SenhorChristo
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Posts posted by SenhorChristo
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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
Focus through the middle to encourage more passing combinations in central areas, which I guess should be suitable to what you described as your intended style of play.
Be more expressive to encourage the sudden quick passes forward you said you want to see after a patient build-up in your own half. Especially when viewed in combination with lower tempo and play out of defence.
P.S: When you test the tactic, watch carefully what happens and make small gradual tweaks based on what you observe (but only if really necessary).
to be fair i don't really know if play though the middle is the intention in this formation.
i will attach a video of a play which shows nicely what i mean:
if you check well, usually the defenders are back opening wide options to gk, they also pass the ball back to gk many times and the midfielders doesn't come too deep to collect the ball. "the defenders and gk has to deal with their troubles and somehow pass the ball forward", we kindly can say like that.
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3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
Really not sure if that would work as you imagined, but maybe you can try something like this:
TMat AF
WMsu WPsu
DLPsu VOLsu
WBsu CDde BPDde WBsu
SKde
Mentality - Balanced
In possession - play out of defence, lower tempo, be more expressive and focus through the middle
In transition - slow pace down
Out of possession - no TIs (for a start)
i will try it as soon as i arrive home.
why you recommended to use focus though the middle and be more expressive in this particular case? i struggle understanding some tweaks
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i have an attacking idea in my mind and that’s what i want to emulate in my team.
personally (imho) i have a decent squad for the way i want to play.
what i want to do is to recycle the ball back as much as possible to attract opponents, passing many times from defenders to gk and etc and then attack fast with a quick transition.
in my imagination it could work in two ways:
first one
cautious + (slight) higher tempo + short passes + play out of defense
second one
attacking + (slight) lower tempo + short passes + play out of defense
i honestly don’t have any conclusive idea of formation and roles/duties for it and i have a squad decent enough to have players in any role that may be offered here as ideas.
any idea about formation or ways to make it work out would be great.
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1 hour ago, Gbrexiton said:
The highest settings on both
I want to press so that I can win the ball back when the opposition is in a vulnerable position, and then counter.
I’m not really sure; I’ve been experimenting with both. I don’t know if I should sit back so that the opposition come onto me, or if I should push up so that I could win the ball back more often and in a better position.
that are two different ways of playing. i, as you, am learning how to build tactic and struggling with counter attacking tactic.
post a screenshot from your tactic and let we check how it’s going.
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13 hours ago, zyfon5 said:
For a counter tactic I will avoid using run at defence since you will want the players to release the ball as soon as possible and from your tactic you already have passing options up front. Some occasions you will want to use dribble less especially against teams that are much better than you to avoid losing possession easily. I will also drop whipped crosses so that wide players have a little bit more freedom in what crosses they are putting in unless there is very specific reason to do it. For a counter tactic you want to give your attacking players more freedom to choose what is the best option to attack because you never know what situation they will end up in. I will also adjust the tempo and passing directness if teams are playing more cautiously.
well, yesterday i ended winning 4 out of the last 6 games of the season with this last tactic i showed and finished at 7th in the league. pretty proud of it, tbh.
after the end of the season many of my players were wanted by europe's giants but i managed to only sell two of them. the board wanted me to buy players to make profit and i had the idea to build a strong team with some young talents on loan with option to buy in the end of loan with a fixed price.
the reason for whipped crosses were (and maybe still are) that my attackers are fast, quick but not tall. also, they're not too short. anyway, just changed it to variety in the new season's tactic
with the acquisitions i made by loan with fixed price, except for kagawa who came for free contract (and i think i needed some experience in this pretty young squad) i managed to build this tactic with the same counter attacking mentality but this time with some minor changes.
if the team is too stronger i put DL to lower. my new defenders are just awesome dealing with crosses so i kept the mentality to interrupt the play in the middle and make the opponent cross it.
DM, BWM and AP all tackling harder
with this tactic i managed to draw Lyon 0-0 (A) with them creating close to zero chances and we losing 2 good ones. after that, we won Monaco (H) 2-1 with a defenders mistake making us concede. our set pieces are also really goods and one of our goals vs monaco came from it.
does "play for set pieces" negatively affects the counter attacking mentality i'm trying to input in the team? like, would a player prefer a foul instead the try of keeping the play if it's marked?
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10 hours ago, GianniM said:
Read the descriptions in game, I think they speak for themselves. Enganche is more of a playmaker type, while the AM is also more involved in the box.
I haven't used it, but I figure it's when you have good dribblers who can run past the opposition defenders. Or when you're hoping to get free kicks.
Mind you that both your flanks are really attacking now. Attacking full backs plus the wingers on attack duty. With positive mentality and focus play over the flanks it's giving your wide players a very attacking mentality.
I think you'd be better off if you'd just make small tweaks in the very first tactic you've posted and see what differences that'd make.
so after all the reading here and some testing during the day i managed to achieve the following formation...
player's instructions are
get further forward for RDW
mark tighter for both defenders, DM and BWM (forcing opponents to play by the flanks and cross, which is our defense strenght)
don't know if it was simply after changing from the original post's tactic but our performance went down a bit. okay, we were expected to be at 20th and are sitting at 6~10 but we are losing games which i consider were winnable before.
i'm going to play some more matches with this tactic to see how it works. in paper, does it seems like something that may work?
i also have in mind changing maric's role from CF to F9 in matches which the opponent doesn't use defensive midfielders since it's his natural position and we haven't any CAM in the formation
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alright. have changed some roles and based on what was said previously and my players i decided to keep the DLP since he has the best passing around my 6 players at back.
after changes, i achieved to this tactic which the idea is to keep the team compact and marking harder in the middle to force opposite team to cross it and my good heading defenders deal with it.
i want guerin as WBs because he's so agile and good recovering the ball because of his mental attributes and puigmal as FBa because hes good doing one twos and this may help in triangles with my DLP and my winger when we are creating offensive chances.
in CAM is AM the best choice in my case for counter attacking? i was thinking about an enganche but not sure if it would work well. also, i can move him to CM and use as BBM or any other more counter attacking sided role.
also, run at defense is good to be used in my case where i want the counter attack to be passing based?
this is also one that, in my mind, could potentially work.
overlap left used because Cohen (RW) is 1,92m tall and really good at headers. also LWB has PI to cross to far post
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i admit my team is doing well but i don't play for less than the maximum so i want to at least get UEL this season, which i will personally still feel incomplete if not reach UCL.
in DM's description it says the player retains the possession after the team got some tough time defending. wouldn't it stop even more counter attacks than a DLPs which in description says "tries to connect defense and attack quickly"?
also, i've seen over here in the forum that BWM is more for attacking based tatics because he's more aggressive marking and keeps running behind the ball. why would he be better than a static or structured defensive midfielder role? how does he act in game in comparison with the HB and anchor?
btw, i play in portuguese so any description translation might be wrong.
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21 minutes ago, GianniM said:
Wait a minute, I didn't say change half your team into attacking
One or two max, to have some people running forward. You're still the underdog and you're on positive mentality already. Moreover you I don't think you should change too much about your first tactic given your results vs expectations.
And I said to have less playmakers, not more (if you want counter-attacking football)
alright but which roles in midfield are considered counter attack based?
in my thoughts a HB and a DLP would work well defending and connecting counter attacks. any role would fits better than DLP in this situation?
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10 minutes ago, GianniM said:
First tactic in terms of TIs seems like a good counter-tactic. Despite your formation you'll be compact due to the lower LOE and defend narrow. And you'll get the ball forward quickly through the positive mentality, pass into space and counter TI. Although I'd change some forwards to attack duty, and perhaps change the DLP into another role to speed up play.
The second tactic seems like a complete mess to me. You say it is a counter tactic for when you are complete underdogs. I'd think you want to get the ball forward quickly then, but your tactic tells the opposite:
- You have two BPD plus two DLP who will all be expecting to get the ball played into their feet in your half. Your counter momentum will be gone by the time they have fought that battle.
- Play out of defense makes this even worse (implicates slow build-up)
- Focus play down left/right makes no sense with all those central playmakers. You confuse your players already by telling them they need to play the ball to four playmakers at once, then on top of that you tell them to play the ball in the opposite direction as well. Keep it simple for your players and reduce their options (thus reduce their decision-making time)
- Lower tempo - Have you ever seen slow counter-attacks?
- Waste time - I'd not use this as a standard from the start of a game, only towards the end. Definitely not when you want quick counter attacks. Again you're taking away your own momentum.
- Distribute to CB only would make sense if you have a CB with a very good long-range passing ability. For counter attacks I'd opt for a wide or forward option. Again, to get the ball forward quickly.
- All of the above in combination with counter TI will see your defenders and DMs having the ball in the back, while your forwards are out of reach high up the field because they ran forward as soon as the ball was recovered.
- A lower Dline will draw the opposition very close to your goal. That sounds dangerous to me, actually I'm not sure in which case you'd use that but I certainly wouldn't.
alright... most of your points are results of my miss of knowledge in terms of how the roles works in certain way. i didn't know that 2 BPD + 2 DLP would be bad since in my thoughts they would cycle the ball fast between then and get forward fast.
I slowed the tempo because it's in Attack mentality and as i mentioned my main idea was to pass the ball back to opponents push forward. thinking in the other points you made this idea i had wasn't really good.
in distribution i have in distribute short/to cb which one is in goal kick and which one is when he catches the ball in game. also, the waste time was added again trying to waste time in defense to attract the opponents marking.
after reading your appointments i made some changes in both tactics.
the first one became like this
added get futher forward for RW and some other marking PI's since my defense is good at heading i want my mid-men marking tighter and toughter
the second one became like this
again get further forward in LW
i pulled the defense a bit more because i want to attrack their wingers even further and because my team is good at defending crosses.
what are your thoughts about there two variations?
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so i'm managing sochaux-montbéliard which just managed to get ligue 1 last season and after some loses in a row they sacked their manager and signed me in my journeyman save.
as a complete underdog (20th expected position) and a young squad (many younger than 24 and some really good gems with 15/16yo i knew it was a good place to be.
the team is young, fast, agile and skilling on the sides, with a fast regen (17yo) in striker position. defensively, the team is kinda fast but in comparison with the other teams my defensive side is one of the slowest but tallers and good heading ones.
with all that in mind i thought why not try for the first time a counter attacking style team, since i'm very aggressive coaching and always want to have possession to have some direct attack. just like klopp, bielsa, jardim and jesus do.
i'm having really good results with these tactics managing to have played 12 matches with 8w 3d (lyon, monaco and stade brestois 29) and only 1L (PSG which we were drawing until min. 88 but my goals aren't coming mostly from counter attacks but from attacks itself. we are building more attacks than counter attacking it.
since we are now sitting at 7th position with 2 games less than opponents above us and in round 17 i think we can fight for UEL (or even UCL with luck) and with that we are going to suffer from more attacking teams that the ones we are facing in ligue 1
i have build two tactics based on two lines of thinking:
the first one is for when i'm not so underdog and feel i still can compete with my opponent or when my opponents don't press so higher up the pitch (which actually is happening and a lot since we are winning many games in a row with this tactic)
i want this counter attacks to be fluid with quick passes like real madrid has done last years in big games, since all our games probably gonna be big
i was using my AM as AP but him and my DLP were crashing their heads with each other almost sharing the same positions in field when we were build attacks so with AM he's playing a bit more forward
the second one is for when we are more underdogs which probably also combines with opponent marking us higher and tighter
the idea is to play the ball back the most of time possible to attract opposition marking and pass the ball forward with medium/long or quick short passes. i'm struggling to make this one to work and can't know why.
(michaud is changed for puigmal which plays really good as DLP and another RWB is selected)
since i'm not so experienced playing counter attacks, every advice is notable!
i already have read many tutorials and threads on this forum that's why i thought here was the best place to come with a thread like this.
*edit*
wrong photos were posted + my first thread here i messed with formatting stuff. sorry
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how is attraction do-able?
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
so i could achieve some improvements with some tweaks
CFa F9
raundeuter
WMs DLPd CARs
IWBs CWBs
CDd BPDd
SKd
positive
slight lower tempo, lower passes, pass into space
if i’m winning the match i add counter and fast pace down, also if i’m winning it being an underdog i also add regroup
many of my players have the trait to make one-twos (idk it in english) which may make my transitions fast
one doubt i’ve created while i’m building this tactic is: does the mentality increase the tendency to pass back/forward, increase the confidence the player has to do a play focusing forward, literally means mentality and kinda changes the player mentality to take or not risks or does it affects all of my appointments?
using balanced with lower tempo as you said but adding also lower passes and pass into space would make theorically sense in the play style i’m trying to achieve? in my mind adding shorter passing could work making the team keep a bit more the possession than it’s already doing, attracting the opponent even a bit more (maybe playing with cautious mentality and shorter passes could work better without messing with tempo?)
sorry for too many questions i’m just trying to learn as much as possible to master this game.