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sqirg

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Posts posted by sqirg

    Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)

    in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion

    Posted

    Hi ö-zil, thanks a lot for this post. I can tell from your OP that you must have had so much fun when this finally came together! Every new version of FM I try to create a diamond 3-4-3 that works as it should (with Ajax) sometimes based on Cruijff's principles and his famous Barcelona side, sometimes a more rigid and disciplined version that would be more akin to van Gaal's Ajax '95 side, which was the football I grew up with. Now, I am not too sure about Cruijff's version, but in van Gaal's 3-4-3, the DM (or DLP in this tactic) would pick up the opposing striker when playing against a front 3 (or 1). Obviously, you're not in the business of recreating van Gaal's side, but it seems to make sense to me to have it like that. For, having played your tactic and very much enjoyed doing so, I did notice when up against a 'smart' opponent playing 3/1 forwards, having the centre back pick up the centre striker is risky. If it is a targetman-like striker, not so much. Then it becomes a bit of a battle of strength between the centre back (i am talking about the 'real' centre back, on cover duty) and the striker. With a player like Ajer, you'll be fine most of the time. But a 'smart' striker would drop deep, drag the CB up the pitch, leaving a gap where that CB used to be, and inside forwards or attacking midfielders overlapping the opponents' deep-dropping striker will have a blast. This is the main weakness I found in this tactic, such that, if I would be up against this one, I would definitely try to exploit this and play with a false nine coupled with an AM... I am not sure if you have encountered such movements, but wonder if you have suggestions to protect oneself from such kinds of attacks. Personally, that's why I referenced it, I think the DM/DLP picking up the striker and the CB playing even more as a cover would resolve the issue. Ideally, without possession, when up against 3/1 forwards, the DLP would play more as a CB on stopper duty, coupled with a sweeper on defend, who, well, actually covers instead of closing down the striker. Setting it up like that in FM, however, has as its downside that the CB on stopper duty doesn't venture up the pitch far enough to act as the DLP one would want him to be in possession. I tinkered around a bit with playing with a CB(stopper) coupled with a Libero (attack), such that, they kind of reverse roles when transitioning from without/with possession, and interestingly, the match engine this time around does not quite stop the Libero from pushing up beyond the CB in front of him. I found the Libero would more or less step into midfield, as one would want him to, in order to play a DLP-ish role - yet he also, does not venture into midfield quite far enough to my taste.

    I digressed a bit... To summerize: it seems to me the problem when facing 3/1 forwards is to find a way to have a DLP/CB hybrid. Man marking the striker when playing a proper DLP does not quite seem to do the trick for me... I wonder if you have any ideas on this? I Always find it difficult to 'concede' and play a 4-3-3 versus 3/1 strikers. For, yes, that diamond sure looks nice doesn't it? :)))

    This is genius!

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    Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)

    in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion

    Posted

    You can safely say that mental & technical > physical for this type of football. You'll find lots of players who are great playmakers but don't have the workrate / stamina. Sadly it's very difficult to develop work rate, so that is generally part of my attribute search when considering new players.

    When scouting young players (16/17 year-olds), what would you look for in terms of stamina and workrate? A minimum of 13 for stamina and 13 for workrate?

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    Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)

    in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion

    Posted

    Wonderful, wonderful post.

    I have been trying to recreate this tactic for the past few years on FM.

    I have copied your tactic and it works great. However, I have made a tweak to mine which I think works really well. I dropped the DLP(D) back to the DM strata. I think dropped the AM(A) back to the CM strata (making him an AP(A) (between the two CM(S) players) and finally, I moved the CF(S) back to the AM strata and also made him an AP(A).

    I found that playing strikerless results in some great 'false nine-ish' attacking play. I also found that I was being exposed in the defensive midfield zone a lot, so moving a player back here helps protect the defence a lot more.

    EDIT:

    I wanted to add: What you wrote about Roaming (and not telling any of your midfielders to roam) is so spot-on and is something often not understood in most tactics. The midfield diamond is strength and unity. Why would I want my players to roam out of position and break this diamond?

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    The Art of Possession Football

    in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion

    Posted

    It looks more like you need an Anchorman not a DM. And Busquets is neither of those, btw.

    Anchorman is a good shout. I believe I tried it in the past and there didn't seem a whole lot of difference between Anchorman and Defensive Midfielder. I decided upon Defensive Midfielder because I thought he would have a slightly less restricted passing range than an Anchorman (whether this is true or not I'm not sure).

    When I mentioned Busquets, I meant a player who keeps it simple and plays the ball forward, as opposed to a Gerrard-esque regista spraying the ball all over the place.

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    The Art of Possession Football

    in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion

    Posted

    Yeah pretty much, what are your 3 cm's set as. thanks

    I have my DM (in the DM strata) set as DM(D). I don't want this guy to move too far out of position (in attack or defence) because in such an attacking system I need someone shielding the defence. I also want him to keep it simple (hence why i've gone for 'Defensive Midfielder' instead of DLP or other roles) as if he loses the ball we're gonna be in big trouble. Think Busquets.

    For the 2 CMs ahead of him I am using 2x 'Box to Box' midfielders, and I have set them both to 'Roam from position', so that they make themselves available and show for the ball as often as possible. I used B2B midfielders because I want them to break into the box and exploit the space between the opposition's FB and CB (which is created by my WFs staying wide). That being said, because I'm playing on 'Counter' mentality, they aren't TOO adventurous, and it's nice to see that they tend to take turns making attacking runs. If I'm playing a difficult team away from home and they're pressing me and we're having trouble playing into midfield I normally change one of these to DLP(S) so that they drop a bit deeper and provide more passing options for the CBs.

    At the tip of the diamond (in the AMC strata) I use an AP(A). I want this guy to sit in the hole, play killer passes, link up with the striker and get on the end of moves and crosses into the box. I've been using Olivier from Atletico in this position and he's an absolute dream.

    Hope that helps!

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    The Art of Possession Football

    in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion

    Posted

    In majority of league games I was managing 68-74% using the flat 343 I posted about last year, on this years version using Ajax. The thing is, the league is relatively poor and bar two teams are all ranked lower than you drastically in FM terms. So majority of sides allow you to dominate and sit back.

    I bet you that in Europe though you don't average anywhere near 65% for the entire competition.

    It sounds very similar to mine but I play defensive. It sounds like our ideas are more or less mirrored though :)

    That’s true that the Dutch league isn’t a top European league and I do have a top class team. However, in my experience a fair few of the teams in the league try to press you and stop you from playing out from the back (when they're playing at home, at least).

    I couldn't tell you of my possession stats in the Champions League off the top of my head, but I have put in several dominating performances against some of the big boys (Pep's Bayern being one of them).

    One of the major attractions to the 3-4-3 diamond for me is that it provides a consistent, clear route of getting the ball from my GK to my CF (without hoofing it) and provides the kind of football I love to watch. I’m a sucker for a Laudrup-esque slipped through ball to break the defensive line, which is why I love playing with an AMC.

    I have tried to model it on Guardiola's 3-4-3 that he played against Villareal in the 5-0 (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/08/29/barcelona-5-0-villarreal-tactics/). I have told my wide CBs to push up further so that at times they act almost like midfielders (what I'd love in FM is a 'wide libero' CB role, similar to how Emre Can played as part of a back 3 for Liverpool under Rodgers).

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    The Art of Possession Football

    in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion

    Posted

    How effectively do you defend the flanks? You have a narrow midfield that offers little width and no conventional wide players anywhere. It must be a little problematic?

    It's actually not as big of a problem as I thought it would be, for a few reasons:

    - I stop teams playing from the back and I have tall CBs who win any long balls so it's hard for them to get the ball in advanced areas in the first place.

    - I tell my wingers to man-mark their fullbacks, effectively neutralising them (I make sure my wingers have decent workrate/teamwork so they don't neglect this duty).

    - I tell my wide CBs to close down more. When the ball is on the flank the closest CB goes to close down the ball and the other 2 shift over. This does leave us significantly weak on the opposite flank, so if the opposition switches the play quickly across to the other side we can be caught out, but this is a difficult ball to execute so it happens rarely.

    - Because I 'Play Wider' the CMs can actually play quite wide at times. They also close down opposition wingers when the ball is on their side of the pitch.

    - If I'm playing against a 4-2-2-2 (with 2 CMs and 2 WFs, like how Simeone's Atletico play), or if a team are particularly strong on the flanks, I tell my CM's to man-mark their WFs, meaning the play as wingbacks in defence and CM's in attack.

    - As I mentioned earlier, I play with 3 CBs who are strong in the air, so even if the opposition does get crosses in, we have 3 players capable of clearing the ball.

    Of course, we do get caught out at times (I suppose every tactic has it's weaknesses), but it seems to be more from my defenders making an individual error or a lapse in concentration.

    I believe it to be a highly effective formation (and one that produces attractive football), but one where the margin for error becomes really small. if you don’t get things right, you run the risk of being exposed. If one player isn't closing down from goal kicks or isn't pressing properly the whole thing can fall apart, hence why I make sure all of my players have at least reasonable workrate/teamwork (I look for 13+).

    The 3-4-3 enables us to build up from the back slowly (normally through the wide CB's (who I play as Ball Playing CBs and I tell to 'Get Further Forward') who play the ball into midfield or to the WFs) or counterattack (as the WFs remain high up the pitch, ready to exploit the space), hence why I play the 'Counter' strategy.

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    The Art of Possession Football

    in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion

    Posted

    In line with JimmyGuitarist's recent post, I play with maximum width, width a wide player on each flank and try to open up the centre of the pitch for my players to exploit. I tell my team to Play Wider (TI) and Exploit the Middle (TI).

    I am setup in a 3-4-3 diamond (3 CB, DM, 2 CM, AM, 2 WF, CF). I believe this is the best formation for possession football as it creates the most triangles on the pitch and I am able to press the opposition's back 4 intensely and stop them playing out from the back.

    I have been averaging 65% possession with my Ajax side and create tons of chances due to dominance in key areas of the pitch.

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