[Who to make it work in fairly and extreme wide Team instruction]

I've used wider setting in posession when i want to create overloads, FM21 changes to Focus Play has a big impact in this. For example you can focus some support duties in one side and play wide with focus play there while on the other side of the of the pitch you have someone attacking that space (An IF(A), RMD, CWB, etc). When you focus your possession on one side you are forcing your oppont to react and bring numbers with them to defend your numerical superiority and if you have someone who can switch the play when they adapted their shape, you can leave this player that is attacking the space with a good 1v1.

I think it depends more on your shape and how do you use this width. Do you use it to play crosses? Or do you want to find players in the half space and your opponent is too narrow? Can you cover the space when you lose the ball or do you have too many players bombing and leaving gaps in the middle? Those can help you have an idea to when using width is a good choice.

['Binary' team instructions]

Mentaily is the first thing i would look into as it changes the risk that all your team takes (The pressing, the tempo, the passing, even the aggressiveness after losing the ball), after that the roles and the players individual mentality comes into play as there are roles which encourages pressing (Pressing Forward, Ball Winning Midfielder) and others that like more to stay in position or not engage too much in pressing (The anchor man stays in his position more, the TQ press less than other roles in his position), then the players attributes come into play (Their Work Rate, aggressiveness, stamina, determination, anticipation and decisions) and then the TI and the PI (Are you telling them individually to press more or less? Are you telling your team to mantain a high pressure game whenever you dont have the ball or are you more cautious and prefer to wait for the right moment? Do you engage up the field with your LoE and DL or do you stay lower and soak up preasure.

The Team instructions are only one layer behind your players decisions on the pitch. Mentality, Roles and Attributes are the things that plays a bigger part.

This is my opinion based on my experience with the game, take it as that and not as a rule.

 

 

[433 3CM]

I personally think the Carrilero role is better used in a one man wing tactic so he can cover that space that the WingBack/Wide Midfielder have alone. I see that your tactic is very balanced but i would change that role to a Central Midfielder in support, so the player can support the middle, the half space and the wing based on his atribbutes and the context of the play more than forcing him to stay wide with the hardcoded PI. With stay wider in Carrilero you will have 3 players wide in the left that searches for that space as i've seen that the IF(A) doesnt cut inside until the ball reaches him or you are planted in your opponent half. 

Most of the time when the striker fails is not because of the role, is because of his support, so ask yourself "Who's going to be my goalscorer?" "From which positions will he find the best chances?" "How can my team take the ball there so he has the right time and space to do his thing?" "How does his role plays around the ones that are around him? Is he getting into crowded spots or is he too disconnected from the rest of the team?

Those questions will help you undestand why your players are acting the way they are. 

And remember that your tactic is only as good as the players attributes and PPM.

 

Sorry if you don't understand something, English is not my main language. Cheers.

[attacking width and build up issues]

You can try the Inverted Winger with stay wide PI or dropping the Winger to the RM strata so he starts deeper before going into to the box. You have too many people supporting play and expecting passes to feet but no one making runs (This combined with dribble less and WBitB makes your team sterile when they have the ball). Also, much shorter passing already decreases the tempo so you're letting the opposition recover their shape. Those are some things i can think when seeing the tactic. Try to tone down some instructions and see if this helps your players getting the ball in better positions.

[Supporting an attacking Mezzala]

hace 3 horas, macca72 dijo:

Sure, here it is.  I've settled on CM(s) with "take more risks" at the moment, seems to be better.

 

I think the problem is you have a disbalanced system and too many instructions that are overkill. You have 4 attacking player in an already attacking mentality, and multiple instructions that just make it even more risky and contradictory with each other, and a system too easy to defend because you have the same roles in both wide areas. When you cm (s) finds the ball everyone just starts running, he doesn't have enough support.

I would first think what kind of style i want to really play, starting more simple and watch from that what does my team do.

I don't know your players but these are some of the problems i can spot seeing the tactic.

[Trequartista]

hace 1 minuto, Experienced Defender dijo:

I guess you are talking about the 4141dm wide tactic (given that you said "front 3")?

Yes, that was my main tactic before i started integrating the 4231. Now i'll get back to the 433 to see if i can find other solutions without changing all my system.

[Trequartista]

Thank you, it feels nice to disscuss things in this forum, i will now try to understand more things and getting back to my initial tactic with some of your explanations.

Will get back here after some matches to give you my experience.

[Trequartista]

hace 7 minutos, Experienced Defender dijo:

First off, instructions need to be in harmony with your setup of roles and duties. And the setup of roles and duties itself needs to be well-balanced and logical in relation to your desired style of play. A good tactic is one in which both the setup of roles and duties and instructions (including the mentality as a special instruction that affect all others) are conducive to the style of play you want to achieve.

The problem with your first (42dm31) tactic is that the setup of roles and duties is suitable for a counter-attacking football, but instructions - except direct passing and early crosses - actually aren't. Actually, the problem with your instructions is that they are neither possession nor counter-oriented. Instead, they are a contradictory mix of both styles.

The problem with your other (4141dm wide) tactic is basically the same + insufficient penetration. Switching the mezzala's duty from support to attack may help considerably in this particular respect, but there still remains the problem with the contradictory instructions as well as disharmony between them and roles/duties. 

I hope this will help you understand where exactly the problems lie. If not, feel free to ask me whatever questions you may have  

Depends on which exact type of "offensive" tactic I want to play - patient possession, progressive possession or fast attack? Which in turn depends on which of these would optimally suit my players.

If I knew your players - except for Haaland, whom you mentioned - I would tell you what style of football I personally would prefer for your team. 

Thanks, that makes things more clear to me. My initial tactic was more cohesive and had instructions for a progressive possesion but somewhere i deviated too much from that tinkering too much.

Will try some of these ideas with my initial plan and see what happens.

 

I have another question now, what i saw most of the times when trying to create a good possession style, was that my front 3 were too static and the midfield just passed between the lines too ocasionaly. How can i make them move more inside and outside of the area?

[Trequartista]

Okay this makes some things clearer, thanks for explaining the thought behind the instructions. Will try some of these and see what does my team do.

I have some questions though

hace 41 minutos, Kharza_FM dijo:

This was my last game I just played

Great map. i see that the number 8 (this is the CF(S) if i guess correctly) overlaps with  the ap,, but how well does he get into goalscoring position?

Do you use counter press to put more emphasis in controlling the ball? And the counter one? I weren't using for the sake of not having too much pressure instructions (A split block, positive and more extremely urgent so thought it was too much) And counter my team was forcing too much when they got the ball back.

 

[Trequartista]

hace 3 horas, Experienced Defender dijo:

I am generally opposed to changing the entire formation in order to adapt to the formation used by your opponent. Instead, I prefer to analyze my team and then - based on that analysis - I create a tactic I believe optimally suits my players in terms of their strengths and weaknesses, and it's my primary tactic. So I only need to make small occasional tweaks during a match (depending on what I observe watching it). 

My secondary (reserve) tactic may sometimes involve a different formation, but that formation must be analogous to the one I use in my primary tactic. But when I will use this reserve tactic has nothing to do with an opponent's formation. Rather, I use it only against considerably stronger opponents, regardless of their formation. And that reserve tactic is not overly different from the primary one (just a couple of roles/duties or/and instructions may be tweaked, but nothing more that).

But apart from that, the main problem with both your tactics is that neither of them has a clear tactical identity. In other words, it's hard to figure out what style of football you actually want to play.

That's the first thing you need to decide. Once you sort that out, everything else will be much easier, including the trequartista question.

P.S: whatever style of play you eventually opt for, make sure your players are capable of putting it into action (because each style of football requires a certain type of players).

Okay i understand that.

I was trying to create a vertical tactic that can hold the ball and create something when teams are defensive. Tried to play short passing + lower tempo + offensive mentality but my players where just too tame with the ball, no penetration or too slow and the striker was just non-existent without crosses or set pieces. With direct passing i found that they have good interplay sometimes but they most of the time make a cross to the Striker or the wide forward.

How would you play a offensive tactic without making it hoof ball? I have great creative, technical and fast players (And Haaland that is a monster of his own) and find that i can't take the best out of these characteristics.

Thought that if we build slow from the back, invite pressure and then strike them fast those instructions were the best, but i'm still trying to understand how some instructions translate from the game to the pitch.

[Trequartista]

hace 13 minutos, zyfon5 dijo:

try playing the trequartista in the striker slot and remove any playmaker role so that all the build up will go through him and he will still pop up in goalscoring positions. i have done this with barcelona playing a lopsided two striker system but it is really hard to replicate the goalscoring stats of real life messi. hope it helps

Doesn't the TQ want runners because he often drops deep and roams from position? How would you do this with him as a lone striker? 

[Trequartista]

Yeah, i think Messi can't be replicated in the game but Trequartista is the closest role to the way he plays, just the goalscoring part is really hard to make.

Updated with english screnshots.

[Trequartista]

Okay i understand the ambiguity of my questions i'm sorry. Just thought it would be a good topic for disscussion.

I know both my tactics aren't bad but i want to understand more of the role because i don't use him that often but i'm kind of intrigued to see what can happen.

I normally use this tactic against teams that use a central AM and no DM so he is a bit free, but i see him sometimes or too deep or too lost.

This one is more against 2 Strikers and teams without AM and with DMs

I play direct because was seeing my team too soft with the ball and with no penetration(Mostly because of the amount of support roles i think) But direct makes us better with the ball actually (That is one shout i don't understand very well, direct is more vertical but can it be short and vertical or does it just mean long?)

Well, hope this is more contextual and someone can tell me their thought about it.

Thanks for the kind response.

 

 

 

 

[Trequartista]

Bumping to see if anybody is interested, if not its okay.

[Trequartista]

Hey guys, i'm having a bit of trouble fully understanding the Trequartista role and have some questions about how to get the best of him.

If the TQ is central as an AM, how do you use the roles around him to create space? And what about his other positions (ST and AML/R)?

How can he adapt to different playstyles like a heavy attack, possesion, counter attack, or low block?

What are the most important attributes for him to affect the game in a more proactive way and why?

How to adapt his positions against formations that heavy mark him (Formations with a DM or with 5 at the back and a flat midfield)

Can you create a deep TQ with generic roles to make him start from deep and then get up to influence your attack?

 

This one is more of a fantasy of mine, but can you create a sort of Messi-like job using 2 players? (For example a TQ with his creative characteristics and on the ball movement and a Striker with his off the ball positioning and deadly finish)

 

If you have some experiences with him please share how did he made your team better and why.

Thank you all, haven't seen to many guides about him so wanted to spark some discussion.

 

[Dortmund - struggling]

I'm currently playing with Dortmund with a 433 (41221/4141) in my second season, i really think they have one of the best squads to play attacking football, too much talent and young quality, that can evolve into a scary machine if done right. I'm going to try to explain why did i chose every instruction and role (So maybe it can spark disscussion and ideas from everyone else and even help me adapt and make it better)

Currently my team plays like this:

I'm playing in Attacking because i want my team to have the ball, be vertical, get it up, press high and try things like dribbling, shooting, and risky passes. I have a creative team with an attack consisting in technical, talented and fast attackers, like Brandt, Sancho, Haaland, Reus, Sergio Gomez, and good subs in Hazard, Gotze (The only transfer i made from the original Dortmund team is buying Ajer to play centre back, Victor Campuzano as a backup Striker and Benjamin Henrichs to have a young versatile backup all over the pitch)

PFat

IWsu                                IWat

CMsu    MEZsu

DLPsu

FBat    CDde   BPDde    FBsu

SKsu

I have these roles and duties and want them to do certain tasks individually.

Sweeper Keeper: Simple, i have a high line so i want someone that can get to balls behind my defense and i want him to pass to them as we build up play from the back. No PIs

Fullback(Support): Right now i have Hakimi here, i want him to be a good option to recycle the ball, sometimes overlarp the IW, and make 3v3 or 3v2 wide with the Mezzala and the Inverted winger. Toyed a bit with Wingback Support but i think the Attacking mentality already makes him one. My sub here is Benjamin Henrichs and he does fine. His PIs are: Cross from the Byline and Get Further Forward. 

Fullback(Attack): I have Guerrero here most of the time because of his intelligence and ability on the ball (As opposed to Nico Schulz that is more fast and physical). I want him to overlap my IW like in the other side, but more agressively. I thought of playing him as a Wingback Support but was finding him to static without the ball so i've changed it to FBat to make him do more runs. His PIs are Cross from the Byline and Stay Wider.

Center Back: Hummels here is great, i want him to do simple things, get the ball and pass it to my BPD, FBat or my DLP. PIs: Pass it shorter to emphasize not hoofing the ball as we build up. He has some goals too from good corners and FKs.

Ball Playing Defender: Ajer plays spectacular here, he brings the ball up, he plays with my FB and my midfielders, and occassionaly plays the long ball into space to Haaland or Sancho. Other than that is similar to Hummels, PIs: Pass it shorter.

Deep-Liying Playmaker(Support): The heartbeat of my team, the most passes, the most touches, the most key passes. Axel Witsel is just perfect here, incredible mental attributes. He help us build up play, recycle possesion, and progress play. No PIs as i think he has the mental attributes to play his game at his best without my help. His backup is Delaney but i ussually chang his role to something more generic or not so demanding on the ball.

Mezzala(Support): Here i have Can (Who i bought for 50M after my first season because he was just too good). I want him to combine with Sancho and Hakimi, be a threat from distance, play some defense splitting pass and be the wide man in some occasions and sometimes just changing play to the other side after overloading the right(He has the PPM to switch play which is really great).  Here i tried BBM and CAR but found that he was running too much inside the box without offering support to my wide players or he was just too conservative. His backup is Dahoud who can make a pretty decent job when he plays. His PIs are: Take more risks.

Central Midfielder(Support): This is a tricky one, i played him as a MEZ(a) but my midfield was too split and far from each other, an CM(a) but he wasn't touching the ball enough and was just a body to occupy a defender or make runs, an AP(a/y) but he was a magnet and i don't like to play with more than 1 playmaker, as he wasn't offering nothing to me on the ball(No through balls, no switch play, no dribble, nothing) or off the ball(Wasn't receiving in tight spaces or in dangerous areas), i always felt like he was missing something (Still do sometimes). I want him to be a cross of an Number 8 and a Number 10 (Iniesta role) so i came up with the idea of a blank canvas that i can modify with PIs and my own players PPM. I play Brandt here when Reus is in the lineup (He is great as a needle player but i still can't seem to give him the conditions to make a important impact here) and Sergio Gomez when Brandt is wide. Both have excellent feet and technical ability. The diferences lie in brandt being more electric with his dribbling and gomez a composed passer. I think this is the most thinkered role i have and i'm still triying to make them more important to our play. Their PIs are: Take more risks, Dribble more, Close down More, Mark Tighter

Inverted Winger(Attack): Sancho here is very good, fast and a real nightmare to play against, he has the most dribble per 90 in my team. Without the ball i want him wide to make up space for Can to play his game and to create overloads in that area. With the ball hi has to choose the best option as i want him to cut inside to make a cross from to my striker(From the inside as i want to make them behind the opposition defense line), my overlapping fullback or to go wide, beat his man and whip something to the other IW or to my striker. I have him in attack to make him do runs sometimes when Can has the ball. His PIs are: Take more risks, Stay Wider and Close down More.

Inverted Winger (Support): To my surprise this is my second goalscorer even in support duty (I think because of the Reus and Brandt incredible off the ball movement and capacity to receive in dangerous areas, and because Sancho makes really good crosses to this area). He has to be wide to receive the switch from Can, the cross from Sancho or be a good passing option to my striker, my CM and my FB. Here Brandt plays different than Reus, because he receives, cuts inside, sometimes beating his man or playing a 1-2 with my CM, to get in the area. But Reus is more agressive with his movement and get more inside the box or waits for the overlap and the cutback from my Fullback. Their PIs are: Take More Risks, Get Further Forward, Stay Wider, Close down more.

Pressing Forward(Attack): Haaland is a cheat code basically, we can play like s**t and he is still going to find a 1v1 situation or a corner or even a throw in, he finds gold out of mud. 41 goals in 45 games last season, just too easy for him. Still triying to include him more in the game as i feel sometimes he is too isolated, but he makes up for it being always a problem to the opposition centerbacks, making runs, winning headers, pressing. he is just too good. No PÏs for my main man here but i think Roam from position can have him benefit of his incredible off the ball movement.

 

As a unit i want them to do other things to complement their individual style with my own one. My TI right now are: 

With the Ball:

Play out of the Defence: I have players confortable on the ball and don't need them to hoof the ball long, also, want to make the opposition press me to open up space in midfield or in attack for a quick transition.

Much Shorter Passing: I want to balance the attacking mentality and make my players combine more in tight areas ussually wide before searching for the free man on the other side or making a run

Lower Tempo: To complement the passing one, i have a lone striker in attack duty so i don't want to always rush things because that i was seeing that sometimes mi players just played it long or make an speculative pass an was bypassing the midfielders too much.

I had pass into space, but we were losing too much possesion (Was winning games but sometimes with 38%, and were reliying too much in Haaland runs behind the defense) so i changed it to individual instructions of my attacking players to be more risky, as opposed to have all my team play into space. 

I think you can use WBiB but i saw the team become too stale, letting the opposition adjust and just being impacient and shooting out of frustration when having the ball against packed defense(This happens sometimes against packed defenses even without the instruction but my team has good concentration so they ussually just exploit easy mistakes against these types of teams). The other instructions here are i think situational (Like play wider against a team with flat lines like a 442 or overlap right when i want to exploit that area with 2v1/3v2)

In transition

Here is hard because i change sometimes these instruction, as i think they are the core of football (Transitions wins and lose games), but you don't want to overflow you players with transition instructions, you should see how they play without them and decide if you want to use them situattionaly or having them as hard coded instructions.

Counter-Press: The most important one, i use almost always because i think the best time to attack is when you lose the ball because the opossition stops thinking about defensive structure and starts to prepare to attack you. And i like to have the ball most of the time if is possible. But i don't use it against heavy opponents, or in tricky away matchs(I'm talking to you Frankfurt) because it can leave you heavily exposed if they can beat the press. 

Counter: I think it's not necessary as i already have a pretty high mentality but i found that when we got the ball back my players were simply build the attack slowly(Because of my instructions on possesion) and not exploiting the gaps in the opposition so i thought giving a chance to the TI.

Sittuationaly i use the Distribute to the centerbacks + wingbacks when i want to attract the oposition press with a composed, controlled build up with 5/6 players to later attack fast with my free forward players. They often get 4v5 or 5v6 plays where they use their talent to win these "outnumbered" situations. (I think playing with only 5 players to defend the 4 beasts i have is almost suicidal because any of them can win their 1v1 and its just over)

Without the ball i try to don't tell them too much because i already make a split press with mi PIs and have support players everywhere on the pitch to help in these situations.

Higher defensive line: I do this because i want to win possession up and control the ball, this give the opportunity to be more compact but without overkilling it so my players don't have space to play.

I don't use higher line of engament because i think mentality, roles and PIs already do this and it would be a bit of overkill.

 

My weakness right now are teams that plays 532 like RB Leipzig (It doesn't matter the variation, i think they just have the "free man" in defense and midfield and kill me with crosses and long ball to the strikers, so if any have tips against this, its always welcomed). Usually if i win is because of individual quality of players or luck (That's part of football too, you're not going to win every game, and pummel every opposition with only tactics, the best team are the ones who have both individual brilliance and collective cohesion)

 

Well, i wish this helps you sparks some ideas, and remember that these are just my view on the game, nothing is written in stone and is just my way of understanding roles, duties, mentality, Pis and Tis and Football.

I'll aprecciate feedback and would love to read your thoughts on this. I'm an avid reader since almost 5 years but this is my first comment/post here i think.

Sorry if my english is hard to undestand, my first language is spanish so sometimes things get mixed for me.