Yellowbucket58
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Posts posted by Yellowbucket58
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Sounds great! Wonder if the “extra motivation” to meet goals is tied to the player morale or something else under the hood that accounts for said motivation during a match.
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I do think the ME is good but boy does it produce a lot of the same goals. The most common goal scored I’ve seen is a midfielder simply hoofing it over the top of the defense, where the forward then runs into space and scores. Kinda frustrating and boring.
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It’s nice to know they fixed or at least tweaked newgen generation. Some of the regens, if not most of them had really strange attribute spread. Attributes such as crossing, dribbling, heading, finishing were at a premium as soon a save progressed 15+ years and the database was mostly all regens. It doesn’t really affect the user as they are able to retrain and focus on certain attributes to improve, but the AI doesn’t really do that, so it lead to AI teams using players in positions and roles they didn’t have proper attributes for. For example, as a save progresses there’s always a dearth of wingbacks/fullbacks with proper crossing/dribbling, and because the AI isn’t really developing these attributes they’ll play players with abysmal ratings in said attributes, which probably isn’t great for the AI team’s performance across seasons.
I’ve been able to manually fix this with a mass editor that allows me to tweak the ratings of regens, and it overall does a good in balancing regen attributes. Here’s a report I did on regen attribute spread, which should come in handy when testing for this years changes. Will report what I find.
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2 hours ago, 2feet said:
More info here on the match engine changes (plus other things like changes to Team Instructions to help improve defensive tactics): https://www.footballmanager.com/features/match-ai-and-animation
Goalkeepers now have the ability to make K-Block saves – when the ‘keeper drops one knee to the ground to prevent a shot from going through their legs – and spread saves. Now, in one-on-one situations, the goalkeepers can use their frames more effectively.
Defensively, we have improved the ability to win tackles, read interceptions, apply back/side pressure on opponents and read aerial interceptions. Alongside the general team-shape tweaks, defensive shapes have improved as well – for example, wingbacks in a back five will look to press/engage more aggressively, while there also improvements to back-four shapes positionally, too.
Going forward, players in FM23 can have more realistic first touches in their attempts to get the ball perfectly under control – for example, the ball may bounce or bobble up in the air on a player’s touch. First touches, in general, will carry on the momentum of the ball more from the pass - making the match itself look and feel more realistic.
It also adds different decisions that players will make based on these first touches, including more opportunities to control the ball In mid-air and bring It down better, or carry on with the ball, or even chest it straight Into a volley.
Elsewhere in the final third, there are improvements to finishing. Players are now more likely to shoot across goal, find corners, open up their bodies and take a composed touch before scoring. When they get into attacking positions, they are more likely to cut onto their stronger foot.
We have also made improvements to a few player roles and how they position on the pitch - for example, the Winger role is now better at consistently offering width in attack. In midfield, tweaks for advanced roles, namely Mezzala, Advanced Playmaker and Central Midfielders on Attack duty, will position them higher in the half-spaces during build-up play in certain formations, such as 4-3-3.
There are also changes to address the balance between Defensive and Attacking mentalities. For instance, players may be less consistent at tracking back defensively after they have exerted themselves in the attacking third, depending on their Attributes. This, combined with the defensive improvements, should lead to counter-attacking and defensive football being more viable than ever.
If implemented well these are some great additions to the games match AI but wouldn’t go as far as to call them headline features. These are improvements that should be expected, not advertised as major selling points.
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2 hours ago, kentonizking said:
I would like to see some examples of weird regens
Here's the report I did on regen attributes, which showcases the problem with regen attributes.
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It's an issue that has been acknowledged by the developers but it apparently is a problem that's difficult to fix. I've done some lengthy research on regen attribute spread and I found the game produces some really weird regens when compared to the real players at the start of the game.
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I also ran some tests a while ago, all in full detail, because like you I was surprised by the somewhat lackluster performance of Tottenham and especially Kane in the game. Boosted Morale, Conte's attributes, player ratings but they still underperformed. Ran countless test and from what I gathered the AI played Kane as a Deep-Lying forward every game as that was his preferred role, which makes sense as his attributes are perfect for that role but he severely underperformed every save. So I went into the pregame editor and changed Conte's preferred forward position to be an advanced forward, which resulted in Kane immediately banging in goals and Tottenham's form immediately improved. Did other tinkering with the team but can't remember as I conducted the tests a couple of months ago. Also gathered that for whatever reason if an AI coach plays a formation that has a lone striker, said striker will usually struggle unless he's being played as an advanced forward.
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1 minute ago, marionk said:
So fbs regen with no crossing still there ?
I'm doing another in depth analysis on the attribute spread now that the update released. Will post later. Hope it's fixed as it really makes long term saves annoying.
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They are pretty much the same. I did an in depth analysis a while ago and reported it in the bug forum. It was acknowledged so I'm hoping it's fixed in the next update. It's also been a problem in the past several versions of the game so I'm leaning that it won't be fixed but hopefully not.
Here's the report if you wanted to take a look. It's not a problem with only wingback crossing and dribbling but multiple attributes have strange distributions on Regens regardless of position.
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A while ago I did a report on the poor crossing/dribbling ability on fullbacks/wingbacks. However, after further analysis it has come to my attention that there are certain attributes that remain low on regens when they are generated regardless of position. Below is a report on my findings. Its rather lengthy but I hope it proves useful.
Note: All saves contain 70000+ players (number of players in database in parentheses) with all major European, North America, and South American leagues loaded. All leagues are loaded as playable. Orange table is data from the start of the save while blue table contains data for 3 different test saves advanced 20 years, when virtually all players are regens. Numbers with a + next to them indicate players with an attribute equal to or greater than said number.
Crossing-- As the save progresses there is a sharp decline in crossing ability across the entire database. At the start of a save there are 371 players with a crossing ability 15 or more, 1286 with a crossing ability of 14 or more and so on. 20 years later there are only 42, 43, and 35 players with a crossing ability of 15 or more across the three different saves. Also of note, there are only 1891, 1779, and 2048 players with a crossing ability of 11 or more while at the start of the save there are 14172. A simply massive reduction in crossing ability as a save progresses and more and more regens populate the game and real players retire.
Dribbling/Finishing-Similar to the Crossing attribute. While the number of players with a Dribbling/Finishing attribute of 15+ remains nearly identical regardless if it’s at the start of the save or 20 years later, there is still a massive reduction in said attributes across the database when a larger range is taken into account. For example, at the start of a save there are 24202 players with a dribbling ability of 11 or more. 20 years later the number sharply decline to 11911, 11124, and 13337 respectively. About a 50% reduction in players with a dribbling ability of 11 or more. Finishing shows an even larger reduction. 15128 players have Finishing ability of 11 or more at the start of a save. Number then reduces to only 4249, 3923, and 4938 respectively after 20 years.
Again, player attributes decline as a save progresses. Could address each attribute individually but I think the table shows the problem quite clearly. Also of note, all the attributes that show heavy decline are technical attributes for whatever reason.
There are also certain attributes among the regen database that are much higher compared to players at the start of a save. The report for these attributes is found below:
Agility/Balance-The two attributes that seem to be absurdly high when compared to the players at the start of the save. At the start of said save there were only 2602 players with an Agility ability of 15+ and only 1921 with a Balance ability of 15 or more. However, after 20+ years there were 10388, 9477, and 11002 players with an agility ability of 15 or more and 9254, 8072, and 9365 players with a balance ability of 15 or more. Teamwork and Flair also shows a similar trend.
I have attached the excel file of the full attribute analysis if anyone wants to take a look:
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On 21/12/2021 at 12:16, Daveincid said:
7. If you have questions, critics or you found a bug, please send me a PRIVATE MESSAGE. Do not spam the comment section with those things, as it might confuse or upset other people. I probably won't answer every question, please respect that.
Just curious as to what we can actually post in this thread? Great mod by the way.
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23 hours ago, _mxrky said:
Issue has been around for 5+ years and still not fixed
I tried to make my report as convincing as possible, as it's something that may seem minor but really affects long term saves. The data clearly points to something being wrong so I hope attributes for regens are tweaked. Would massively improve the enjoyability of a long term save.
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Here's a report a did on Regen fullbacks/wingbacks and reported on the bug tracker. It's under review so hopefully it'll get fixed:
In short, crossing and dribbling are poor among Regen fullbacks/Wingbacks when compared to real players. I avoid the issue by retraining, so I personally don't have this problem, however the AI doesn't do this so they deploy fullbacks/wingback who don't necessarily have the attributes to play a rather dynamic position well.
Also of note, Crossing is poor on all Regens regardless of the position they play. In my two test saves the game starts with 371 players with a crossing of 15+. After 20 years once the game is all Regens they were only 22 and 30 players with 15+ crossing (all Regens, no real players were playing anymore). A huge reduction in crossing ability across the database. I understand the talent level in 20 years isn't going to be the exact same as the one in the start of the save but a reduction from 371 players to 22 and 30 is rather excessive.
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3 hours ago, kjpro said:
@Sunstrikuuu could you not set BDP to pass short but then they will still have take more risks anyway so they lose possession more.. hmmm
BPD have Take More Risk hard coded into their instructions so they are more likely to perform a risky pass and possibly lose the ball. You can mitigate the tendency with PPM and other individual instructions as you mentioned but they'll still look for the risky pass. I'm sure you can build a great possession tactic with a BPD but I've personally have had more success with Regular boring CDs. I've found BPDs to be great in more direct tactics. I had a World Class BPD in one of my saves last year and his long ball passes where great in bypassing my hardworking but non-creative midfield.
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10 minutes ago, FrazT said:
@Yellowbucket58 Very good post, well researched. This would be a great value to the dev team, so can I please ask that you repost this with the attachment in the relevant subforum of the Bug Tracker and at least there the developers can have a look ?
I uploaded it in the All Other Gameplay section of the Bug Tracker. I think that's the correct section to upload it to as the other sections didn't seem appropriate.
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Something that has really annoyed me has been the lack of good regen fullbacks/wingbacks produced by the game. It becomes really noticeable during long-term saves when the game is mainly regens. This has been a problem that goes back to previous editions and has been reported but hasn't been addressed. I usually avoid the problem by training a CM/Defensive -Winger with the appropriate attributes, however, from what I've seen opposing teams don't really retrain positions, so they instead field a natural fullback/wingback that the game produced. Only problem is that the game doesn't produce the dynamic fullbacks/wingbacks that are needed for modern tactics, specifically meaning that the game produces fullbacks/wingbacks with poor dribbling and/or crossing leading AI teams to deploy players in a position they are not suited for. As this problem has been reported previously and not addressed, I've decided to provide actual data that hopefully shows the problem.
The first three tables (blue) display the crossing and dribbling ability for the top 50 regens (by current ability) considered natural/accomplished at the fullbacks/wingback position for different saves after about 15 years, while the last table (green) displays the crossing and dribbling ability for REAL players considered natural/accomplished at the position at the beginning of a save. As is quickly apparent, the regen fullback/wingbacks lack the crossing and dribbling ability those found in real players. The top 50 regen fullbacks/wingbacks in average had a dribbling ability of about 10-11, and a crossing ability in average of 9-10, with the second test having a low 8.38. In contrast, the real players in the beginning of the save had a a dribbling ability on average of 13.12 and a crossing ability of 13.78, much better than those found in the regens and attributes that correctly portray the technical ability that is needed for fullbacks/wingbacks nowadays. Took some time to collate this data but hopefully it'll prove useful. Will provide this in the bug tracker forum also.
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1 hour ago, Icy said:
I reported this in FM21 already but it’s also legacy from FM20 at least. The game is not producing quality FB/WB, most of the regens in that position are more CBs than FBs/WBs regarding the attributes, most of them with low crossing and dribbling attributes.
Here you can read my thread past year about it.
Might be worthwhile to report it in the bug tracker. The majority of Regen fullbacks do tend to be defensive minded and not really that technically great.
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Yeah, passing completion is way to high, teams are completing upward of 85% of their passes in my save. What really irks me is that "Accuracy/Inaccuracy" was noted as a thing they improved in the match engine, which according to them would have made "sure that errors on shots, passes, and headers is more realistic compared to real-life data." Their words, not mine. Don't know how the high completion percentage came to be if they were comparing the game results to real-life data. Surely testing would have quickly found the problem? Overall I'm enjoying the game but maybe don't advertise something as major feature if it isn't even working properly and still being looked into after release day?
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6 hours ago, Spinach said:Where should i play this guy? I am currently playing him at centre back but i feel like i am wasting his 16 passing.
Not at all. Having a good, in your case great, ball playing center back could be a great thing for your team. If you are playing a more direct style of football you could train him to have the try long range passes and switches ball to the other flank ppms. Great way to quickly bypass your midfield if they aren't the playmaking type and quickly get your wingers in dangerous positions.
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59 minutes ago, hursty2 said:
Yeah that's the one I was looking for, don't recall it being there but I'll pay more attention next time.
I dropped my line of engagement even before the first goal went in as I could see it coming. I think it was the CAM that damaged me, probably should have marked him.
Also, more BETA feedback. In that particular game I had 66% possession with 96% pass completion (659/688), it seems awfully high.
Previous games have been in the season:
2-1 AWAY WIN - 62% - 96% - (832/868)
1-0 HOME WIN - 62% - 94% - (750/802)
2-1 AWAY LOSS - 61% - 94% - (683/730)
2-0 HOME WIN - 53% - 95% - (585/619)Admittedly a small sample size but maybe a bit high? Especially for Dutch second tier team expected to finish mid-table. Playing a vertical tika-taka without the high defensive line and offside trap.
Yeah, passing completion is way to high, teams are completing upward of 85% of their passes in my save. What really irks me is that "Accuracy/Inaccuracy" was noted as a thing they improved in the match engine, which according to them would have made "sure that errors on shots, passes, and headers is more realistic compared to real-life data." Their words, not mine. Don't know how the high completion percentage came to be if they were comparing the game results to real-life data. Surely testing would have quickly found the problem? However, the game is still in BETA and I'm hopeful they'll make true to their promise as it was an advertised feature of the new match engine.
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I'm currently running a system similar to yours and what I've found that worked great is not using the TI Be more expressive. You're using a Treq, Mezzala, DLP, IW which are all inherently agressive, and expressive positions so using that TI is an overkill. Using that TI might lead to unnecessary risks which will lead in needlessly losing possession of the ball.
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What's your take on the performance of the right IWB after shifting the DM further left? I'm also currently playing a possession 4-3-3 and am also using a inverted Wing back on the right. Do you find the IWB is now more involved after the change?
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That does sound weird. I'm currently running pretty much the same tactic in my Barca save and things went pretty smoothly for me. Used a CF(s) instead of a DLF(a), a Mezzala (a) instead of cm(a) and a DM instead of a halfback. Pretty much all my squad specifically the attacking players have the PPM play one-twos which I've found to be important in breaking down the opposition when they're sitting back. Also tend to play on attacking mentality against lesser opposition and positive against tougher teams.
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Awesome post! Really motivated me to create a similar tactic to arguably Fergie's greatest team. Used a tactic similar to yours albeit with some different roles and instructions and also used it with a save that is about 15 years into the future. My team was constructed and youth developed to accommodate a possession heavy tactic that I've been using to great success. I'm not sure if its due to the specific development process I used to develop my player into highly technical players capable of playing such as possession oriented style of play, but most of my players specifically the forwards developed into technically brilliant footballers but not so much physically. Below is a picture of Toni Portilla one of my re/newgens that encapsulate the type of footballer I believe is needed to play a possession style effectively.
As I previously stated, technically gifted but physically ( acceleration, pace, balance, agility) lacking. My other two forwards are pretty much of the same mold. Anyway, I used the Ferguson tactic I had created for a whole season and as to be expected results were mixed. Finished 4th in the league and knocked out of the champions league quarter finals despite employing a team that had consistently made the later stages of the tournament routinely. I guess I thought I could brute force the tactic to work through my teams sheer talent level but that was not the case. As you mentioned, you really do need the right players, specifically the all important trident to be not only technically but physically talented, which was the part that most of my players lacked. Part of Ferguson's Man Utd that made them really special and dangerous was their ability to punish teams on the counter, which I guess isn't something you can accomplish with a bunch of forwards with 12 acceleration and 11 pace. Either way it was a fun experiment that really showcased the need for specific players to make certain tactics work and it also made me start a new save where the goal is to perhaps focus on the physical side of player development which I haven't really tried and see if i can then make the tactic work once the correct type of players have been developed/recruited. Once again, awesome post!
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Maxing the inside forward (winger in general)
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted · Edited by Yellowbucket58
It’s really hard to get wingers to score 30+ league goals in this years FM as it is in real life I suppose. I’ve also tried to maximize that position in this years FM but the IF usually caps out at around 20 non-penalty/set piece league goals with a regen player similar to Salah’s abilities ,which is the same output as Salah after that crazy season.
The only time I’ve consistently had a IF consistently score around 30+ non-penalty league goals was with Mbappe (Crazy Mixture of Pace/Technicals/Mentals) or as mentioned by @crusadertsar a IF regen that was as dangerous on the ground as he was in the air (Ronaldo). In my experience the hardest part is finding the player rather than getting the desired scoring output.