daveb653

September 26, 2021

Sorry, going to necro this post

I've been using a 4411 version that is pretty much identical to this. Plays some nice football, but I've only used it a couple of games and although I comfortably won I still conceded a sloppy goal or 2, how would you set-up a 4-1-4-1 version of this?

Ideally I want to grab a couple goals using 4411/442 then drop off into a 4141 knowing the opposition is going to come at me so will leave gapsi can either exploit or just keep hold of the ball to stop them attacking. I'm thinking to keep the wide midfielders as is WP(A) and IW(S) same for the dlp, but i'm guessing id have to go more attacking with my other midfielder (or use a regista in dm?).

Would you change any of your TI's or mentality, for something like this?

I feel like this is where I'm particularly poor at FM, just subtle changes to change slight playstyle (eg keep possession better or soak pressure then hit on the counter).

September 8, 2021

Hi Cleon,

Glad your back posting

The thing I seem to struggle with is how to find balance and stability within a tactic, with also identifying why tactics are inconsistent or unbalanced and how to fix it.

Also, as someone else mentioned, how do you tweak a tactic for different opposition without breaking it. So I guess what would be sensible tweaks for playing teams better than you or teams of lesser ability, especially the latter I never get this right and end up dominating possession without threatening to much and getting done by a single long-shot or simple ball over the top.

June 27, 2021

20 hours ago, Wayne Flemming said:

Hi, thanks for the thread. I am too interested in developing a good 442.

I think what you might discover is that against teams that sit back, your two attackers will lack support from midfield, as they wont have time to come up to support quickly enough. Its how I often end up, two players charging together against a well organised defence of 8 players etc.

Solution for this I dont know, various options.

* change the AF/Poacher to a link player like Treq.

* Use TIs to go even more possesion oriented, with slower buildup.

* give attacking duties to Volante, one WM and potentially even WB.

Or a combination of avobe. In turn such tweaks come with new cons so its not super obvious.

Against teams that attack you, the DLP is a question mark for me. Would in such matches probably change to defensive midfielder or similar. He probably wont be able to control the game anyway.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers

Yeah I noticed a couple of things pretty early on:

1) I needed a little more going forwards, maybe up a notch to positive mentality?

2)The 2 DM was really struggling in the match, no space and no depth. Defenders were constantly making long hopeful balls upto the forwards.

3) the FB(D) was really hindering me going forwards, it was good for possession but not much else to be honest.

4) I think I was trying to do to much, so a quick re-think, defend in 4411 (442) and attack in a 2-3-5.

14 hours ago, glengarry224 said:

On your left flank, you are ultra conservative and will have no width in attack. Unless your players are terrible, you could change the DL to WB(d)? Could the LM be W(s)?

This was to help in the 3-1-6 build up, though I feel I'm giving alot of width and attacking output up.

Straight off the bat in my first trial against inferior opposition I struggled going forwards as I expected, I decided pretty quickly the 2 dms wasn't working. So I decided to go back to 2 "normal" mids. One being a CM(D) who will be my sitter/ball-winner/recycler. Overall I really like this role in game and almost always have one, but I'm unsure who to have as his partner. Have left the role as a CM(S) for now, will tweak as and when.

The other major flaw was my lack of penetration down my left flank, so will adjust to WB(S) to see how that goes

My right flank was ok, though I tried a DW (i've never used one before) It performed ok along with a wb(S) though they tended to operate in the same areas so I've gone for a more aggressive WB(A). Though to be honest I haven't really noticed much difference between a normal winger and a DW. To try and notice in game I've switched the LM to winger on support ( to much the DW mentality) to see If I noticed anything vastly different.

June 26, 2021

Hi all,

I'm having trouble balancing a 442 the way I'd like. I've read a good few posts on here and have some good ideas I would like to implement. 442 isn't known for possession football so my main aim is to be relatively aggressive going forwards (not just impotent possession, possession with intent) whilst retaining good defensively solidity without sacrificing attacking potency, a fine balance. Controlled aggression you could say.

So I would like to defend in a solid 442 (4411 is also acceptable, for reasons I will mention later).

In attack Id like to try and attack in a 3-1-6 that moves into a 2-3-5 or 3-2-5 when we consolidate. There was a great thread on here about using either a fb(d) or a cm(d) to get the 3 -1-6 shape (apologies to the creator, I cant find it to tag).

However using a CM(d) I cant get a flat 4 in midfield. SO........ I think the best option would be a FB(D) with sit narrower to get the 3 atb.

For the CM I'm really struggling. Whenever I try to get a 4 midfield I struggle to analyse it as there doesn't seem to be much shape or cover when we attack. I read ideally I need both on support to provide the flat 4, but I found both ventured to far forward.

My initial attempt was DLP(s) and BWM(s) but with hold position, however they still ventured quite far up the pitch and left a hole to be exploited. I also found I seemed to lack passing depth with alot of high risk, low % passes being attempted.

So would 2 CDM be the key? it would make my 4 slightly staggered but would provide passing depth and cover. As an aside it would also let me use SV which I love but haven't managed to get working in FM21. The downside being that potentially the "hole" would just shift to between my fwds and mid.

My thinking behind the roles here, the DLP(d) would sit and protect and recycle the ball as my "1" in the 3-1-6, whilst the SV would provide some ground coverage (along with a support striker) in the mid strata. First questions in my mind: 1) will a dlp(s) work as Ive already dropped him to Dm strata? 2) will an SV provide enough support?

My 2 wide players are going to be WM both on support initially with some PI's to change their behaviour into a bit more winger like and a little more play maker like (I guess a little Giggs/Beckham-esque) with the idea of one provider (who will also give depth in the front "5") the other being more of a goal threat.

As for strikers, one article suggested both on support to give the 442 defensive shape, but I found I gave up alot of offensive output by doing this, hence earlier I said a 4411 defensive shape would be acceptable.

I REALLY want to try and get a poacher to work in FM21, it seems no one uses one (probably for good reason) but the way I see it is as the quintessential goal scorer, all he wants to do is put the ball in the net, I imagine Lineker would be a example of a poacher?

Failing that AF is my back-up role for that so my Attack duty is sorted. For the "support" striker Im a little stuck as I have to strike a fine balance between helping the SV "fill the mid gap" whilst providing help upfront to my goalscorer, Im thinking a dlf or CF on support and seeing how they do there.

Overall my tactic with some basic TI's looks something like this

The idea behind TI's is simple (in my head at least) Higher DL and standard LOE to compress the "hole" as much as possible, whislt the quick tempo is to keep the ball moving quickly to create chances through off the ball movements and create killer passes and through balls.

To conclude my shape should be 4411 in defensive situations, whilst i envisage this kind of shape during build ups in possession:

Then once we are camped Id like to see a 2-3-5 of sorts, something along the lines of:

It took me quite a while to write this so I hope it makes sense with regards to what I want to acheive, please feel free to pick apart any issues there may be, but please also say WHY you'd make these changes. I'm writing this to try and learn and improve

February 19, 2021

On 17/02/2021 at 08:17, OrientTillIDie said:

A system that I’ve got working quite well is a narrow 4-1-3-2. The setup looks like this:

TMs PFa

BBM APs BBM

Ad

WBa CDd CDd WBa

GKd

Mentality: Positive when at home, Cautious when away from home or against a bigger team. That alters a couple of my TIs as well.

TIs: Shorter passing (sometimes much shorter), play out of defence, Take Short Kicks, Distribute to centre backs and full backs, Counter, Force Opposition Inside, More urgent closing down, Get Stuck In (when playing away or against a bigger team), Lower Line of Engagement (when playing away or against a bigger team).

I don’t have many Player Instructions on. I’ll often use Shoot Less Often to stop players taking absurd long shots.

I also have experimented with Mezzalas and Carrileros either side of the Advanced Playmaker depending on what kind of full backs I have. So if I have an obviously attacking full back on one side and then one who isn’t as adept at attacking on the other then I’ll use a Mezzala on Support on the side with the weaker attacking full back and then a Carrilero on the side with the attacking full back. I’ll change the duties of the full backs accordingly (Wing Back Support or Full Back Attack for the less attacking full back and keep it on Wing Back Attack for the attacking one).

I’m sure there will be people who are tactics experts who say that the formation doesn’t make sense and isn’t balanced and shouldn’t work. But honestly, it’s so effective. I’ve tried different saves with different tactics but this is the system I always come back to. It works a treat. And with the shorter passing game, the Target Man isn’t used to lump it forward to unless absolutely desperate. Also, lots of crosses happen. And I get goals from all three central midfielders, as well as the wing backs.

Do you not find your FBs get overloaded and out numbered though with a narrow formation?

On 16/02/2021 at 17:22, prched55 said:

I play with a 442 with an attacking CM.

CFs--AF

WPs--CMd--CMa--WMs

WBs--CDd--CDc--IWBd

Positive Mentality

Counter, Distribute to center backs

Higher LOE, Higher DL, Prevent Short GK Distribution

Left side CD told to stay wider

CMa told to move into channels and take more risks

Helps if your WP has comes deep to get ball

Defend in a 442, build up in a 3-1-6

You can switch the IWB to support or attack duty if you want to play riskier

It helps if you have a really good team to do this but I'm sure my dropping the LOE and going to balanced mentality with more direct passing you could play with a mid-table to lower team.

Likewise, do you not get countered straight through the middle with the CM(a) getting caught out of position? With a 442 especially I found I had to use 2 relatively cautious midfielders (as in didnt venture too far forward) Or i'd get countered alot or not hold possesion well enough.

As I said the formation isn't an issue its more the playstyle.

February 16, 2021

Thanks so far,

14 hours ago, wixxi said:

Even with 3atb I would still rather have the BWM on defend (or even change to a CM-D) just so he screens the backline a bit better

Yeah I thought that, the support was mainly if I used a libero, forgot to mention that bit :lol:

1 hour ago, lfds89 said:

Cautious mentality, I think.

I was thinking, if anything to go the otherway, so my WBs affected play further forwards.

February 15, 2021

After some tactic advice. I like creating my own tactics, but I kinda suck at the execution. I can normally get a tactic working, but not how I want to play (if that makes sense?) SO...... I'm after some help/advice. I'm wanting to play a 2 striker system (thats my only request formation wise) with one provider, the other my main goal scorer.

I'm also looking for a goalscoring midfielder to be my secondary goal threat (think Lampard or to some extent Scholes type player).

Currently I'm thinking a 5-3-2 (or whatever its called now) may be best as a 4-4-2 with an attack minded CM would leave me vulnerable on the break? I also dont want possession for the sake of it, so not tiki-taka. Just defend solidly, win the ball in a mid-high block and hit teams on transition. If that doesn't happen THEN we keep the ball.

So assuming I get my other roles and duties etc correct does a Poacher/Treq make sense?

Initial thoughts (assuming we do go 5-3-2) would be BBM/BWM(S)/MEZ(A) - my thinking behind this is with 3 CDS I should be fairly solid so can allow my BWM to do his thing further up the pitch? The MEZ would be my goalscoring mid?

The balance of the 3 CBS is a bit of a new one on me, current thoughts are 2 outer CDs on defend duty, with either a BPD pn cover to give depth, or a libero (though Ive not used one before)?

WB's would both start on support to see how we got on.

This is very much on its infancy, I've started a new save so can somewhat mould my squad a little and develop it over time, but any suggestions are always welcome.

Other formations considered did include a 442 diamond, but my last attempt failed, miserably.

February 15, 2021

17 hours ago, engamohd said:

Mind sharing what you did try?

I haven't as yet. I carried on with my 4411 that's similar to yours. I find when I try cautious my players tend to keep putting the ball into touch, so I'm guessing my roles and duties aren't right.

My original thought was an SV(a) and a dlp(d) as my 2 cdms but I find the SV(a) to be a little to gung-ho (though admittedly I haven't tried on cautious).

I'm also debating starting a thread to help identify the playstyle i want :lol:

February 14, 2021

How would you set this up with a 4-2(dm)-3-1, specifically with an SV as one of the DMS?

January 13, 2021

Quick question regarding youth development, Do you tend to train younger players in a generic "playing position" or do you focus them early on? For example I have a young 17 year old in my squad who is natural in AM, but he has all the attributes for a F9. So I want to play him there when the time is right, if i leave it on default playing position it trains him in AM(s). Should I start focusing his training early or let his attributes develop naturally for a couple of seasons by training in AM, then focus him on the F9 role?

I assume if I focus him early his attributes for the role will get higher quicker but his other attributes will suffer accordingly?

December 31, 2020

43 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Based on what you described and assuming the 42DM31 remains the formation of choice (involving a volante), I would start with something like this:

AF/PFat

IFsu APat IWsu

DLPsu VOLsu

WBsu CDde CD/BPDde WBsu

SKde

Positive - PoD, shorter passing, higher tempo, slightly narrower width - counter - higher DL, standard LOE, split block

I cannot guarantee if your striker will be the main scorer though. Both because it depends on a number of different factors and because I personally have never cared about who will score most of my goals as long as the tactic works fine as a whole.

P.S: The tactic proposed above is by no means a ~~plug'n'play~~.

Thanks @Experienced Defender The formation doesn't necessarily need a Volante, I just like the role and what it offers . Again formation isn't even set in stone, I'm open to suggestions for anything at this point as I'm trying understand it all better.

Ok, so looking at the tactic and trying to understand your choice of roles/duties, these are how i see it so please correct me if I'm wrong

1) WB both on support to provide width without being to gung-ho? As both wide AMs cut in.

2) dlp(s) to provide possession recycling whilst sitting deeper still

3) IF(s) to provide another attacking threat other than the striker?

Why the choice of AP in the AM slot?

December 31, 2020

10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

As I supposed, the instructions you use don't really go hand in hand with roles and duties. Because this setup is not meant for a direct style. If you want to play more directly, then you need a different setup of roles and duties.

Plus, I suggested the winger role in AMR, not IF.

If you want a tactic to work, then all its elements need to be in harmony.

@Experienced Defender I thought i was getting a grasp of it all, but obviously not :lol:

What I'm aiming for is:

A nice fast decisive transition that punishes players out of position or not switched on. failing that then i want to be able to keep possession (not just for the sake of it though) whilst always looking for that decisive pass or overload/overlap to create an opportunity.

Out of possession I don want gegen press, I'd rather have my players drop into a hard to break down shape (not necessarily a deep block though) but when the ball crosses my LOE I aggressively press and hit them hard to win it back decisevly.

The formation doesn't matter too much, although ideally i want a striker to be my main goal scorer (thats what hes paid for after all :lol: ) Along with a CM goal scorer, don't know why but I've always had an obsession with a good goal scoring midfielder (hence my use of SV, though the RPM got into he box regularly as well)

My initial thoughts were:

Play on a balanced mentality, that way my players can choose the right pass etc without being told, use dynamic runners (SV, SS) to actively look for counter opportunites and to force passing options/overloads, by drawing the opposition away (or getting space if no opposition tracked them).

Try to have a midfield in the hole between the def and mid to recycle possession and provide cover for counters.

Any help would to acheive this would be very much appreciated.

I'm back at the drawing board as Bayern thumped me 5-0 so obviously there are gaping holes in the tactics I set up. I'm going to start a new save (still with ManUtd) with one settled tactic and blend my players and club around it.

I've looked at the cautious and positive mentalities and both seem suitable for the type of football I want. I guess I could use a couple more aggressive roles in a cautious system to prevent "stale" possession, and more support in a positive mentality to prevent silly turnovers?

December 30, 2020

On 29/12/2020 at 16:00, Experienced Defender said:

If you use a DLP defend instead of RPM, then I would change the LWB's duty into attack.

Plus, I don't know what your team instructions are, so please post a screenshot of the tactic.

My latest tactic is here, but I think the SV , SS and CF all get in each others way quite a bit. In matches the SV darts forwards whilst the SS is still sitting deeper to get the ball, then the SS sets off on his forward movement and the CF kind of gets in his way. Main concern is SV/SS interaction though.

On a slight sidenote, in the DM position I'm struggling to see any difference in the RPM and Regista from the in-game example, I assume the regista just stays a bit deeper on the attacking phase whilst the RPM has no problems getting into and around the penalty area?

Currently I'm thinking either swap the SV to a straight up DM or HB, alternatively swap the SS for Treq and see how that goes.

December 29, 2020

10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Something like this maybe:

CFsu

IWsu SS Wsu

RPM VOLat

WBsu CDde BPDde FBsu

The prevalence of support duties is there to compensate for the absence of a holding role in the midfield (since neither RPM nor volante holds position). In other words, a high number of support duties is aimed at having as many players involved in transitions and helping each other as possible. The fact that the system employs 2 DMs also helps to mitigate this potential defensive vulnerability that would otherwise be more of an issue.

Thanks @Experienced Defender the one I made was very similar, the forward was a dlf(s) ad the rpm was a DLP(d). How many games do you leave before you change things, I only played 1 match yesterday but I noticed my SV, SS and DLF all take up very similar positions in attacking phases, so leaves my dlp with not many free passing options and alot of very short 1-2's that get no where other than a backward pass. Of course I'll give this version a go first, see if the same issues occur.

I don't want to change to many things at once, but I was also caught out once or twice with my SV way up the pitch and really struggling to get back, so i'm thinking his role may be the best to change?

If I go rpm with him I don't want the dlp there to, does a HB operate normally in a double pivot or would I be better just going for a straight up DM?

Also as a side note my wingers still tracked back as much as I wanted so I think it was just an assumption on my part that they wouldn't :rolleyes:

December 28, 2020

9 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

So you would like to use a RPM, volante and SS within the same setup? If so, why don't you try a 42DM31? That's a formation that can employ all the 3

Yeah the more I thought about it, he more it makes sense. I said in a earlier post here, the only reason for the flat 4 was the interaction between my wide players and fullbacks, but I guess i can replicate that with a 4231 with good roles and instructions

How would you get the RPM and SV in though? If you don't mind could you give me an example?

I've made an experimental one with a standard line as i want a mid block tactic. But I went for a dm and sv combo.

December 28, 2020

@ozilthegunner Yeah I've kind of realised that and seriously considering starting a fresh and going 4-2-3-1, I just like the 4411 for the compactness of the wide midfielders compared to the fullbacks.

December 28, 2020

@Experienced Defender Sorry, the S was SS shadow striker. Yeah, I know the volante is dm, its a favourite of FM20, I always try and get a favourite into a formation so just wondered if it could be a possibility of dropping one back

December 28, 2020

@Experienced Defender Makes sense, thanks very much.

One more question or request I guess, could you work one of RPM, S or SV into the 4411?

There currently my favorite roles and I'd like to incorporate one in if it was possible, I just really like the way they play in game Especially RPM, thats my newest favourite lmao

December 28, 2020

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, let's first go with the 4141:

F9

IWat DLPsu MEZat WMsu

HB

WBsu CDde BPDde (I)WBsu

SKde

- Positive

- PoD, shorter passing, run at defence, overlap left, underlap right

- distribute quickly (instructions such as counter or/and counter-press can occasionally be used as tweaks, depending on the situation or opposition)

- higher D-line, higher LOE, offside trap

NOTE: I took into account the team you manage and its reputation as well as the type of players you have at your disposal with their strengths and weaknesses. The idea is to move both the ball and players synchronously toward the final third, so that the lone striker would enjoy as much support as possible once the attacking action is there, but not in an overly slow and patient fashion, because this Utd team is not ideally suited for such a style of play.

Now the 4411 version (one possible example):

CFat

AMsu

IWsu CMde DLPsu WMat

FBat CDde BPDde WBsu

SKde

Here a couple of instructions would be slightly different - no ~~overlap~~ and ~~underlap~~ & standard LOE instead of ~~higher~~ with a split block involving the striker, AMC and both wide midfielders.

@Experienced Defender Thanks very much for the examples, mind if i ask a couple of questions about role choice?

The IWB on the fist one, if i'm imagining it right they take up a narrow position in the DM stata then on a support duty will still overlap the wm? If you used him on a defend duty he sits in the DM position and is alot more cautious above going forward?

I'm intrigued for the WM and dlp roles, why the choice of those? I it a specific reason or team based?

Initially I chose a dlp but the players I was playing there (Bruno and DVBD) had traits to get forward more and arrive late in the box, so changed to an RPM as that didnt have the hold position instruction but still states that they track back and cover defensively

December 27, 2020

2 hours ago, frukox said:

What was your system like against the City?

@frukox That exact one from the OP. No changes until half time.

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Using the same formation (flat 4141) or a different one?

@Experienced Defender Either, 4411 was my original tactic and was exactly the same TI wise the only roles that changed were the midfield triangle, Right FB was a FB(s) and striker.

I tried a few combinations but the midfield always seemed a bit dis-jointed and disconnected if that makes sense?

December 27, 2020

@frukox Yeah thats true, i was just a little surprised by it. I just played city and got beat 2-1, lost the first half 2-0 and got pinned back, so 2nd half i went attacking mentality and played much better winning the half 1-0, limiting citys chances considerably, which suprised me as i though id give up more chances due to me being more gung-ho in my approach.

@Experienced Defender how would you balance out the above tactic?

I basically have 3-4 roles I really like in FM and always try ro incorporate them into a tactic/formation. the roles are SV, SS and now RPM with a poacher as an option (not sure how i see a poacher is how the game see's one though, im thinking simple passing (one-twos, lay offs etc), running onto through passes staying fairly central and being the main source of goals for the team?

SO originally i went 4411 with a deeper cdm as an SV and an offset SS, but really struggled with balance, so i switched the SV to an RPM which somewhat helped but still seemed vulnerable to a pass between my lines even with a cm on defend duty.

December 27, 2020

One thing I have noticed is that my 4141 plays alot better on an attacking mentality, is this due to it being bottom heavy and using an attacking mentality "frees " the players up?

One thing I always struggle with is balance within a tactic, so i've used https://www.guidetofm.com/tactics/role-combinations/ To help me get some balance, this is why some of my roles are the way they are.

December 27, 2020

8 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I am struggling to understand your choice of formation, to begin with. I mean, you are managing a top team. Even if the tactic itself was "perfectly" designed - which it's far from - the mere choice of a bottom-heavy system doesn't really make sense IMHO.

If the idea is to play counter-attacking football taking advantage of the great pace up front, a system with a highly isolated lone striker means opposition defenses should relatively easily deal with him most of the time. Instead, a 442 or 4411 would make a lot more sense for such style of play.

@Experienced Defender I just really struggled to get the balance of a 4411 right, that's the only reason i dropped to 4141. I struggled to get anyone to "hold position" so to speak when we were in the final third, so i struggled to retain posession and recycle the ball.

@frukox I originally had it with a CM(A) but was worried with both my cm's having roam id leave myself open to the counter. Your suggestions are sound, quick question, why the FB(A)?

December 26, 2020

Yeah, maybe its one I'll give a go. Thanks

December 26, 2020

No pogba, his concentration is too low :lol:

@Hilly1979 I did consider a PF(s) but when we win the ball back we transition pretty quickly and I want the attack duty forward so the opposition defenders always have to think about something. Also He is an out ball as we sit fairly deep so the option is on for a ball over the top to take advantage of greenwood and Martials pace.

@ralala This was my thinking of switching, the AF may not be as laser focused on scoring so may offer channel running etc, the PF would close down the CD's more, where as the Poacher is just looking to put the ball in the net.

I just played Huddersfield so not the best gauge but Greenwood got MOTM, scoring twice and getting a freekick assist.

He does occasionally look isolated but the wide players support pretty well and the RPM and CM do a pretty good job of keeping up with play.

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Posts posted by daveb653