permanentquandary
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Posts posted by permanentquandary
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1) Do players in a mentoring group all have to be capable of playing the same position?
2) Do players in a mentoring group have to be from the same training unit? Eg can I take Hugo Loris (Model Citizen) and get him to work on mentoring with Japhet Tanganga?
3) If players are not the same social group, does that mean mentoring will have no effect, or does it mean the effect will be reduced/take longer to actualise?0 -
It's the 2022/23 season and Erling Håland is having a fantastic season with Man City. He's scored more goals than he's played games and looks odds on to finish the season that way, breaking various goalscoring records. And yet, in this moment Man City are 2nd and seem to have defensive issues at times. I think we can agree that the injury of Ruben Dias has not helped matters and the rest of their defenders are not quite on his level when it comes to defending. But then again, it seems like defenders in general are getting worse at defending as the years go by because of the increased complexity of their roles as the game develops and changes tactically. We can also say Erling Håland is not doing much at all when his team is not in possession. He is in my opinion a clear cut example of a poacher. Is that one the reasons Man City are not doing as well as they could be - he's not pressing the opposition? I'm not sold on that.
I remember thinking about all this heavy "gegenpressing" that has come into the game in recent years, with attacking players being asked to chase down defenders to win the ball back and minimise the time the opposition have on the ball, and I remember thinking this is a double edged sword. On the one hand, this approach means that the opposition may have problems building attacks or keeping the ball. If that's true, our team may not concede as many chances or goals as if they didn't bother. But if our team is too successful at denying the opposition the ball, we might end up pushing them so far back into their own half they can't get out. And then where's the space in behind? What has this got to do with Erling Håland and poachers?
I was recently thinking about how to make a lone poacher work and what effect trying to do that has on the team's approach. I think the very first thing to realise is that if you're going to use a lone poacher, you can forget about having a high line of engagement. By putting a poacher up top you're likely conceding some amount of possession of the ball to the opposition defence at least. But that doesn't have to be a problem - as I alluded to in the 2nd paragraph, it could yield a benefit. Let them have the ball a bit, let them come forward a bit, then boom, tackle/interception, transition, counter, and it's probably the poacher who finishes it and gets a goal. This is a way to generate space - which the poacher will then exploit.
But this can't work without a properly configured midfield and probably full backs too. Let's think about Man City again. How do they configure their midfield to get the best out of Erling Håland? One thing we can say with certainty is that they play with extreme fluidity. They clearly have players who have set roles and duties which is why Kevin De Bruyne is giving Erling Håland the most assists and people like Gundogan seem to make more forward runs and score more doing that than De Bruyne, but at the same time, Guardiola is telling them to switch with each other depending on the positional situation. I don't think this is achievable in FM. The tactics creator isn't sophisticated enough, particularly because there isn't a module that provides for patterns of play. So at best we can only think of each player's priority role. City use a single, relatively static defensive midfielder, while their two central midfielders are given license to roam, make forward runs, move into channels and create. At the same time, they use two wide midfielders who mostly stay wide.
What they are doing is using the wide two to stretch the opposition full backs, creating space for Erling Håland and the two central midfielders. If they can't find joy through the middle, they'll play the ball on the outside, where there will be a lot of space because the opposition have gone narrow.
To compensate for the use of a single DM, no specified ball winner and the spatial weakness in the areas either side of the central DM zone, they use inverted wingbacks.
By no means is this the only way a solo poacher can work. But it does make sense.
Going back to "why City are 'only' 2nd", I think it comes down to a lack of steel in their midfield. For all their fancy footwork, world class passing and silky movement, when City don't have the ball they are asking two central midfield players who are relatively weak at marking, positioning and tackling to win the ball back - or hoping Rodri does his thing. Remember I said something about letting the opposition have the ball a bit, then transitioning and countering? I think teams are finding it a bit too easy to get through that midfield. Guardiola is probably saying that is fine because we'll score more, we have the quality and having two central midfielders who can both cause problems in the channels and get forward or create chances is more unpredictable, more fluid, harder to defend against, and also, importantly, provides an extra source of supply for the poacher.
Anyway this is relevant because if you're going to use a solo poacher in FM and concede that you are not pressing high up the pitch as a result, you should be trying to be solid and consistent with those midfield physical battles, breaking up opposition attacks and increasing frequency of transitions. If you don't use a specialist for that role - and let's be clear, we are talking about a ball winning midfielder or someone at least instructed to perform those tasks - then you are going to concede more goals. Your midfield trio should consist of a player who stays deep, holds position, keeps things ticking over (think of Rodri) then either a ball winner or adventurous forward runner who moves into channels (think Gundogan), along with some kind of roaming playmaker (this could be a Trequartista in AMC if you play 4231).
Given that a poacher stays central and rarely deviates from his position within the confines of the width of the 18 yard box, it's really important to have one or two players moving into channels. If you want to avoid the defensive issues of doing that, you can instead set your midfield up to play the City way on one flank, but a more traditional way on the other, with the wide midfielder starting wide but coming inside. If you're not going to use an AMC, you will either have to lean towards using both CMs to get forward closer to support the poacher or one of the two roles will have to be very aggressive with an attack duty. For example a DLP(D), MEZ(A), BWM(S) combination could be very effective, but you could swap MEZ for CM(A) with move into channels on, and BWM(S) can become RPM.
All food for thought.0 -
Aside from playing more direct or vertical you can consider changing how much your team exerts effort throughout each match, conserving your energy early on. Your pressing opponent will often run out of steam, whereas your team can still have gas in the tank. If you're going to take that approach you can try to recruit and select with "keeping hold of the ball" in mind by targeting players with high balance, first touch and strength, subbing on players with high speed and dribbling later in matches. Then in general you're going to want your team to be good at moving off the ball so they make themselves available for passes.
I don't think you necessarily need to play with a high tempo. That would be counterproductive to this idea of conserving energy. I think quick transitions and direct play is often misinterpreted as higher tempo, when tempo should instead be considered as how long each player looks to keep hold of the ball and make decisions about where to play it next. Often, keeping the ball longer is going to make it hard for your team to find passing options but it's also going to draw the opposition away from their positions when they are closing down heavily. If you are playing the ball quickly, the opposition doesn't necessarily have the time to leave their positions and the balls you are playing might not be efficient - they could instead be easy simple passes that don't do anything, or they could be bad choices as a result of the player having poor decision making. So to reach quick direct transitions that are well considered and efficient, you could play with lower tempo but direct passing, and couple that with a structured shape by reducing the number of support duties you have in use.
To be very honest I have no evidence that this would work in practice on FM, but it does work in real life.0 -
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There's definitely benefits from editing roles.
The biggest one is so that you can give particular players instructions without affecting the whole team. For example play out of defence affects the whole team, but shorter passing on your goalkeeper and defensive line doesn't.
Most role and duty presets are perfectly set but not all. For example I find wingback roles close down far too much and it is a defensive liability. So I often tell them to close down less - stay in line with the centre backs and let the midfield close down. Inside forwards don't stretch the opposition enough. Stay wider changes that. Inside forward on attack doesn't close down in defence enough. So setting an inside forward on support to get further forward achieves both worlds. Box to box midfielder doesn't dribble or get forward as directly as I'd like. So I set dribble more and get further forward, and they become a far more dynamic and scary player, especially if they are good at dribbling. Just some examples.0 -
Is there any point giving your youth team or U23s tactical familiarity or is this just a waste of a training slot?
I have often felt that I don't really care if the youth team or u23 win or lose their games. As long as they get game time, that's all that matters. So maybe it's better to have them train another slot working on attributes rather than tactical familiarity? The only downside I see is that they will be clueless if you call them up to play in your first team.0 -
18 minutes ago, Aksi92 said:
I am trying to implement fast attacking direct approach with my Brentford squad. As one of favourites in league teams are defending deep and narrow against me. So because of that I cant create a lot of chances meaning I need to tweak my tactic to create more space for my players.
Here is the tactic I am currently using
Should I add TI playing wider? Be more expressive? Maybe AP instead of Mezzala? Carrilero instead of BBM? I need some help.
If you want a fast attacking direct approach it would make a lot of sense to use an Attacking mentality, then remove the Higher Tempo. If you're concerned that this creates too much risk taking, you can tweak individual players to take fewer risks and/or tell the team to Be More Disciplined and/or reduce their passing length.
If you want to create chances against busparkers you're going to have to either use players that stay wider on AML/R or aren't hardcoded to cut inside. You need to stretch the width of the opposition defence and inside forwards left untouched won't do that. While wingbacks will get up the park and be wide options, their arrival will be relatively late and typically will happen by the time the opposition has regrouped.
You're using an F9, so you do need players to run into that space he vacates and will therefore need midfield, full back or AML/R runners and appropriate roles. But consider if that role is really suited to the style you want. If you're playing direct, it makes more sense to have your striker be a target ready to receive the ball in forward areas. When he drops off so extremely as the F9, there isn't a simple direct ball to play unless it's to the AML/R. But considering that you'll want these two players tracking back, you're really going to struggle to counter attack effectively unless the striker picks up the ball from a deep position and is the one releasing it into space. Perhaps really you want a complete forward, deep lying forward, pressing forward on support, or target man. If you're really heavily set on using a wide player as your main penetrator, consider using a Raumdeuter or Trequartista because he won't track back as much as the others.
I won't comment yet on other roles and duties or potential T/PIs but this is food for thought.0 -
Lower tempo, dribble less, shorter passing are a good start. Off the ball it's a good idea to press the opposition more urgently and playing with a higher defensive line and line of engagement will also help (but this could also hurt your chance creation and open you up to counter attacks if your players cannot sustain this press).
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May seem counter-intuitive, but take off work ball into box and play out of defence then add dribble less. Work ball into box cuts your penetration significantly. Play out of defence reduces your tempo further, so that the opposition always have time to regroup thereby reducing the space in behind - and you already have lower tempo. Dribble less makes sense because dribbling players don't keep the ball as well as passing players and you want to "walk the ball in" with this style, but on the other hand, some goals may not be scored because your players don't run at defenders and stretch their shape. Maybe that is a price worth paying if most of the time these dribbles don't pay off.
You can also try to add gets further forward to your inside forwards so they track back but still make forward runs during transitions so you have more options in the box.
You could also consider pulling your midfield duo into DM to control play from deeper and give your AP more space.
Consider either changing the DLP to CM(D) or (S) with hold position, or changing the AP to AM.
Consider changing an inside forward to a winger to stretch the opposition wider to make space for other players and allow one full back to stay deeper. On one flank FB(A), IF(S), on the other FB(S), W(A), or keep both AML/R on support and put the FB(A) on the flank of the holding midfielder.
Finally, consider playing a FB roles rather than WB. They will keep the ball better and are more defensively solid, primarily because they don't close down as much. They will still overlap if you give them a gets further forward instruction or attack duty.2 -
What I notice about training in FM19/20 is that most sessions don't allow the players to work on their role training.
Should I take it to mean that 1) those sessions that don't specifically state "20% Priority>Individual Roles" for specific training units don't allow any role training in that period?
Or is it a case of 2) how it used to be with the general team training slider in FM18 and prior, something like 10-60% of the time in general training depending on the slider, the rest of the time spent on individual training regardless of the general training?
By the way, if scenario 1) applies, if you look at all the sessions, it's worth noticing that the Attacking unit only gets role training if you set Goalkeeping, specific Goalkeeping or Aerial/Ground defence sessions, and the Defending unit only gets role training if you assign Chance Creation, Chance Conversion, general Goalkeeping or specific Goalkeeping sessions.
If scenario 1) applies, then if those aforementioned sessions are assigned, only 20% of the time is spent devoted to the role training during those periods.
I wonder if there is a way for role training to carry more weight?
The reason I want my players to focus on their roles is so that they can acquire the maximum gains in the key attributes for their roles.
Anyway, here is a schedule I designed to try to get the most out of role training. Will I see more fine tuned gains this way?
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2 hours ago, mouli said:
But if I remove play out of defence then during goalkicks the CBs won't split wide and full backs won't push up and a DM won't drop in, am I correct? Because as I said I want to build from the back. Is there any other way I could play from back without the play out of defence TI?
I don't know if they will stop doing all that fancy movement but if you set your goalkeeper and defensive line to make shorter passes (and use CD roles in DCL/R) you'll get higher ball possession without affecting the rest of the team.
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1 hour ago, Bunkerossian said:
Combination of the suitability circle and looking at things like preferred foot and attributes. I suppose my main issue is that I don't believe in tactical consistency enough to force my 25-man roster to play in a formation that's always the same.
I think realism is one thing, but being unable to score from a header for entire games really kills my plan. Yes, I was looking to score a large portion of goals from set pieces. I wanted to be able to count on them to pull me out of bad situations, or force a win when open play cannot get the job done. I have a striker who won't be dribbling his way past defenders, but can beat them in the air. So, I am looking for tips on crossing or improving the quality of headers.
What you don't seem to notice is that Gomez is also very good with back to goal and the ball played into his feet. He has 15 touch, 17 off the ball, 17 strength and 16 balance. He's not quick, but he's great at holding up the ball and he's great at dropping off defenders to receive the ball to his feet. He might lack agility to turn and play balls in behind himself, but he only needs to lay off the ball to a midfielder who will ping the ball into the space Gomez created for there to be a goalscoring opportunity. He's good as a pressing forward or as a deep lying forward, not just a target man.
So you don't need to rely purely on headers to win.0 -
Unlike in pre-mentoring FMs, you have to have u19s/u23s in same squad as first team to mentor an u19/u23 player. Personally I find that tedious and inconvenient, but bottom line, it means we have to move players to first team and mentor and make them available for whatever non-competitive football.
This does have negative implications:
1) your first team coaches will have a greater workload
2) the youngsters won't get as much physical training because this is not typically scheduled between competitive matches; physical training happens mostly in preseason
3) your squad list will be more untidy (i think future FMs need a filter out for players NOT in match squad and/or a filter out for players on youth contracts and/or a filter out for players aged 18 or under)
On the other hand, if you let them train in your youth team or u23s on seperate general training schedules with different coaches,
1) the coaches will be probably worse unless you have a high staff quota and can attract high quality staff for those teams
2) the younger players will be unlikely to have good personalities or determination to pass on during mentoring (usually you see a lot of Balanced which is not good enough)0 -
I'm managing Troyes on FM20.
First season, top scoring team in the league, more than half way through the season.
Vast majority of goals are scored from headers and we have scored more headed goals than anyone by miles.
I'm playing using a 442 with a target man on support, a wide midfielder on attack and a winger on support. Inverted wingbacks.1 -
A combo of:
Dribble Less
Lower Tempo
usually does the trick for possession.
Have you considered using an IWB on DR slot? Winger stays wide, so IWB comes inside. That will add to more ball possession. I find the support duty tends to sit on top of other players too much. IWB(D) may cover in DB for the HB(D) who slots into the back line, IWB(A) will surge ahead of the AP and BBM at times or arrive late into the box but overall by a big help in possession of the ball whatever duty you choose.0 -
On 25/07/2020 at 23:49, Experienced Defender said:
Given that I don't know your players, I can only comment on the tactic.
As for the IWB role, it absolutely makes sense in a formation such as the wide diamond. But be careful because the IWB is a more demanding role than a standard WB (let alone FB), so you need to make sure you have the right player(s) for it.
On the other hand, what I see as potentially problematic in this particular setup is the enganche. It's a fairly static playmaker role, which basically means 2 things:
1. it's more suitable for patient possession-based setups (except perhaps if you have a certain type of player whose traits might modify the role's basic hard-coded behavior)
2. it needs a lot of support from teammates in terms of available passing options around him
Now, your overall tactic neither looks like being possession-oriented (except for using 2 PM roles) nor do I see proper support for the enganche (due to wingers on both flanks coupled with the wide attacking width). Because defensive wingers are a simple role that looks to win the ball on the flank and then launch a quick early cross, which can be suitable for a hoofball style or some hybrid between wing-play and direct counter. But those styles basically require an aggressive runner in the AMC slot, which the enganche is definitely not.
On the other hand, I've seen a number of tactics that work in FM even though in theory they do have flaws. Therefore, if you have tested the tactic and it works as you want it to, then please ignore my remarks and stick with it
I basically chose Enganche because of the flawed Bielsa inspiration. The other reason is that my team has many players of only average pace and acceleration (10-12) with low flair and dribbling. I don't expect them to go past anyone. So I thought it would be better to adopt a pass and move style.
I have two very good full backs who as good as my centre mids on the ball so I may as well use IWBs. My forwards work reasonably hard and are good in the air.
But overall it's just a template. I am open to any and all changes that incorporate the IWBs and a possession-focused style that's solid defensively more or less by being solid offensively.0 -
Just a rough idea and my opinion
Model Citizen>Model Pro>Pro>Resolute>Perfectionist>Very Ambitious>Ambitious>Iron Willed>Resilient>Driven>Leader>Determined>Spirited>Light Hearted>Jovial>Fairly Determined>Balanced>the rest like loyal, low determination, fickle etc1 -
I'm managing Troyes and I've been having mixed results with a flat 442, scoring the most in the league but also conceding heavily. Since I didn't know what I could do to change defensively apart from get new players I decided to take some inspiration from Bielsa and try a 442 wide diamond with inverted wingbacks.
I've tested this tactic in just one game on a Balanced mentality and a few different TIs that the screenshot doesn't have. It had very high possession but low shots. Things improved when I increased mentality, defensive line and directness. So I amended it. The game finished 1-1 and my goal came from a penalty but I noticed the (equal strength) opposition had very few shots on my goal. My team are favourites to reach the playoffs this season but I notice that in this division all the teams are very similar in quality with a few exceptions who should be in the higher division.This is my template. Feel free to give advice or input. I'm already guessing I need my AMC on attack duty. I was considering using a halfback as well because both inverted wingbacks would cover the central space very well.
PIs as follows:
MR: Get further forward
DL: Get further forward
DCL: Stay wider
DCR: Stay wider
I should mention my strikers can definitely play as Target Man or Deep Lying Forward or (slow) Poacher, but most of my team is slow and I notice they are really struggling to get behind opposition defences.
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2 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:
No. You are right. I actually spotted that and changed it myself, but I haven't uploaded the edited tactic yet.
I have changed to positive and removed either play out of defense or distribute to fb/cb.
Also, as per previous advice, I will try a BBM instead of Mez
By the way if you feel like the BBM is not giving you enough threat in the final third, try selecting the Get Further Forward PI.
I find that often it's better to play support duties but tell players you would have normally given attack duties to get further forward. That way they take less risks on the ball, are more available for passes and drag defenders away from their positions but they will also make selective runs in behind.0 -
Defending corners I like to go 3 zonal markers on the 6 yard box, near middle and far. That way I've got 3 guys positioned covering the most dangerous areas.
I'll have both posts marked, usually by players who are weak in the air because I want my best aerial players in the box. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the ball hacked off the line by one of these players. But I have seen it happen and they did stop certain goals.
One or two will man mark and one or two will go back. The man markers pick up the box runners and the guys going back are just bodies waiting to spring the counter.
I'll have 1 man to stay forward. This is to counter attack and also to keep the opponent honest.
1 man on edge of area. He supplies the forward man and closes down anybody on edge of the box.0 -
Many players claim that training a lot of physical sessions will help your players become match fit and maintain fitness during the season.
My experience is that this routine leads to much higher frequency of injuries.
On the other hand, if you don't train physical sessions now, there won't be many opportunities during the season unless you play in a nation with a low number of teams and competitions.
Perhaps the answer is to alternate between training physical sessions or match practice followed by recovery sessions and match preparation sessions.
For example:
Day 1
Match Tactics
Physical
Recovery
Day 2
Match Tactics
Tactical
Teamwork
Day 3
Match Tactics
Match Practice
Recovery
Day 4
Match Tactics
Tactical
Team Bonding
Another way to go:
The day after any match:
Recovery
Rest
Something low intensity like Goalkeepers/Set Pieces
2 days after match don't do a physical session, but 3 days after that, a high intensity session
This way you crescendo your high intensity sessions to minimise injury and maximise recovery between matches and physical sessions.
If you look at the descriptions for each session you'll see that Match Practice and any type of Physical session says "Greatly Increased" for injuries.0 -
IMO a BWM should only be employed with another holding midfielder such as a DLP, CM(D) or CM(S) given a hold position instruction.
In a flat 4 midfield in a 442, BWM(D), DLP(S) works. Both hold position and DLP can cover for BWM's adventurous closing down.
In a trio with a DM, I don't think BWM(D) is appropriate in DM. Here you play an Anchor Man, Half Back, Defensive Midfielder (D/S) or DLP(D/S). But you could then play a BWM(S) on support in one of the MC slots in the trio. That would be far more stable.
If you play a 4231 or 4411, the midfield 2 containing a BWM(D) can both be on defend duty to allow the wide players, AMC and STC to go and attack, as well as at least one full back.
If you play a flat midfield 3 such as in a 4312 narrow, any BWM should be on the MCL or MCR slot on support, and then the MC player should have a hold position instruction, preferably on a defend duty.0 -
The best advice I can give you is that you need to think about space a lot. In order to create chances you need it, and if you park the bus except it's in the opponent's 18 yard box rather than yours, then you have no space to attack.
It's too aggressive and needs many more support duties and generally dialling back. Let the opposition have the ball sometimes, because when you are the better team that's how you create chances!0
What changed since '18?
in Football Manager General Discussion
Posted · Edited by permanentquandary
Another change is Mentoring. FM18 marked the end of the Tutoring era. No longer can one hoover up the world's elder high determination Model Professionals and set them to mould your wonderkids into refined upstanding characters. In those days, the worst that could happen is the tutoring gets cut short because the players fell out with one another. And in those days, you could tutor a kid in the U18s with a first team player. Now, you have to move the U18 player into the first team in order for them to be mentored. In those days, you could sign anyone solely for the purpose of being tutors, with the intention that they never kick a ball for you in matches. As long as they had a higher reputation and squad status and shared positional familiarity, the tutoring was good to go. Now, they won't be able to mentor anyone because their standing in the social hierarchy of the squad will be too low. The Hierarchy system will cause you to sell or release players purely because their personality and social status in the group is too weak or strong.
The criteria for transferring personalities in the new mentoring system is much higher and even less well explained. There's a lot of guesswork and it doesn't help that the UI for it is dreadful. The mentoring screen gives no indication of your individual personalities of every player in your team - you have to access the Squad panel and create a custom personality view for that - then flick between the two as you decide who to pick as mentors and who should be mentored by them. It's a disaster. You will be sat there flicking back and forth faffing about with that poxy Add Players drop down box for hours seeing whether or not the mentoring will be predicted to have any effect.
If your team is all Balanced personality, good luck seeing any major development in training until you replace the lot of them. FM18 was the last FM where that is not necessary.
All of this is why I stuck with FM18 after buying 19, 20, 21 and 22. The match engine for 18 was superior to 19 and 20 and it was also the last FM where you could configure Team Shape between the range of Highly Structured and Very Fluid.