[Valeriy Lobanovskyi's Total Football]

2 minutes ago, josel15 said:

Just want to say that someone on dictate the game blog last year tried to emulate the great Lobanovskyi and is an excellent read. Looking forward to what you'll do

That is correct. @crusadertsar 's passion for Eastern European football and fascinating tactical experiments have been a great inspiration to me.

[Valeriy Lobanovskyi's Total Football]

We are very solid defensively.

Their No. 8. is surrounded by three of our players.

So we get the ball.

Pass it back to the CB.

Seizing the opportunity, the CB seeks the DLF (No. 9.).

The DLF plays in the AF (No. 10.)

The AF passes to the LWM (No. 11.)

Who now has acres  of space and plenty of options.

He gets it back to the AF (No. 10.)

The AF misses..

A 13-second attack, resulting in a clear-cut chance.

[Valeriy Lobanovskyi's Total Football]

Let's get onto some of the attacking patterns,

Please note the benefits of playing out of defence, but relying upon the gk's decisions where to distribute. We draw the opponent in...

But then send the ball way up to the DLF.

Who heads it down to the CM. The CM is all alone...

And can launch the ball the AF. Unfortunately, he hit it one bit too late and it's offside, but we're definitely onto something.

 

 

 

Here, we recycle the ball to the gk.

Who sends it up to the CM (No. 5.).

This time, the AF is not offiside.

He passes it back to other CM (No. 8.)...

Get in!

13 seconds from goalkeeper to goal.

[Valeriy Lobanovskyi's Total Football]

The third time around, we went with a low block.

Navas is starting to regret stepping onto the field.

Our No. 8. wins the ball.

And sends it up to our No. 10. Navas is far away. Does that look familiar?

It's two on one.

So he plays in the DLF (No. 9.).

It is done.

Who said football had to be complicated? 10 seconds from winning the ball to goal.

 

[Valeriy Lobanovskyi's Total Football]

For testing purposes, I played the same game three times. The second time around, all I changed was having our wide midfielders man-marking the opponent's full-backs.

Here, you can see all the positives and negatives of man-marking. No. 21. is our RWM and he sticks close to their left back. No. 11., our LWM is on their right back. This time around, their full-backs have no space, but that comes with disruption of our 442 defensive shape.

The right back has nowhere to go.

 

 

Thus, our LCM (No. 8.) wins the ball.

 

 

And immediately launches it to our AF (No .10.)

 

 

Who takes the ball down and heads for goal. It's one-one, thanks to us trapping their right back. All he needs to do is beat their slow centre-back.

 

 

He does exactly that and scores. According to the game clock, 8 seconds have passed from us winning the ball to it ending up in the back of the net.

[Valeriy Lobanovskyi's Total Football]

First, let's see our defensive shape.

 

 

Note how we're lining up in an almost perfect 442 shape. The two banks of four are clearly visible.

 

 

Again, two banks of four, with the stopper slightly higher positioned.

 

 

Every player besides the forwards is back defending. Each opposing player is directly accounted for, except for the full-backs. This time around, it is intentional.

 

 

Once the ball gets to the full-back, he's immediately closed down by our LWM (No. 11.), who's now defending just outside of his own box. Next, our LCM (No. 8.) gets to their No. 7., the full-back has no options and the attack ends in a blocked cross.

[Valeriy Lobanovskyi's Total Football]

The various threads about total football on this very forum, as well as a question on the quickire thread inspired me to revisit this long-term pet project of mine.

Lobanovskyi is perhaps still a somewhat unheralded figure of football history, outside of fans of the Eastern European game, that is. Those in the know, however, acknowledge him as one of the greatest football minds in the history of the sport.

I won't go into his philosophy in great detail, and that is mainly because there have been several people who are smarter than me (and have a better command of the English language) to have written about him. Jonathan Wilson dedicated a whole chapter to him in his popular book Inverting the Pyramid, and there are many more articles you can find online. Suffice it to say, that without Lobanovskyi, there is no Arrigo Sacchi and there is no Diego Simeone (the manager, not the player, of course).

Lobanovskyi adopted at least as many characteristics of the Dutch brand of total football as he deviated from. The trademark universality remains a core principle. Every player defends and every player attacks. Most positions and roles are interchangeable. There are no specialists on a Lobanovskyi side, and no designated playmakers whatsoever.

This Soviet, later Ukranian variation of total football however didn't emphasise ball possession as much as the Dutch lineage. While the players were expected to be technically sound, at least as much attention were paid to physical superiority. This philosophy was built upon high tempo, direct passing, intense pressing and the fastest transitions you'll ever see. It was heavy metal football, long before Jurgen Klopp famously created the term.

Two of the many footballing masterpieces created by Lobanovskyi were the games between Dynamo Kiev and Barcelona back in 1997 that I cited in the original post. I remember watching those matches as a teenage football fan, and also remember my jaw dropping every five minutes. Dynamo Kiev completely annihilated FC Barcelona, and they did it not once, but twice.

Later on, somewhat ironically, it was a Dutchman who created the greatest Lobanovskyi replica I have seen so far. Dick Advocaat married his Dutch heritage with the Eastern brand of total football, and his Zenit St. Petersburg side won the UEFA Cup in 2008, playing breathtaking football along the way.

Lobanovskyi always preferred a spare man on defense. An insurance policy at centre back if you like, whose job was staying deeper and sweeping up opposition threats while his partner often stepped out of the defence. The full-backs tucked in or stayed wide, depending on the strategy for the day. His preferred 442 often morphed into a 352, with the full-backs coming inside to join the sweeper and one centre-back playing as a quasi half-back.

The midfielders were interchangeable. While one wide midfielder usually stayed wide and the other came inside, and one CM was a tad more defensively oriented that his more creative partner, all of them contributed to both attack and defense, and, again, there were absolutely no specialists.

Since the rest of the team mostly relied on teamwork and tactical awareness, it was the forwards' job to do the magic on this Dynamo Kiev side (and the same was true for the great Soviet national team of 1980s). You may have heard of them: one was Sergiy Rebrov, the other, Andrei Shevchenko. Both of them legitimate world class players, they were lightning quick, great on and off the ball, with fantastic dribbling, and equally good creators and finishers. Neither of them was a pure flair player though, the press usually started with them.

So. How does all this translate to FM20? Well, I firstly need to state that a complete replication is not possible. For one thing, the kind of universality and position swapping that is a trademark of total football, is not yet achievable on the game. Furthermore, Lobanovskyi often applied man-marking principles to his tactics, which, as we know, is now totally out of vogue, both in the game and real life football. If you click on the article I linked in the OP, you will see that against Barcelona, Rebrov (a striker) was asked to man-mark the left back, while the RWM man-marked a central player. These instructions, when applied to FM20, will inevitably lead to chaos.

And yet. Fortunately, there are many of the principles that can be brought to the game, and they often result in very pretty football.

Perhaps unusually, I will post the actual formation and instructions last, mostly because it's just framework. It needs to be adapted and tweaked game-by-game, like all real life tactics for that matter.

The subsequent posts will show via images how these principles work in the game.

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

23 hours ago, Nix0n said:

Where to find the tactics of Lobanovsky Dynamo Kiev?
 

I made an attempt for FM19: 

It's still an ongoing project of mine and I would do several things differently now, but it's really difficult to recreate for a variety of reasons that transcend the boundaries of this quickfire thread.

Also, if I remember correctly, @crusadertsar had a series of posts about it sometime in the past.

[Total Football (Very Fluid)]

Well, once I applied the gegenpress preset to that tactic above, it performed much better than it should have in a million years. I simulated half a season with Atletico Madrid and these are the results:

 

Granted, there are a few games when our defending kind of collapsed, but...

BUT.. this tactic beat Real Madrid

BUT.. this tactic finished 1st in the CL group

BUT.. this tactic sits at 4th in La Liga only 9 points behind the first (real life Atletico is at 6th)

 

The lesson here is Everything Works Better If You Gegenpress. Which is Exhibit A why this current match engine is need of a complete revision startover from scratch.

Edit:

Here's the final one. Fullbacks are told to sit narrow. I'm sure that with some more tweaking, it could perform even more admirably. Something I will not be testing further.

[Total Football (Very Fluid)]

7 hours ago, gpassosbh said:

Has anyone here managed to put together a tactic with everyone with an attack mentality in FM 20?

Technically, it is possible. Good luck using that, though.

 

[Gian Piero Gasperini at Atalanta Case Study]

This is a great read. Micromanaging your players' attacking and defending movement, something I too have been experimenting with lately, should warrant its own separate thread.

[How would you use this lad?]

PF(a) seems to be the most popular answer which I simply don't get. You're Arsenal and this guy has 11 for concentration, 12 for teamwork, 10 for bravery and 5 for tackling. In no way would I use him as a PF(a). Frankly, I want all my goalscorers to have very good concentration, otherwise they will miss a bunch a chances. I think he's strictly a TM at this point. Could become a CF if you work on his passing and technique.

[Defending with 11]

I believe you can't have the best of both worlds. Support duty strikers with good teamwork will come back to defend, especially when the LOE is no higher than standard. I even saw my PF (d) defend in his own box (open play, not set pieces). If you have both strikers on attack, at least one of them will stay up. If one of them is a PF(a) and you set him to man-mark a DM or a full-back, he will track back most times, but the other one won't. At least that's what I've been seeing. Maybe you could put the other on man-mark too and tell him to press less. A PF(a) - DLF(a) pairing with both of them marking a DM or a CM could work. This could seriously handicap your attacking force though.

[Help me make a tactic from scratch...]

1. Set your LOE to much higher.

2. Set your pressing to extremely urgent.

3. Mentality to attacking.

4. Have at least four attacking duties.

5. Do whatever else you want.

6. Count the wins.

[Best Tactical Experience in an Older FM]

I, too, have stopped playing FM20 because of the match engine. You can still have success if you work really hard and give up a bunch of your principles OR press really high and extremely urgent (in which case the rest of your tactics almost doesn't matter), but it's no fun for me anymore.

Apart from the known and acknowledged issues (like the lack of central play), my main problem is that the engine seems totally random. You used to be able to spot issues with your tactics and adapt. Now I can't tell why one tactic works and the other does not.

FM19, while it started this whole 'gegenpress revolution', is still more enjoyable, but the database is obviously out of date. So, it's FM21 for me.

[[FM20] Tequila and Mariachi?]

Quick question: 

How do you eliminate the bad personalities? With such focus on youth development, you need all the talented players you can get. Do you simply not sign the youth players with less favourable personalities, no matter their potential, or do you sign the promising ones and then try to change their personalities via mentoring?

I'm doing an academy challenge and having a hard time deciding what to with the talented but low determination / unambitious etc. players from the youth intake. I'm already in year 7 and I don't have any mentors beacause my highly influential players are 20 years of age and - sadly - have lower determination than I'd like. But this also means that my most talented young players with good personalities will see their determination drop gradually, beacause of the leading players' influence, even though my squad's personality is professional. It's a neverending struggle and I can't sign any players to replace my "stars". So I either risk our results on the pitch by selling them (a process I have reluctantly started) or the development of our youngsters (the best of which the board keeps selling before I can develop them). Man, you gotta love youth challenges..

[How would you go from a flat 4-4-2 in defence to a narrow 4-4-2 diamond in attack? Both guidance and discussions appreciated]

You can of course see by watching them play. There's some analysis online, quite a bunch I guess, these are good, for example:

 

 

 

https://www.coachesvoice.com/tactical-analysis-atletico-madrid-2-juventus-2/

 

They sort of used this against Liverpool yesterday, but after the early goal, they went defense first, and then substituted Lemar (the tip of the diamond) at half time.

 

Your idea with the IWB looks intereseting. Strictly speaking, it's not a midfield diamond, but may be easier to set up in FM. Do tell how it looks in the game.

[How would you go from a flat 4-4-2 in defence to a narrow 4-4-2 diamond in attack? Both guidance and discussions appreciated]

It sounds like something that Atletico Madrid plays this year. I think I made a post about it a few weeks ago. Watched a lot of their games.

I've been trying to replicate it on FM, but the wide players in the 442 won't come inside enough to form a clear diamond in possession. The closest I got went something like this:

WP(a)            CAR(s)                 DLP(d)                 WM(s)

The WM is told sit narrow and cut inside. Wingbacks on overlap. TI: narrow width.

Another try was an assymetrical one which will more or less keep the 442 shape on defense:

IW(a)

                     CAR(s)                                              WM(s)

                                                   DLP(s)

Again, the IW doesn't quite move into a No.10 position as much as I would prefer, but I kind of liked this one, especially with high pressing. It could totally kill the opponent's build-up on their right side.

Yet another option could be to use an F9 as the tip of the diamond, but I have so far been experimenting only with the midfield shape.

[[Beta v2031] Looking for help with my newly promoted squad]

Well, I would guess both Chelsea and Leicester are far superior to your team, so it's not that bad a start.

Some suggestions to try out:

- overlap right is fine, but I would lose focus play on the left. the whole idea is to build up play on the right, so the W(a) can act as a third forward and be a terror at the far post

- I'm not a fan of a DLP(d) at central midfield as he won't ever move. you need the entire midfield to contribute in the final third, so a support duty should work better.

- if your players keep hoofing, consider adding shorter passing until you get better players. it won't go against the counter-attacking style. I had the same issue in my LLM save with a tactic very similar to what I suggested, but that in combination with distribution to full-backs more or less solved it. 

- low d-line won't do you any good. experiment with higher d-line and hard tackling if you see the opponents coming at you at will.

[[Beta v2031] Looking for help with my newly promoted squad]

No, I suggested De Rycke as a W(a) on the left. Nevermind he doesn't have positional familiarity, he'll learn it soon enough.

[[Beta v2031] Looking for help with my newly promoted squad]

Well, you don't give us too much information, but based on the images, your team can play a nice 4-4-2. Judging from the star ratings, you are one of the worst teams in the division, so keep it simple.

I would play De Rycke as a W(a) on the left with a FB(s) behind him. The other flank would feature an IW(s) and a WB(s) - a player with acceleration, crossing, dribbling, off the ball plus the required defensive attributes. Since you have a bunch of natural DLP's, that's one of the central midfielder roles. The other one - well if you don't have anyone who can play BBM or Mezzala, go with a BWM(s). Up front, Lopes is a real good player, he can play anything, even complete forward. Give him an attack duty and tell him to dribble more (not that he wouldn't  do that anyway). I would be real tempted to play Gudjohnsen as a TM(s) with those physicals. If only his bravery was higher. The heading, too. Train him Aerial as the individual focus training, I think it will improve both of those. Put the TM(s) on the same side with the W(a).

Based on the measurables of your CD's, they have strength and jumping reach, so you can defend narrow. If they're slow, keep the d-line at standard. Go with higher tempo to speed up the transitions, hit the early cross to get the ball to strikers as soon as possible. Ideally, De Rycke will bomb up and the down the left flank and cross the ball, but also get to the end of crosses by the IW and the WB. He and Lopes can feed off the TM(s). The DLP can play through balls and the BWM can get long shot opportunities. If it's working, that's at least four routes to the opposition goal without giving up defensive solidity.

I would tick counter and regroup, the latter of which is really strong in the beta patch.

[Importance of Balance Attribute in a Possession Tactic]

My most successful tactic on FM19 was something very similar to what you have arrived at. It had a regista, a mezzala on attack and a CF(s). So the playmaker and the ball-winner switched places compared to your tactic (it's essential to win the ball back higher up the pitch). It also had a raumdeuter instead of the IF, because we started dominating our league very early into the save and every team parked the bus against us. It had only one IWB though and a tradtional winger on that side (who would still cut inside a lot).

My point is that the regista is probably greatest role if you want to have a possession-based style with one mastermind behind it all who pulls the strings, like Riquelme was back in the day. We would spend most of the games camping in the opponent's half and the regista was always available as the grand distributor.

Come to think of it, all of my tweaks over the seasons were made to tone down the possession numbers, because I don't like that kind of football (the game does, unfortunately).

I checked Mata's attributes and I don't think he can play regista. He does have off the ball, but lacks acceleration. Oyarzabal, on the other hand, would make an excellent one, especially with intensive training to improve his flair. Just something to consider.

Great read.

[Newly promoted side, setting up the 4141]

Test it first, by all means, so you'll see the issues (if any), then you can adjust.

In theory, I would suggest the following:

- change the IWB to FB(s), this setup can potentially leave your right side exposed

- agree with removing the carrilero, it's a role more suited to possession football anyways, because it won't go forward too often and will not take many risks

- based on those traits, I'd consider Majer as an AP and Deck as the mezzala (I don't know the attributes though)

- for counter-attacking football, I usually prefer at least one attack duty striker, you need someone in the box

- if you want a direct attacking style without the hoofing, pass into space and hit early crosses is the way to go, you can even select shorter passing and your team will still play direct when it's on

- most importantly, opt in to the beta patch! I won't pop the champagne just yet, but it seems like you can actually play defensive football now

[Ambiguities in Individual Mentality and Creative Freedom]

The inside forward is a very attack-minded role. I think it's only natural that on a positive team mentality, that guy will be on a very high individual mentality, because that's what inside forwards do. Their job is to score goals, even on a support duty. Change it to an inverted winger for example, and that one will be on positive. Furthermore, if you choose overlap, the inside forward will drop to attacking. It is still possible to influence individual mentalities without changing team mentality. But if you go with an inside forward (basically a striker on the flanks) AND elect to attack your opponent (positive mentality), don't expect your guy to hold back.

The real confusion, I think, stems from the fact that if you change your IF to attack, his mentality is still very attacking. While there must be a difference between him on support and attack, the interface will show that it's the same. So instead of labels, we need scales or at least more categories than we have now.

[Atletico Madrid Struggles 4-4-2]

For a quick reference, AI Simeone regularly uses this formation:

                                   PF(d)                     DLF(s)

W(a)                          DLP(s)                   MEZ(a)                                IW(s)

FB(s)                          CD(d)                    CD(d)                                  FB(a)

                                                    SK(d)

He (it?) usually goes with a Fluid Counter or Vertical Tiki-taka playing style, both of which utilizes shorter passing and intense pressing. I believe that's more or less true to his real life style. His counter attacks are lightning-quick, true, but there's no hoofing for Atletico, they're more based on short, but fast combinations.

Now, I've tested that formation, and it doesn't quite work. After watching a lot of games on comprehensive, I've concluded that the reason why it doesn't work is.. because it just doesn't.. There's no one or two main issue that makes that setup not very effective. For example, that striker combination works surprisingly well, they score goals, they come back to defend and they counter-balance the more adventurous center midfield. Granted, I tested it in the French Ligue 2. You need to have the players is what I'm trying to say. AI Simeone uses Saúl as the mezzala, which probably makes him the most defensively reliable mezzala in this world. An so on.

In real life, he plays differently this year with Griezmann, Rodri, Hernandez gone and Saúl kind of sucking.

 

This is my attempt at last year's Atletico:

 

:

 

This year, it's more of a midfield diamond in possession, with Partey a clear playmaker in front of the defense, with a much more expansive passing range than Rodri had, The latter just recycled the ball and featured heavily in the build-up, which is what a DLP on defend does in the game. This year, both the fullbacks go forward, as they are the ones to provide width, beacuse Koke comes inside to join Saúl in front of Partey, and whoever the attacking wide player is, he's an AMC in possession. Saúl almost plays like a Carrilero this year, he stays wider and covers. In no way are both strikers on an attack duty in a Simeone system. He usually plays the combination one big powerful guy and a shadow striker type who links play. Both of them press like madmen and come back to midfield if necessary, so no Trequartista there, either. There are one or two games at most every year when Simeone goes with a low block like that one in the OP. He even played with a high d-line away against Juventus. That game, Atletico was very compact (lower LOE), but they press very high when they see fit. That changes inbetween games, even during games. 

In conclusion, there are clear templates when designing a Simeone-esque system: fluid setup, tactical discipline, quick counters, 4-4-2 defensive shape, localized but intense pressing. In FM terms, that's a lot of support duties, higher tempo, pressing urgency via PI's and generally a bunch of players with work rate, teamwork, composure, concentration. Other than that, you probably have to adapt the tactic week-to-week, like real life Simeone does.