JimmyGuitarist
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Posts posted by JimmyGuitarist
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On my Schalke save which I've taken a break from, I can achieve a big amount of possession/passes per game which I didn't think was possible with how this years match engine works. But my main issue remains, I don't like the passing choices, especially in decisive moments. It's possession football but not the kind of possession football I want, nor instructing in my TI's/PI's. It's really stupid how many balls are played to fullbacks/wingbacks, I've tried all kinds of things to stop it but they just seem like a magnet for central players to pass to. So many potential combinations through the middle are stopped because of these incessant passes to fullbacks.
And as you can see, another big problem we have is scoring more than 1 goal but that's another thing I blame these passes out to fullbacks on since so many opportunities to combine through the middle go wasted. Most attacks will end with my fullback kicking the ball into an opponent to get a corner which I really don't want.
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There have been some Bug Reports which complain that wingers narrow too soon in the final third.
Here's an example of that. Both these wingers are WM-A duties with a "Stay Wider" PI.
This is what I'd expect from the PI's I'm using:
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Could just be because they have space whereas the more central players do not.
I'm watching 90% of games and I get annoyed because I'm seeing loads of space to play centrally but players keep turning to wide players as if they're the only option.
“The principle idea of Positional Play is that players pass the ball to each other in close spaces to be able to pass to a wide open man.”
– Juan Manuel Lillo
This quote is essentially what I'm after, my team don't seem to want to play in close spaces even if you (I) do everything within the ME to get anything remotely close to it. They just seem to kick it wide regardless of whether they're in space or not anyway. Not many seem to be having the same issue though so I must just be bloody clueless.
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How come you haven't used any recent examples for Barca?
Barring isolated occasions of course, Enrique's Barca always have width. The Camp Nou has one of the best camera views to see how they line up.
It doesn't still focus passing out wide (as Play Narrower no longer focuses passing through the middle), it just affects your in-possession width. There have been some Bug Reports which complain that wingers narrow too soon in the final third, but in those images maybe only the second is in that sort of area, and Robben isn't exactly hugging the touchline.Well that surprises me because my players constantly try to play throughballs out to wide players & just generally play too many passes wide. I second that bug with wide players going too narrow during play near the final third, I could look for some pictures of both Pep's Bayern and Barca always have width during play in the final third.
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This is because you aren't really set up for a possession game yourself despite thinking you are. This is very clear because you decided to go really wide in your play, which doesn't help with a possession game.
All your issues are your own fault as the TI's you use don't match the style you're trying to create.
I gave you some advice above and you disagreed with me which is fine, but you was wrong because you was comparing a real life team who played wide and dominated possession with the game and expecting same results. I also believe in real life not many teams play wide and dominate possession, it's just not logical. The key to possession is movement, space and passing options. This means lots of roaming and wandering about. The further the width the harder this is because it requires more accuracy, you have less passing options and movement is more limited. I'd be interested in seeing these teams who play wide in real life though and dominate possession.Just going back to this Cleon, a few pictures of the 2 most possession-based teams in real life playing wide:
When I said teams in real life play wide, I obviously didn't mean tiki taka between fullback & winger. I mean the actual formation in-possession is wide. One player on each wing to always be wide to essentially act as a decoy to open up the inside corridors for central players - one of the most important aspects of Guardiola's positional play.
I obviously assume you know this already, When I was using the "Wide" instruction I thought it had been updated for FM 16 that it did exactly what I wanted, I didn't know it still meant that it focused passing out wide at every opportunity.
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Well I'm sure you've misunderstood me. I'm not moaning at anyone, I keep putting up the same old thing as I've been applying advice and seeing no improvements in my annoyances - which are mainly just constant throughballs to offside positioned fullbacks/wingers and bad movement in midfield using the roles I want to use. On FM 15, the movement I got from CM-S duty players was almost as good as I could hope for.
I appreciate any advice I'm getting but it's still not working for me. I am getting impatient though and know that'll never improve things so I'm giving it another go with uber patience.
In your screenshot, Davis' positioning as a CM-S is precisely the kind of positioning I don't expect from the role and is another bad example of bad positioning (in my opinion). It's not what I'm used to anyway compared to how the role played on FM 15.
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I'm not sure what these static images purport to show Jimmy?
Yes, you get a clustered midfield if you use a bunch of playmakers looking to move towards the ball, and yes, you can make positioning look duff if you really want to. Yes, you can get Support Duty players on the edge of the area when attacking. I struggle to see what point you are making? You can get perfectly balanced positioning within perfectly normal formations.
You can get support duty players on the edge of the area when attacking? I don't, I just get players looking to make runs forward. I don't get balanced shapes at all when we have possession - using normal formations anyway. It's like they can't wait to bomb into the box into an offside position. And yeah, I agree with you - static screenshots don't purport much in the same way the screenshots used by anyone. I'm just showing screenshots using tactics which have been advised from this thread compared to tactics which I've created myself.
I'm not sure if your suggestion of using playmakers was aimed at me but I said I don't like using them as they all bump into one another and go towards the ball too much. I don't use any playmaker as I want players to position themselves inside the opponents defensive formation. Doesn't seem possible though.
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Methinks you need to be more patient mate, it feels to me like you dont ever give time to adapt/settle.
Well I am being impatient now because I know that even with patience, I didn't like what I was seeing. Most seem to put up with the positional play on the game so I must just be a stick in the mud.
In my Valencia save, I've been using more ideas from this thread. Counter, Standard or Control mentalities, Highly Structured, Play Narrow etc - and then all the obvious possession instructions which everyone uses. But I'm still getting silly structures with possession. These aren't isolated moments in a game either, they're happening all the time:
What's happening with the 3 CM's here?
I achieved much better shapes using my obscure formations. Not perfect but much more stable -
I'd probably use these formations more but it still doesn't stop the constant longballs out to wide players & they don't work well when we're defending our own half. I like to use "Much Wider" but I want to play through the middle to open up the opportunity for long passes to wingers, I don't want them to just hoof it to them all the time.
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I'm just at a loss with it. Nothing seems to stop these incessant throughballs out to wide players. I can't cope with all these crazy, up and down games because of constant interceptions. I had a good understanding of the game prior to this one but either I've been exposed as clueless or I still haven't found the magic instruction which'll save the day - which everyone else seems to have found.
Technically speaking, I'm a reasonable success on the game if we're talking about results. And possession wise, I average more than most who have replied to this thread with screenshots. But I like watching most of every game we play & I'm not liking what it looks like - If I use CM-S, every time they pass to a wide player then they seem to bomb forward into the penalty box more often than not when on FM 15, they used to stay positioned and offer support for a simple inside pass from the wide player. I don't like playmaker roles because they bump into other players too much and I don't like how they constantly go towards the man in-possession regardless of what side of the pitch they're on. There's so many things which are just wrong, F9 is another role I could hark on about.
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Another example of poor positioning, especially from both of my 2 CM-S running into the penalty box. This was no counter either, we built play but as soon as one of my CM's passes wide it's like they all run forward. This is from a new Valencia save where I'm actually using some of your advice but I've seen no improvement. I'm trying Defensive, Counter & Standard mentalities as per your advice -
And to add to my annoyance, my DM even joined in as play progressed -
The team aren't completely fluid with the tactic yet so I'll stick with it. But it's no change from what I've been seeing in my other save.
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Well you do. You use very fluid and control, which is a very aggressive mentality. It allows players to be more expressive and pushes them further up the pitch. It's a slightly lesser of attacking than attacking is but it's still a very attacking mentality to use. It uses a high mentality structure.
Control is a risk taking mentality structure though. That's what you expect when you use an aggressive mentality structure as the base. It seems like you've used control yet really, it seems you don't actually want this. So then the question is why did you use control strategy to begin with?
Your MC is going forward because that's what is role is. Add to this you use control strategy then you're instructing him to get forward more than usual, especially when you add in very fluid team shape too. If that's now what you want then you use the wrong team shape and the wrong mentality. You seem confused and instruct your players to play differently to what you actually want.
This screenshot isn't valid to back up the point you're trying to illustrate because you've forgot one vital point here. Saul has the tries killer balls often PPM............
This is because you aren't really set up for a possession game yourself despite thinking you are. This is very clear because you decided to go really wide in your play, which doesn't help with a possession game.
All your issues are your own fault as the TI's you use don't match the style you're trying to create.
On FM 15, Control mentality and Very Fluid played nothing like the way it does now. I often used Attacking with Very Fluid on FM 15 and still got closer to what I wanted.
I have tried almost every combination. I don't see much, if any, improvement using lower mentalities either, and it makes pressing worse as well. I disagree with your point about achieving possession football as well - I could show plenty of stills of the width used by teams in real life who dominate possession.
Anyway, If we're talking purely about possession then I've achieved possession football and average 67% of the stuff. I just dislike the way it's looking.
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Hard to say anything without whole setup but I see something there. For first picture, I generally use a F9 role without using any real runner like you. I don't know it is true or not. But I thought F9 tent to act real nine because he thinks there is nobody to leading box. So especially with creativity, he can take control himself. It is just an idea I did not try yet. But I guess it can be happen because of that. You will be welcome to correct me. For second picture, you use a playmaker in very fluid shape. He has full creativity. And I remember Saul has triess killer balls often PPM. He saw the run and play with it. It does not sure he is in offside or not.
I've tried essentially every combination. From Higher Structured, right through to Very Fluid - Fluid & Very Fluid have proved the best ones from a possession point of view. I can force us to have ridiculous possession stats through thorough searching of every mentality, player roles, formations & philosophies or whatever you want to call it. But none have proved to be the sort of possession/position game I want. It just looks messy & I bet there's lots of others who think so as well.
The main issues are not enough players are ready to block off counterattacks when play breaks down in the final third - And way to many throughballs out to wide players and even central attackers making runs forward, and it generally always results in a stoppage in play because they're always offside. Any time they run behind the opponents defence, players seem to just hoof it to them willy-nilly.
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Post your tactic and the full instructions you use.
I don't use anything which should make my CM's bomb into the penalty box and my F9 to play like a target man.
I use all the obvious possession-first TI's/PI's. I used a basic 4-3-3, Very Fluid & Control. Wide as possible rather than narrow to open up the space for the middle. No specialist roles, just standard roles all on a support duty apart from the CB's and DM who are on Defend.
Here's a screenshot -
Pardo's position isn't dreadful but after making his cross to the badly positioned F9, he'll run forward like I've been saying. There's just no sense of calm or control in the play.
And when you use playmaker roles, this is an example of the problem which happens -
I just have no idea what's going on there, but it shows the dreadful positioning I'm talking about. To add to it, one of my playmakers hoofs it forward to my F9 making runs inbehind the defence, which are always offside anyway.
I'm now resorting to obscure shapes for better possession structures - at the expense of our shape without the ball though. It still doesn't stop the constant long diagonals to wingers though & constant stoppages in play because they're always offside.
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Just because you can't do something doesn't make something impossible. There are plenty of people who can achieve the above and don't experience any of the issues you've mentioned in the above post, which means it is possible. If it's not happening for you then it's clearly something you are doing wrong. The CM support hasn't been changed in FM16 and still works the same way as on FM15. They still make late runs and pick up second balls. If it's not happening for you then you need to find out why it isn't.
Well as an example, Whether I'm doing something wrong or not shouldn't make the false 9 role play like a conventional striker - and he does for everyone else as well unless my game is broken. I very rarely see him positioned between the lines apart from isolated occasions when he'll drop off the CB's to receive a pass. Movement which is no different from the DLF.
The CM-Support role just seems different to me, they play too close to others in & around the penalty box and make too many runs forward. I don't have any setting which should make them do this. I've tried them on a defend duty but that ruins our build-up play from the back because they drop almost as deep as the defensive line rather than positioning themselves to receive forward passes into midfield.
I've tried almost every setting possible to try stopping these constant switchplays to wide players as well. The only thing which makes it less frequent is using a bunch of playmaker roles but I don't like how they play positionally.
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With the match engine as it is, it's possible to create a tactic with loads of possession but impossible to create a good position game. The false 9 role still plays like a conventional striker so I still have to resort to using my ST in the AMC position, which then makes pressing worse because I want him to play in a normal ST role when we don't have the ball. And for whatever reason, they seem to have ruined the normal CM-Support role (in my opinion). Every time play approaches the final third, the midfield presence is non-existent. On FM 15, they used to hang outside the box more and were always ready to pick up second balls if play broke down.
There's way to many switch plays at the moment to wide players - It's really annoying because it's a good thing that they've finally implemented long diagonals to wingers but it's overkill and it just results in loads more offsides & much more interceptions for opponents to counter constantly. My players barely string 5 short passes together before attempting to hit wingers - I want this to happen but I want us to create the space for wingers through our passing rather than just hitting it to them anyway. They haven't seemed to grasp the concept of using passing to open free-men, and instead just seem to instantly find them when they're not available.
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The Art of Possession Football
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
It starts with a bog standard 4-1-4-1, sometimes 4-1-2-2-1. But I change the player roles in nearly every game, sometimes the formation, depending on the opponent defensive formation.
I don't prioritise any of them 3 things above positioning. I'm trying a positional play style and possession is just the best tool to use to set out your stall/attacking shape.
I've had a really hard time getting the sort of positioning I want from the player roles available though. The main issue being the spacing between the players, especially for CM's. A simple CM-S role worked well on FM 15 but they look completely different to me on 16, they play too near the ball & run into the box too much after passing wide. Nearly every role go towards the man in-possession too much and ruin the connection between the players. I've tried all kinds of combinations and reached the conclusion that the BWM role is best for my 2 CM's ahead of the CDM because they don't follow the ball as much and position themselves between opponent lines more than other roles, but they're still not ideal. They still do these constant passes out to the fullbacks like every role does.