Enzo_Francescoli
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Posts posted by Enzo_Francescoli
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Places shots is indeed a godsend this year. Tries to round keeper, too.
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This thread is gold. Following.
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What tactics are you using? Have you changed it over the course of the save to accomodate your best players? Do you do game-to-game adjustements based on who you face?
I have just started a youth challenge with Sedan (French 4th tier), so I'm following this with great interest.
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I don't think one-on-one conversion rates can be traced back to anything tactical. A one-on-one is a one-on-one in every system. Granted, not all of them are created equal - angles matter, attributes matter, goalkeepers matter. Your tactical setup does not. I believe to try and find a tactical solution to a ME bug which has been acknowledged by SI as such is an exercise in vain, because no matter what you come up with, your players still won't convert these chances at the rate their attributes and the situation would otherwise dictate. What you can do is NOT build your system around through balls, which is especially infuriating because I love my direct attacks.
I could show you a game from my Dynamo Kyiv save where my players missed - by my count - four one-on-ones against a vastly inferior opponent and converted none. But the point here is that while constantly moaning about these bugs is pointless, not to mention boring, keeping a blind eye to them is equally so.
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42 minutes ago, koimes said:
Thanks Enzo. After you changes, would you still consider this a low block?
Well, no. Your original tactic isn't either. You have to lower the d-line for that.
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Option A: select shoot on site and create nice long-shot opportunities, they have better conversion rates than one-on-ones this year.
Option B: wait for the patch.
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Yeah, that's not gonna work on this game. Maybe situationally, the last 10 minutes as a huge underdog trying to desperately protect an unexpected lead, but permanently: no.
Soaking up pressure is one thing, but you also have to decide what to do with the ball when you have it. The way this one is set up, your attacking transitions are so slow that you aren't a threat at all. Once your opponents realize this, they will come at you at will. You don't even have counter ticked which would force your players to speed things up a bit.
You select less urgent pressing, but both your CM's are aggressive pressers. You therefore tone down the only two players that would go after the ball on defense. The rest of them just stand back and watch, really. On the flanks, you select the most static roles imaginable, there's no movement at all.
All that said, I think this tactic could actually work - with one major shift: Change the mentality to attacking and see what happens. That way, all the instructions with which you're holding your players back are there for a reason: to counter-balance the immense risk-taking that comes with the mentality. Additionally, I would make some other minor tweaks: change the TM's duty to support, which can create nice overlapping by the AM; have one of the WM's on attack (the faster one), the fullback on the other side on support and instruct this other WM to come inside. Add counter, pass into space and run at defence. (I would also change one of the CD's to NCB just for the hell of it.)
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10 hours ago, jordan_ye said:
However, in game, when those two play in cm slot and act as AP, there are no difference to playing AP in No.10 slot. AP in cm slot and AP in amc slot have the same required attribute set and same instruction, so what's the difference to players to play in different position if they just playing the same role.
You have to design your system differently if your No.10. is at central midfield compared to when he's an AM. Probably have to go with different formations in most cases. That's because, like you said, he will do his work between the opposition midfield and defence either way. Remember, the formation you set in the game is your defensive shape, which means if your AP is a CM, he will get back more. How efficiently is a different question, his attributes determine that. Going with your example, Manchester City's "free 8's" do push up in possession, but contribute more on defense if you play them at the CM strata. If you were only be able to put them to AM (where they actually are when City have the ball in the oppostion half, no doubt about that), it would result in a borderline unworkable, lopsided defensive shape, or, alternatively, you would have to pull the wingers back, which is not what Guardiola does, because he defends in a 4-1-2-3.
10 hours ago, jordan_ye said:My point is that role should be distributed logically in position in game. No.6 position should only have No.6 role while No.8 position should have logical no.8 roles. You can ask a no.8 player to play in no.6 position but the way he perform in that position should be comes from his profile and ability rather than the role.
That would be a huge step back to the tactics creator. There are simply no no.6. or no.8 positions in football anymore. You could categorize each player as a traditional No.6. or No.8 or No.10 by playing style, but they can play anywhere on the field. If your No.10 is a regista and he plays at what you call the No.6 position, he'll still go up and be an attacking midfielder when you have the ball, but gets the hell back when you lose it. Whereas a traditional trequartista will not. They require different systems and different CM's entirely. Liverpool's right back plays like a No.8 these days, almost like a No.10 some games. I, personally, want to have that freedom in the game. You can't assign a Kevin de Bruyne to the anchor man role and expect to be your primary playmaker, beacause that's not what anchormen do. He would make an excellent regista though. In that case, if you were unable to put a holding player (a No.6. type) to CM (the "No. 8. position"), your system would probably fail.
All that being said, I believe we should be able to set our attacking and defensive formations separately, complete with the ability to assign players to them. I actually made a feature request along these lines, but I doubt SI implements this in the near future.
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I believe modern football has made these numeric formations almost obsolete. No elite team stays rigidly in their defensive shape in possession anymore. I also think FM has kinda-sorta followed through this change.
A player can play like a No.6 at CM. Can play like a No.10. at CM. Hell, a player can be a No.10 at DM (see: Pirlo, Andrea) or AML (see: Gomez at Atalanta). A player can be a true No.8 but start at right midfield (Koke). You can set all these up in the game.
The AI or you or me, we can play Delle Ali as a DLP at CM all we want, but it won't go smoothly because of his defensive attributes, no matter how accomplished the game says he is. You play him as a CM(a) for example and cover for his shortcomings, it will work, because that's what Delle Ali does, that's what his attributes dictate.
There actually is a big difference between a No.6 and a No.8 player in the game. That is, if you play a No.8 guy in the role of a No.6, he's likely gonna suck.
Roles and movement are what matter, not initial position.
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On 14/12/2019 at 21:44, Jackoberto said:
I think you're sort of able to do this already with the roles for example your left back on Complete wing back and right back on Full back defend
One of your CMs on a attacking role and the left mid on inverted winger
I had tried something like that before I made the post. WB(a) on the left, NFB on the right (told to sit narrower), IW (a) on the left (sit narrower). The key word remains "sort of". Full-backs won't quite come inside to form a back three, and inverted wingers always start out wide and won't come behind the strikers.
Not to mention more daring formations, like a 4-4-2 on defend which turns into a 3-4-2-1 on attack, I believe Bordeaux uses that IRL, or, more famously, Bielsa's 4-2-3-1 which turns into a 3-3-1-3.
Long story short, this would be a great feature on the next edition.
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Yes. It would be great if we could set in-possession and out-of-possession formations separately. In modern football, those are often completely different, whereas in the game it's very difficult, almost impossible to achieve. For example, a team can defend in a 4-4-2, but in attack one fullback comes inside, the other bombs forward, the winger on the same side moves behind the strikers, and the attacking formation becomes a 3-4-1-2.
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I don't think it's impossible, but I do think it comes with a compromise. With those TI's, every single one of your players will position themselves higher in possession than they would otherwise. Out of possession, you instructed your DM to engage the opponent in the central third of the pitch (high lines will do that), so that's exactly what he's doing.
By the way, your formation allows you to give up a bit of compactness and go with higher LOE and standard d-line. I had a very successful tactic on FM19 with those settings, haven't tried on FM20 yet. Worth a shot and see how it goes, in my opinion.
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With high mentality, high lines, urgent pressing and counter-press, DM's will position themselves higher, though. There's nothing wrong with your player's position, it's what you told him to do via TI's. Also, you use shorter passing and play out of defence, so it's no wonder the DM will be your most prolific passer. Who do you think your fullbacks can pass to when they're instructed to keep it short but also forward (comes with positive mentality) and there's only one player in their vicinity?
If you want him to stay back deeper, lower the d-line or go with three CB's.
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By the way this is what I want to see when using a libero:
(Number 8 is the guy)
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21 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:
Hi thanks for the feedback.
Based on what youve said my tactic is getting quite close to your recommendation i think. I do utilise two very aggressive wing backs who will readily push on (using Mendy on support as his PPMs see him surge forward readily).
Im certainly looking for a very methodical approach but as your post suggests and my original query supposed, would the use of 2 midfield mezzalas sit wide and let the libero make a midfield 3 do you think?
Im currently using gundogan just as a straight forward CM to sit a little deeper and allow Bernardo Silva the space to cut inside.
Against weaker teams where i need creativity i have used a central 2 of De Bruyne and David Silva as twin mezzalas with David Silva left and De Bruyne right.
Twin mezzalas may aid a high press, defend from the front approach?
Thank you
I've never tried the twin mezzalas thing, because these systems already have aggressive wingbacks, so I suspect it would make your team defensively vulnerable to say the least. However, a team like City might just be able to pull it off, probably against weaker sides anyway. I'm intereseted how it works out for you. I mainly use a carrilero and a CM(s).
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A Libero CAN work, just not the way it used to in the golden age of the position. If you envision a Lothar Matthaus kind of player, who'll be your main playmaker, you're in for a disappointment. I've been experimenting with libero systems a bit and this is what I've found:
- only useful in possession-oriented tactics, that build methodically from the back
- you'll need to kind of clear his way, so no DM's or defend duty CM's, CM's preferably stay wider
- no playmakers in front of him
- wingbacks who bomb forward are essential, as they'll be the main target of the libero's killer balls
- play out of defence (duh)
- player traits are of utmost importance, most people will say "brings ball out of defence" is the most important, I prefer "tries long range passes" "switch ball to opposite flank" and "gets into opposition area"
- of all the players I tried, Saúl got the closest to my expectations, I'll say he's the ideal libero in this game. basically you need someone with dribbling, passing, vision, first touch, technique, decisions, off the ball, anticipation, some adequate defensive skills & the aforementioned traits
- if you want a Matthaus or Beckenbauer, use a regista. what the libero will do on FM is get to the opposition half, but not further up, and if you set things up right, will deliver nice balls to the wingbacks
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2 hours ago, westy8chimp said:
Yeh this was cautious mentality. Short passing and low tempo, with cautious... Means the other roles are very passive and the Regista can direct the game better... Which is what they are for.
You have very little chance of winning if you go a goal behind unless you change it up, so have a second formation ready
The mere fact that you don't get run over week after week using that in the Premier League is a revelation to me. Very rarely do I see anyone going on cautious as a base tactic, let alone using low lines. Which is probably no accident.
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1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:
Flatback 4, wb-s both sides. Bpd and CB both on defend.
Reigsta and anchor man in DM (cook won English player of the season as the regista)
Wing-s on the right side where the regista is, iw-s on the left.
AF and dlf-s upfront.
Lower line of engagement
Lower defence line
Regroup, counter
Shorter passing, lower tempo
Play of out of defence
Distribute to cbs
Had a lot of possession and some great passing moves... Cook dominated most games and actually got pretty high up the pitch in attacking situations.
Djangana at iw-s was very good. Possibly as this was a beta save and my goals came more from the wide areas than my strikers... Altho josh King as AF scored 19.
That on cautious mentality? You have low lines, one attack duty. Very interesting, a game changer, really, if something like that can work in this game.
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On 05/12/2019 at 13:02, westy8chimp said:
As others have said you need to explain better what you mean by defensive tactic.
I've played a 442 with Central midfielders as DMs two different ways successfully now.
With Bournemouth on Cautious mentality (so reasonably defensive shape and mentality).
And with Millwall on attacking mentality.
Same shape... Completely different roles and instructions. Both defensively sound and successful.
How do you set up the Bournemouth one and what are your experiences with it?
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It's not easy to judge from a few screenshots, but on defense your problem may be that there is no one player in that first set-up that can will win the ball. The CM(s) contributes on defense, sure, but it's not an aggressive role. The DLP(d) will hold position, but again, that's not a ball winner. I think that is why Schalke simply ran over you. An anchor man at DM or a BWM at CM may help.
On attack, most of your midfield will bomb forward, but on a balanced mentality, passing is relatively short and tempo is not very high. You ask your team to dribble less, which means they will try to pass around the ball, but what options do your DLP have for example.? Those roles and duties are not bad for a direct style of football, but then you gotta speed up the transition, so the opponent doesn't have time to get into their defensive shape. By that I mean you could go with direct passing, higher tempo. Lose dribble less, try run at defence instead. You'll need someone in the box, so change the striker's duty to attack, all the while add one more support duty to your midfield, the winger, for example.
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I'd say having both of your players that can provide any width to your attack on defend duty is probably a bad idea. They gotta bomb forward and the wider CM's have to cover for them, so no attack duties there. I'd even consider having them man-mark the opposing wingbacks. Counter-press is probably a must, so that the enemy doesn't have time to go wide on you. Up front, I'd go with a role that can keep the ball and hold onto it while the support arrives, so I'd change the F9 into a DLF(s) or TM(s), depending on who you have. I'd experiment with a Trequartista in place of the SS, because he'll go wide instead of attacking the box all the time.
I'm currently trying to set up a system not unlike Mourinho's Inter, he usually played a 4312 in the Serie A. I'll get back to you with what I've come up with if you're interested.
(Alternatively, press the living hell out of the opponent, go on an attacking mentality and count the wins...)
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Well..
Something tells me fancy stuff like xG are no way to assess tactics this year.. It's only wins and losses.
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I just had a really depressing tour over the tactics download section and the careers forum. Almost every single successful tactic uses high lines, urgent pressing and counter-press. Is that merely a coincidence? I don't think so.
The real challenge of this game is NOT to come up with a well thought out, sensible tactic that emphasises your team's strenghts and hides its weaknesses. No, the real challenge is to somehow create something without those very familiar out of possession instructions, knowing very well that you're chasing yourself into major disadvantages.
Too bad.
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Yeah, I think that's the biggest issue with the game right now. You can go and max out your pressing AND use an attacking mentality, and that can work like a charm. Whereas if you go to the other extreme, you fail.
Regardless, I can see the intentions of the game, as in every tactic is a balancing act. That's what we have to find. That infamous Barcelona-Inter game back in the day is an outlier, even Mourinho doesn't play like that every game.
The thing you mention is a great project of mine too. Based on my experience, I'd only consider less urgent pressing as a TI when on an attacking mentality or higher. If I want fast transitions, I go with at least a positive mentality. Low mentalities are better for possession-oriented tactics, but sitting deep is not one of them. I do think the mentality descriptions are a bit misleading, but the one thing I learned is defensively solid does not equal low mentality.
I have been trying out tactics with Atletico Madrid on FM20, where I install a tactic, then go on holiday for the season, let the assistant handle it, then come back and see how it did. I realize this experiment is inherently flawed because of the lack of adjustments: no one plays the same every game in real life. But it's fine for getting a general feel of tendencies.
I already posted the one tactic that won LaLiga for some other thread. I don't want to do it again, because it's such an abomination.
Here's one that had me concede more than one goal in only one game out of the 50 or so the team played (Barcelona 1-2, of course). To be fair, I wouldn't yet call it a successful tactic, because we still finished third by quite a large margin, and if I remember correctly, didn't even make it out of the CL group (I'm not sure, I don't save the seasons). I do believe that with constant adjustments and the right players, it can work as intended. Have to find an attacking punch, though. So I intend to develop it further. Less closing down is achieved via PI's, the DLP, the CB's and FB's are instructed to do so.
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Overlapping centre backs
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
I think you can get closer what Sheffield are doing this time around. The behaviour of BPD's have changed somewhat, they'll go forward more often. If you go with an attacking team mentality, use a BPD (stopper), select focus play through the middle, then they will have an attacking individual mentality. Add dribble more, use a high defensive-line, and you'll more often than not find your central defenders deep in the opposition half.