bazhsw
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Posts posted by bazhsw
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I guess part of the appeal of LLM for me is the 'get what you are given' element of the first job when you are not well equipped for Football Manager. It can make those early seasons a real slog, especially if the only jobs are with sides who are almost certain to be relegation strugglers.
Of course, I wouldn't want anyone to be playing and not having fun, but there is something about gradually improving your reputation and getting badges and how the players change in their actions towards you.
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3 minutes ago, gam945 said:
How is it a decency to artificially grow and push a product on the basis that "the other gender's equivalent product has more demand"??
Men's football growth is due to demand, while women's football growth is due to political agendas and is mostly artificial. That is the sad reality.
Anyway I've pretty much expressed all my concerns and thoughts on this matter, so good luck SI but I'm out.
Of course there is no historical precedent of a football product being flooded into overseas / new markets through a process of aggressive marketing, overpaying players disproportionately to projected income, in a marketing strategy to create new markets has there.....
It's literally the story of modern football to the detriment of grassroots football in most of the world outside of a few countries in Europe and the Americas. That is the sad reality.
Some facts - there are lots of women who play football. There are professional football leagues for women. In some countries women's football is MORE popular than the men's game. If we are going to have a game about football management it harms NO ONE to include women's football in the game and provides opportunities for new players, both male and female to manage a team they want to.
Representation is REALLY important and good for overall health in the game. Some would argue things haven't changed to much but there was a time that women's toilets weren't even in grounds and racist abuse was openly laughed at. Calling this out was human decency and made the game better - grounds have more people of colour and more women and children than ever now. All SI are doing is reflecting that 'real life' aspiration for decency and placing it in a digital context. At the end of the day it's just a bunch of data and code that no one is forcing anyone to use. If this is the hill to die on I feel sad for you.
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And I won't post much more in this thread because minds can't be changed when one has a closed position, but if someone is this upset about 'politics' in Football Manager, then I hate to break the news about the influence of politics in football in the real world....
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Just now, gam945 said:I call this a political agenda.
I call this basic human decency
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1 minute ago, gam945 said:
Well I'd much enjoy the Nottingham Forest-Birmingham game on Boxing Day 2020 than Lyon ladies against Chelsea ladies, and by far. So you can troll if you want but the reality is that even Nottingham Forest's U15s would trash any women's top side.
There is a certain irony to your trolling comment when pretty much everything you have said in this thread is pretty much trolling the inclusion of the women's leagues into FM and by extension women's sport, and since you carry on referring to 'politics' I can safely assume women as well.
So now that we have established that it IS the same game and we have established that subjective criteria you have invented for inclusion would exclude most of the current game and most football outside of the last ten years then you have moved onto 'who can beat who'. I don't want to be harsh, but using THAT criteria would have a very small (and boring) FM game because now you are using 'who would beat who' as a self-determined boundary for inclusion.
You talk about boycotting and 'politics' but it is you who have made it 'political' when what 95% of the player base will see as 'brilliant - something else to do in the game'.
I have not seen a SINGLE remotely justifiable criticism of this decision that can't be traced back to 'I don't like and I am scared of girls and women'.
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Essentially you are being sexist now. You cannot claim that women's football is a different sport when they play by exactly the same rules with the same pitch as men.
In your head you say it is a different sport then call for changes to the women's game that simply are not necessary or desired.
It's been covered before but if you took a blinkered view of what football should look like based on subjective criteria like 'tactics', 'intensity' or 'technicality' you would exclude most football played all over the world and exclude most of historical football.
For instance, modern football has changed significantly from 30/40 years ago. I imagine some would say today's game is nowhere near as intense as in the old days. That doesn't invalidate modern football, and much of the football i grew up watching isn't invalidated because it was largely 'hoof it'.
It's a silly comparison
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@gam945 why do you assume only women will want to manage a women's team in FM?
I am male, it wouldn't stop me managing a women's team in much the same way the fact that I am British doesn't stop me managing a Mexican side.
Lots of men will manage a women's side, and also gaming (and football) demographics are opening up more and more to women. This could open up a LOT of sales to SI.
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For those who say 'make a women's only game and let it face the market' rather than 'hide' it in the 'main' game, I ask you this.
Would you buy 'Iceland Football Manager', because surely it's inclusion is 'hidden' amongst all those saves where most players pick a big Premier League club. Why not let 'Iceland Football Manager' face the market'?
It is called 'Football Manager'. It doesn't say 'only men's football manager'. Women's football is of a suitable reach and status and professionalism that justifies it's presence. There are so many people tying themselves in knots and upset about this it would be laughable if not for the real life harm these attitudes have
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1 hour ago, Federico said:
I'd rather see it as a different database you can load or don't at the start of a new career. I don't think there will be any kind of cross playing so to say. Just speculations of course.
I think you would be surprised at the level of crossplaying.
I know SI have their data one way or another but there are players who pick a big club or their favourite club and stay there, and other players who leap around jobs and countries all the time, often with mods of missing nations or ridiculous levels of depth in nations in game. I suspect a lot of those players are absolutely rubbing their hands at jumping back and forth between the men's and women's game - especially for long time players who have been 'everywhere' this is a great opportunity for a new experience.
And not aimed at you Frederico specifically but there are a lot of dogwhistles in this thread with concern trolling about the game's development / data and use of phrases like 'agenda' and 'woke' and 'political'. It's transparent as anything.
One could argue NOT including women's football is a bigger 'political' statement than its inclusion right now as it excludes a whole swathe of professional footballers from the world's most immersive football game based on their gender.
I am reminded of two constant complaints about FM.
1) 'when are you going to add game changing new features rather than a glorified database update and...
2) 'when are you going to add more leagues'
This announcement covers both of those criticisms but it appears not those features and not those leagues for some which I can only surmise is rooted in outdated opinions about women in sport
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9 hours ago, -Jef- said:
We gonna act like male football matches are all full of excitement and prestige? Football as a game is void of excitement except 5-10 minutes per game. And female team sports are usually more technically and tactically sound. Just look at WNBA - it is much better product basketball wise. But because 99% of WNBA players don't dunk it's not exciting for the social media viewers.
Also, remove 30k people in the stands and put top 5 league football on regular pitch like they play in sunday league and is it really that much different?
I really like this post in response to 'women's football is boring'. I know we all get different things out of the game but I suspect a significant percentage of this board and football fans can't walk past two teams of under-9's playing football without stopping to watch. We can't walk past a Sunday league game on a park without watching for ten minutes. Lots of us may watch games on the biggest stages but many of us also watch non-league - or ANY football, because it is a universal language. Many of us spend a lot of money on season tickets and travelling away knowing full well the 'quality' and 'excitement' is likely to be boring - indeed, if you wanted excitement you would probably pick a different sport.
And I'm good with that because we all go nuts when it's been 0-0 for 85 minutes and you scab a goal out of nothing, or you are there on that one day when magic truly happens because football is about narratives at almost every level, no matter how much is attempted to be sold back to us as 'elite level excitement'.
Sorry to derail the thread, just think it's worth adding to Jef's brilliant point.
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I think this is brilliant news and will lead to a more immersive and inclusive experience for us players. I do think some of the, 'yes, but...' comments in this thread are really masking something else, but taking a broader approach I do think that the development of FM to support the women's game will lead to benefits experienced by every player (for instance graphics and match engine).
I am one who supports additional leagues, but other leagues are well served by our brilliant modding community and we don't make a case for more inclusion by demanding a different underrepresented group are placed ahead of whatever else is going on.
It's a really positive step, could increase the player base and for those of us who never stay in the same place for long gives us a whole host of other teams and leagues to play in. There really isn't a downside to this.
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The one hour thing came about from some players thinking 'realistically, who would uproot their family, leave their job for a part time contract of x per week', so in terms of expanding scouting range I have an informal rule of only doing that when the club is full time, not when it necessarily gets promoted.
In terms of scouting nearby clubs and their youth teams I would say that is pretty accurate to how things work in real life anyway - scouting your neighbours and tapping up the nearby league club for some of their kids. I suppose my only pointer would be on 'realistic loans'. I don't have a hard and fast guideline but as an example a Premier League club with elite facilities isn't letting their teenage wonderkid out on loan to get hacked to pieces in non-league these days. Of course non-league is full of ex-professionals on their way down and kids who never quite made it in better teams youth teams so I think the approach is a good one
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On 26/03/2021 at 08:54, sthptngomad76 said:
Is it too much to ask for a game that doesn't require human players to avoid particular tactics not to dominate?
Could we not have a system that is a little more sophisticated?
I can remember playing CM 93-94, waltzing the league with QPR with my odd formation that I learnt from a gamers mag. Sure, they were simpler times.
But its been nearly 30 years from that. Programming and AI has come leaps and bounds since then. I don't care even if SI resorted to sliders, or overpowered AI to defeat super human tactics. Anything to keep my attention in an era where I can go off and find another game that I feel frustrates me a little, but keeps me playing. Without the whole charade being broken by easily replicating a series of tactical inputs I can find on Steam, and then dominating the football leagues with Bradford PA without signing a player.
I just want that feeling of enticing frustration again, without it knowing that I can simply download a tactic and dominate. I want results to rely on things other than just a tactical input- the chase of better players, morale management, coaching. It's 2021, we don't need to be doing this "let's pretend not to break the game to have fun" stuff.
It's an interesting post this and I definitely get the point of view. 'If only SI made the game harder' is a valid suggestion and I get the perspective that 'there is 30 years of AI and programming' advances to exploit. I have mentioned it before but there is a counterbalance to this...
30 years of fan development of tactics and how to play the game. There are over 100,000 posts in the tactics forums, for nigh on 30 years there have been hundreds, maybe thousands of players building on the knowledge of how 'best' to play the game. The 'knowledge' of how to 'beat' FM has grown exponentially at a far faster rate than SI's developers. Player advice on how to set up tactics, how to maintain morale, how to hire, train is ingrained in the community. The only way perhaps to make it 'hard' again would be a completely new game and engine from scratch. The fanbase's desire to share and help has created the position some players are in now.
Playing 'realistically' won't solve all those problems of course and every player has to make that choice about what is right (not aimed at you, but 'but I like a tactic where I put a GK in AML on all out attack swapping with the DR' sometimes feels a little unconvincing).
It's a shame of course but unless they start from scratch I don't see how it will change - for instance if there was a super hard AI in the next version two days after release someone would have looked under the hood at the hidden attributes, there would be a list of who they were in the game and a matrix of ten tactics to switch between depending on the behaviour of the AI. Of course not every player would use these but indirectly, unless the player actively avoided all discussion of the game they still would indirectly benefit from the increased knowledge the community has about 'how to play'.
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I don't think anyone should be seriously commenting on a game being 'too easy' when they have downloaded tactics that are specifically tested and designed to beat the match engine. What did you expect to happen?
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Judging by this forum sometimes it's raining absolute tears when, 'I am managing the best team in the world, we have won 9 CL and leagues on the trot and I have just drawn 1-1 after having 50 clear cut chances' happens!
Football is both predictable (the best teams usually win the trophies most often) and unpredictable in that anything can happen on a given day because ultimately you are dealing with 22 individuals with a whole load of complexity thrown in (how they all feel and interact with each other).
Personally I love those FM moments where you batter a side and they win 1-0, or where you get a 93rd minute penalty to get promoted.
I don't know if FM replicates it to the extent real life does (the game can never really replicate that complexity) but I would always cheer for moments where the players don't seem to be data units or OP tactics / players don't behave as expected.
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@Domoboy23 I am running FM vanilla at the moment so I cannot comment on the particular mods Dave has created
What I feel more comfortable saying is that in terms of whether I would choose his mod or not he is definitely the type of creator I would support.
This is based on;
a) openly strives for realism
b) puts a lot of effort into documenting what he has changed, the rationale for it and the impact of the changes
c) is open to feedback
d) has made revisions to his original work to improve.
There is ALWAYS a risk with any editor that they introduce unforseen (and unrealistic) consequences into the game, no matter how well intentioned, which is why many people who try to play as realistically as possible stick with the base game.
My advice would be to read his megapack thread and first question, 'do I agree that the things he thinks are problems are the same problems I see'. If you answer that 'yes', then have a look at his output videos and images and see if that meets your expectations before downloading.
I would say that in terms of being realistic he is clearly very open about what he sets out to do which is a massive plus in my eyes to aid your decision making
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1 hour ago, n1mez said:
Guys!
I am one who loves realism like you, and unrealistic things in a save can throw me off the save. So which things do you recommend 2 do 2 get the realism up? Things 2 download, databases.
I have only had 1 long save in this FM, and it was with Paris FC.
You can have a decent realistic experience with the vanilla game of course. Most unrealistic things in the game come from what the manager does rather than editors.
I saw a thread on here the other day where someone was going to ditch their save because the team they had taken from tier 11 in the UK to tier 2 and their players wanted tier 4 salaries. Incidentally they had never paid a transfer fee, only signed 18 year olds and yet it was a 'disaster'.
An extreme example but managing in ways no club would ever do is the most unrealistic thing out there.
Same goes for other peoples tactics, but especially 'i have designed and tested this OP tactic that never loses'. I am of the view that the decades of well intentioned tactical evolution has 'broke' FM, but especially tactics which don't even try to have a real world tactical aesthetic and instead are optimised to beat the engine.
In a more specific response though I think there are three key editor areas where people try to address realism. Some or all may be what you are looking for.
1) Mechanics / data - especially finances, transfer activity, youth intake and quality. These mods seek to balance the financial / player base to more realistically play. I know some people put a LOT into this and test thoroughly. If you are going down this route I recommend using mods where it is evident the creator has really thought it through, explained their rationale, has good reviews and has a track record for amends. I have seen well intentioned mods in this area which if added would imbalance a game further rather than improve.
2) the data set - cosmetic changes to images, names, adding additional data sources like media. Other forums are good for graphics but additional data creators are in the editors forum here too. These generally won't break your game but will make things more immersive.
3) additional leagues - a lot of realistic players (including myself to a large extent) are attracted to these because they offer an opportunity for someone to take over a club at a 'realistic' level and work their way up. There is a word of caution here though - FM isn't really designed for 'tier 20' so there is a chance that there is little difference in players at lower levels which unbalance your game. You can combat this with some rigour to your recruitment and self imposed realism rules. Depth (additional divisions) and breadth (additional nations) create a bigger FM world but that doesn't always mean realistic. Some creators put in a phenomenal amount of work into their databases but can't replicate league rules or geographical rules. If realism is more important than depth or breadth then go for creators who have a track record of striving for realism, who are responsive to corrections and are open about what they have not got right or can't fix.
A good rule of thumb is the speed of release (fast isn't a good sign) and frequency of revisions / updates (a passion for further refinement and improvement) but really what matters to you will influence what you're looking for.
(None of the above is intended to be a slight on people who strive to make the game better for themselves and others - it's just my observation).
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12 minutes ago, Junkhead said:
I have been known to ask my partner where she would rather live and show her pictures of cities when deciding between two job offers when starting unemployed
I thought every llama did that? I have worried about uprooting the kids too often when they are in primary school before ha ha.
(Actually I think searching for house prices / good schools in whatever backwater you may end up in may be peak LLM lol)
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It seems evident to me, the game is actually being quite kind to you in terms of modelling Championship wages.
The cash the players have asked for are exceptionally low for both Championship and League One - they are not asking for too much.
You're problem is that you have massively overachieved, possibly at a ridiculous rate and your club is simply not big enough to support a Championship side.
You're also being either exceptionally harsh on yourself to an almost delusional level if you think taking a club from tier 11 to the championship using youth recruiting / cast offs is not achieving anything and you may as well ditch your save.
In real life there are few cases of a club going from that level to the league and those that have either threw lots of money at it when they were relatively rich to the division or had a phoenix level support.
Even former non League clubs with 20 years of league history find life in the championship hard due to a lack of a generations long support and income stream.
Your choices are quite simple, if you still have a league two or conference budget you have to pay that level of wages until your reputation improves to build your fanbase or hope that the chairman puts in the cash. Alternatively you can go for broke and ignore that and hope reaching the pl happens before bankrupting the club.
Looking at it though and what the players are asking, if they are of a certain level they can earn that elsewhere.
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I seem to remember King's Lynn getting lumped in the North one year, that's a bit of a trek for some!
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On 04/02/2021 at 10:59, Brother Ben said:
Glossop North End?
Have a great history and the location looks cool on the map on the edge of the Peak district.
it's the smallest town in England to have ever had a top flight team. They are at level 8
A great idea! It's also bloody freezing there too in winter winter!
A club I have a soft spot for!
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I have a real life soft spot for Corinthian Casuals - this is fun to see!
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Glad to see someone else thinking of some West Lancs league action @batch. My closest club is Bamber Bridge (about ten min walk away) but they are far to high to take me on so I have had a hankering for a Lostock St. Gerrard's save for some time
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I would remind myself that LLM does not equate to 'hard' or a 'challenge'. The nature of LLM means that it just happens to be often hard and a challenge!
I assume because you are using the picker that the side is in this position out of the box so you haven't 'gamed' anything.
For immersion / fun purposes I think giving yourself a Portuguese nationality could be a fun way to go.
The other thing to consider is the picker is just a way to suggest a team. If it really niggles you for any reason then select another because the most important thing is you liking your save. I think I would either stay with the club or pick another team rather than edit - that seems to be a variation of 'making the game harder than it needs to be' which isn't in the llama spirit either in my opinion.
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How we're introducing women's football into Football Manager
in Football Manager General Discussion
Posted
I'd suggest that would be one of the last things they do because it's essentially the application of some data to the game and by it's nature is dynamic and I am sure it would be on the list but perhaps the priority is making the whole game hang together.
I'm mindful also that this perhaps isn't that important right now, although I shudder to think of the future 'concerns' when the winner of the women's Champion's League has a higher reputation than an amateur side on a Pacific island.
I think one should also consider that 99% of players have 'no chance' of getting a job at any club but it doesn't stop us playing and that for any new league to be added it will be researched with appropriate data / staff / salary etc.
What I would expect is managers in game moving between the men's and women's teams so some of the high rep successful female managers would get good jobs in the men's game and the high rep women's teams would attract male managers in the game (right now a female manager in game has none of those concerns).
There is clearly a level of dynamism and improving profile of women in football. I'd be mindful of saying 'no way would this happen' - the football world could look quite different in a year or two.
Also want to address the 'what would Klopp do' comments. There are probably about 20 clubs in the world the very highest profile managers would consider working at. That doesn't stop us managing and enjoying FM at the 1000+ of other playable clubs in the game. Combined with the 'standard of football' comments I swear some would like FM to be a 'big club' game only