but that's just a personal opinion.

Overall, well done Arsenal

2. Is covered above, perhaps for the first year it could be set but the next year it could be customisable.

Nice tool tips! Can't believe that fella can't get a cap for Reunion!

I know, it's terrible. But I suppose he has only been in the game since January (came in as 20 y/o, strange). Hopefully he'll start playing for them soon :D

Apology not accepted - if you're going to write quality suggestions like that, don't apologize for anything!

Your screenies for 1.) actually demonstrate the problem a bit - "How fast a player runs" doesn't clear up anything - does that mean how quick he is in action, how fast he runs the 40, or how fast he runs the 100, or something else? Its very tough to explain each attribute in a short phrase or so ... but I'm quite a fan of the mouse-over information; a bigger pop-up with a bit more information might be able to accomplish the task.

On 2.), I wouldn't limit it to merely Technical attributes; I think its fair to list Jumping for a central defender, or Creativity for a playmaking midfielder. What would you do for a player listed as natural at four different positions, though? I've got at least one on my squad at the moment, and there are pretty big differences between what I want for a DL and an AML.

3.) I don't agree with; I don't mind Free Kicks and Penalties, because we're already familiar with them. What's not clear is, does a goal kick count as a "Free Kick," or is it lumped under "Kicking"?

I'm also not sure why we can't see all of the attributes an outfield player has - I mean, surely they are there and used, just not visible, right? For example, if I send my keeper up to "Challenge Keeper" in the 91st minute while down a goal, he has Off The Ball responsible for his positioning, and Heading responsible for his header just like an outfield player. I think it solves some of the problem(s) you're looking to address if we're allowed to see those.

4.) was my favorite suggestion - simple, effective, and the best of both worlds. Brilliant.

1. The descriptions I did were brief, I'm sure SI could come up with some better ones. Something that could be more useful is clicking on the chosen attribute that brings up a small pop-up similar to

2. I didn't think of ones like that, but I agree after thinking about it that there are some mental/physical stats that are more important than others are.

3. A possible way of finding a compromise would be to have one 'Set Peices' stat that has the average from Penalty Taking and Free Kick Taking. Then, if it was to be partnered with number 1, you could click on it to bring out the pop up that has both the Penalty Taking and Free Kick Taking. This would make the profile page clearer whilst still supplying all the information to you if you wanted it.

I'll try and do some more screenies later, if someone doesn't understand anything I've said?

Again, thanks for the feedback. :)

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Nice suggestions...I do like the tool tips, although it worth pointing out that explanations of the attributes are in the manual (and the GK kicking stat is described as the distance a GK can attain from a kick, not accuracy).

I think the key, rather than new interfaces or graphics is customisableness (yup, it is a word ;). With so much info, it would be could to be able to put what we want where we want...and also the ability to write a 1/2 sentence summary of each player that we can write displayed on the profile page: e.g. 'bottles big games', 'on a good run of form' or 'can't speak the lingo'.

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Nice suggestions...I do like the tool tips, although it worth pointing out that explanations of the attributes are in the manual (and the GK kicking stat is described as the distance a GK can attain from a kick, not accuracy).

I think the key, rather than new interfaces or graphics is customisableness (yup, it is a word ;). With so much info, it would be could to be able to put what we want where we want...and also the ability to write a 1/2 sentence summary of each player that we can write displayed on the profile page: e.g. 'bottles big games', 'on a good run of form' or 'can't speak the lingo'.

So, in that case, maybe instead of Short Passing and Long Passing there could be Kick Power and Kick Accuracy?

I hadn't thought of that, but I do like the idea of a brief notes section. Currently there is a notes page for every player, but I have never used it mainly because it is a lot of work.

I believe the best way to do this is to have an extra section under 'Injuries', 'Bans', 'Fitness' and 'International Status'.

I've done a couple of screenies quick, they aren't of the highest quality because I'm going to work in 15 minutes.

Notes Section Unfilled

and

Notes Section Filling In

and

Notes Section Filled In

Views on these? I'll write up something in my OP when I get back, shouldn't be working long.

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3. Clear up Goalkeeper stats

Some goalkeeper stats in this game are either unclear or unnecessary in my opinion.

There are 'Free Kick Taking' and 'Penalty Taking' for goalkeepers. In all honesty, how many people use both of these? I feel it would be better to have them combined in a 'Set Peice Taking' stat, which would enable my next idea to be implemented.

'Kicking', for example, is very vague and could refer to goal kicks, kicks under pressure or short kicks. I feel that, to fill the extra space left by combining the two set peice taking stats, the 'Kicking' attribute could be split into a 'Long Passing' and 'Short Passing'. These would both help when setting team instructions to do with distribution, and would generally make kicking for Goalkeepers clearer.[/b]

I love everything else you suggested. Tooltips for the stats would be a nice touch and hi-liting the appropriate stats based on position would be a great addition. I can't cite a source, but I'm pretty sure that the new 'Tactical Wizard' does this and will most likely be included in FM10.

The reason I quoted this particular piece is that I am not sure I understand why you want to merge these two stats together. If it is just to free up space so we can have two passing stats, than I understand, but to say that taking a Free Kick & a Penalty are the same is not correct.

My current keeper has a Free Kick score of 18 (highest on my team and has a Decisions & Composure skill in the 17 - 18 range). He has scored 3 DFK goals for me this season already and has acquired around 10 assists already from IFK. If he were to have these same statistics put into his Penalty ranking he would be among my teams top scorers! As much fun as that would be to see, it isn't accurate.

There have been a small number of keepers in history who are feared for their long range free kicks, but a much smaller number who are known to consistently take penalty shots.

So, in that case, maybe instead of Short Passing and Long Passing there could be Kick Power and Kick Accuracy?

Really like this. They are VERY different attributes.

Also really like your Notes being on the profile. Would save more clicks to his Notes section.

Responds well to criticism; been fined 1 weeks pay for Red Card on last offense (05/25/09), etc...

love it.

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You know, I always get excite when people have done their own mock-ups or put their ideas into practice in their suggestions, as it shows 2 things:

1. They've really thought about the idea.

2. They've shown us exactly how it would look, and given SI a starting base.

This idea gets a :thup::thup::thup: from me :thup:

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Kick accuracy is currently passing+technique, with the "kicking" attribute used for power. It does need to be clearer. I agree with Amaroq- we need to be able to see all technical attributes. If this was done using a drop down above "mental" to flick to technical attributes, I think it would work...

Bolding "key" attributes: About this time last year somebody suggested using a highlighter for this. The mock ups for it looked really good. I think he also suggested allowing the user to define what the key attributes were for each position.

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Am I the only one that thinks there is no need for so many attributes in the first place?

For example, Acceleration and Pace. Surely they could be lumped together as Speed (Velocity if you're being picky ;)). As I understand it - Acceleration is used to calculate how quickly a player can go from standing to top speed. Top speed is defined by Pace (and other attributes if knowing FM's love of complexity). Surely if a player has an acceleration of 20 and a Pace of 12 then his overall Speed could be defined by the average ( (20 + 12) / 2 = 16 ). I'm being a bit crude because;

a) I don't know how SI actually calculate a players pace in the ME and;

b) I think a players height and weight should have a bearing on a players speed as well as other factors like Stamina.

Just a thought. :)

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HL7- on the face of it, that's a good idea. However, what do you do about the player who starts slowly but can be quite quick eventually?

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The reason I quoted this particular piece is that I am not sure I understand why you want to merge these two stats together. If it is just to free up space so we can have two passing stats, than I understand, but to say that taking a Free Kick & a Penalty are the same is not correct.

My current keeper has a Free Kick score of 18 (highest on my team and has a Decisions & Composure skill in the 17 - 18 range). He has scored 3 DFK goals for me this season already and has acquired around 10 assists already from IFK. If he were to have these same statistics put into his Penalty ranking he would be among my teams top scorers! As much fun as that would be to see, it isn't accurate.

There have been a small number of keepers in history who are feared for their long range free kicks, but a much smaller number who are known to consistently take penalty shots.

Not at all, I appriciate that they are very different. But they aren't exactly the most important stat, so I feel combining them and making it possible to see both by clicking on the stat (like I suggested above) is the best option. I'm going to update this section

Kick accuracy is currently passing+technique, with the "kicking" attribute used for power. It does need to be clearer. I agree with Amaroq- we need to be able to see all technical attributes. If this was done using a drop down above "mental" to flick to technical attributes, I think it would work...

Bolding "key" attributes: About this time last year somebody suggested using a highlighter for this. The mock ups for it looked really good. I think he also suggested allowing the user to define what the key attributes were for each position.

But there is no 'passing' stat for Keepers, so that can't be it?

I don't suppose you could find a link for that could you? I'd be interested to see it, as I don't remember that thread. Cheers :thup:

Am I the only one that thinks there is no need for so many attributes in the first place?

For example, Acceleration and Pace. Surely they could be lumped together as Speed (Velocity if you're being picky ;)). As I understand it - Acceleration is used to calculate how quickly a player can go from standing to top speed. Top speed is defined by Pace (and other attributes if knowing FM's love of complexity). Surely if a player has an acceleration of 20 and a Pace of 12 then his overall Speed could be defined by the average ( (20 + 12) / 2 = 16 ). I'm being a bit crude because;

a) I don't know how SI actually calculate a players pace in the ME and;

b) I think a players height and weight should have a bearing on a players speed as well as other factors like Stamina.

Just a thought. :)

Maybe a tick option, one for all stats and one for simple stats? I think getting rid of some stats altogether is a step backwards, like removing the 2D would be. I think there should be an option for both, one for people who like it complicated and one for those looking for a simple option.

Regarding b, this can vary from player to player. For example, Tevez isn't the smallest player but he can run all day, and Adebayor is tall yet fast. It would take a lot of work to make it work.

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Interesting read :thup: Some good ideas there which would come in useful. Not as sure about 3 though, I think that goalkeeper stats are okay as they are, at least they need to have penalty taking as a separate attribute.

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I've developed the opening post to show some other idea's, I've developed the Goalkeeper section as well as the description page. I've also added the notes part in.

I'll develop 'Important Stats' later :)

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very interesting ideas here arsenal. I like the idea of being able to add notes on the players profile screen instead of going through the tree to find the notes section for each player. Yhis would make me use the notes more

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Nice thoughts there..

It would be nice if the user could choose the important stats for every position by himself though!

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Erm, I might be wrong here, but there is a tip/tutorial/help button which tells you a lot of this information :x

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Love the first 4 ideas. Would love to see them in the game, especially the form list. Cant really comment of number 5 as i dont really use the notes section anyway but good ideas nevertheless

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Nice thoughts there..

It would be nice if the user could choose the important stats for every position by himself though!

Like I said above, I am going to develop this point and raise this as a possible suggestion. I'm not sure how this could be done though, I'm going over a couple of options in my head and when I know which one I think would be best I will write it up.

Erm, I might be wrong here, but there is a tip/tutorial/help button which tells you a lot of this information :x

I've got no idea, I don't like the tutorial and it isn't exactly accessible. If I'm being honest, I don't think many people that play FM use the tutorial, as often it is very patronising and points out the obvious. It can be annoying having little popups telling you to select your team on the team selection page. I feel having them right in front of you will make them used more, and I think most people would want to use these over preferences.

Love the first 4 ideas. Would love to see them in the game, especially the form list. Cant really comment of number 5 as i dont really use the notes section anyway but good ideas nevertheless

I don't use it either, because it is too hidden away and I will just forget about something I have written. So having a small note section right in front of you could lead to it being used more, I know I would use this. I also think that having the notes avalible on the squad screen could be very useful, for the reasons explained in my OP.

Again, thanks to everyone for the comments :)

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I understand what you mean about the notes being hidden away and that is true. I suppose if they were there in front of you you would probably more inclined to use them. They would be handy to monitor things such as tiredness is matches as you have shown in your mock ups

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These are good Jammy:thup: , don't you have some exams this summer?:D

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Thanks mate (hi btw:))

Yep, I had three a couple of weeks ago (RE, Biology, PE) and got Physics, Chemistry and Maths in another 3 weeks - why? :)

I've found what I think would be the best way to do this, but I need to do the screenies first. Will be up asap

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Yeah hi:), we haven't seen to each other in a while. Well maybe you should be revising:p, Btw was your biology on the 20th?

As I said these are really good and very simple tbh.

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HL7- on the face of it, that's a good idea. However, what do you do about the player who starts slowly but can be quite quick eventually?

Looking back Pace/Acceleration probably wasn't the best example :D

Maybe a tick option, one for all stats and one for simple stats? I think getting rid of some stats altogether is a step backwards, like removing the 2D would be. I think there should be an option for both, one for people who like it complicated and one for those looking for a simple option.

Regarding b, this can vary from player to player. For example, Tevez isn't the smallest player but he can run all day, and Adebayor is tall yet fast. It would take a lot of work to make it work.

You make a fair point. Perhaps removal wouldn't be the best way to go. How about tooltips that breakdown attributes when highlighted?

IN my original example I stated that someone with 19 acc and 12 pac would approximately have 16 speed. When this attribute is highlighted maybe a player description could be given to the player;

ie, "Player x is has incredible acceleration but his overall pace is average."

If anything it would stop all the moans about Defender X with 12 acc and pace roasting player Y with 20 for both :D

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Excellent work OP, you presented your ideas carefully and put a lot of work into that. I just read through the post in its updated form and I like your suggestions.

I'd been thinking about a few of them myself in the past, but I think that with time they might actually hinder new players. The 'highlight stats' is a good example of this. Say that the game asked a player if he was new to the game when it was first run, and this was enabled by default for new players. I think it might breed too much of an over-dependence on narrow thinking when they're viewing players.

Most experienced FM players will know by habit what stats are important, but that's not really what I'm getting at. It's more that as you play the game you get a sense of what players need, by position, because of their physicality, or because of how you want them to slot into your team. Sometimes it's not as simple as looking at the highlighted stats and concluding 'ah, he has much better pace than this guy, his acceleration is the same, and he's a lot better at crossing'. There are other considerations, as in, every other stat needs to be looked at ideally if you're making a signing, to see how they interact (as well as consistency, previous league performances, their personality, and the scouting reports, and so on). Personally I like to watch the players in action in games and judge them like that. If you know the player in real life, then if SI's stats are accurate enough, this is also how a lot of people play the game.

It's the same with the overview analysis polygon. I've actually recoloured mine so that the background behind it is shaded gradually with sectors marking the player's overall skill in that area - from white in the middle to red at the edges. Without that you'd only look at the lines and it's too linear. With the gradient (which I created based off looking at loads of players polygons and seeing where their lines fell) you can make judgements about what level they're at. Only the players which break into the very edge areas of the polygon are top class, but it's not a simple distinction across the whole shape.

5. Notes

Your comment about notes is spot on. I actually have a pad of paper as I'm sure many do which is where I jot down everything. But it's difficult to manage what's going on. I have a load of formations which I vary from match to match, and each one is accompanied by notes saying who does what. It's all very cluttered and having actual notes visible much easier for every option in the game (not just players' screens) would make things so much better.

Finally, I basically think that FM has not changed as much as it should do in terms of interface. Everyone has sort of grown to love or accept the database style, which is really the only way of doing things, but at the same time, it's hardly user friendly. I get the impression that SI aren't really keen in doing massive improvements. There are improvements usually, but they're mostly cosmetic or fairly minor. Nothing world-shattering. If the game engine is being improved through 3D and beyond... why not improve the other side of the game, the user interface. The game could be improved massively if things like the tactics screen were adjusted.

I wonder if you would like to work together on seeing how other bits of the interface could be improved?

Just as an example of one of my ideas, on the tactics screen, I'm sure that there could be a better option than the current sliders and tickboxes system. Something more organic, like for example 'closing down'. You know from experience sort of what it does in different scenarios. It tells the players what height up the pitch to go closing down, it effects how they mark zonally, and so on. But it's basically not really something a slider can effectively demonstate. Why not have a player icon on the pitch which you can drag up and down to show where he's going to go chasing the ball? For zonal marking, how about defining actual zones that players will cover, as in real life? (the game is bugged in this aspect because players do stupid things when they are crossing into others' zonal areas).

There's so many ways in which SI could work on the UI...

edit: I remembered the major thing that I prefer in FIFA MANAGER's interface (which overall I find clunkier), and that's the formation system that means you can drag players all over the pitch and they don't 'snap' into place. In Football Manager, the formation pitch is actually not so much where the players will play but the role they are going to play. For example if you play two CMs and a DM, the DM might be playing just as high up as the CMs; if he's a particularly attacking player who has the 'gets forward at all times' trait, then he might even be up on the edge of the box at times. Or whatabout your attacking midfielders, you put them where you might expect wingers to play, but they'll position themselves depending on the other settings, like how attacking they are, or whether they are man marking, or whatever - not where you drag them.

Having the formation screen dictate the roles is messy. And there's no way to strictly specify a formation in game - as in FIFA where you can say to a player 'I want you to drop into this hole there'. FM diehards might argue that the sliders will control this to an extent, and that is true, although it's usually less than exacting. But for anyone who has actually played in a team or coached a team, you know that there's a whiteboard in that dressing room with big arrows all over it which tells the players exactly where they should be standing at whatever point! This is missing in FM.

It's a massive drawback for the game.

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Harmonica - Fantastic post mate, welcome to the forums too :thup:

Saying that people could become too reliant on this is right, they could. But, to be honest, that is the point of it, to help the user with the game which, let's be honest, is quite a complicated one.

A way to stop people being too reliant on it could be to add a note on the screen you select the stats, or even in the SITV, saying that the stats highlighted/bolded/starred are the most important stats for a player in each position, but to remember that other stats are important as well.

Onto your second point, I think you may be underestimating the current apperance of FM. Whilst I agree that it does look spreadsheet like, and could confuse some people who are new to the game, after a short space of time it becomes a lot clearer. Personally I prefer the 'spreadsheet' feel, it has everything on display which I feel actually helps new users instead of confusing them more.

As you mentioned the tactics, sliders and tickboxes, there is a 'Tactics Helper' in Football Manager Live which works very well and isn't slider related. I would like this to be brought into normal FM before long, and I don't think it will be long before it is. That will massively improve useability, and make the tactics screen much easier for those who find the current system overpowering.

I'd be interested to hear some of your ideas about how the graphics side of FM could be improved, maybe by PM though because this thread is focussing on the Player Profile page, for now at least. ]This thread, by Stan Petrov, always comes up when talking about the graphical side of the game, and I think you may be interested in reading about that.

Lastly, your third point. I reckon more freedom with formations is the way forward, we had more when we would use arrows to make a player move into striker from AMC, for example. Unfortunately these didn't work with the match engine, so they were removed, but I would love to see them make a come back as they made tactics so much easier to me and gave more freedom when setting roles. I'm not sure about letting the person put players wherever they want, there are currently 25 (+1 for GK) places to put 10 players, which I think is enough. If this was coupled with the arrows it would allow many more positions, as a player playing ML with a farrow is a completely different player to an AML. Each of these 25 outfield positions could previously use arrows both forwards, backwards and sidewards, which means there were 75 different ways a player could play. So, instead of allowing the user to drag and drop as they please, I would prefer for the arrows to comeback.

:thup:

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tool tips are great but you must only use them where required. for the explanation of each stat i believe this is overkill.

for example, i and many other people like to hover over a stat when looking at them. how annoying if a tool tip kept popping up all the time? even if it disappears after 3 seconds.

this sort of information is a prime candidate for putting in the in game help. that way, its there but not intrusive.

for the gk stats example i dont believe its necessary to have a kicking power stat. how exactly would that affect the match engine? how would the resourchers gain that information with any accuracy?

same for kicking accuracy.

i like the kicking stat as it merely says how good the keeper is at distribution via kicking

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What do you mean when you say you hover over a stat when looking at it?

Another option for this is to make it optional - I don't hover over stats so I would turn it on, but those who hover over stats could turn it off - similar to the 'Identify key attributes' selection box.

For kicking power, researchers would judge how far they kick the ball. Pretty self explanatory, that one.

For kicking accuracy they would judge how often they got it to one of their own players. Obviously there is no way of knowing who he wants to get the ball to when it is going that far, so it would have to be judged on the outcome, and not take the motive into consideration.

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Harmonica - Fantastic post mate, welcome to the forums too

:thup:

Thanks for your response. About FM's appearance - I like it, so I wasn't really underestimating it. I think everyone who has played CM/FM for years has grown fond of it. And practically speaking, although you could come up with changes (like what EA are trying with their game), it'll take a while before anyone makes something as efficient for a database driven game.

I had checked out that other thread in the past. I like some of those ideas, but they are mostly cosmetic. I guess my frustration is that I can see the potential for some relatively small adjustments and additions to the FM user interaface which would actually improve the game tenfold. We've obviously seen progress over the years, but if you look at FM08 -> FM09, the changes are extremely slight. The additions they added to the game, for example the press interaction, aren't exactly handled as well as they should be and don't really represent more than a surface level feature.

What I'm trying to say is that we can all talk about how we would do up the presentation side of things, but when it comes down to it, it's more about SI enhancing the underlying game. Relatively speaking, although they have a better core game than most, they are quite slow at advancing the game year on year - almost on the same level as EA when they dominated the FIFA franchise and it grew rather stagnant. I think SI are definitely at risk of being overtaken by EA with their next FIFA MANAGER.

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Thanks for your response. About FM's appearance - I like it, so I wasn't really underestimating it. I think everyone who has played CM/FM for years has grown fond of it. And practically speaking, although you could come up with changes (like what EA are trying with their game), it'll take a while before anyone makes something as efficient for a database driven game.

I had checked out that other thread in the past. I like some of those ideas, but they are mostly cosmetic. I guess my frustration is that I can see the potential for some relatively small adjustments and additions to the FM user interaface which would actually improve the game tenfold. We've obviously seen progress over the years, but if you look at FM08 -> FM09, the changes are extremely slight. The additions they added to the game, for example the press interaction, aren't exactly handled as well as they should be and don't really represent more than a surface level feature.

What I'm trying to say is that we can all talk about how we would do up the presentation side of things, but when it comes down to it, it's more about SI enhancing the underlying game. Relatively speaking, although they have a better core game than most, they are quite slow at advancing the game year on year - almost on the same level as EA when they dominated the FIFA franchise and it grew rather stagnant. I think SI are definitely at risk of being overtaken by EA with their next FIFA MANAGER.

I think you're being unfair here - the press interaction (press conferences) are new this year and it is unfair to expect them to be the complete article. Whilst I agree that some areas of the game haven't advanced as much as they should have (Team talks in particular) I think this is mainly due to the introduction of bigger features. I would imagine that for FM10 one of the main aims is to develop existing areas of the game. Of course, you can't expect SI to only do this and to not include any new features because there are some who will not see improvements as a reason to buy the game.

There are some, like me, who appriciate changes that are made can be as good as new features, but I would suggest that the majority don't. Because of this, SI need to add in features ahead of developing areas that work well, if not fantastically.

For FM09, the 3D match engine was a HUGE step forward for SI - other new features were added such as press conferences and retired squad numbers.

You have to remember that a game can only go so far. FM has so many features in it that it can't include too many more. I mean, what else in football could be added to FM as a new main feature? Not many things, as far as I can see.

I don't think FIFA Manager will ever take over FM. Football Manager is the most realistic football game in the world, and has the best database avalible. FIFA may be more 'fun' with wives, cars and children, but as a management game nothing beats FM. The only competition for now is Championship Manager, and they have lost a lot of fans by not releasing 09 - still!

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FIFA MANAGER and CHAMP are not that far off, actually. Yes FIFA has a lot of fluff such as the wives thing, but you're overplaying that - it's only there if you want it. The good things that FIFA MAN does is things like training, player interaction and club management. All of which are basically limited in FM. Years ago, the current FM system of player interaction - of commenting to the press with a one-liner about how he's doing - would have been acceptable. Now it's a bit of a joke, really.

I'm not sure if you think that dragging a few sliders to increase attacking or defending or set pieces is an accurate or interesting way of effecting training, but I certainly don't.

FIFA MANs database isn't as deep as FM but the accuracy of the stats is not too bad, certainly playable. The match engine is the weakest element of FIFA MAN, even though it looks the prettiest. However, the text engine is actually really good. Let's not forget that FM's 3D engine still feels like a prototype, and the next version will be the real test.

There are plenty of things that FM doesn't do that happen in real football.

As for being unfair on them, not at all. When you release a game I think you should have at least developed a feature properly. The press conferences are absolutely trivial. They interact with the database and everything but apart from that it's completely under developed. It's like talking to a machine who spits out about 5 questions. Useless.

edit: as for CHAMP, at the moment the current version is unproven, they've done a lot of talking and released a few shots but obviously the proof is in the pudding, of which we've still got nothing. But all the things they've been saying are spot on as far as where football management games need to go as a genre. If they can deliver, great.

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FIFA MANAGER and CHAMP are not that far off, actually. Yes FIFA has a lot of fluff such as the wives thing, but you're overplaying that - it's only there if you want it. The good things that FIFA MAN does is things like training, player interaction and club management. All of which are basically limited in FM. Years ago, the current FM system of player interaction - of commenting to the press with a one-liner about how he's doing - would have been acceptable. Now it's a bit of a joke, really.

I'm not sure if you think that dragging a few sliders to increase attacking or defending or set pieces is an accurate or interesting way of effecting training, but I certainly don't.

FIFA MANs database isn't as deep as FM but the accuracy of the stats is not too bad, certainly playable. The match engine is the weakest element of FIFA MAN, even though it looks the prettiest. However, the text engine is actually really good. Let's not forget that FM's 3D engine still feels like a prototype, and the next version will be the real test.

There are plenty of things that FM doesn't do that happen in real football.

As for being unfair on them, not at all. When you release a game I think you should have at least developed a feature properly. The press conferences are absolutely trivial. They interact with the database and everything but apart from that it's completely under developed. It's like talking to a machine who spits out about 5 questions. Useless.

edit: as for CHAMP, at the moment the current version is unproven, they've done a lot of talking and released a few shots but obviously the proof is in the pudding, of which we've still got nothing. But all the things they've been saying are spot on as far as where football management games need to go as a genre. If they can deliver, great.

I'm sure that almost every FM fan agrees that some of the new features added have not been good enough, and I would say about 90% would want training, team talks, press conferences and the like improving.

I haven't played FIFA or CM enough to judge them fairly, but from what I have seen and heard FM is better than both of them in most areas. Have you played either of them? If so, how is training implemented in them? Personally I don't see how else it would be done, rather than sliders. I'm not saying that sliders is the best way, it is neither the most interesting or accurate way of doing it, but I don't see how it could be significantly improved.

Let's not forget that there is a year between the release of each version of FM - as far as I know most of the time up to the final patch is spent on fixing the previous game and sorting out what is going to change in the new version. You would hope that in future SI wouldn't have to spend as much time fixing bugs so they could spend more time on the next version, and this is certainly what SI are trying to do by starting BETA testing so much earlier than normal. The extra time spent getting the game BETA tested will mean more bugs will be picked up on and fixed before the game is released, which could potentially lead to an extra two months or so focussed on the next game.

This extra time could significantly improve FM, the extra time could be spent developing a existing module of the game.

The game is heading in the right direction, personally I think it will be a while before CM and FIFA catch up with FM.

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How training is done in FIFA MAN: you tell the players in your team what to focus their training on. That's the gist of it, there's slightly more depth to it. The effect is that you're more hands on with each of them.

In the latest CM, we're told that there's going to be quite detailed system where you can run the exact training schedule (down to where the players are running, who's standing where and who's having a shot at the goalie, and so on!), and this will improve the appropriate attributes - or it will end up giving them a kind of lopsided result if you train too hard. It sounds great.

I've played FIFA MAN for a few years and yes the latest one is totally playable. It's not got the same feeling as playing FM, it's not as good, but it's getting there.

Nobody has played the latest CM, and the previous versions were pretty bad.

I realise that a football management game is never going to be a game which mirrors the activity of a manager, but what it has to do is give you that sense of being that guy in the dugout in control of a team. FM is great in a lot of aspects (scouting, the matches themselves, the way leagues and transfers play out), but when it comes to training, it's a case of setting up your default regimes per position (or downloading them from the forums!), picking what players go with what regime, and then ever so slightly tweaking the intensity over the season. Then you sit back and ignore it unless anything else happens. At best it's a feature you don't mess around with.

I don't really think that dragging sliders gives a sense of a manager and coaches working with the players. It's an organic process. At some point hopefully we'll get games where the players are telling their coach how they want to train (actually this happens to a degree in FIFA MAN: they pick the attributes they train on unless you suggest otherwise), and there's more of a relationship.

I don't think we can really speculate on SI's dev process.

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Absolutely. BLoody. Briilliant. Loved all the ideas.

Ths just about beats Stans graphics thread.

SI please please pay atention to this for FM10/11.

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i like the idea on showing what stats are good for the position as im not too sure on what stats are good for some positions

btw how did you get regens from reunion

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i like the idea on showing what stats are good for the position as im not too sure on what stats are good for some positions

btw how did you get regens from reunion

The problem with this is that what stats are good depends on the way your team plays. You can say that acceleration and crossing are the most important attributes for a ML/R but if I'm playing a short passing game with small strikers I may want the wingers to rather have high passing/decisions, etc.

I think that as long as all the attributes are properly explained people should figure out what is most important for their team.

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