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Everything posted by dekzeh

  1. I managed to get a lot more of Trequartistas once I stopped looking at them as playmakers that don't track back but instead players given complete freedom. Freedom to move around and even outside his position, freedom to dribble more, to try through balls, to try long balls, switching plays, to take shots from any position they feel comfortable. More than any other role in the game player attributes and PPMs will dictate how they operate, since they're allowed to do everything with no overly specific instruction. Different players might turn out to do completely different things in this role, some may be very direct whenever they get the ball dribbling towards the goal, some will be very creative and dictate the play from upfront and create chances for others, some will be looking to finish every chance they get, etc. A great one will do a bit of everything at the correct time, As far as the pressing goes, in general they will still press if your system is set to do so and they have the attributes to do it, they just won't track back once the opponent breaks through the first line of press. But that's ok, because you want him in a good position once you recover the ball. Generally he should be someone who is above the rest of the team technically or mentally (ideally both), as he is a ball magnet and as such will be the focal point of most of your attacks. To get some real life examples outside the obvious ones most people will think about like Messi, Neymar or Hazard type of player, someone like Ibrahimovic would be a Trequartista in my mind. Even CR7 in some cases. A wild one maybe, but Thomas Müller's position in Flick's Bayern is closest emulated by the Treq in game.
  2. He never said he wants or intends to play Tiki Taka like Barcelona, he's complaining the defensive sides do that, by his comments I don't think he cares about having or not possession or anything resembling Tiki Taka, just wants to learn how to press the opposition so they don't spend the whole game passing around the back, which I agree with you is kinda worthless without him providing his system. More likely is he just wanted to rant though, which is just out of place here.
  3. I'm not sure midfield compactness is a term, I just meant to how further apart everyone is, especially in that left side, there's a lot of vulnerable space. This is kinda shown in both videos you posted where your LCB is completely alone to defend that area, the fact he then decides to go elsewhere and not even try to defend the space is not something I can explain however. I don't know your players at all, but the first things I would change for being more defensively solid would be lowering the LoE to standard. In addition to that I'd get a much less aggressive left flank, something like FB-Su, W-Su, CM-At, OR WB-Su, IF-At, CAR/BWM-Su. But again, I'm not sure what your players are suited to.
  4. This is really weird to me. The behavior of the LCB in those videos is absolutely nonsensical in terms of real life football. It's a mistake that can happen once or twice, but as often as OP suggests it's worrysome and doesn't look tactical, even if it is. I have used many times tactics that rely on two players being enough to provide defensive cover on counter attacks and never saw anything remotely similar, although my setups are wildly different from what OP has here, and I agree with the issues you have pointed out, especially with the midfield compactness. This all makes me think that it's just the game showing you there's something wrong in a very non intuitive way. Am I right in thinking that if OP had better compactness in midfield but still at one point got caught in a counter attack situation with only the two CBs back, they wouldn't behave like this? Like I said, the reason this strikes me as being so weird is that I have been counter attacked multiple times with only two players back, at all sorts of different levels, from world class teams to non-league levels, conceded some, defended others, doesn't matter, but never have I seen such stupid movement by a CB in a situation like this.
  5. CBs don't take part in counter-pressing so I don't think that's the issue. I noticed in both cases it's your LCB who goes way out of his position to pressure the guy on the opposite flank, if it happens often my guess it could be due to his stats (high aggression? low decisions?). If that's not it, I'm not sure what could be causing it.
  6. Whilst I see your point people are just way too fast to call things a bug, especially since with the info OP provided this is not a a repeating issue, but rather an one off thing, and as such it's hardly worth considering it a bug. I agree that players shouldn't do this, but players make mistakes and do things they shouldn't do all the time, they are not robots and won't do everything to perfection. A combination of the tactical setup and players making a wrong judgment decision on the pitch, this is all there is to see here. Of course, if OP goes on to see this happening a lot, it's a different thing, but conceding because the players made a stupid decisions or interpreted an instruction wrong is something that not only is not a bug but is also is a positive for the game.
  7. Whilst I agree the old system was way too prone to being abused and just poor and I don't agree with the way @sverige91 is going about it, it would make sense if we had more information visible in game. Right now we set up mentoring groups, and... wait? No way of knowing if it's working or not, if we did the right thing or not, if the game cares about players being from the same nationality, or speaking the same language, or being in the same training unit, or playing in similar positions, or being in the same social group, or a player being in another player's favoured personnel, or the little message that says 'Believe player X is a vital part of the team', or if an injuried player still influences his mentoring group, I could go on forever... In real life a manager would see on day to day training those little things and interactions and the players getting along or not, but in game we obviously can't see that. It's cool being up to the managers judgment, but if we have no info to go by other than guesswork, it's not ideal. It would be really good and not unrealistic if the game provided some sort of feedback, messages that said player X and Y aren't getting along well in the mentoring group, or that a player looks up to another. I'd even have negative effects like if a player feels pressured and doesn't think he'll ever be able to fit the mental requirements he sees on first team players and that drops some attributes. It's fine that it can take a month or a year or two to see changes in terms of attribute changes, I don't mind that, but I'd love more information to go by.
  8. Thought I'd try to roughly translate some of the interesting parts of this at least, as I don't expect many people here speak portuguese. It's hard because Gerson doesn't name the positions so I might even get some bits wrong (he says a lot of 'here' or 'there' referring to positions as if we could see where he was pointing or read his mind lol) Gerson is very adamant that Rivelino played in the midfield 3 though. He says Zagallo told Rivelino the following: "I don't want you in the wings, I have exceptional wingers, Paulo Cézar Caju, Edu.. I don't want you here, ok? I want you here (midfield, I assume), specially attacking the spaces at the edge of the area, so you can shoot. Because the left wing is occupied by Tostão, When Tostão is there, you attack the channels, when Tostão drifts inside, then yes, you can go past him on the left" He then says this movement on the left with Tostão and Rivelino was very important because Everaldo had no quality to attack, he didn't go forward and then the left flank was empty. He almost mocks Everaldo, he says something like: if Everaldo hit the halfway line, I told him to stop there and give me the ball. He says Everaldo himself said: "I'm not going up there, I'm not as good as anyone there". The funniest part of the interview though is when he says: "To me, a long through ball is an orgasm, I'd much rather give an assist than score a goal" Despite being brazilian I have never watched the games of the 70 team, so I'm not claiming to be an expert here, anything I'd say would be based on something someone else wrote or said. That said, based purely on the way Gerson sees the team I'd set up with Tostão on the left as an IF, not sure on duty, and then Rivelino as a Mez-At, with Everaldo as a WB-De. Pelé would then be a Trequartista (not sure if on the AM strata or as a striker). Not sure about what role Jairzinho would have on the right, as Gerson doesn't really talk about the right side, other than saying Carlos Alberto basically played as the winger there. Edit: to me the most interesting part of it all is how Zagallo set the team up as a 4-3-3, the players saw it as a 4-3-3, but the way they moved and interacted in the pitch made the whole world see it as a 4-2-4, as that is how every article I've seen about that squad puts the lineup.
  9. What I wanted to say was that their aggressive system didn't work simply because of the way Barça set up. It has worked against many different systems, and if you try to paint it as something that only happened due to poor choices by Barcelona it kinda discredits Flick's overall work. Also what do you mean by not being possible to replicate the match vs Barca? Cause in terms of results, it certainly is possible: Of course, those don't happen all the time, much like Bayern won't be demolishing teams by 6+ goals every time, but it can happen for sure.
  10. You're right, I forgot that the game vs Barça was the only game they played under Flick, not like they have won their last 18 games in a row and haven't lost a game in 2020, playing against all sorts of different teams and formations.
  11. I mean, if someone posted here about their 4231 with Bayern using Goretzka and Thiago as their double pivot with a very offensive fullback and two ball playing defenders (one with the permission to dribble forward even) AND running extremely urgent pressing + Get Stuck In, imagine what the comments would be like: "Needless aggressive out of possession instructions" "CMs aren't good enough defensively and playing too offensively minded roles for a 4231" "One of the fullbacks should be more contained". Yet we see Goretzka and Kimmich stepping into the box, Davies sometimes transitioning into a winger with Alaba stepping into LB, whilst Thiago drops back into his position alongside Boateng, forming the 2 in their 2-3-5 (god I wish we had better ways of emulating some of the fluid movements Bayern has). The point is, both what you see as 'totally balanced' or something 'completely unbalanced' can succeed OR fail, it depends on a lot of things. People have success with either way of playing, and there are lots of posts by people struggling with either way of playing, and that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the game.
  12. Don't know if I expressed myself poorly, but I didn't mean to say you can't get the CBs dribbling forward. What I meant to say that you can't get them forward to offer themselves as an option to recycle possession, without the ball. You can definitely have them dribbling forward almost as a fullback, that I agree with.
  13. Then it wouldn't be a Gasperini recreation anymore, would it? Cause he does the opposite of that, with the wide CBs sitting very wide and having permission to push forward, offering an option to recycle possession on the flanks when the wingbacks get forward. There's no way of doing that in FM, the closest you can do is BPD-St set to stay wider and Dribble More, but that still doesn't make them push forward when not dribbling, and even when defending the Stoppers don't push forward to mark someone before they receive the ball, only push to tackle once they do have it. The main thing on my wishlist for FM21 is a complete overhaul on CBs roles and possible instructions, we are just way too limited in what we can do with them unfortunately, and it's very outdated compared to what we have seen in real life in recent years.
  14. Fair enough, makes complete sense. I'm just a little burned out on the game at the moment for all the micromanagement bits, but sitting on the tactics creator whilst attempting to create something with restrictions was interesting to me, just wanted to see more or less how it'd play out and holidaying was the easiest (laziest) way of doing that. If I give a proper go at it I'll report back
  15. Saw there's a lot of interest in this and having played with a system that's somewhat close to that in the past, I thought I could give it a go. While I don't have the energy for a new save at this point in the game's cycle I thought I could holiday a season. Hope that it counts, and if not, at least it'll give people some ideas. System I came up with: The UI doesn't show that I'm running a narrower attacking width, because on attacking that setting goes to standard. PIs to Shoot Less Often on the 5 midfielders to reduce wasteful long range shooting that would come with the mentality, as WBIB would make little sense with the rest of the system that is based on quick transitions. The wingers and the Segundo Volante have 'Get Further Forward' and the DM is told to Hold Position. The team I chose for this was Lazio. They had most of the players needed for this system to flourish IMO, only lacking in a few areas. I didn't do a lot of research as they might as well be other teams much more suited, I just wanted to play with Lazio for a while and it was a solid enough pick. No transfers, holiday'd straight from day one. I set a few players to specific positions because I was scared the AI would play them in unfitting positions (Correa at LM, SMS as a Treq, Luis Alberto upfront or in the wings), none of the CBs were particularly good as a libero so I didn't bother to set them up either, the one reason I wanted a Libero was to have someone a little bit ahead of the defensive line when we lost possession, hopefully intercepting long balls ahead of the defense, and not sweeping behind like the role description wants it to. So I set this up and holiday'd: End of season wrap-up: 4 points behind Juve isn't awful, we lost both games vs them and that cost the title. Team was predicted 4th and the board only wanted to qualify for EL, so overall this seems good. Unfortunate early pairing vs Napoli in the Coppa Italia and another early exit in the EL vs Leipzig (who went on to win the whole thing), but a Supercup win over Juve (3-2 after ET, quite the game) The prefered starting XI by my assistant and their ratings and contributions: The fact that Lulic played most of the games at LM is really annoying. Right footed and old with quickly declining physicals, you can see how poor his contribution was compared to Lazzari on the other side. In hindsight I should've seen this coming and set Jonny or Jordan Lukaku for that role. With human management and some signings (and probably even with none) this would've been an easy league win in my opinion. Also the 50 goals scored by Immobile look nice but keep in mind 13 of those were penalties. Still, very happy with the return from the front three and the wingers, with the Lulic situation in mind. SMS was disappointing, worth exploring the idea of an attack duty there. The Ai is so bad at squad management and picking players I'm mad enough rn I might redo this actually playing the game
  16. Oh, I absolutely agree. My comment is just on 'what to do if you want to win', I by no means am happy that the game is this way. The 4-1-4-1 really is not a good fit for top clubs, which is just ridiculous.
  17. Just a few thoughts, when you're at the very top the AI is happy to defend with the whole team and play for a draw, even completely giving up on the option of counter attacking, at most they'll have one player upfront. You don't ever really need 3 players defending, the DM is almost useless. Two world class CBs, which you probably have, are enough to deal with the defending duties, and the extra body forwards helps. If you insist on the 433, get a DM that is more active in the final third, a DLP-Su is a good shout or if you feel you can be super aggressive even a Regista. I prefer a 4-2-3-1 because the extra body upfront helps with the pressing, and stops them passing between the CBs for the whole game. This only really becomes an issue if you face a 4-4-2 or a 3-5-2 where both strikers are on Attack duty, so pay attention for that. Second: be good at set pieces. Like really good. As sad as this is, this is by far the most effective way of breaking down teams. If you get an early corner goal or indirect free kick goal they'll crumble and the game should be a walk in the park, So get tall, strong, aggressive players. This also helps with defending, as this is the only way those teams can ever be threatening to you. This will avoid a lot of the 'oh no I got 30 shots and my opp gets one set piece goal to win 1-0' moments people complain about a lot.
  18. The HB doesn't drop to the CB line when out of possession like you seem to want it to. It does that in possession during the build-up. That said, it will provide some cover to stopper CBs, but not any more than other DM roles on Defend duty (except BWM).
  19. Be careful with that, a wider defensive width makes the gap between the defenders bigger, giving space for pacy strikers to exploit on through balls. A wider defensive width is useful when you have more bodies in the middle of the pitch than the opposition, as you funnel them into the space you have the advantage. It works well with formations with 2 DMs or with 3ATB systems (and narrow systems in general, but specially 3ATB)
  20. I think there's a degree of unrealistic expectations here. A defense splitting through ball is not something that's very common or easy to do, especially against a defense that's sitting very deep. and it is certainly not seen as much as something simple like dribbling, crossing or tackling. Sometimes I do believe there's a bit of a reluctance of players to play the more vertical passes into space, but I feel that is also a product of the 2D view making me spot those passes much easier than it would be for a player on the pitch. Also, are you sure the player is not attempting those passes and the game just won't show it to you? I find that even on comprehensive highlights the game won't show intercepted or overhit through balls, instead it prefers to show a whole lot of pointless and stupid offsides. If you go to the analysis screen on your player in question you can see more clearly if he's really not attempting it, for example, my AM: In this screen you can also click on the pass to see the highlight. The two deeper ones are free kicks so I'll ignore that, but the other three were attempted through balls that just got intercepted. The one on the right the striker stopped his run right before the pass was made making it easy for the defender to pick up, the two central ones closest to the box would've put my winger one on one if not intercepted by the defender. The game didn't show me any of those highlights despite being on comprehensive highlights.
  21. Does being injuried influence mentoring? Let's say one of my most influential players gets a long term injury, am I better off switching the players he was mentoring into a different group until he gets back on training?
  22. Why wouldn't the AP work? I'm of the opinion any role can work if there's support for it to do what it's supposed to do. No role is good or bad in isolation, although of course some roles require less or more effort. The only PI I set is Roam From Position. It's tricky to give the avr. rating of my IFs as I rotate through 3 formations a lot, and I make a point to have complete and versatile players, only my strikers you can only isolate the avr rating as an IF, all the games Maglie has played on the left were as an IF, on the right sometimes a winger sometimes IF. Prados is the disappointment of the season, I had huge hopes for this guy but he has only really performed to my expectations as a striker in the 3-5-2. On the left he was played as a winger mostly, and on the right as an IF Nicolas is the main striker, played only as an IF when not playing upfront The other players who play those positions all play equally as winger/IF and also other positions: Furlan played about equally as an IF/Winger, rarely as the n10 and sometimes as Winger but deeper in a 3-5-2 Niang as a LB/LW(winger or IF just the same)/AM Same for Titov, but he actually has a single game as an IF on the right and can't play AM
  23. Not a fan of Roam From Position in those players since I want them to be running into space, not moving around find freed space to receive the ball into the feet, it's a good instruction for keeping possession but not for direct attacks. Shoot Less is a standard instruction I run on any forward player when using Attacking or Very Attacking mentality, sometimes on Positive too, as I've just had better success on using it on the whole team than running 'Work Ball Into the Box' to achieve a similar effect. I think the key issue to me was getting my wide players to attack the channels, running in between the fullback and the CB, and that comes down to a combination of team width and player width. I'm a fan of playing Narrow or Fairly Narrow with Wingers or IF-S set to stay wider. Alternatively playing Wider or even standard with the IF-Su set to Sit Narrower. Right now I'm experimenting Very Attacking mentality, getting amazing attacking flow but still not ideal, as sometimes due to the mentality the player rush a little more than I want, but still, here's what I'm running atm. The RPM with a Very Attacking mentality and a lot of runners ahead of him pulls some insane passing and links very well to the AP. In this example I'm running Standard width on Very Attacking mentality, which is naturally wider, but with the IF's set to Sit Narrower
  24. I personally wouldn't use those two together as the double pivot in a 4-2-3-1. Peeters is complete but not particularly great defensively, amazing as a CM in a 433 but not so much in a 4231, especially with both fullbacks bombing forward, and whilst Stepanyuk has better defensive attributes he also has the 'Gets Into Opposition Box' PPM which would annoy the hell out of me. I think those two would work a lot better on a 433 or if you are set on the 4231 I'd run Peeters as the AM and have someone more defensively oriented playing CM-De/Carrilero alongside Stepanyuk as a DLP-Su.
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