Tsuru

One of the most interesting things about football is that you can win using many different ways and strategies. You see, I also read Cleon´s guide and I did try to use his method, but it never worked well for me. So I did try other ways...until I found the suggestion of playing with different strategies depending on match expectations/opponents. I have three ready tactics and I switch among them - it is that simple. Normally it is one "attack", one "counter" and one "park the bus". Is the opponent weaker/almost same level than me? I start with "attack" and change to counter if things are not going well, if I score a goal etc. If I got a really good lead I change to park the bus. Is the opponent stronger than me? I start with "counter" and see how things are going. Is the opponent much stronger than me? I start with "park the bus" and I pray for a draw. If the game is still on a draw at the end of the match I change to "attack" and try a "smash and grab" victory. Normally all three tactics have the same formation and kind of similar roles/duties, so the change is simple and easy. For me that is much, much more simple than trying to play the same way against very different opponents.

You see, I don´t see any glaring issues with the roles/duties and I like the Balanced mentality. I also think the 4-4-2 is very good as a formation. It happened with me many times before - although my tactics were good, overall balanced and I had players for it, something was never working completely. We always used to start the seasons very well but finish them with lots of difficulties. What I was doing wrong? I really think that FM has evolved a lot on the strategical side but we still fail to see it. I really believe we need to be more strategical and less tactical managers. Not every opponent will play the same way, no match will be the same and we need to create ways to adapt, even if it is a simple one. This topic helped me a lot developing a tactical system and adapting my strategy and I cannot play with just one simple tactic anymore. Read it carefully and maybe it can inspire you too:

Yeah, you were right about the CMs/DMs. Moving them up or down the field adds a complexity layer that, although can be manageable, can make things more complicated. Sometimes we have players that do well both positions, but sometimes we don´t. I also felt that the 4-2-3-1 was too risky and the 4-4-1-1 was not being good enough on counter attacks. In fact, the 4-4-1-1 is a complicated formation because it lacks a lot of power on the flanks on the last third. So I thought that, if I really want to change the strategies and become more flexible, I should stick with the same formation. Then I decided to go with a 4-4-2: simple, easy and very flexible. I used some tactics from Rashidi´s YouTube channel as templates for the more attacking formation, which is this one... ...and for the counter 4-4-2, which is the one below. For the most defensive strategy - used on games against very hard opponents and to hold on comfortable leads/end of matches - I decided to give it a chance to FM´s 4-4-2 Park the Bus template. I saw a video on YouTube in which the tactic worked very well and I thought that on some circumstances it could be useful. The first tests with this system went very well, including good matches using Park the Bus when necessary, but then I decided to stop playing FM. I came back recently with a new save and I have been playing pre-season, now using this system from the very starting point. Despite the tactics itself, I think that being flexible is key here. If we always adapt our strategy we have much more winning chances than trying to insist on playing always the same way.

As you are predicted to finish bottom half, you will have probably 3 kinds of matches during the season: Matches when you are the favourite team and you are expected to win, probably at home and against teams which are expected to finish lower than you on the table; Balanced matches, against teams which are expected to finish near you on the table (just below or a little bit above); Difficult matches, the ones against teams which are expected to finish at the top of the table, or the ones on the national cups against teams from the Premier League. I really believe that you need a different game strategy for each kind of match I described above - let´s say, play aggressively against underdogs, play on the counter on balanced matches, try to avoid suffering goals/take a smash and grab victory on difficult matches. Why? Because no team plays the same, all matches are different and you will probably may need options and alternatives for different situations (like playing more defensive after scoring 1 or 2 times against an underdog). The 4-3-3 DM is a good formation and you can develop different approaches for each strategy with little tweaks on roles, duties and instructions, without changing the formation. Why I am telling you this? Because for almost a year I got really frustrated with my tactics on FM until I realized that I needed a more strategic approach and I am really satisfied with it, so I always recommend.

So your logic is on a good direction overall, that is, seeing your tactic I could understand what your intent is. I think that is a very important point. As I said, you are looking for kind of a hybrid style - attack quickly and with shorter passing when necessary, have patience when speed is not useful, press high but not so high that your team is exposed. I would say that this can be hard to do on FM sometimes - why? Because at the same time you want to counter when there is an opportunity (something more related to the Counter TI), but you would like to have patience when there is no space around (something more related to Work Ball into Box). Although you can use some combinations to create this effect, I am not sure if these same combinations can confuse your players ("should I counter quickly or should I wait for space to appear?"). So my suggestions are always a starting point, you will have to change and tweak until you see that the desired effect is happening - and sometimes it will still not be perfect, although it can be near what you want. You said that you did well at first season and that performance dropped recently, so I would avoid changing everything - it may be a matter of adjustment instead of changing everything. I would start with adjustments on your roles and duties and just a minimal optimization on your Tis. So for roles and duties you can test these ideas, on a very practical and simple way and without me trying to be too theoretical: Use the advanced wide midfielders on different duties - one on attack, the other on support, as this can help creating balance and new passing lines. If you change the IW to a Support duty, I would then use the Wingback on Attack or a Fullback on Attack on the left side, covered by your DLP-D and your BWM-Su. If you change the W to a Support duty, maybe a FB-Su on the right is enough. The CM-At is very aggressive and the IWB roam can expose you on that side. But you can test a W-Su, CM-At and IWB-Su as well and see if it works. Adjust the "third midfielder"/striker pair in order to generate better attacking patterns. If you prefer to keep the PF-At, maybe the CM-At can become an AP-At or RPM-Su. The PF-At is a goalscorer, so he may need players around creating chances for him. If you want to keep the CM-At, maybe you can change the PF-At into a DLF-At. The CM-At is something like a "deeper Shadow Striker", a fast player that moves aggressively into the third half looking for opportunities to enter the box and shoot on goal, so he may benefit from a player that moves deeper and holds the ball for him. Regarding TIs I would start with minimal adjustments in order not to collapse your system: Remove Underlap Right (as it does not look necessary, you already have a third midfielder moving aggressively on that part of the field); Remove Counter-Press (risky instruction, I would not use it always); Remove Tigher Marking and Get Stuck In, remove Prevent Short GKD (not necessary), move the defensive line one notch up). Play some games, test some ideas and see how team works like that. Then you can start tweaking based on what you are not liking and based on what is working. Have fun!

Your tactic looks to mix up aspects from more possession oriented football (Play Out, Work Ball, a DLP-D, the use of an Inverted Winger as a second striker) with aspects from a more quick and fast approach (Higher Tempo, Counter, a Ball Winning Midfielder and a Winger on Attack), creating kind of a hybrid style. It would may be described as something like "press high and quick and when you gain possession, move the ball fast but without direct/long passing". Is that your intent? Why I am asking you this? Because if we know what you want to achieve, it is easier to say where you can improve, that is, which roles may fit your system better, or what team instructions could be tested to be removed (or added). Everybody in Football Manager wants to win, the trick is knowing what strategy we are using for it and if it is working well In general I don´t see any big glaring issues on the roles and duties, but I think when your intent is clear it would be easier to give you some suggestions and ideas.

TBH I don´t look at this influence part...normally I look just at the personalities. I know it is not the complete way, but looking everything would take a lot of time and probably overcomplicate things so I focus on the personalities.

I did try to use them on FM Touch 20 when I started playing it, but it really seems to overcomplicate things. Why bother with a specific scenario when I can simply do the changes myself? Tactical building and adjusting takes time, it is normal, but working with match plans adds even more time to the equation. I was taking so much time to create the plans that I simply stopped using it and I don´t miss it.

I disagree with this point. Normally my best young players are moved into the first team but they only play matches for the sub teams. This way they do the mentoring with older players but they still play matches with their colleagues from the same age. I play FM 21, so I don´t know if this changed in 22. That said, my mentoring is very simple: groups of three players in which we have two "good" personalities and a "bad" one. Sometimes I need to create groups of four, then I try to put three "good" personalities for one "bad". Until now I had good results on personality changes, not just with younger players but also with a loaned one which has been on the club for 2 seasons.

You see @Jack722, I have been facing some troubles to develop a tactic and play it exact the same way on FM 21 against every team. Maybe I am more suited to an adaptative style like yours, however I have never tried it. I developed here a system based on our ideas and I will start testing it. You see, I added a more complex layer here as I moved the DMs up on the counter tactic, and also the Positive one is a two CM 4231. I also left the more attacking tactic just on Positive, this way I can add instructions to our attacking strategy if it is really necessary. I will let you know how this is working/developing.

Yes I prefer the honest feedbacks. Everything always works in theory, when we move up to the field and play, then things are for real. And sometimes our best ideas simply don´t work.

This version looks better to me. I agree that FBs are better than WBs regarding PI customization and also defending without a DM, that´s why I suggested FB-Su/FB-At on the flanks. You have an IF-At which is a goalscorer, so I don´t think you need another one in the box. Maybe you can try a DLF-At which will help on buildup and also score some goals. If that is the case I would turn the AP-Su into an AM-Su. I didn´t suggest you to remove Play out of Defence, I like that instruction. Which I just pointed out is the use of Play out + Work Ball + acceleration instructions (Higher Tempo, Counter) may create a contradiction between more oriented possession PIs and fast tempo PIs. As FM is not clear about the point in which PIs can be combined and the point in which they create a contradiction, it is safer to follow a simpler path.

I have a theory - supported by many things I read here at the forums - that any problem in FM is mainly related to our role/duty selection. Of course TIs and PIs can be a problem, but they tend to make things better or worse instead of being the main issue. So starting with roles and duties, I think your team is split into two different groups: you have a defensive line with both fullbacks on support duties and your front line has 3 attacking duties behind a CF-Su. You play on a Positive mentality, so attack duties tend to make the players bomb forward sooner. What I think tends to happen here? Your front players tend to move forward soon and the back line is more conservative, so your fullbacks, CBs and DLP-D have to lump the ball to find the front players, which results in possession losses and maybe counter attacks. There are many possibilities here, but maybe I would consider the following: Move the DLP-D to the left and change the FB-Su into a WB-Su (or FB-At). This way you would put your defensive pivot (DLP) behind your IF, covering a fullback that moves up the pitch and helps opening space for your IF-At (which will benefit from a bombing fullback to help him finding space). Move the BBM-Su to the right, change him into a CM-Su, change the WB-Su into a FB-Su and put a support duty on the IW. Why? The BBM moves around but he could occupy the same space of the IW, something that the CM does less. A FB-Su will move up the pitch on a positive mentality but will do that on safer situations, and a IW needs less from a bombing fullback than the IF (because the IW just moves inside with the ball). I also think that your out of possession instructions are a little bit too aggressive for a Positive mentality. I would consider dropping them down a bit, but this is something very personal. My preference would be leaving just "Higher Defensive Line" and then adding "Press More" PIs on the front 4. I would also remove Counter-Press and add it just if you really feel it is necessary, because makes the game faster and can overcomplicate things. Play out of Defence + Work Ball...are more related to a possession system, but you added Higher Tempo on a Positive mentality. I consider Tempo a very sensible instruction and it can lead to lots of balls being lumped forward (something worse due to the role/duty selection), so I would consider removing it. These are some ideas and suggestions, maybe test them and tweak a little until you find the right balance.

RMT is a good tool but it still needs some improvement, yes. As a starting point it works well but it is theory, then we have to test and tweak based on what we see in game, which is the real practice. Besides the striker partnerships I also figured it out the CBs problem, it now has lots of restrictions using Stopper/Cover which I think makes a lot of sense on formations without a DM. I think all mentalities work like that maybe except Balanced, you have a risk starting point than you tweak/tune up or down to find balance. My tactics with Positive were always very irregular, let´s see if I have more success tuning up a lower one.

That is the interesting part. I started with Cautious and I am adding more risk until I find the right balance - like higher lines, more pressing, 4 attacking duties, a Trequartista, this way I can avoid sterile possession. I also realized that possession should be part of the game, the basic principle, but not an objective itself. You see, from the three goals we scored, two were from crossings and one from a long shot, so no goals from "tiki taka passing". Also this way I can add other instructions if necessary, for example Pass into Space (to encourage more risky passes). But I have to play more games to confirm this. Maybe Guardiola´s Barcelona was more "Cautious", that is, patient possession playing, but football adapted itself really quick, the same way we see on FM, then it started to be more "sterile possession" and he changed it. But that is another discussion

@Johnny AceI have been working on an aggressive possession football 4411 based on the roles/duties you suggested, following some principles: Cautious mentality Shorter Passing + Play out of Defence Distribute to CBs + Distribute Quickly Higher DL + Higher LOE + More Urgent It is a little different approach, I consider the Cautious mentality to be more suited to a possession system (Guardiola and alike), the Positive one would be more like a pass and move style (Sarri/Klopp and variations). But more than that we are a LLM team, so maybe playing with less risk will be easier to manage. The first game was very nice, we won 3-0 with very good possession play. My IW-At scored the three goals: one on a very nice individual sprint, the other two on crossings from the right side, one from the WM-Su and the other from FB-At. So far so good, I will keep working on this and do a separate post to share with people here when it is ready. Thank you!

Yes it did, now for example the IWBs work much better - before they were always "rejected" by the tool. I am not convinced by the Mezzala either, or a roaming role. I consider that an interesting option would be a playmaker on this hole, either DLP or AP, so he stays more static behind and the IW moves ahead of him. It is also worth a try and it makes more sense regarding roles and duties, even if I have to remove the Hold Shape TI.

Thank you. I think I will try something like this: According to RMT the Mezzala is a good option here to use with the Hold Shape, and I think it works nicely ahead of a IWB-D (or WB-D) when we don´t use DMs. But the BBM and CM-S are also options here. The AM-Su also makes sense on a possession system for me so I will try with a DLF-At. I will also start with the "basic possession" instructions and maybe add lower tempo, or dribble less, if we are wasting possession. And I will start with a basic defensive instruction, Higher DL + press more urgent PI on the front men (or Higher DL + More Urgent TI), if I need to be more aggressive I can move up the LOE and tune it.

Yes, that is what I want. Press back, score goals, play nice attacking football. In fact FM´s TIki-Taka is related to patient possession using the Positive mentality. The more vertical, quickly version is the Vertical Tiki Taka. But they are not so different itself, so I can consider a change on that side too. Or maybe I can try just to tune down a bit the one I am using. Another interesting observation about the flanks. I used on some games a different combination: IW-At paired with a supporting midfielder and a DLP-D on the other side, giving support to a IWB-S which moves inside, based on a topic I found here at the forums. Maybe this second versions makes more sense and is more "movement wise" than the one I showed here.

You see, I felt that some pieces were not being put well together, that´s why I created the topic. I just couldn´t see what pieces. That is the best part of sharing tactics and asking for help. So you would consider maybe a DLF-At upfront, FB on the left, WM on the right, maybe try removing Work Ball into Box and moving up tempo a notch...but you would probably keep the IW?

Thank you for your reply. Moving the ML and MR up would be a good idea, but at the moment I would prefer not to change the formation. The results in general are very good and I am afraid I can do more harm than good with big changes. I considered an SS, my concern is the use of a very direct player on a possession based tactic - and I also have creator CAMs that can play the role although they are not specialists. But it can be an option, for sure.

Yes, I have that same feeling. Also you can create diamonds using roles and duties on a 4312 or 4132 in a much more flexible way than on a diamond 442.

Hi. Me again. I am still playing with Wrexham, after more than a year, and now we are at League 1. Our team has improved a lot during the past seasons and now my assistant suggests that we are a good team to play on a Tiki Taka style. I did try it, although with some small tweaks on the in transition/out of possession instructions, and using a created from scratch formation/roles/duties. The "In transition" instructions also include "Distribute to Centre-Backs" and "Distribute Quickly" (although the latter has been removed on some occasions), which are not available on Rate my Tactic. I also added the PIs "Press More Urgent" on the central striker, the CAM and both wide midfielders (Winger/Inverted Winger). We were expected to battle against relegation but surprisingly everything went very well, we were on 1st place during the most part of the competition and now we are 4th placed, fighting for a direct promotion/title. So I think my assistant suggested well and we are doing a good season. However there was a little slump on the past months, and I suspect this is related to our free kick/corners not working as well as on the beginning of the season. The points which I like: The combination of Counter-Press + standard lines + split block on a low block formation has proven itself very solid. We are in December and only lost 3 matches and suffered more than 1 goal just twice. The result of the combination in general is very good: we play aggressive football, we camp on opponents´ fields and we start moving the ball around until a space appears, and we create many chances. The points which I don´t like: As we were not the relegation team anymore, opponents started to close the center of their box and deny spaces, and we couldn´t find ways of opening packed defences. I have a second tactic more quick and direct but even changing to it did not open the space as I expected. I use an Inverted Winger on Attack in order to have an extra man attacking the box, however the one who attacks the box much more is the Winger. The Inverted Winger itself is a problem: when he plays besides the Mezzala he becomes a natural Winger and starts to cross, if I move him to Support duty the team is much more sterile, and when he plays ahead of the WB-Su he helps a little on the buildup when on Attack duty, and on Support he has a hard time doing anything. The Mezzala is important here, he should be our creative outlet, move around and spread passes, but he helps little on buildup and always leave a lot of spaces behind him. The striker/CAM partnership is so hard and irregular to define. The DLF-S/AM-At was the best one I could find, but the AM-At attacks the box too late and this results in many sterile possession: we move the ball around but lack aggressive on finishing. I did try DLF-At/AM-S, PF-At/AM-S, AF-At/AM-S etc., but the "more direct strikers" (PF, AF, P) are not involved a lot on buildup and tend to wait for a longball, which in many situations result in a possession loss or a situation in which the striker needs to do anything alone. Before changing everything to a different system - which I don´t think is necessary, as in general it is working - I considered some adjustments on the first version but would like to hear some opinions and insights: Maybe the Inverted Winger could become a Wide Playmaker on Support, with a FB-At behind him and alongside a CM-D? Max Robson can do both roles (IW/WP) and maybe it would add a new creative outlet to the team. Maybe the Mezzala could become a Box to Box Midfielder? Onyango can do both roles and maybe he would move around, arrive in the box, but help more defensively. I am not sure if a BBM can do well on a possession style, however. A Wide Midfielder instead of a Winger on the right would help on possession more and maybe avoid too many crossings, or the Winger is nice to add some speed and a different way of playing in a possession style? Joe White was a fullback before I moved him to the midfield and he can do both roles. I considered changing the striker to a Trequartista, which moves around, has a lot of creativity etc., and Eliott Still is a good one although he is a natural AF. But as a Treq he would help less on the pressing...and who would be the CAM behind him? SS/N10 is a classic partnership, but they look to me very direct and I am not sure it would work here, also Oseni is a good SS but not very good (he and Peris-Jones are much more creators than scorers). Would you opt for a different CAM/striker partnership here? Maybe some adjustments on the TIs could help on attacking process? I tested removing Dribble Less and Hold Shape (separately), but I figured it out the team started to rush play more than necessary. You see, as in general it is working, it is very hard to say what could be adjusted. Maybe move tempo and/or pass one notch up? Maybe remove Work Ball into Box? I would accept some ideas on that. Thank you and let´s take this 4411 possession into English´s Premier League!

I think shouts are a valuable tool, but the way they are today they became very complicated to use - I preferred the old ones. So I tend not to use them.

I did try a pair of Carrileros but on a 4-4-2 diamond we lacked creativity and the burden for the AMC was too high. As you said we need really good fullbacks which are very hard to find on smaller teams, so playing with wingers is easier in our situation.