[Is this a replica of Klopp's Liverpool??]

I love the 3 striker setup. I have a current setup which is similar that goes like: 

AF DLF(s) AF
CAR CAR
HB
WB(s) BPD BPD WB(s)
SK(s)

With WBs in WB strata.

For Liverpool maybe one of the Cars should be a B2B and the right back should be a CWB(a)

Your TIs seem pretty on point for Klopp's Liverpool's style of play

[Non Mollare Mai - Relentless Total Football]

@OJAny update since then? Have been using your tactic and its working quite well. But I do struggle do break down teams sometimes and def dont see myself hitting 100+ goals like you mentioned. But the defending, passing and moves in general are amazing. You had mentioned a new strikerless variation without the false nine. Would love to know if you're using an even more evolved version now.   

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

Good going guys. After my initial struggles, I've picked up some ideas from you both, @Impacto @04texag

FM20 ME is just very pro gegenpressing and set pieces and the wide and direct play in general. Like impacto mentioned if i just ditch a well-thought possession tactic i've been playing all season and suddenly play a 4231/433 standard gegenpress template ill win most of the games. Its that skewed. Ozils tactic was amazing till 18 and almost impossible to pull off consistently in 20 now. I'm still gonna try it again with the edits you guys have given above. Else, hopefully FM 21 saves the day with a more balanced ME

[Possession football with high CCC and goals? Figuring out a diamond tactic]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

You insist on playing possession-heavy football, but at the same time you use 2 BPDs and have the keeper as a SK on attack duty, neither of which is possession-friendly even if your team instructions are very much possession-oriented (actually to the extent of tactical overkill). 

Extreme one-dimensionality of your setup of roles and duties is another potential problem IMHO. 

okay. Fair enough. What would you suggest?

[Possession football with high CCC and goals? Figuring out a diamond tactic]

5 minutes ago, Flußkrebs said:

First: you have play for set pieces on- but you're complaining that you are only scoring set pieces? Turn it off if you don't want lots of set pieces!  

Honestly? It's definitely not impossible to play high possession/slow football with a diamond tactic and get lots of nice CCC style goals but I've always had more success playing quite fast, vertical, counterattacking football when using a diamond. For example I'd be more inclined to use an AF and maybe a PF(a/s) or T(a) and then use a supporting player behind them to link up the play. 

The other thing I'd point out when playing a narrow formation (and the Diamond is probably the narrowest of the lot imo) in FM (and IRL) is that your two fullbacks/wingbacks are going to be the primary source of assists in this tactic. I've played diamonds where both fullbacks have got 20/25+ assists a season. Crossing is still strong in FM and because of the natural congestion through the centre of the park the primary outlet will always be a ball to the flank. Personally I'd embrace this natural aspect of the play and turn my midfield into a workmanlike defensive unit which wins the ball and recycles it to the flanks for a speedy attack. 

People might disagree but here's what I'd change about your tactic (whilst keeping the theme of heavy possession). I'll start with TIs as the problems jump out to me more.

I'm not convinced Much Higher DL and LoE is necessary for this tactic but I'd test it out and see how many balls over the top goals you're conceding. 

I'm also not necessarily sold on focus through the middle- this operates mainly as a mentality booster so check your midfield players' individual mentalities and see how it looks. 

I've already commented about how I personally prefer to use Counter with the 442 diamond but as it wouldn't fit your style I won't push that point. The main worry I have about Regroup in this tactic is that the 442 diamond is just not a particularly good shape for defending in. I get that when you have the ball you can't concede, but trying to defend in the Diamond shape as you have it leaves you exposed down the flanks.

Some possible changes which would make this better in my opinion:

1) Switch to an aggressive pressing/counterpressing system whereby when you lose the ball you immediately try and win it back before being exposed down the flanks, then you settle back into a patient possession system.

2) Defend wider. I think this is a +++ for 442 diamond systems. (Whilst on the topic of width, I think you can take off attack narrower. The system already is naturally very narrow, why would you want to tell them to attack even more narrowly?)

3) Switch at least one if not both of the CMs to Carrilero. They will get very bang average ratings but the overall solidity of the system will improve.

And finally for TIs- I'd just leave disciplined/expressive. If you wanted a Total Football style of play (which is complicated to implement and I'm not convinced this would fit the bill) then you could in theory make all the roles even more generic (e.g. DM(d), AM(a)) and add be more expressive but I would leave it off for now.

If having the WBs in the WB position is working for you then feel free to keep it. The alternative of course would be to change them to something like WB(a) or CWB(s), but if they work well then I;d leave them. With those PIs you've given them that seems to be 80% of a CWB(s) anyway right? I  like the Halfback as well. 

I'm not convinced that two BPDs is necessary. BPD will be much more likely to launch long balls out to the Wingbacks or over the top to the strikers. If you want this style of play (more counterattacking) then keep both of them in, otherwise switch one to a CD(D).

It's the midfield which I'm really not convinced by. I think CM(s) would be ok as roles in this tactic. But not with roam from position and get further forward. Combined with your TI of focus play through the middle isn't this effectively like having two BBMs? Seems like you're kind of vacating the centre of the park. Your holding midfielder is a Half Back, so he's going to be dropping between the centre backs, turning and looking for passing options, but all the other players ahead of him are runners of some sort (with those TIs on the CMs at least). 

There is only one attack duty player in your tactic, a shadow striker. I have never used two CF(s) with a shadow striker behind them, but I could see it sort of working. But in this tactic? The shadow striker is a direct runner, I'm not convinced that is suitable for a slow patient build up tactic. 

Here is how I would set up this tactic then, all things considered. I've tried to make the fewest changes to it as possible. As @sporadicsmiles said above, I would personalIy set this up with a three man midfield (I struggle with consistency out of an AM(c)) and/or make it more direct and counterattacking, but below should keep the style of play whilst also 1) increading defensive solidity in the middle of the park and increasing penetration/interplay down the flanks. I also don't know your players so it could be flipped down the middle if needed.

      CF(a) CF(s)

           AM(s)

      Car(s) Car(s)

WB(s)  HB(d) CWB(s)

     BPD(d)   CD(d)

Positive Mentality

Shorter Passing, Lower Tempo, Play out of Defence, WBIB

Hold Shape and regroup (now that I'm thinking about this I'm not convinced these are both necessary, but if they are working then leave them)

Defend Wider, (M)HLE, (M)HLD

 

      

Thanks a lot for you really detailed reply. Im going to try out some of the things you said.
I actually had CD(d) paired with BPD(d) but when i moved WB to WB position i felt the need to carry the ball a bit to reach them would be important so switched both to BPD.

Your point of both CMs being runners is valid. I thought that would be a way to change the sterile possession and offer more runners in attack. But maybe doesnt make as much sense. Wil try Carrileros. Its a role I rarely use but logically makes sense for a diamond I guess. 
Putting AM as AM(s) and one CF on attack makes lot of sense. Its something I tried as well and will do so again. 

Your width instructions are interesting. Will try them for sure. Thats something im not confident of and will try what you said.

Im pretty sold on WB (s)

Not very sold on positive mentality. Again the game becomes a little gung-ho for my liking. Will try most of the other things for sure. Thanks a lot

[Possession football with high CCC and goals? Figuring out a diamond tactic]

1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

One thing that jumps out to me from what you said and your tactic is that you do not have a good link between defence and attack here. I can see the nice unit for keeping the ball, but it is entirely unclear how you plan to transition that into the attack. There is nobody breaking forward from midfield and nobody really dropping deep from attack to provide the link up play. I imagine you see most of your possession in your own half or around the half way line. Which makes what I call sterile possession. Where you keep the ball purely for the sake of defending.

What you need to work out is how you want to link this possession unit with your attacking unit. One way would be to use a more attacking wing back on one side. He will potentially allow you to bridge the gap, but it would likely be ineffectual alone. What you really need to do is to decide how you want to transition to attack. Do you want to slowly pass the ball into the net? Do you want to be like peak Barcelona, where they would have long spells of sterile possession punctuated by incredible attacking directness? Once you have figured that out if should be come clearer what you should be doing with players (or people on the forum can put forward ideas of how to achieve that to help). 

In my view, I would be looking to do two things here. One is to get the AMC dropping deeper into the midfield to link up play. The other would be to get one of the midfielders moving forward past the AMC (perhaps out to a flank, perhaps centrally, depends on the opposition). That way I keep the same number of players to play possession football and build up, but I have a player running from midfield, and a player dropping back from attack to get involved who will then look to get forward. I may even throw in an attacking WB on the opposite side to the more advanced midfielder to try to create a more dynamic attacking threat. You may want to come up with your own ideas based on what you want to see rather than what I enjoy, but hopefully it gives you an idea of what thought process I have. 

Kind of agree with you. Its those attacking patterns that I feel im lacking and as you said majority of my possession is in the middle third between my back 5 and CMs. 

I had the CMs as mezzalas initially so that they run ahead and support attack as you mentioned. And they are currently also on CM+get forward+Roam from position. Isnt that enough to support attack?
AMC dropping deeper means you would recommend a AM(s) or AP(s) role? combined with mezzalas maybe? And what would the 2 strikers function as?

Im ideally looking at lot of interchanges in the middle where they form triangles of passing and pass their way through the middle to create a neat one on one chance and literally pass the ball into the net. Im not very keen on putting WBs on attack because "cross more often" gets activated and then they lose a lot of the ball by bombarding crosses endlessly. Thats why have kept them as support but added all the other attacking PIs like get further forward and dribble more so that they attack and spread play but dont cross too much

[Possession football with high CCC and goals? Figuring out a diamond tactic]

Hi guys,
So I've been playing FM20 regularly and by now as many in this forum have mentioned the ME traits are clear to me. I've won a lot going gegenpress and playing expansive in general. But the one thing close to my heart is a possession/total football style which I've successfully used in previous FMs. 20's ME is really frustrating in that regard and in the past few months I've been on a mission to champion a heavy possession tactic that can also create and score enough. The balance seems really tough to obtain and I think I might need help from the amazing people around here.

I start building my tactic with 3 requirements:
1. Possession: I want an average possession of 60%+. 58-68% is my target range depending on opposition. 
2. No wingers: I really dislike 4 wide players in a tactic. Usually stick to just one wide player per flank and want to overload the centre with players and focus play there. As you can guess this usually leads to me picking a WB who can cover a flank. In some cases I have also opted for a back 3 with RM/LM, but in this post, it's a back 4 with WBs
3. High CCC: I want this system to create a lot. Keeping the ball for the sake of it isn't the aim. I'm largely looking for moves through the centre of the park where most of my players operate. Fashioning beautiful moves that penetrate defences through short passing in those areas is the aim. 

I have gone with a diamond. Picked BMG since they seem to have good mids and no real wingers. 

The current iteration of the tactic is:



Player roles:
I'm pretty sold on the back 5. I initially started with WBs in FB position but they never went as high as I would like. Shifting them to WB position has helped me keep better possession and spread play. The DM also started off as a DLP but once the WBs went ahead, a halfback who sat closer to the CBs made sense. The WBs have go wider, stay wider, dribble more, cross from byline instructions. They always stretch play and keep dribbling until they reach the byline instead of crossing early and usually attempt smart cutbacks once they reach the byline. The movement of these 5 is pretty satisfactory for now.

The CMs also started out as mezzalas since I felt i might need additional width/support in wide areas for the WBs but this was causing the formation to become unstable. I have now shifted them to CMs with get forward and roam from position instructions. They are able to roam and support WBs as a passing option now. The movement of these is fairly satisfactory for me. Can do with advice to improve if any. 

The front 3 is where the problem lies. I'm really frustrated with their movement. I've tried CF, F9, PF for the strikers and AM,SS,AP for the AM in different combinations. Nothing seems to work. They dont receive the ball much and dont do much in the rare occasions they receive it. They are never in good positions for the cross/cutback from the WB and are unable to be involved in moves through the centre either. Need major help here. 

Team Instructions:
I feel balanced mentality is the only way to keep good possession in this ME. Positive or higher just makes the team go into gung-ho mode. Shorter passing, lower tempo, much higher DL and LOE, Low crosses, Work ball into box, focus though middle are obvious. Im pretty much sold on these.

Hold shape and Regroup seem to work really well to retain possession for me. Same for medium pressing. My CFs and WBs are on press more PI. The idea was to retain shape and only make them press so that I can force teams to play centrally and my central players can pick up the second balls. I dont concede too many CCC so I think this might be okay. Can do with advice to improve if any. 

Width is something im unsure of. Narrow while attacking and normal while defending is what i'm going with but i'm not sure on this. I switch it to wide when there's a very narrow opposition to spread play and create gaps. Be more disciplined/expressive is also something im unsure of. I find myself starting games with neither and clicking one based on if im chasing or losing. Can do with help here.

That's more or less where im stuck at.

Here's the last game I played:

Seems like a good game but this was actually frustrating. My 4 goals were 2 corner headers, 1 FK header, and 1 penalty. All set pieces. We didn't create a single good move after having all that possession. That 1 CCC is the penalty. The back 5 and the 2 CMs kept rotating the ball, the front 3 never got involved and there wasn't a single good play through the middle. We got by because it was a poor team. The same gameplay against a good team usually ends with 60% possession with 0 CCC for me and i lose or draw 1-0 or 1-1. 
The only other pattern (if you can call it that) I've noticed is when the WB cuts back to the CM waiting at the edge of the area and they score a bullet long ranger. That happens once in 4-5 games. The front 3 are never involved. 
Its almost like the ME is telling me I can only score via a set piece or a random long ranger and not via good passing moves. Frustrating. 

There you have it. Really need some advice on how to create more CCC and get the front 3 involved. Any advice on better suited roles, TIs or PIs are also appreciated. Thanks in advance!

 

 

[Non Mollare Mai - Relentless Total Football]

@OJ I had read your post many times and bookmarked it. After struggling to perfect total football tactics like @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s famous Ajax 3-4-3 tactic which gave me great returns in older FMs, I decided to turn to your post for a heavy possession based tactic where my team didnt give away the ball cheaply + didnt concede easy counters/long ball goals + scored beautiful team move goals. I decided to take Lille, which might not be a top team which this tactic might be better suited too but they have many technical players and some wonderkids to build on and I thought they could be a good starting point for a save where I focus on super-possession football inspired by your post.

So far in the friendlies im seeing amazing stuff. Its exactly like you mention. Ultra-possession but with a cutting edge and without giving away counters. Some of the moves are breathtaking to watch and I feel a sense of justice. So far so good and im hoping the number of chances and goals will increase as my players get more familiar. 

I'm pretty much sold on most of the TI's, PI,s and player roles. I just have one doubt. The F9 role. As you yourself mentioned FM20 doesn't give a good account of the role. In earlier games it was super effective and I've seen great play in @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s 3-4-3 with a false nine at the helm. My suggestion was a tweak I did to the 3-4-3 which seemed to work better. Changing that role to a Complete Forward (Support). It gave me better results there. Do you think using this role at the head of your tactic would also be beneficial?

[How to boss a possession/tiki-taka tactic in FM20 which heavily favours gegenpressing]

Hi Guys! So far in FM20, my biggest issue has been that the ME favours gegenpressing or pressing based tactics. I've myself found great success with them and seen many newbies easily set up a 4231/433 gegenpress template and do very well. So far my attempts at playing a brand of possession football haven't been very good. I find that if I attack too much, those random long balls over the top or pressing steal and run moves give the AI chances against me consistently and If im too cautious the chances created are less and considering how many misses the strikers make, it just doesn't result in enough goals for my team. Finding a balance has been really hard for me. I want to start a new save with 3 pre-requisites:

1. Need to manage a mid-table technical team that can play this style of football and become a world beater in 2 seasons. Lazio, Lyon, Monaco, Lille, Nice, Fiorentina, Wolfsburg, Milan, Villareal, Valencia come to mind. Don't want bigger teams than these or EPL teams since the finances make it too easy. Which team would be most suitable?
2. I don't want to play RAM/LAM in my tactic and preferably not RM/LM either. My distaste for wingers in the game has grown considerably. And most possession tactics I see like Guardiola's 433 use them extensively. Want to create a tactic without wingers. Is that possible?
3. As explained, I want to really boss possession without conceding stupidly or looking toothless. I'm thinking something like 60-70% possession each game with 3-5 clear cut chances. What would be the TI's, mentality and principles of play?

Would anyone be kind enough to give me some ideas on each of the 3 points or direct me towards threads, guides or posts that could? 

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

Just to close my loop, I got my ass handed to me in the draft game. Lost 4-0. Played 3-5-1-1 with the latest settings and it was terrible. They played 3 strikers (3 ST position) and completely opened up the defence repeatedly.
In general im getting the sense that 3 ST is still quite OP in the game. I thought they negated that effect in previous games where it was clearly a hack. But still seems powerful. Especially in drafts. I might switch to a 433 myself for drafts. 

In my save I'm still trying the 3511, but again im seeing it get beat too often by good teams so im considering a different tactic for away games and bigger teams. Away games being tough in FM20 is also a big issue. Its not as easy as it used to be. Might keep the 3511 for easy home games to pick  apart small teams with good football. 
 

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

Fluidity is just a label now denoting how many support duties you have. So more support duties will mean higher fluidity. So unless you need that for your tactic, don't bother what it says as long as your tactic works as you wish.

Aah. makes sense. I rarely bother anyway. but nice to know the underlying logic FM uses

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!Oh and another funny thing is that now FM20 attributes your tactics as 'structure/flexible/fluid' based on how you set them and its really irritating to see FM denote this tactic's Team fluidity as 'structured'. If i increase the mentality to 'Attacking' (Second highest after 'Overload') it shows 'Flexible'. I've tried changing around the TIs but it doesnt show 'Fluid' ever. Its really confusing that FM doesnt think this is a fluid tactic when it clearly is. After all the effort you've put it in to make it the most amazing fluid tactic I've seen, its blasphemous lol

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! So glad you replied and that too so quickly! Thanks!

So as you can see above my team has Grimaldo and Cancelo as the wide men since I took your advice of playing Offensive wingbacks as wingers to make it balanced. They work a treat at the RM/LM positions. Could they still work as RM/LM winger attack in your FM18 iteration? Coz i dont think they can play in the LAM/RAM roles. The other players should be okay with these roles. 

Also what would the TI/PI be? I have largely followed your TIs from the initial post and they worked well till recently. Only for 20 I have gone through your later comments and made some changes like adding 'play through the middle', making CF to F9, making Standard to Control/Positive and adding CMs to go forward + Run channels. That's where my latest tactic stands. 

I have noticed that the tactic does well against lone strikers and even double strikers. It totally decimates weaker teams. The issue I see is when a top quality team plays possession/attacking/gegenpressing football with quality players in LAM + ST+ RAM or 3 STs combinations. The wider attackers create havoc in the spaces between winger and side CBs and break them open allowing the central striker or a running midfielder some space to attack or a through ball to find its way. 

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!! I've followed this 3-5-1-1 Ajax thread for ages now and implemented it in many teams since FM16. It's been my all-time favourite tactic and I see it working well in most teams. It was mind blowing in 16 and 17 and even decent in 18 and 19. Now as we've come to FM20, I find it a little tougher to implement. I see beautiful football against smaller teams but struggle against bigger ones esp away from home. I'm using the tactic in a draft tournament with mixed success so far. What tactical tweaks and adjustments would you recommend for pulling off the 3-5-1-1 in FM20? 

This is the team I'm using in the draft:



P.S. Thanks a lot for your contributions in the forum so far. Been a joy reading and putting them to practice

[FM20 Fantasy draft budget increase?]

Hi guys! Need one urgent help! I saw there's an FM19 file to increase budgets for Fantasy Draft. 
I dont see any similar file for FM 20. Is there one?
Or does anyone know how to do it and maybe I can do it myself. I have gone through panels.fmf in resource archiver but I'm not able to find the file which mentions the budget. Maybe I'm missing something. 
I am organizing a tournament and need an increased budget badly to fit everyone's teams. 
Please help.
 

[Fantasy Draft Tweaks]

Hi there I saw your FM19 file to increase budgets for Fantasy Draft. Is there a similar file for FM 20 you have? Or can you teach me how to do it and I will do it myself. I am organizing a tournament and need an increased budget badly. please help.
Thank you.