WhyMe

Not seen anything of Gattuso as a manager so I can't contribute to the tactical design, but following with interest as I loved him as a player, used to sign him in FM all the time!

Trap outside will get your wide players to tuck in (similar to the old narrow defensive width setting). However, it won't be as narrow as if they were in the AMC positions, closest you can get as far as I know though

Always wanted to be able to replicate that behaviour from the days of Cafu and Roberto Carlos for Brazil, they would regularly cross for each other. Granted that was as full backs technically but the principle stands as they were in essence playing CWB-a from the fullback positions and for me that was what the role on attack duty should have represented. You are quite right though, while it does happen occasionally in FM it isn't consistent enough.

Just a few: DM-s hold position AP-s Roam from position Vol-A Move into channels The right wingback is on auto specifically because its the only wing back role that doesn't have gets further forward. I did occasionally add stays wider to him depending on opposition formation (i.e. if narrow formation with space to take advantage of on the flanks) but not all the time.

I got FM24 today and loaded up my FM23 save and gave the tactic a whirl to see if it still worked. I had to modify it slightly to take account of the positional play side of things (the AP was often an Engache and the AF usually a PF-a in the original, but I saw in Rashidi's post about positional play the Eng doesn't rotate positionally). Once I made these changes it was fine and created good chances and was defensively solid still. You will note that I do have the two transition instructions on, but I tended to turn CP off against top teams and Counter off against teams that were leaving no space to counter into (i.e. super defensive ones) if my possession was low and I wasn't creating chances. Anyway hope this helps.

I tend not to play narrow when using a formation that is already narrow unless facing a flat 4-4-2 which has gaping holes in the middle to exploit. I usually leave it as default or slightly wider if I see my players getting in each others way. However, I don't have FM24 yet and I suspect there is a lot of potential for positional transitions feature in the match engine in this formation. But not having tried it yet I'm reluctant to offer any advice as there would be a good chance it would be rubbish. Other instructions wise nothing looks crazy, you seem to be setting up to play progressive possession football with a medium press. The only thing I'd keep an eye on is the two transition instructions, counter press might not be very effective with a bottom heavy formation and only 3 players in the front line and no one to press the fullbacks (easy out ball to play round the press). It might be ok, particularly if you end up camping with your wingbacks high up the pitch, but against better opposition it could be a problem. Similarly with counter (though less so) you are playing possession football so against some opposition it might just end up with you losing the ball and not really helping. Most of the time it is probably a good thing, but might be worth keeping an eye on.

Have you tried the central mids in the DM position and a very narrow team width with focus through the middle? Roles wise I'd try wide play maker attack on one side and WM-A on the other (PI'd of course). The WM on the same side as your support striker and the WP behind an attack striker. I haven't got FM24 yet so this is just theory, but this would be my guess

I had a lot of success with a 3-4-2-1 in FM23 and based on that experience I would expect you to have a couple of problems firstly a lack of a goal threat/penetration if your striker gets marked out the game and secondly a lot of congestion in the middle of the park leading to either pointless possession that doesn't go anywhere until someone gets fed up and takes a pot shot or a low quality chance. There are lots of options to try and mitigate this if it happening but my two main suggestions would be drop the 2 CMs back into the DM strata, this would also allow you to swap the DLP up to support (or make him a DM-s with hold position and creative PIs). I would also increase the duty of the left wing back and right AMC to attack and the left WCB to support (in some games you may need to drop the DLP back to defend if you find the left flank a bit too attacking). Like I said there are lots of other ways you could improve penetration/goal threat but this would be my starting point

Generally you would expect the the CM on the non-overloading side to be on support. The striker would depend on the rest of your system, though I imagine both could work. Rashidi's bustthenet series has videos on how to set up an overload, you could always give them a google. One overload system that worked well for me in the past had a front 5 of: PF-a W-a AP-s CM-a CAR The idea here was to build up on the right flank and overload the left with a switch of play setting either the W-a, CM-a or PF free for either a shot on goal or cutback/cross to one of the other attack duty players on that side. If I recall correctly this system had play out of defence but mixed passing so once the ball got forward the players could be more direct to encourage the switch of play (possession numbers were high but not off the charts high). The W-a would hold the width to an extent until the final third when he became more of a goal threat, but the CM-a and him would rarely get in each others way, but close enough to each other to link up well. I am sure there are lots of other ways to set up an overload and this is just one example, but hopefully its enough to give you some ideas :-)

I'd be interested in your thoughts on getting a Raumdueter to work in a 4-2-3-1, I've always liked the idea of this role and usually have a pop at making one work in each FM, though rarely with any success (bar one notable exception a few FMs ago when I used an asymmetric formation to great success), though I haven't got round to it yet this year. In the past I have always assumed that a Raum would be the teams main goal scorer given the wide poacher description and that you would play it with the inverted foot (e.g. left flank right foot). However, reading some descriptions recently this might have been erroneous thinking and that the Raum is a little bit less a goalscorer than the IF and bit more a hybrid role (albeit a bit more towards goal scoring over assisting than say the Treq). I almost never play a 4-2-3-1 system either (4-3-3, 4-4-1-1 or 3 at the back for the most part). To that end I wondered about trying to kill 2 birds with one stone with a final FM23 save trying to get a Raum working in a 4-2-3-1 I was thinking an attack duty striker, but potentially one that will be at least a little mobile/creative such as CF-a or DLF-a) with a creative AM behind him (one with drop deep to get ball and excellent passing/vision etc.) and a regular winger support on the opposite flank to the Raum. The 2 main goal threats would be the striker and Raum with the AM and winger providing different types of ammunition (through balls and crosses). The full system could look something like CF-a Raum AM-s W-s DLP-s DM-s WB-s CB-d BPD-d FB-a SW-d I was thinking a possession system or fluid counter, but the challenge I have always had with the Raum is getting him to perform better than (or at least as well as) a W-a or IF-a. In this system you could swap some of the roles around potentially which could be more effective than the above options e.g. different striker options such AF-a or PF-a or AP-s or EG for the AM along with a variety of choices in the back six that could work. If you were trying to get the best out of a Raum what would you go for? There are other system options that might also work, for example an attempt to overload the Raum's flank by playing DLF-a Raum AM-s IW-s VOL-A DM-d FB-s CB-d BPD-d WB-a SW-d The idea here would be to build up play on the right flank and then switch play to the left at the appropriate moment to hit the onrushing Raum/Vol in space and again there are different options for striker that could do the same job (e.g. TQ-a with hold up ball, CF-s or potentially other support duty strikers, but the risk there would be the striker and AM trying to do the same job too much. Though an AP-s on the right flank could be an option as well as a DLP-d to try and encourage the overload and switch of play. Again lots of options and I'd be interested in your opinion on how to bring the best out of a Raum in this sort of system.

I would say your problem both in terms of lack of assists for your CM-s and shooting from distance is because you have no penetration either from deep or from wide areas. All he is left with is a hopeful ball over the top for the AF-a as the rest of the team are not making any forward runs (slight exception being the IF-s who has the default PI gets further forward, which helps but he is still on support so its not going to be the same as an attack duty). So basically the reason your CM-s isn't getting assists is because there is no one making runs to create for which is also leading to the long shots issue, they pass it around a bit and then get fed up of waiting for someone to make a run and have a pot shot. I would suggest you need at least 1 more attack duty, possibly 2. I would definitely turn the BBM into either a CM-a or a Mez-a to give you some threat from midfield (you may have to experiment with the role of the AML if he doesn't work with your selected attacking role in midfield). You could also consider changing the AMR into a IW-a or even IF-a to give you some additional goal threat from out wide, this would give your CM-s runners to hit on either side of him and the AF-a who might also have more joy if he isn't always so isolated up front.

personally I'd play Messi as a false 9 or TQ in the striker position like Argentina did in the world cup and then build the team around that. He doesn't really have the legs anymore to play in attacking midfield and might be a bit of a defensive problem in that position. He could work as either a lone deep lying creative striker with goal threats in the AM strata positions (IF-a/IW-a/RMD/SS/AM-a etc.) or in a strike partnership with an AF-a/PF-a next to him. I don't know anything about current Miami squad so can't really comment on formation but any could work with the right setup. If Miami have the players I would be tempted by a 4-4-1-1 as that should reduce the impact of Messi's lack of defensive contribution.

Your set up isn't far off what I used in a test save on the demo before I bought the game with arsenal. As it happens in that one I had Xhaka as a Mez-s on the left centre with Zinchenko behind him as IWB-s (Odegaard on the right centre as an AP-a though). I believe Martinelli played as an IF-a in that setup for me too, though he might have been IW-a. I didn't have any problems defensively as the DM-d covered the centre and as Johnny noted the IWB will cover the left. I did occasionally have to adjust if it wasn't working in a particular game but generally speaking it was perfectly viable. However, I would say that your right flank is pretty conservative and a double Mez might leave you a bit sparse in the centre of the pitch so that is something to consider.

For me it depends on who the opposition is managed by and what formation they are using., though this is a reflection of how I play the game in general. For example, in my 4-4-2 save my base formation is a 4-4-2 DM, but through experience I know that against a 4-2-3-1 my base system tends to suck so I switch to a 4-2-4 DM instead, which tends to do well in most games against the 4-2-3-1. I also have my base system with the right winger pushed up to AMR which also does very well against certain opposition managers. Most of my changes are not this extreme though, mostly its a couple of role changes or some different TI to take advantage of the space the opposition is vulnerable in. For example, against a flat 4-4-2 I switch my width to very narrow and my usual right winger-a becomes an inverted winger-a to get him to attack the space left by the opposition having no DMs and I will push the fullback behind him up to a WB-s (from FB-s) to get him a bit further up field in support to take advantage of the fact the opposition formation has no one at AML. I have several of these systems saved to make switching to them easy when I face the appropriate opposition, given they are mostly small changes the hit to tactical familiarity is minor. However I do have the different formations saved in the 3 tactical slots to help with this for the bigger changes. I am not great at watching the game and learning from what I see, I can see if we keep getting done from long balls over the top or if play is breaking down because we have not enough support in midfield or something similar but mostly the way I develop these modified systems is by watching the match stats for the first 15-20 minutes and if I am not doing well enough statistically (given expectations vs the opposition) then I will pause the game have a think about where the space is in the opposition formation and what role I could change to take advantage of it/overload it. Then I will make that change and see if things improve (both what I am seeing, but most importantly statistically, XG has been gold for me). If things improve to the extent I am happy then I will save the new system and use it whenever I face that specific manager. I will also test it against other managers using a similar formation and if it is consistently successful I will use it more generally against that formation. Last but not least I always have trouble against specific managers (mostly Klopp, though in this iteration of FM Koeman has also been a problem) . For this reason when I am planning a new tactic I will make sure I do a quick test save and test the new system against those managers to see if it works and if not what modifications do I need against that specific manager for it to be consistently decent. I recognise this is quite a fiddly system and relies to a large extent on experimentation and memory and there is always a fair bit of trial and error as I am no tactical genius. In the first season or two I will be on the wrong end of some bad results as I build up my evidence base, but I will also have some fantastic comebacks when the experimentation hits the sweet spot (best recently was 3-0 down in less than 20 minutes to winning 4-3 after changing 2 or 3 roles and a couple of TIs). Anyway, you don't necessarily have to go the whole hog with this as I am sure its not for everyone, but for a cup final you could try looking at the opposition formation and think about where they are leaving space (in-behind, on the flanks, in-front of their backline etc.) and see what you could tweak to take advantage of it. Then just pay attention to the stats in the first 15-20 minutes and decide to either stick or twist. Personally, I would also look at how your system does in general against their formation, the data hub does tell you about chances created against specific systems using your system, if against the opposition system yours is worse than average then you have extra incentive to try a tweak or two. I hope this helps and good luck with your next final!

bit late to this thread but I've had great success with both a reg and F9 in a 4-4-2 DM inspired by Crusadertsar's thread on F9 and poacher combo's (poacher being the other striker). My first choice Reg posts decent average ratings and chips in with the odd assist (6 in 32 in the league last year) despite being a youngster (19 at the end of the season). My first choice F9 got 14 goals in 25 games in the league, but was injured and my main back up who I play against weaker opposition got 11 in 18 (though that includes 10 sub appearances). I also have a 4-2-4 DM system which I start against most 4-2-3-1s which also features both a F9 and reg (for some reason my usual 4-4-2 DM does not perform against 4-2-3-1 systems but 4-2-4 does). We were top scorers (albeit only just) and had the meanest defence in the league last season) As regards your current system, I would suggest you don't carry sufficient goal threat and your defensive instructions are risky, albeit viable if you have enough pace in your defence. A winger-a does provide some goal threat from the AM strata and your striker also does, but both roles (CF-s and W-a) are a bit more balanced between creation and scoring, personally I would turn your BBM into a CM-a to add more threat from central positions to add to the hybrid threat from your right winger/striker. Another change you could also consider is the AML to either AP-s and the CF-s to CF-a (this would bring the AML more infield and he would have options to play in the striker/CM-a or switch the play for the winger to cross for your dual central threat. Alternatively, you could also keep the CF-s and turn the IW-s into IF-s which would also carry slightly more goal threat, whilst retaining a support role. Lastly you could make the AML a TQ, this would be a bit risky on defence with both the LB and AML on attack but it could be quite pokey offensively and provide some real creative threat to combine with you CM-a and W-A. Give some of these options a try and hopefully one will help, of course it depends on the players you have, some options may not be viable. Instructions wise you could consider raising the tempo slightly to normal to unsettle packed defences a bit more and also experiment with your width setting against different opposition formations. You also probably don't need the distribute to instructions when you already have play out of defence on, though that is a small point. As regards defence, you probably don't need a stopper with 2 DMs and it could occasionally pull him out of position when the DM should be dealing with it but if its working don't change it. Anyway hope this helps.

All the screen shots except the first look like they have 2 DMs and IWB will function as normal wingbacks if there is a DM on their side. If you are playing with the tactics from the second, third and fourth screen shots then that would be the reason the IWBs are not functioning

that is very interesting! Have you tested this with position training by any chance? How much do they need, is a couple of points enough for example?

yep, has been since I signed him about 6 months or so ago

Thank you, that is what I thought, seems to be a bit of a glitch in the role ratings system. It is a bit irritating that he keeps getting upset about being played in an unsuitable role that is actually very suitable, but while its not affecting performances I'll just have to ignore it.

Hi Crusadersar, Great thread, it gave me some inspiration for a new save and tactical challenge. I've always stayed away from any variety of 4-4-2/4-2-4 as I always struggled to make it work and this gave me the impetus to have another shot and its going much better this time! I did have one question though, have you noticed that the role suitability ratings appear to be bit odd for false 9s. For example I have this youngster who performs fantastically for me as a false 9 (13 goals in 17 games after I signed him in January). However, the game rates him as 3.5 stars for DLF, but only 1.5 stars for false 9, despite having marginally better attributes for a false 9 (most of them are similar). Is this a bug or is there a reason? Like I say its not effecting his performances, it just means he gets irritated with playing in a role that he doesn't suit, yet he clearly suits it at least as well as the DLF-s (at least as near as I can tell given the attributes both want). I'd appreciate any insight you can provide :-)

In my FM23 demo test save I used a 4-3-3 DM with my AMR as a winger on attack and regardless of who I played their they were very effective, mostly assists but also chipped in with a decent number of goals. This was regardless of which player I played there, Saka with his strong left foot or Nelson with his strong right foot, both were equally effective. So it can definitely work. What matters is ensuring the rest of the roles and duties work well together and if so then a winger either on support or attack can definitely work. However, where it can struggle significantly is if you try to play a winger role on both flanks in a 4-3-3 as you can end up being too one dimensional.

I will usually make one of my fullbacks more defensive (i.e. attack to support or support to defend), add some time wasting and sometimes put on be more disciplined. I will also occasionally drop my mentality a bit, usually only one notch, move one player back into a more defensive position (e.g. an AM to CM or DM) and if I am not already playing possession football and my team is good enough to do it switch to a keep ball style, but these are situational and I probably wouldn't do them all at once.

Hi thanks for the response TC, There is definitely more than one way to achieve the same thing in FM and there are always going to be compromises, but I'll try answer your questions/give my reasoning for why I went with the options I did: for White you often hear comments about how he is a bit narrower when the ball is in Arsenal's half but then will get wide and overlap Saka when the ball moves towards the final third, there isn't really a role that replicates this in FM and I didn't want to reduce Saka's mentality by using the overlap right TI which is probably the only way to get close to replicating this movement in FM. Therefore, the White PIs were to increase the likelihood of the final third movement (i.e. get wide and further forward) and compromised on the build-up positioning. In an ideal world I'd instruct him to stay narrower in our half and then wider in the opposition half, but this is sadly not an option. However, it is interesting that he is still effective without the stay wider, potentially more effective even, just not the movement in the final third I was trying to get. On Martinelli, I have occasionally added stay wider to him in a match situation if I feel he is not being effective, but by default I want him closer to goal than Saka as his strengths are definitely more with his movement and finishing than his creativity (at least with his in-game stats). IRL he tends to drift towards the middle quite often, both in the build-up to get into goal scoring positions to receive the ball. I completely agree that an IF-s role which has get further forward as a default instruction could definitely also work (though I'd be worried about a clash with the Mez-s) and may be a more accurate reflection of his real-life role, but in game I wanted to emphasise his goal threat, essentially a compromise to get this working in FM terms. Also agree on the take more risks hard coded instruction for IF-a over IF-s being a bit weird. Another alternative option could be adding both the stay wider AND roam from position to reflect that he does do a bit of both IRL and potentially would give him the freedom to decide which to do in game, this is actually probably closest to his IRL movement, might have to give this a try and see if it works in game. IWB-s is actually a role I really like, for me its main point is to provide that ball recycling option in midfield essentially forming a double pivot with Partey in much the same way Zinchenko does IRL. It isn't a role from which I expect hatfulls of goals or assists, it is more a stable platform from which to build attacks as a partner to Partey and it does chip in with some key passes and the odd assist. The downside of this in FM is that it isn't likely to lead to particularly high ratings, but is an important part of the build-up in how the team plays and definitely closest to the role Zinchenko plays IRL. Last but not least, the PF-s role for Jesus was selected originally because Jesus's impact on Arsenal's pressing game has been immense and I felt that the PF-s role would be the one that had the best chance of reflecting this in game whilst combining the roles tendency to drop deep in the build-up providing the foil for Martinelli, Saka and Odegaard that is very much his role for Arsenal. For me he definitely isn't an attack duty striker, though a CF-a and DLF-a aren't ridiculous. I do use him occasionally as a CF-s and could also reasonably make a case for False 9 as they reflect his involvement in the build-up very well too, but pressing wise the default for me was PF-s (TQ is definitely out because of the pressing). I know this is very much open to interpretation and I am not saying this is the only role that can replicate his IRL pressing/movement, but so far for me it does do a pretty good job. I am glad you found the tactic both interesting and useful and I would be interested in hearing how your tweaking turns outs and in particular against which teams/managers you found those tweaks improved performances. I do some in-game tweaking if things aren't going according to plan, mostly this is changing one or two roles or instructions, but I also usually end up developing a full plan B and C which are quite different for use against teams where for some reason the main tactic just flops regardless of small tweaks (Newcastle being the primary example of this for me this time around). The plan B and C are definitely not replications though and are more me just being pragmatic.

I am only playing the demo at the moment, but I thought I'd add this tactic to the discussion. Results wise it has been excellent for me, though I had to change to an alternative against Newcastle as for some reason their system just shut me down completely. I am only playing a tactic test game at the moment, but have been pleasantly surprised by results from this even when I played a second 11 in the Europa. The PIs are: roam from position for Jesus, stay wider on Odegaard and White and get further forward on White. The White role is tricky to replicate so this was a compromise for effectiveness. The main thing that doesn't quite replicate Arteta's play is the pressing in the opposition third in particular is nowhere near as aggressive as it is ILR, despite this the defence has actually been pretty solid (conceding 8 in 11 PL games with 5 clean sheets). The slightly weird thing is that Jesus has scored 13 times in 10 starts and 1 sub appearance and only 1 assist, despite being a PF-s the vast majority of the time (CF-s occasionally) and Saka and Odegaard have more assists than goals as a result of this, but both are playing well and making plenty of goal contributions so I'm not complaining. Martinelli hasn't been too productive so far (3 goals in 8 starts and 3 sub) but has spent time out injured. I would like to try Saka as IW-a with a stay wider PI, but this system has worked so well I didn't want to mess with it. If anyone has any thoughts on how to get the pressing more like Arteta's then that would be most welcome or any discussion points or potential improvements (either to improve the replication or the effectiveness)

I would suggest that you have no one trying to get beyond Kane consistently enough to get into scoring positions. For Spurs the player who does that most often IRL is Son, give him an attack duty and you will carry more threat, you might want to give Bentacur a hold position PI to reduce vulnerability down that side. I would suggest that you also need a threat from central so I would consider giving Bissouma either a get further forward PI or even an attack duty, you may need to drop Emerson royal's duty to support with the latter, but with 3 ATB and Bentacur holding you might be ok. Alternatively, you could make Kulusevki a Treq (if he has the attributes, can't remember). He would still be creative, but would carry a bit more of a goal threat as well. You could potentially combine this with dropping Royal to support and giving Bissouma a get further forward PI, but I haven't tried this sort of thing in FM23 yet so it would be a case of test it and find out what works best.