[Success with no team instructions in FM22?]

This thread by @herne79 contains plenty of useful info on setting up a tactic with no TIs. It's from FM19, but the theory is still sound.

A lot of it is around selecting cohesive roles that suit your players, whilst taking their attributes and traits into consideration.

[FM22 - struggling with tactics in lower leagues. Any ideas?]

I like to start (as a lot of people do) with the defence. I had a LLM save in FM21 with a team that had the fastest defenders in the league on average. It's vital that you play to whatever strengths you might have, so I opted for an ultra high line and short, disciplined passing (rarely recommended in LLM tactic threads). Keep the ball high up the pitch, score from set pieces and beat the opposition in a foot race when they pump a long ball over the top. We finished 3rd out of 12, despite being predicted to finish bottom.

Basically, look at the tools you have, figure out how to amplify their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses. It might seem like it flies in the face of "best practice", but successful stories never come about by doing what everyone else does. Come up with a logical plan and go from there.

[Question about attacking width]

17 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

High width:

Forces opposition block to move about more from side to side, tiring out and opening gaps. If the defenders stay in there position then your wide players get loads of space to put in a good cross or dribble 1v1

Spot on. This is all part of Pep's style. Move the ball around with short, quick passes, use the full width (and sometimes verticality) of the pitch, open gaps in the centre and profit.

I watched All or Nothing - Man City a few weeks ago and noticed something that was said in one of the episodes. Basically the demand was 1 or 2 touch passes in the centre of the field and half spaces. Once the ball moves to the flank a player may dribble, but only if it's a 1-on-1. If a player is being doubled up on then they look to recycle and keep probing.

Obviously high width can be used with direct passing too, where you'd look to get the ball quickly to wingers that are high and wide, then look to get crosses in for attackers in the centre.

23 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

Low width:

Players closer together, easier to keep hold of ball. Easier defensive transition for a counter press as more players can surround the ball , and for regroup, as they're laterally closer to their defensive positions.

This is definitely more suited to quick breaks, Atletico style. When you think of Simeone's Atleti, they have their extremely compact defensive posture, then counter quickly through link players in central areas. Traditionally he'd use playmaker types on the flanks in Koke and Arda Turan, who are naturally comfortable in central areas, and would look to swiftly move the ball forward to Griezmann, Costa and Torres.

Using shorter passing with narrower width would definitely be a viable strategy for ball retention - Spain's defensive tiki taka used to win the World Cup in 2010 springs to mind. Not a lot of width, a lot of central ball players clustered close together. Joan Capdevila (Jordi Alba in 2012, too) was the main wide outlet as an offensive left wing-back. This is an example of using narrow width, but supplementing it with contrasting roles and duties to facilitate some widthand flexibility to be added to the team.

[Question about attacking width]

It always seems really odd to me that people would suggest shorter passing can't be used with extreme width. As long as you have enough bodies to provide support and create dynamic link up options then you'd be able to do it. Naturally, you need players with good attributes to pull it off as it is an intense way of playing, but find a video on Youtube of that Barcelona 5-0 Real Madrid match from 2010 and you'll see a side using short passing with extreme width.

[Feels like I'm not getting the best out of a player...]

How have your results been? If you're winning and everyone else in the team is performing, then you're looking for problems where there aren't really any.

You've got Kane playing with a support duty, while everyone else around him is more attack minded. He'll look to hang back more with his roaming role, while everyone else pushes past him into scoring positions. The two central midfielders are both deep supporting roles, one of which is a ball winner who won't provide him any any ammo. You've basically got him set up as a pseudo-creator in this system.

[[FM2022 BETA] Positive team mentality + Support duty = ...Very Attacking individual mentality?!]

59 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

The game is moving in a right direction where tactics are made up of logical combinations of roles and duties. Gone are the days in FM18 where you could build a successful tactic with all support duties. Those made little sense. And shouldn't really work with current ME. You just wouldn't have any penetration in the final third.

Penetration can be accomplished through PPMs and PIs. Telling a support duty player to get further forward will still give you penetrating runs.

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

Also seeing a playmaker with attacking or very attacking individual mentality is not such a bad thing. I know it takes a bit to get mind around but you have to remember that mentality = risk taking so it makes sense to have your False 9 or playmaker with highest level risk taking. 

I'm not sure I agree with your point regarding playmakers needing to be the most risk taking player. I consider Mikel Arteta in Arsene Wenger's 4-1-4-1 system at the beginning of 2014-15 as that sides playmaker, but he was by no means the player taking the most risk. He dictated possession, kept the team organised and distributed play like a quarter-back to allow Ozil, Sanchez, Wilshere and Ramsey to play to their natural offensive skillsets.

In some systems, you would want your playmaker to take a lot of risks (perhaps a more Mourinho style system - think Sneijder at Inter, with a defensive double pivot behind him), but you wouldn't always want your ball magnet to be so carefree and offensive with the ball.

[[Discussion] Are Striker Roles Described Incorrectly?]

1 hour ago, olegmelnikov said:

Yes, agree with you. To be honest, the way of how TF drops deep totally ruined my plan how I want my team to play the first season after promotion. 

Might be obvious, but does he have a PPM like "comes deep to get ball" or are you playing with a shorter passing TI? These things could mean that your TF will come deeper to get the ball.

[[FM22] Matryoshka]

Loving the posts, as always, but the Yaya Toure incident was over Man City only buying him a birthday cake. The Anji connection came about when Toure's agent kicked off to the press about Yaya being offended at being snubbed by City's owners on a trip and cited the (completely unrelated) example of Keremov buying Roberto Carlos the £800,000 car for his birthday.

Amusingly, Carlos' agent responded with "Toure has got enough money to buy 10 or 20 Bugattis. This is about egos."

[Player tutoring in FM22]

3 hours ago, HotPizza87 said:

Honestly I've given up with it since they changed it. I used to farm people for personalities, give them 1k a week with 425k a week after 5 games (and of course they would play exactly 0 games for me) which whilst gamey was very satisfying. Now it's "realistic" and it's anyone's guess how mentoring might go. All of a sudden players with bad personalities become leaders in the dynamics section and then their personalities become endemic throughout the team. Determination can change through squad level determination or random events and suddenly a perfect mentor can become 

Mentoring is a lottery.

This thread from FM20 shows that it is possible to utilise mentoring and acheive desirable results. Obviously it's not as easy to game personality changes as it used to be with tutoring, but I personally didn't like that you could just sign a bunch of guys who would never play to just churn out a bunch of model professionals. I do also think the system has changed slightly since FM20, but it should still work in principle.

[Does anyone here use 'Swap Positions With' regularly? If so, how do you use it?]

In my current save with Forest, I have Joao Carvalho with a personal instruction to play as a TQ at AML and AMC. The team default is set up with IFa and APa in those two positions. In certain games, I'll set Carvalho to swap with whoever is playing in the other position. That way he'll always play as TQ in those spots and it will mix up our patterns of attack, so it's theoretically more confusing for the oppostion to defend.

[Promotion to the Prem - Tactical Advice]

Personally, I'd try and strike a balance of the two.

Don't shift too much if your players are familiar. Sides that tend to perform well after promotion IRL will stick to their guns in terms of long term strategy and get results through PL sides perhaps being unfamiliar with their approach.

Against the top 6, you'll want to be more thoughtful. Even when I play as Arsenal, I'll sometimes switch to a back 5 in order to defend the half spaces better. It's definitely a lot cagier, but when you're defending Sane and Salah, for example, you habve to be cagey.

I remember a save I had on FM11 with Forest where I managed to finish 7th in my first season in the PL playing a high pressing system. In the Championship I was attempting a full on Bielsa rip-off, ultra attacking, very vertical passing and high pressing. When I got to the PL, I dialled it back slightly. A bit less carefree with the ball in attack and I didn't just constantly press. There were certain games where I saw danger signs in the first 15 minutes, so I realised I'd have to close some gaps through small role and duty tweaks and hope for the best.

[[Discussion] Are Striker Roles Described Incorrectly?]

On 17/11/2021 at 05:48, Jack722 said:

I'll add that I don't think a complete forward on attack is necessary either.

Supposedly the CF is an all round striker that can and will do everything. So why do we have two versions of it?

If you wanted your striker to drop deep a bit more and be involved in building, you'd choose f9 or dlf, but if you wanted them not to roam around , but stay up front, you'd pick an AF or P.

I think with CF duties you can start blurring the lines with other roles. Since the CF can do what it wants, I would rather it just have an attack duty. Kind of like the Treq only being on attack because, to play with complete freedom as a forward, you'd probably need a high mentality. 

I like the two options for CF.

With it being a role that requires a larger spread of attributes, it's going to be easier to use at the higher levels of the game. When I think of Complete Forwards IRL, Lewandowski, Ibra and Benzema spring to mind. You still want to allow this sort of players to have the freedom to play an expansive game that utilises the full capabilties of their skillset. You will have games, though, where your strategy would perhaps require them to be more of an enabler type forward, than a guy who is hoovering up chances.

For example, say you're playing with Lewandowski in the early round of the DFB Pokal. Chuck him in as a CFa with creators from wide and deep providing him the bullets and you'll notch up a cricket scoreline.

When you're reaching the business end of the Champions League and perhaps need a bit more measure to your play (a lower individual player mentality, with less inherant risk taking) using him as a CFs means he'll roam around and facilitate the play in a more nuanced manner.

In short, I believe the option to use Complete Forward on support and attack duties is simply to provide the elite players the role is (perhaps) intended for more flexibility in how they can be used, without YOU, the manager, being hamstrung by them only having one option for individual player mentality in the tactics creator.

Hat tip to @The #9.5 for their thoughts on this further up, got my juices flowing on the topic.

[I need help - Conceding Late Goals Pandemic]

6 hours ago, UnreadyMammal said:

Recently started playing FM22 and I think it is a huge improvement on FM21, especially in regards to the match engine (crossing aside), the movement and decision making is significantly better etc. That being said I have been struck with a curse... I concede an obscene amount of late goals. It doesn't matter if I'm managing Manchester United or Gateshead, whether I change the formation, time waste, drop the line deeper or just do nothing. 

For context, I dived into the Create a Club feature, in which I'm currently 15 games into the season, my 1st game in charge I drew 2-2 away to Boston United conceding in the 94th & 96th minute. Oh FM, you cheeky bum you, I thought, still playing with our emotions after all these years. But since then, it just hasn't stopped;

80+ mins Goals Against -  13 (eight 90+ min goal)
80+ mins Goals For - 2 (one 90+ min goal) 

At this point I feel I have tried everything, so any help is extremely welcome. 

Thanks, 
Mammal 

I don't like changing things too much. If I'm in a leading position, then my strategy for that match has clearly worked and doesn't really need much altering.

However, there are a few steps I take to mitigate late concessions. I do keep an eye on the opposition formation at all times. If they make any drastic switches to their shape, I might alter the duty of an attacking full back, for example. Or perhaps swap a supporting wing back's role to full back on support instead. It wouldn't alter my player's individual mentality, but he wouldn't get forward as often, as one of the default PIs for the wing back role.

Tweaking roles and duties will have less impact on your overall shape and gameplan, but can help to make you that little bit more compact in the latter stages of a match.

Something I also like to do is have a "defensive impact sub". Pundits always bang on about having extra firepower on the bench, but it's well worth having a versatile defensive option to bring on with high work rate, stamina, teamwork, aggression, composure and - crucially - determination to come on and lock a game down for your team. Think Arsene Wenger lobbing on extra full backs for wingers in the last few minutes of matches that Arsenal had a tight lead.

Aside from that, perhaps switch to comprehensive or even full match highlights. Keep an eye on where the opposition are building up from, which of their players are causing you the most problems and where your transitions are breaking down, then you can take steps to course correct from there.

[[Discussion] "Use tighter marking" and "get stuck in"]

I'd say tight marking could be used in a lower block, if you're a better side (naturally, I'm thinking of Atletico). It could be useful if you've got defenders with good acceleration and anticipation who can nip in quickly to pinch the ball off a recipient, then launch a swift counter. Less time on the ball for the opposition, but slightly more risk involved with it.

[Help with a LLM tactic Isthmian Premier League Division]

On 13/06/2021 at 00:13, jtibbs20 said:

what position is these DF(s)  ?

deep lying fwd

 

thanks

Defensive Forward.

[[FM22] Arsenal F.C. - Trusting the process?]

2 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I wanted to sell Lacazette, so I'd offered him out. Was pretty disappointed with the response, but the main thing was getting him off the books and freeing up the space in the squad.

For Leno and Aubameyang, I put reasonable asking prices in their Transfer Status and waited. When Newcastle and PSG showed an interest ('wnt'), I offered them out and negotiated a deal. I did the same for Pepe and Xhaka but nobody showed an interest. Maybe I could have pushed it.

That said, I do actually rate Xhaka a lot higher than most people so am happy enough to have him around.

Ahh cool. No idea why, but the logistics of selling players is something that always befuddles me slightly, so thanks for your feedback.

Regarding Xhaka, he certainly is an interesting player in terms of attributes. I actually sort of wrote a post about him on FM21!

[[FM22] Arsenal F.C. - Trusting the process?]

Just wondering @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, was the interest in Auba, Leno and Laca natural or had you transfer listed them or offered them out? Did you attempt to flog Xhaka as well?

[Possession in fm 22]

27 minutes ago, Pattric_b said:

I agree with what O-zil said above, if you want to play a high pressing, possession based tactic you need the right players who compliment that style of play. It's never been more true than this year. Plug and play is fading off into the sunset and people need to start adapting!

This is quite an interesting point, it could be down to how the match engine is visually manifesting the changes in the pressing system. If your players are less capable of pressing (like Ozil and Ronaldo from the example above), it might be the case that the match engine displays it like some of the gifs that have been shown in this thread.

I know that I've used high pressing tactics in the past, lobbed Ozil in with his poor work rate and teamwork, yet (visually) he still presses like the rest of the team with higher attributes for WR and TW. It might look like he's pressing through the visual perception of the match engine, but it's not as successful if someone else was in the position.

[Possession in fm 22]

16 minutes ago, (sic) said:

Are you sure it works?

This is what I usually see with maxed out pressing, LoE, even OIs and marking instructions for players.

See how fast the midfielder receiving the ball gets closed down? Yet the CB hold still with the ball for a few seconds, and nobody is running to close him down.

 

That looks normal to me. The CB is facing the play and has assorted open options to pass to. If the forward raced up to him then he'd just be dragging himself out of position, as #4 would have acres to move into. "Work smarter, not harder" springs to mind.

To me, it looks like a reasonable representation of how pressing traps play out IRL

[FM22 - Juego de Posicion, a positional play variant of Total Football]

I've used low crosses in a couple of different tactics with Arsenal and City in the beta and full game, I'm a big fan of how they work out.

With City, using the tactic created by @04texag I've scored a few really nice near post tap ins that we tend to see them create in real life.

With Arsenal I've been using my own 3-4-2AM-1, with Saka as a CWBa on the left. His interactions with Smith Rowe as the left sided AM pegging the opposition full back lead to so many low cut backs for Saka to put to the near post, it's quite entertaining to watch.

[Nottingham Forest 3 CB suggestion]

I have, but with Arsenal, who's defenders are better ball players than Forest's, so my tactic wouldn't be much use for you.

I'm assuming your back three would be composed of Worrall, Figueredo and McKenna, like Cooper has used since he came in. None of them are great ball players in game, though.

I was at the Blackpool game a few weeks ago, the setup translated into FM in my opinion would be something like Worrall as WCB(d), Figueredo as CB(c) and McKenna as CB(d). Worrall did tend to step out a bit, but didn't get really advanced unless a counter was on. Lowe was definitely the more offensive minded of the wing backs, although this could be as Tyreece John-Jules was offering a more direct threat for Blackpool down Spence's flank.

Yates and Colback screened nicely. Yates' PPMs in game will see him get in to the box a bit, so chuck a conservative role with a support duty on him and play Colback or whoever else you fancy as the pure holder on the side of the more offensive left wing back.

[which mentality is more conducive for a quick and direct counter attacking style and why?]

On 30/10/2021 at 15:58, VinceLombardi said:

I love building quick counter attacking systems and there are a few ways to go about it. 

When it comes to team mentality, remember that it's a starting point and everything else adds or detracts from it. Further, team mentality influences a huge number of things and so a team mentality change can significantly change how a team plays. Also, because team mentality is so influential it should typically be the first thing you determine when building a tactic (along with your general shape) and then use other instructions to dial in and fine tune the tactics. 

Finally, it's important to remember team mentality significantly influences, but is entirely separate from, individual player mentality which is what actually determines a player's base risk taking and behavior on the pitch. Individual player mentality is a function of team mentality, the player's position (CD, STC, etc) and player duty (defend, support, attack) and can be determined by looking at the individual player on the tactic screen. 

In terms of mentality settings, there are two primary ways I build counter attacking systems are:

1) Use a balanced team mentality and then use attack duties on the players you want to participate in the attack.

2) Use an attacking team mentality, but use a lot more support/defend duties to make sure that your more defensive player's mentalities don't get too high.

I would use the first setup as a starting place for a top heavy systems (like a 4-3-3) where your attacking players are already high up the pitch. 

I would use the second setup as a starting space for a more aggressive defensive system that plays a mid block that seeks to regain possession in the middle third.

The real challenge is a low block, bottom heavy formation, like a 4-1-4-1. In those systems you need higher player mentality so that the attacking players get forward quickly on the break. But you also need to keep the mentality lower so that they keep their shape and can absorb the pressure created by the low lines.

In previous FMs, you could accomplish this by playing with the fluid/structured slider. But with that gone, we gotta create it ourselves. The best way I have found is by creating a really structured shape where everybody is fine-tuned for what you need. Unfortunately this often requires a lot of TIs, PIs and testing to work out. 

In this system, your attacking players need to have a high personal mentality so that they get forward (which typically means an attack duty), but then you need to then counter that with instructions like close down less so that they keep their shape in defense. Alternatively you could go with a lower personal mentality (typically a support duty) to get them to play more disciplined in defense, but then you've got to use PIs like get further forward, risky passes, or increasing passing length to get them to play the ball forward aggressively in attack.

As you can see it's a lot of work and tweaking to build this sort of low block bottom heavy formation, which I think contributes to the feelings that FM doesn't really support that playstyle/tactic. It can. It's just a lot of work and really requires a deep understanding of how all the various instructions work and counteract one another.

This is one of the finest posts I've read in a long time on this forum. Really nails the way I like to play the game, but explained in a far more coherant way than I could! Well done.

I genuinely think a lot of newer players should read and understand this post, try it out in their games and then, once they've got a grasp of mentality, roles and duties, move onto adding other tactical options into their systems.

[FM22 - Pressing Has Been Reworked]

21 hours ago, Johan 14 Cruyff said:

If I use a defensive mentality on slightly higher pressing trigger, with a high defensive line, and hard tackling compared to a very attacking mentality  and press much less often with a offside trap, which one presses more ? If I remove hard tacking does that effect the pressing trigger ? If I play a high line with an offside trap does that effect the amount of pressing? If so how much ? We have no clue on this currently. 
 

I think what most people tend to do is ask these questions, try them out in game, study and take notes on the results, then share them with the community. Constructive experimentation.

 

21 hours ago, Johan 14 Cruyff said:

If in real life Pep sets his team to press high and early and ask Rodri to always hold his position then going into the game they know what is going on. In FM we should know based on all the pressing options we have taken we should be able to at least know if Rodri will bomb out of position and press or if he will stay back. Currently we have to guess, e.g so I set up and he bombs on in my game then next game I lower my defensive line by one notch this then makes him hold his position and not press. Sometimes it take so so much trail and error to find out something like that, and that is not what football manager is meant to be about.

One option is to try setting up Rodri with "hold position" and "less pressing" PIs? Why would you change your entire defensive line setting to impact one player?

Have you tried reading the tooltips on the tactic creator when attempting to build tactics? Generally they offer pretty useful pointers on what each instruction does.

[Manchester City Pep Guardiola Analysis and Tactical Recreation]

19 hours ago, Jack722 said:

 

Oh my stars, I love that in-out movement between Walker, Mahrez and De Bruyne.

[Caixa Futebol Academy: Youth Development & Adapting Tactics]

On 14/07/2021 at 23:32, ElJefe4 said:

Doing my almost bi-weekly read through of this thread hoping to pick up a few more tips and I've got yet another question, this time on youth development. Hope you don't mind!

The above post caught my attention. Particularly point 3: "Structure the entire club to facilitate appropriate game time for players at 18".

This is something I've been pondering recently. I have a few players in my Jong Ajax squad who are decent but probably won't be moving any first teamers out of the way this season.

Case in point:

Per Schuurs is a fairly promising player (albeit with clear limitations - poor in the air for a centre back and poor technique for a holding midfielder). 

My initial thought was to give him another season as a starter for Jong Ajax and maybe give him the odd cup game (probably wouldn't reach 10 first team apps), however...

My coaches think that he is already very well-suited to Eredivisie football. 

If you were in this situation, would you be more likely to:
a) give him a loan to an Eredivisie side so he is playing at the highest level possible, or
b) give him game time at a lower level for Jong Ajax, with the benefit of top class coaching, facilities etc.

I'm torn on which would better aid his development. At the moment I'm leaning towards the following policy:
- If a player has good personality and determination, as is the case with Schuurs, then push him to play at the highest possible level. In this case this would mean a loan to an Eredivise side, assuming I can find a side to guarantee first team minutes.
- If a player (of similar current ability) has less than desirable personality and determination, then keep him with Jong Ajax and look to tutor him for another year.

Would love to get a few thoughts on this from you and anyone else who might be reading!

I'd go for option A and send him on loan to the Eredivisie. Make sure any loan has him play as a regular starter, he's at an age where his development will proceed faster with regular gametime at an appropriate level. If that level is the Eredivisie, it makes sense for him to spend time getting regular games at that level.

After the age of 18, regular game time has more benefit to development than training. It makes sense to give him this season on loan, then assess his performance and development and see how he fits into your squad at the start of next season.